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[LQX]

Er...It's been like this since the beginning, dude...The only change now is that rebels fight back.

There is a difference now in that they seem to be directly backing up the rebels by taken out targets ahead of them. That's very different from the mission a few days. They're essentially providing air support for one side.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

There is a difference now in that they seem to be directly backing up the rebels by taken out targets ahead of them. That's very different from the mission a few days. They're essentially providing air support for one side.

"All necessary measures."

They've been bombing Gaddafi's forces ever since the first night when French planes took out an armored column advancing on Benghazi. They haven't let up since.

 

[RustyNails]

There is a difference now in that they seem to be directly backing up the rebels by taken out targets ahead of them. That's very different from the mission a few days. They're essentially providing air support for one side.

Tell us how this changed from few days ago.

 

[SolKane]

Richard Lugar Questions U.S. Costs Of Libya Conflict, from Huffington post:

Administration officials are not planning on asking Congress for a supplemental bill to pay for the military intervention in Libya, which National Journal estimated cost more than $100 million in Tomahawk missiles alone in its first day. "The operation in Libya is being funded with existing resources at this point. We are not planning to request a supplemental at this time," Office of Management and Budget spokesman Kenneth Baer said Monday.

In an interview with Jake Tapper on ABC's "This Week," Defense Secretary Robert Gates refused to estimate the length of the U.S. commitment in Libya. When asked by Tapper whether American troops would be withdrawn by the end of the year, Gates responded, "I don't think anybody knows the answer to that."

....

But Lugar questioned whether the money being spent on military operations in Libya would be better spent elsewhere.

"Estimates are that about $1 billion has already been spent on an undeclared war in Libya, some would say only hundreds of millions, and that that will diminish in the days ahead," Lugar said. "But [who] knows how long this goes on? And furthermore, who has really budgeted for Libya at all? I have not really heard the administration come forward saying that, 'We're going to have to devote these funds, folks, and therefore it's something else we'll have to go or it simply adds to the deficit.'"

More on cost, and its relation to the defense budget:

The ultimate total that the United States spends will hinge on the length and scope of the strikes as well as on the contributions of its coalition allies. But Todd Harrison, a senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, said on Monday that the U.S. costs could “easily pass the $1 billion mark on this operation, regardless of how well things go.”

...

However, there comes a point when there simply isn’t enough cash to pay for everything. The White House said on Monday it was not prepared to request emergency funding yet, but former Pentagon comptroller Dov Zakheim estimated that the Defense Department would need to send a request for supplemental funding to Capitol Hill if the U.S. military’s share of Libya operations expenses tops $1 billion.

"The operation in Libya is being funded with existing resources at this point. We are not planning to request a supplemental at this time," said Kenneth Baer, a spokesman for the Office of Management and Budget.

...

Meanwhile, Harrison initially estimated that maintaining a coastal no-fly zone after those initial strikes would cost in the range of $30 million to $100 million per week. If the coalition continues to strike ground targets, the weekly costs would be closer to the higher range, he said.

These unanticipated costs come at a time when the Pentagon is putting pressure on Capitol Hill to pass its fiscal 2011 budget. Continuing to operate under a stopgap continuing resolution through September, senior Defense officials argue, would amount to a $23 billion cut to the military’s request for the current fiscal year, which began October 1. The Pentagon wants $708.3 billion for this year, including $159.3 billion for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

For the U.S. military, the highest costs of the operations over Libya come in the form of pricey munitions, fuel for aircraft, and combat pay for deployed troops -- all factors that will pile up each day U.S. forces remain at the helm of the operation.

On the first day of strikes alone, U.S.-led forces launched 112 long-range Tomahawk cruise missiles, which cost about $1 million to $1.5 million apiece, from ships stationed off the Libyan coast. That totaled $112 million to $168 million. Since those first strikes, U.S. and British forces have launched at least another 12 Tomahawk missiles.

...

