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Undertale |OT| Indie RPG with determination and spider bake sales

R

robotrock

Banned
I'm really confused about how this game works. I just met Sans and Papyrus, please help me out so I can enjoy this game without freaking out about my decisions.

Am I supposed to be killing people or sparing them? Because a lot of these enemies are adorable and I'd rather spare them, but I don't really make that much XP that way. Am I going to be severely under leveled for the game then?

I also here a bunch of stuff mentioning "pacifist" or "genocide" and I imagine that means that this game plays out differently if you kill enemies or if you don't? Should I care about that from the start or later? Will the game even introduce me to that stuff?

I think I'm asking fifteen questions here or something.
 
P

Puruzi

Banned
kurona_bright said:
I don't think that was a very good analogy. Shooting another bullet in a fps takes a lot less time and effort than a turn in Undertale.

Also, not everybody's going to notice everything or remember everything, and I generally hate 'git gud' as a response to "I don't think this game did the best job at explaining things or making the solution clear".

I don't think it's unfair to ding Undertale on not making the indicators a little clearer, and I have gushed in this thread about it to excess. Or maybe that was another forum. Either way, I love this game a lot, but it's perfectly possible to love the game and still think some aspects could have been improved.
Click to expand...

Making it easier =/= improving it
 
C

C.Olimar788

Member
The only thing I wish were different about Undyne is
I wish her ACT options stopped affecting her after some time to make it clear that they didn't help. Papyrus does much the same thing - "Papyrus is too busy FIGHTing to flirt back!" and etc. That Undyne's ACT options continued to impact her shots made me think for a while I just had to keep pleading.

As for Toriel,
I think her fight is brilliant, it's a brilliant way of making it clear from early on that sometimes you have to actively try to spare someone, and it's not the easy way out. If you choose to FIGHT her, and I totally did in my first playthrough, you completely deserve to kill her. Consequences and all that - though I can see where people find the later battle with Asgore to be counter-intuitive in comparison.
 
G

Geg

Member
Yeah I kind of love how the solution to the Toriel fight isn't completely obvious. It's kind of childish to assume the game needs to guide you toward doing a perfect run on your first attempt.

In fact I would say that the game is designed in a way that guides you toward
killing her the first time, given how you suddenly and unexpected deal a ton of damage at the end of the fight. Which then leads towards players (like myself) to restart from the last save to try it again, which then gives you the revelation that Flowey knows about your save scumming. The opening of the game would not have made as much of an impact on me if it hadn't been for that sequence of events.
 
M

Moonlight

Banned
robotrock said:
I'm really confused about how this game works. I just met Sans and Papyrus, please help me out so I can enjoy this game without freaking out about my decisions.

Am I supposed to be killing people or sparing them? Because a lot of these enemies are adorable and I'd rather spare them, but I don't really make that much XP that way. Am I going to be severely under leveled for the game then?

I also here a bunch of stuff mentioning "pacifist" or "genocide" and I imagine that means that this game plays out differently if you kill enemies or if you don't? Should I care about that from the start or later? Will the game even introduce me to that stuff?

I think I'm asking fifteen questions here or something.
Click to expand...
Don't think about progression in Undertale as typical for an RPG.

If something in the game inspires a gut reaction in you, follow it.
 
N

NotLiquid

Member
Jazz573 said:
I can't figure out the arrow puzzle in Hotland.
Click to expand...

Hint: The solution is a lot less complicated than it might seem. Keep the empty spaces in mind.

Answer:
When you press either of the buttons on the middle-row, jump onto one of the empty spaces and re-step on the button to change the arrow outcome on the final step.

I had trouble with that puzzle too and when I figured it out I was mad at myself for glossing over such a simple solution.
 
D

dity

Member
Is the arrow puzzle just about where you need the arrows all pointing in one direction to get to the next screen?

I felt that was fairly stock standard stuff. Just disrupt the "flow" of when the arrows changed by getting onto the conveyor belt at different times and it basically solves itself.
 
O

OniBarubary

Banned
kurona_bright said:
Also, not everybody's going to notice everything or remember everything, and I generally hate 'git gud' as a response to "I don't think this game did the best job at explaining things or making the solution clear".
Click to expand...

Yeah, I didn't say "get gud" or anything like it.

kurona_bright said:
I don't think it's unfair to ding Undertale on not making the indicators a little clearer, and I have gushed in this thread about it to excess. Or maybe that was another forum. Either way, I love this game a lot, but it's perfectly possible to love the game and still think some (relatively minor) aspects could have been improved.
Click to expand...