Ultimately, the length and scale of the operation -- and of the U.S. role in it -- will be key to how much it costs. A weeklong operation involving a limited number of U.S. troops would be manageable within the existing defense budget. But if Odyssey Dawn drags on for weeks and months, the Pentagon would likely have to do some maneuvering to replenish its accounts.

http://nationaljournal.com/national...a-operation-already-piling-up-20110321?page=1

 

[LQX]

Tell us how this changed from few days ago.

Well much of the talk a few days ago was on taking out the Libyan defenses so they cant attack civilians and to ensure a safe fly zone. It has shifted to completely to destroying Gaddai's military as he is no longer attacking civilians. The UN resolution was for a no fly zone, not for providing air support to rebel forces.

 

[empty vessel]

"All necessary measures."

They've been bombing Gaddafi's forces ever since the first night when French planes took out an armored column advancing on Benghazi. They haven't let up since.

That doesn't mean it is authorized.

"Acting under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations,

1. Demands the immediate establishment of a ceasefire and a complete end to violence and all attacks against, and abuses of, civilians;

2. Stresses the need to intensify efforts to find a solution to the crisis which responds to the legitimate demands of the Libyan people and notes the decisions of the Secretary-General to send his Special Envoy to Libya and of the Peace and Security Council of the African Union to send its ad hoc High-Level Committee to Libya with the aim of facilitating dialogue to lead to the political reforms necessary to find a peaceful and sustainable solution;

3. Demands that the Libyan authorities comply with their obligations under international law, including international humanitarian law, human rights and refugee law and take all measures to protect civilians and meet their basic needs, and to ensure the rapid and unimpeded passage of humanitarian assistance;

Note that these are demands, but not authorizations for action by Member States. Those follow, here:

Protection of civilians

4. Authorizes Member States that have notified the Secretary-General, acting nationally or through regional organizations or arrangements, and acting in cooperation with the Secretary-General, to take all necessary measures, notwithstanding paragraph 9 of resolution 1970 (2011), to protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, including Benghazi, while excluding a foreign occupation force of any form on any part of Libyan territory, and requests the Member States concerned to inform the Secretary-General immediately of the measures they take pursuant to the authorization conferred by this paragraph which shall be immediately reported to the Security Council;

5. Recognizes the important role of the League of Arab States in matters relating to the maintenance of international peace and security in the region, and bearing in mind Chapter VIII of the Charter of the United Nations, requests the Member States of the League of Arab States to cooperate with other Member States in the implementation of paragraph 4;

No-fly zone
6. Decides to establish a ban on all flights in the airspace of the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya in order to help protect civilians;

7. Decides further that the ban imposed by paragraph 6 shall not apply to flights whose sole purpose is humanitarian, such as delivering or facilitating the delivery of assistance, including medical supplies, food, humanitarian workers and related assistance, or evacuating foreign nationals from the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, nor shall it apply to flights authorised by paragraphs 4 or 8, nor other flights which are deemed necessary by States acting under the authorization conferred in paragraph 8 to be for the benefit of the Libyan people, and that these flights shall be coordinated with any mechanism established under paragraph 8;

8. Authorizes Member States that have notified the Secretary-General and the Secretary-General of the League of Arab States, acting nationally or through regional organizations or arrangements, to take all necessary measures to enforce compliance with the ban on flights imposed by paragraph 6 above, as necessary, and requests the States concerned in cooperation with the League of Arab States to coordinate closely with the Secretary General on the measures they are taking to implement this ban, including by establishing an appropriate mechanism for implementing the provisions of paragraphs 6 and 7 above,

9. Calls upon all Member States, acting nationally or through regional organizations or arrangements, to provide assistance, including any necessary overflight approvals, for the purposes of implementing paragraphs 4, 6, 7 and 8 above;

10. Requests the Member States concerned to coordinate closely with each other and the Secretary-General on the measures they are taking to implement paragraphs 4, 6, 7 and 8 above, including practical measures for the monitoring and approval of authorised humanitarian or evacuation flights;

11. Decides that the Member States concerned shall inform the Secretary-General and the Secretary-General of the League of Arab States immediately of measures taken in exercise of the authority conferred by paragraph 8 above, including to supply a concept of operations;

12. Requests the Secretary-General to inform the Council immediately of any actions taken by the Member States concerned in exercise of the authority conferred by paragraph 8 above and to report to the Council within 7 days and every month thereafter on the implementation of this resolution, including information on any violations of the flight ban imposed by paragraph 6 above;

Enforcement of the arms embargo
13. Decides that paragraph 11 of resolution 1970 (2011) shall be replaced by the following paragraph : "Calls upon all Member States, in particular States of the region, acting nationally or through regional organisations or arrangements, in order to ensure strict implementation of the arms embargo established by paragraphs 9 and 10 of resolution 1970 (2011), to inspect in their territory, including seaports and airports, and on the high seas, vessels and aircraft bound to or from the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, if the State concerned has information that provides reasonable grounds to believe that the cargo contains items the supply, sale, transfer or export of which is prohibited by paragraphs 9 or 10 of resolution 1970 (2011) as modified by this resolution, including the provision of armed mercenary personnel, calls upon all flag States of such vessels and aircraft to cooperate with such inspections and authorises Member States to use all measures commensurate to the specific circumstances to carry out such inspections";

14. Requests Member States which are taking action under paragraph 13 above on the high seas to coordinate closely with each other and the Secretary-General and further requests the States concerned to inform the Secretary-General and the Committee established pursuant to paragraph 24 of resolution 1970 (2011) ("the Committee") immediately of measures taken in the exercise of the authority conferred by paragraph 13 above;

15. Requires any Member State whether acting nationally or through regional organisations or arrangements, when it undertakes an inspection pursuant to paragraph 13 above, to submit promptly an initial written report to the Committee containing, in particular, explanation of the grounds for the inspection, the results of such inspection, and whether or not cooperation was provided, and, if prohibited items for transfer are found, further requires such Member States to submit to the Committee, at a later stage, a subsequent written report containing relevant details on the inspection, seizure, and disposal, and relevant details of the transfer, including a description of the items, their origin and intended destination, if this information is not in the initial report;

16. Deplores the continuing flows of mercenaries into the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya and calls upon all Member States to comply strictly with their obligations under paragraph 9 of resolution 1970 (2011) to prevent the provision of armed mercenary personnel to the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya;

Ban on flights
17. Decides that all States shall deny permission to any aircraft registered in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya or owned or operated by Libyan nationals or companies to take off from, land in or overfly their territory unless the particular flight has been approved in advance by the Committee, or in the case of an emergency landing;

18. Decides that all States shall deny permission to any aircraft to take off from, land in or overfly their territory, if they have information that provides reasonable grounds to believe that the aircraft contains items the supply, sale, transfer, or export of which is prohibited by paragraphs 9 and 10 of resolution 1970 (2011) as modified by this resolution, including the provision of armed mercenary personnel, except in the case of an emergency landing;

Asset freeze
19. Decides that the asset freeze imposed by paragraph 17, 19, 20 and 21 of resolution 1970 (2011) shall apply to all funds, other financial assets and economic resources which are on their territories, which are owned or controlled, directly or indirectly, by the Libyan authorities, as designated by the Committee, or by individuals or entities acting on their behalf or at their direction, or by entities owned or controlled by them, as designated by the Committee, and decides further that all States shall ensure that any funds, financial assets or economic resources are prevented from being made available by their nationals or by any individuals or entities within their territories, to or for the benefit of the Libyan authorities, as designated by the Committee, or individuals or entities acting on their behalf or at their direction, or entities owned or controlled by them, as designated by the Committee, and directs the Committee to designate such Libyan authorities, individuals or entities within 30 days of the date of the adoption of this resolution and as appropriate thereafter;