I literally said that this game has fair criticisms that you can lodge against it, I just don't think that making the indications clearer is one of them.
 
D

dity

Member
Puruzi said:
It does make it worse. I like figuring out things on my own. Games that hold your hand aren't bad, but would always be better if they didn't imo
Click to expand...
Undertale would benefit from a forced encounter with a monster you cannot beat that can only be solved by running away. It would be of better benefit than a long room with no encounters in the Ruins.
 
I

InfiniteNine

Rolling Girl
NotLiquid said:
Joel from Vinesauce has been doing a great stream of the game for the last two weeks. Right now he's fresh off of having beaten Muffet. If you can't catch the streams live when he does them, be sure to check the YouTube channel above as he posts the full streams there after doing them. He does some really fun voice impressions of the characters too and he's pretty perceptive to the little details.

He's doing True Pacifist and even though he promised to do a Genocide run afterwards he said he's starting to regret promising that since he's enamored with the game.
Click to expand...

Puruzi said:
Cryatoic's and Vincesauce Joel's are good, but they're both still ongoing.
Click to expand...
Thanks for these! Randomly searching youtube has pretty much just thrown a bunch of annoying people in my face so much appreciated. :)
 
K

kurona_bright

Neo Member
Puruzi said:
It does make it worse. I like figuring out things on my own. Games that hold your hand aren't bad, but would always be better if they didn't imo
Click to expand...

The game could still let you figure it out. I think what would be helpful are things that would prevent anybody from getting stuck - like in the ruins, if the player just fails the perspective-colored-switch puzzle over and over again, the game tells the player, "You notice a blue switch behind that player."

Stuff like that in the
Undyne and Asgore
fights would've helped tremendously, I think.
I think for Undyne, the game could just pop up a message if you don't run away in 20 or 30 turns: "When faced with Undyne's strength, you feel like you want to run."
Somebody mentioned having the TALK option disappear during the Asgore fight, and I think that would help tremendously as well. And maybe the game could've tracked to see if you were doing any damage to Asgore, and if you hadn't scratched him once in 10 turns, tell you something else about what to do.

Stuff added specifically for the cases when people get stuck would help a lot I think.

Toriel's fight itself I think isn't too bad. Maybe put the frogs that talk about sparing when yellow closer to the house, and that might help.

EDIT:
Yeah, the 'git gud' thing is on me. I misread. Sorry about that.

I literally said that this game has fair criticisms that you can lodge against it, I just don't think that making the indications clearer is one of them.
Click to expand...
That's fair. I guess we just disagree on this point then.
 
I

InfiniteNine

Rolling Girl
kurona_bright said:
The game could still let you figure it out. I think what would be helpful are things that would prevent anybody from getting stuck - like in the ruins, if the player just fails the perspective-colored-switch puzzle over and over again, the game tells the player, "You notice a blue switch behind that player."

Stuff like that in the
Undyne and Asgore
fights would've helped tremendously, I think.
I think for Undyne, the game could just pop up a message if you don't run away in 20 or 30 turns: "When faced with Undyne's strength, you feel like you want to run."
Somebody mentioned having the TALK option disappear during the Asgore fight, and I think that would help tremendously as well. And maybe the game could've tracked to see if you were doing any damage to Asgore, and if you hadn't scratched him once in 10 turns, tell you something else about what to do.

Stuff added specifically for the cases when people get stuck would help a lot I think.

Toriel's fight itself I think isn't too bad. Maybe put the frogs that talk about sparing when yellow closer to the house, and that might help.
Click to expand...

I think putting the frogs in rooms where you can encounter enemies was probably a mistake after watching a few LPs since a few people got the impression they triggered fights which doesn't work well with people who try to avoid encounters completely.
 
O

OniBarubary

Banned
kurona_bright said:
Well, I think that it is...? I'm sorry, I'm not sure what else to say here.
Click to expand...

I mean, I was just saying what I thought. I don't think you shouldn't say what you think, I know you love the game, we've talked on here before.


Joel's playthrough is just so hilarious because all the voices he does for the characters are SO BAD it's fucking hilarious. His Hogan Papyrus and now Catty and Bratty are killing me.
 