20. Affirms its determination to ensure that assets frozen pursuant to paragraph 17 of resolution 1970 (2011) shall, at a later stage, as soon as possible be made available to and for the benefit of the people of the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya;

21. Decides that all States shall require their nationals, persons subject to their jurisdiction and firms incorporated in their territory or subject to their jurisdiction to exercise vigilance when doing business with entities incorporated in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya or subject to its jurisdiction, and any individuals or entities acting on their behalf or at their direction, and entities owned or controlled by them, if the States have information that provides reasonable grounds to believe that such business could contribute to violence and use of force against civilians;

Designations
22. Decides that the individuals listed in Annex I shall be subject to the travel restrictions imposed in paragraphs 15 and 16 of resolution 1970 (2011), and decides further that the individuals and entities listed in Annex II shall be subject to the asset freeze imposed in paragraphs 17, 19, 20 and 21 of resolution 1970 (2011);

23. Decides that the measures specified in paragraphs 15, 16, 17, 19, 20 and 21 of resolution 1970 (2011) shall apply also to individuals and entities determined by the Council or the Committee to have violated the provisions of resolution 1970 (2011), particularly paragraphs 9 and 10 thereof, or to have assisted others in doing so;

Panel of Experts
24. Requests the Secretary-General to create for an initial period of one year, in consultation with the Committee, a group of up to eight experts ("Panel of Experts"), under the direction of the Committee to carry out the following tasks:

(a) Assist the Committee in carrying out its mandate as specified in paragraph 24 of resolution 1970 (2011) and this resolution;

(b) Gather, examine and analyse information from States, relevant United Nations bodies, regional organisations and other interested parties regarding the implementation of the measures decided in resolution 1970 (2011) and this resolution, in particular incidents of non-compliance;

(c) Make recommendations on actions the Council, or the Committee or State, may consider to improve implementation of the relevant measures;

(d) Provide to the Council an interim report on its work no later than 90 days after the Panel's appointment, and a final report to the Council no later than 30 days prior to the termination of its mandate with its findings and recommendations;

25. Urges all States, relevant United Nations bodies and other interested parties, to cooperate fully with the Committee and the Panel of Experts, in particular by supplying any information at their disposal on the implementation of the measures decided in resolution 1970 (2011) and this resolution, in particular incidents of non-compliance;

26. Decides that the mandate of the Committee as set out in paragraph 24 of resolution 1970 (2011) shall also apply to the measures decided in this resolution;

27. Decides that all States, including the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, shall take the necessary measures to ensure that no claim shall lie at the instance of the Libyan authorities, or of any person or body in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, or of any person claiming through or for the benefit of any such person or body, in connection with any contract or other transaction where its performance was affected by reason of the measures taken by the Security Council in resolution 1970 (2011), this resolution and related resolutions;

28. Reaffirms its intention to keep the actions of the Libyan authorities under continuous review and underlines its readiness to review at any time the measures imposed by this resolution and resolution 1970 (2011), including by strengthening, suspending or lifting those measures, as appropriate, based on compliance by the Libyan authorities with this resolution and resolution 1970 (2011);

29. Decides to remain actively seized of the matter."

One should note that armed rebels are not "civilians" within meaning of the resolution (nor the meaning under which the action was presented to the domestic populations of various Members States, i.e., as a humanitarian mission to protect against a slaughter of civilians in Benghazi). "All necessary measures" does not expand the purposes of the resolution. It means that any measures can be taken, but to be lawful those measures must be intended to accomplish the purposes set out in the resolution, which, relevant to activities in Libya, are:

(1) "to protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack" in Libya;
(2) "to enforce compliance with the ban on flights" in Libya;
(3) "to provide assistance, including any necessary overflight approvals, for the purposes of implementing" protection of civilians and a no fly zone.

That's all that is authorized by the resolution. To the extent that Member States are providing air cover for rebel advancement on Tripoli, they are in violation of the resolution (and committing unlawful acts of aggression against Libya).

Now, maybe one supports that and maybe one doesn't support it. But without regard to merit, we need at least to understand and admit its illegality under international law.

 

[HawksEye]

So far the air strikes are only attacking Gaddafi's heavy vehicles around cities across the country, he had most of his troops around Ajdabya and they got hit hard because they were shelling the city (they never managed to enter it because the rebels were inside).

After that they retreated all the way to Sirt, leaving their heavy equipment behind. So no they are not providing air support but its the fact Gaddafi positioned his troops around cities.

 

[Roude Leiw]

Richard Lugar Questions U.S. Costs Of Libya Conflict, from Huffington post:



More on cost, and its relation to the defense budget:



http://nationaljournal.com/national...a-operation-already-piling-up-20110321?page=1

the us and europe will get some nice oil deals so it will pay off.

 

[HawksEye]

Dirty Gaddafi tactics:

Libya govt says rebels attack "peace convoy"

Turns out it was an Ambush attempt:

Sky News reporter was there when it happened (Youtube)

 

[Psychotext]

the us and europe will get some nice oil deals so it will pay off.

Why do people keep saying this? Europe (can't speak for the US) already had some spectacular oil deals from Gaddafi.

 

[Reneledarker]

Why do people keep saying this? Europe (can't speak for the US) already had some spectacular oil deals from Gaddafi.

That's true, but no one trusted Gaddafi as a stable leader, unlike other authoritarian leaders of the region. Just read a little about the history of Gaddafi, guy like to go from one band to another, he's just looking to survive.

 

[RustyNails]

Anyone see Nic Robertson's question to Moussa Ibrahim (govt spokesperson) about the woman who was bundled and dragged away? Moussa shamelessly turns the blame on western media for exploiting this poor woman and her family, AND the reason why they dont want media to talk to her is because they want to protect her honor and privacy. I now believe that Gaddafi supporters are absolutely brainwashed.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

The situation in Misrata is apparently very bad. Gaddafi is determined to crush the resistance in that city because if he can take Misrata and hold Sirte he will maintain control over a heavily populated chunk of Western Libya. Then, I would assume, it would be bargaining time.

Very graphic video of children in Misrata who were victims of Gaddafi's shelling.

Sirte must fall.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

Holy shit? Al-Jazeera is reporting that the rebels have taken Sirte. Just yesterday foreign journalists got to see it and it was packed with Gaddafi forces. Did they all just bug out overnight?

If this is true then nothing stands between the rebels and Misrata now. After Misrata comes Tripoli itself.

 

[HawksEye]

I hope it is not one of Gaddafi's ambush tactics

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

I hope it is not one of Gaddafi's ambush tactics

Pretty sure that the eyes in the sky would see that coming and do something about it.

 

[AlimNassor]

If true then this is almost over. Still...lots of small towns still loyal to Gaddafi and Tripoli is still packed with soldiers and civilians willing to fight.

 

[makingmusic476]

Hopefully we'll get some confirmation about this soon. Some pictures would also be nice.

 

[Al-ibn Kermit]

I switched to news channels to see something about this and all they have is pop culture interviews and to catch a predator, plus that cnn thing about muslim neighbors.

And that video with the children's bodies was really hard to watch, I just wish we could get some more context on why they chose to bomb that house.

 

[GaimeGuy]

I switched to news channels to see something about this and all they have is pop culture interviews and to catch a predator, plus that cnn thing about muslim neighbors.

What? you can't expect them to cover news on the weekend! And at this hour! That's ridiculous!

(We have no news networks in this country :/)

 

[7aged]

Holy shit? Al-Jazeera is reporting that the rebels have taken Sirte. Just yesterday foreign journalists got to see it and it was packed with Gaddafi forces. Did they all just bug out overnight?

If this is true then nothing stands between the rebels and Misrata now. After Misrata comes Tripoli itself.