K

kurona_bright

Neo Member
OniBarubary said:
I mean, I was just saying what I thought. I don't think you shouldn't say what you think, I know you love the game, we've talked on here before.


Joel's playthrough is just so hilarious because all the voices he does for the characters are SO BAD it's fucking hilarious. His Hogan Papyrus and now Catty and Bratty are killing me.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I edited my original response because when I reread what I originally wrote, it came off to me as incredibly passive-aggressive. Sorry about that as well. I don't think that's what you meant. :v

Joel's Papyrus is a work of art and no one can ever tell me otherwise. It's not what I imagined at first for the character, but it fits so well.
 
O

OniBarubary

Banned
Another good Twitch to watch is this YouPickGames guy. Like, he plays through it relatively normally as a Twitch player so he's joking and when shit gets real he's kinda amused and shocked about it and he's a pretty chill guy. Overdone reactions a bit but nothing bad and he doesn't really get emotional at all. Very entertaining watching him.

Then he plays the True Ending. And when you (TRUE ENDING SPOILERS)
get to the part in the Asriel fight where it cuts to the flashback he gets very silent. And plays the rest of the battle. And then when it's over and it cuts to Asriel crying, he's sorta getting a bit choked up. And when Asriel says "I don't want to let go" he just fucking loses it. He starts weeping mercilessly.
I started crying just because he was so messed up by it.
 
M

Moonlight

Banned
A Link to the Snitch said:
People have trouble with the
arrow puzzle in Hotland
? That's for baby bones
Click to expand...
image.php
 
D

DNAbro

Member
OniBarubary said:
Another good Twitch to watch is this YouPickGames guy. Like, he plays through it relatively normally as a Twitch player so he's joking and when shit gets real he's kinda amused and shocked about it and he's a pretty chill guy. Overdone reactions a bit but nothing bad and he doesn't really get emotional at all. Very entertaining watching him.

Then he plays the True Ending. And when you (TRUE ENDING SPOILERS)
get to the part in the Asriel fight where it cuts to the flashback he gets very silent. And plays the rest of the battle. And then when it's over and it cuts to Asriel crying, he's sorta getting a bit choked up. And when Asriel says "I don't want to let go" he just fucking loses it. He starts weeping mercilessly.
I started crying just because he was so messed up by it.
Click to expand...


I was tearing up at that part as well.

I JUST WANT TO SAVE HIM PERMANENTLY DAMN IT.
 
W

Weiss

Banned
So I'm being a bit more kill happy in my second playthrough.

I killed the dog couple because, hey, they walked right up to me talking about how much they wanted to kill me.

Then when I reached Grilby's I saw their empty seats and Doggo was asking why they were running late, then Undyne specifically mentioned them and how I kill monsters because it's easy.

This game is really good at making you feel like dirt.

EDIT: And I just beat Undyne and
WAAAAAH IM SORRY OH MY GOD IM SORRY

And Papyrus had to call me up telling me how we should all be friends, because of course he did.
 
P

PSqueak

Banned
Weiss said:
Then when I reached Grilby's I saw their empty seats and Doggo was asking why they were running late, then Undyne specifically mentioned them and how I kill monsters because it's easy.
Click to expand...

You should see his dialogue when
You kill all the other dogs besides him, he thinks they're all there standing still to prank him.
 
P

Puruzi

Banned
PSqueak said:
That chain of reblogs have been going longer than the time gaf had been discussing that particular issue, that picture that was posted in this thread has been making the rounds in tumblr and /vg/ for some time.
Click to expand...

lol, jut saying that cause I just saw it and it's mirroring what happened today
 
Quote

Quote

Member
So I'm hoping the
Toriel
fight is pretty early and not that important because it kind of sucks that no one is spoiler tagging it in this thread.
 
D

Dimmle

Member
Um, I think I did a bad.

(hog wild ENDING spoilers)

I chose not to erase the world when asked by the first human. He 999999'd me. Now Undertale is just a black screen with sounds of desolation. I have tried relaunching multiple times. Uhhhhhhhhhhhhh
 
P

Puruzi

Banned
Dimmle said:
Um, I think I did a bad.

(hog wild ENDING spoilers)

I chose not to erase the world when asked by the first human. He 999999'd me. Now Undertale is just a black screen with sounds of desolation. I have tried relaunching multiple times. Uhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Click to expand...

you have to leave it alone for 10 mins or something I think
 
P

PSqueak

Banned
Jazz573 said:
So, uhh I'm stuck in an endless loop fighting Flowey. How the hell do I get past him? Also, #FuckFlowey. :p
Click to expand...