That would be unbelievable. Shatters my prediction that Sirte would be where Qhaddafi would hole up for a last stand.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

The convoy leaving Sirte yesterday probably really was the military just bugging out. It's hard to imagine what the Gaddafi gameplan is right now. It's like he's staking everything on fortifying Tripoli alone.

He must have some sort of plan, it's just hard to imagine what it could possibly be.

 

[RustyNails]

Rebels offer funeral prayer for their fallen comrade at the outskirts of Ras Lanuf.

 

[nubbe]

Well, if the rebels try to assault Tripoli they are subject for aerial attacks too since they put civilians at danger.

So we have reached a stalemate

 

[Clevinger]

Holy shit? Al-Jazeera is reporting that the rebels have taken Sirte. Just yesterday foreign journalists got to see it and it was packed with Gaddafi forces. Did they all just bug out overnight?

If this is true then nothing stands between the rebels and Misrata now. After Misrata comes Tripoli itself.

There are a lot of sources saying this is BS now.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

Well, if the rebels try to assault Tripoli they are subject for aerial attacks too since they put civilians at danger.

When the front lines reach Tripoli I think you can expect to see the population rise up against Gaddafi again as indeed they have tried to do before. The rebels have never deliberately attacked civilians. You're dreaming if you think the allies would bomb the rebels.

There are a lot of sources saying this is BS now.

All I've seen was that one Reuters report which said that the town was virtually deserted but still in government hands. Either way it seems clear that Gaddafi is not going to be making his stand there.

edit: Seems like it was indeed premature. Whether or not the town is still stuffed with forces is up for debate, but apparently they have filled the area with mines.

10:14am
The opposition forces at Nofilia are advancing towards an area called the Red Valley, but having found it to be full of mines, they are now retreating and will attempt to clean the area.

10:18am
AFP reports that opposition fighters have been halted about 140km east of Sirte.

10:54am
Reuters reports that a "steady stream of [opposition fighters] in 4x4 pick-ups mounted with machineguns" has been seen heading towards Sirte.

"We heard from Benghazi that the rebels are in Sirte, but it is not for sure because Gaddafi's soldiers are firing rockets from Sirte," Mohamed, a 23-year-old fighter, told Reuters.

10:59am
An account from an opposition fighter in Wadi al Ahmar [the Red Valley], 90-100km east of Sirte, indicates that pro-Gaddafi forces are "beyond the hills" of the valley.

He said that typically fighters will send scout teams up to 10km ahead of the main opposition force. The scouts will then report back to their commanders with the main force.

Now that I think about it, there's really nothing that the rebels or the coalition can do about landmines. This could get ugly.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

Russian Foreign Minister says: "Intervention by coalition not sanctioned by resolution 1973". He says it is essentially a civil war between two factions. This is a question I've been asking and others have remarked about: the resolution is based on "protecting civilians", so does that mean the rebels with military hardware are considered civilians or do people believe the helping of the rebels is an unintentional by product of defending civilians? Everything I've personally come across pictures the coalition as ground support for the rebels. The Russians are certainly disagreeing and see this as an attempt to specifically overthrow Gaddafi with humanitarian needs being used as a justification. BS or true?

 

[GaimeGuy]

Russian Foreign Minister says: "Intervention by coalition not sanctioned by resolution 1973". He says it is essentially a civil war between two factions. This is a question I've been asking and others have remarked about: the resolution is based on "protecting civilians", so does that mean the rebels with military hardware are considered civilians or do people believe the helping of the rebels is an unintentional by product of defending civilians? Everything I've personally come across pictures the coalition as ground support for the rebels. The Russians are certainly disagreeing and see this as an attempt to specifically overthrow Gaddafi with humanitarian needs being used as a justification. BS or true?

if the UN did not intervene, we were literally no more than 48 or 72 hours away from another Darfur/Rwanda mass-execution, and that's according to what gadaffi himself had said. The mission is a humanitarian one to protect civilians, but that happens to also be co-aligned with stopping gadaffi.

We are there to protect civilians and to provide support from the air and sea for the rebels, who handle the ground operations. the latter is an extension of the former.

And the rebels, keep in mind, were just peaceful protestors who gadaffi attacked. When some of gadaffi's men defected, that is when the rebels became armed. But they're still largely people who were peacefully protesting.

 

[Zenith]

Russian Foreign Minister says: "Intervention by coalition not sanctioned by resolution 1973". He says it is essentially a civil war between two factions. This is a question I've been asking and others have remarked about: the resolution is based on "protecting civilians", so does that mean the rebels with military hardware are considered civilians or do people believe the helping of the rebels is an unintentional by product of defending civilians? Everything I've personally come across pictures the coalition as ground support for the rebels. The Russians are certainly disagreeing and see this as an attempt to specifically overthrow Gaddafi with humanitarian needs being used as a justification. BS or true?

interesting tidbit, President Medvedev was in favour of the no-fly zone but Putin wasn't. Lead to a bit of internal strife when Putin dropped his crusades remark.

 

[Lesiroth]

if the UN did not intervene, we were literally no more than 48 or 72 hours away from another Darfur/Rwanda mass-execution, and that's according to what gadaffi himself had said. The mission is a humanitarian one to protect civilians, but that happens to also be co-aligned with stopping gadaffi.

We are there to protect civilians and to provide support from the air and sea for the rebels, who handle the ground operations. the latter is an extension of the former.

And the rebels, keep in mind, were just peaceful protestors who gadaffi attacked. When some of gadaffi's men defected, that is when the rebels became armed. But they're still largely people who were peacefully protesting.

Seriously. Why are people just jumping for the chance to put down this mission?
I would like someone to explain to me a suitable alternative to the intervention, when Gaddafi, who murdered more than a thousand in less than a month, was telling those in Benghazi 'I'm coming for you."
When people in Libya themselves are holding banners saying 'Thank you USA' and 'Thanks to Coalition', I'm pretty sure they're happy about what happened.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

An doctor describes the situation in Misrata from the hospital:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95ri_YBnrZI&feature=player_embedded

It sounds really bad. A taste of what Benghazi would have been like if we had not intervened. And keep in mind that this is after a week of coalition strikes around Misrata including the one that foiled Gaddafi's attempt to use helicopters and planes the other day.

 

[GaimeGuy]

Seriously. Why are people just jumping for the chance to put down this mission?
I would like someone to explain to me a suitable alternative to the intervention, when Gaddafi, who murdered more than a thousand in less than a month, was telling those in Benghazi 'I'm coming for you."
When people in Libya themselves are holding banners saying 'Thank you USA' and 'Thanks to Coalition', I'm pretty sure they're happy about what happened.

Ignorance. The moment we acted, it was being reported as a 3rd Iraq/Afghanistan, when it shares nothing in common with either.

I think a lot of people are upset because this coincides with attempts by republicans to cut labor rights all throughout the US. Again, this is ignorance. People think "The government is cutting collecive bargaining while invading Libya!!!" When what's being done by republicans is being done at the state executive and legislature levels, completely separate and disjoint from global affairs, which is being decided by a separate body at a different level altogether.

People just don't care about the details, so it gets dumbed down to "Hey, this is kind of like that iraq thing, right?" Not that they know what that iraq thing is, either.

 

[adversesolutions]

People just don't care about the details, so it gets dumbed down to "Hey, this is kind of like that iraq thing, right?" Not that they know what that iraq thing is, either.

Haha, spot on.

 

[RustyNails]

Ignorance. The moment we acted, it was being reported as a 3rd Iraq/Afghanistan, when it shares nothing in common with either.

I think a lot of people are upset because this coincides with attempts by republicans to cut labor rights all throughout the US. Again, this is ignorance. People think "The government is cutting collecive bargaining while invading Libya!!!" When what's being done by republicans is being done at the state executive and legislature levels, completely separate and disjoint from global affairs, which is being decided by a separate body at a different level altogether.