Keep trying, it gets easier with each subsequent try, also you'll notice progress when certain stages of the fight show up (you'll know when you see them) which you clear and stay cleared even if you lose again.

Basically, if you keep trying, you can't lose.
 
T

Toad King

Banned
Opto said:
First playthough should be done without any input from anyone.
Click to expand...

Exactly. This is why I hate all the yelling at people who don't do true pacifist/genocide runs first.

Undertale is a weird RPG that goes against a lot of staples of the genre that we are used to. The game is trying to teach you its rules through your first playthrough and when you are getting badgered by people do play the game the "right" way you lose a lot of what I feel is an important part of the game. So much can change and so much more can be discovered in a second playthrough.

When I first played through the demo, I killed Toriel and got shamed by Flowey about it. In the retail game, I managed to spare her but still killed random encounters and got told off again. Rather than restart, I played through and saw the results from my actions:
Undyne calling me a murderer, the talk with sans in the castle corridor, and the postgame talk with Flowey.
I then somewhat sped through a second run and did and noticed a bunch of different stuff:
sans and Papyrus talking about how I look familiar, tricking the third Mettaton trap by not stepping on a green tile, discovering Flowey following you on certain screens.
Stuff that is either easy to miss or not possible on one playthrough.

The game is really short and when you know what you're doing it can be sped through in 3-4 hours, and you are given enough choices to make a second playthrough interesting. Just play the game the way you want the first time. Then you'll know what to do your next run.
 
D

Dimmle

Member
So I, uh... beat hard mode? Would play more.

I've got one more Undertale run in me, I think. I just like futzing around in this world. I am (hog wild ENDING spoiler)
Sans's greatest nightmare.
 
E

Earthpainting

Member
Dimmle said:
The lack of communication toward Toriel's resolution isn't an objective problem since the game isn't presenting you with a fail state either way.

You're meant to find challenge in the pacifistic options and appropriate weight should be felt when you resort to violence.

This highlights the problems with expecting to play Undertale "optimally."
Click to expand...
This is a good way of putting it. The game continues either way, so it's fine for your first run. If you kill her, you'll know something is up, as the game's description is plastered with how you do not have to kill anyone. Reloading your save after that mistake is also going to play into Flowey's narrative, which is probably a very good way to experience the story.

I did struggle a bit with Undyne's gimmick, because I didn't think too much about
the opening message, nor did I notice that the colour of my heart cursor was tied to my ability to flee for a few rounds. I was too busy freaking out over her actual combat gimmick that took all of my concentration.
On the whole I think most of the boss battles were communicated well enough.
 
F

Fantastapotamus

Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
Kinda curious how long the game is, I just "beat"
the mad dummy
how much more is there?
I enjoy the game so far, although I'm not in love with it like many others seem to be. It's...neat.
 
A

A Link to the Past

Banned
Darn, Metascore dropped to 94. I was a bit taken aback by one of the comments from the new review, calling the early part of the game "utterly mediocre", but really, it's not too difficult to understand why someone would think of the beginning as that. The Ruins are easily the least interesting part of the game, and that's a damn shame. I like them a lot, but they don't do a particularly good job of setting the player up to better understand the goings-on. Some of the puzzles feel trivial, it's not too difficult to get caught in a neutral run, and frankly? It's funny, but it's not super funny. To contrast, this is the Ruins:

giphy.gif


This is the rest of the game:

mj-laughing.gif


(admittedly exaggerating for both images, but I think my point is clear)

Though regardless of my misgivings of the Ruins, they were "good enough" that they don't really affect my opinion of the game. They don't last quite that long, and the rest of the game entirely lacks those shortcomings. It would be unfair to judge it by an intro that is merely "good, perhaps very very good" when I regard EarthBound as my favourite game, even though it has a problematic difficulty spike at a couple points in the game that encourage grinding (or recurrent failure).

But hey, Cave Story isn't without its flaws either -
that you need to ignore Booster in order to find an item that disappears for no reason if you talk to him. You really need to have a walkthrough to know how to get that item.
Both games were made by a single person, and honestly I think Cave Story's problem there outweighs Undertale's by a decent margin!

EDIT: By the way, does anyone have a link to that cute comic of the player-character having an awful time dodging Undyne's attacks?
 
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