People just don't care about the details, so it gets dumbed down to "Hey, this is kind of like that iraq thing, right?" Not that they know what that iraq thing is, either.

Which is why I'm incredibly disappointed with Job Stewart. He painted it as exactly our third war in Libya without mentioning anything about Benghazi and Gaddafi's orders of massacre after the 48 hour ultimatum.

Also, news update. Rebels were pushed back from Nawfaliya to Bin Jawad. Nawfaliya is a small town (and I mean reallllly small...only one main road goes through it) between Sirte and Bin Jawad. What the rebels are trying to do is take back all the smaller towns along the way to Sirte, so I think celebrations about the capture of Sirte are premature. Here's the town (marked A)

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

The allies need to wipe out every trace of military in Sirte.

And then the rebels need to figure out what to do about those landmines. I hope they can find a way to do at least that much by themselves.

 

[Roude Leiw]

The allies need to wipe out every trace of military in Sirte.

And then the rebels need to figure out what to do about those landmines.

maybe the allies can bomb a way through the land mine field.

 

[RustyNails]

The allies need to wipe out every trace of military in Sirte.

And then the rebels need to figure out what to do about those landmines.

But the artillery is embedded within civilian populations of Sirte. It's a Gaddafi stronghold. It's going to be a challenge to take it out within civilian districts, if they are planning it to take it out. But I did hear reports of explosions in Sirte as well as in Tripoli.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

The worrying thing is that so far the rebels have shown no indication that they can actually fight. They haven't had to do so yet, and every time they actually meet resistance the disorganization and lack of discipline results in a swift and panicked retreat. These are not soldiers, and it shows. The allies literally have to do everything for them, but in Sirte that might not be enough...

 

[RustyNails]

President Barack Obama is going to address the nation on USA's role in UN intervention in Libya. Live address begins at 7:30 PM EST, so keep your eyes peeled.

 

[Clevinger]

The worrying thing is that so far the rebels have shown no indication that they can actually fight. They haven't had to do so yet, and every time they actually meet resistance the disorganization and lack of discipline results in a swift and panicked retreat. These are not soldiers, and it shows. The allies literally have to do everything for them, but in Sirte that might not be enough...

On the plus side, there was an article about a doctor in Tripoli who said Gaddafi's men's morale is at a serious low, with many trying to get out of duty with fake injuries or defecting.

 

[SoulPlaya]

Just once I wish the President would just say the truth. This is about ensuring that the next leader of Libya is friendly to the West, not about protecting civilians.

 

[Ignis Fatuus]

Just once I wish the President would just say the truth. This is about ensuring that the next leader of Libya is friendly to the West, not about protecting civilians.

Right, because Gaddafi wasn't already that with us.

 

[Dominican Power]

Just once I wish the President would just say the truth. This is about ensuring that the next leader of Libya is friendly to the West, not about protecting civilians.

Why can't it be about both, win win

 

[Kreed]

The president going through the list of countries in the Coalition reminded me of Dave Chappelle's "Black Bush" skit.

 

[SoulPlaya]

Right, because Gaddafi wasn't already that with us.

He was, but I think it became clear that his days were numbered.

 

[SoulPlaya]

Why can't it be about both, win win

OK, but be honest about it.

 

[sangreal]

Gaddafi referred to Obama as his brother in the past. He was plenty friendly to the west ever since he allegedly gave up his terrorist ambitions. I personally believe that Obama thought he was picking a winner after Egypt when he endorsed the libyan protesters (now rebels) and said Gaddafi had to go. Once he did that, Gaddafi's ouster is the only acceptable outcome

 

[LuCkymoON]

I'm currently listening to Obama's speech and I'm so hoping he would say; "I didn't know I couldn't do that."
xD

 

[SnakeswithLasers]

Bam, Obama's calling out Gaborn and JayDub by name right now.

 

[SoulPlaya]

So, these military actions aren't designed to overthrow Gaddafi? LOL!!!!