Maybe she finds out about Jon's parentage or feels guiltyabout how she treated him (not likely) or she just wants to fulfill Robb's wishes. Who knows? There are certainly ways to make it work and be emotionally satisfying.
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Maybe she finds out about Jon's parentage or feels guiltyabout how she treated him (not likely) or she just wants to fulfill Robb's wishes. Who knows? There are certainly ways to make it work and be emotionally satisfying.
Human Trashcan
Banned
If you can't tell one from the other in the books you've done a poor job of reading them. Maybe GRRM trusts the reader enough to tell the difference. The fact that virtue isn't always rewarded in no way means that the books say virtue is bad or foolish or naive. It means the system is rotten.
Just watched the episode back. It still isn't satisfying the way time passing is dealt in this instance while our characters are in peril but it does sort of work if you just assume they are waiting on the rock for Dany for multiple days.
The way it plays out to me it seems Thoros dies on night 1 then on the morning there is a conversation where they decide to wait for Dany rather than attack. *time passes* The Hound throws rocks, the ice has thickened, fight.
Ugh, usually I'm cool with time passing off screen, travel cut over but it is hard to justify Jon and co just sitting on the rock for any protracted period without comment.
Also on re-watch Sansa is even more of a scheming cow. If Sansa and Arya fight Brienne would be duty bound to step in, so Sansa sends her away because she wants to have the option of hurting/imprisoning/killing Arya if she gets in the way.
The way it plays out to me it seems Thoros dies on night 1 then on the morning there is a conversation where they decide to wait for Dany rather than attack. *time passes* The Hound throws rocks, the ice has thickened, fight.
Ugh, usually I'm cool with time passing off screen, travel cut over but it is hard to justify Jon and co just sitting on the rock for any protracted period without comment.
Also on re-watch Sansa is even more of a scheming cow. If Sansa and Arya fight Brienne would be duty bound to step in, so Sansa sends her away because she wants to have the option of hurting/imprisoning/killing Arya if she gets in the way.
Spirit of Jazz
Banned
Breezy, you're batting none in a million of book theories. Little Finger already already has a betrothal in mind for her in the books. You know, a potential heir to the Vale?
You're right here though. I'm not sure there he's a seer but he was made by the children's magic, the walkers have arranged their victims in the shape of the children's symbols, and he has control over/has been touched by Bran's magic in some way.
electroshockwave
Member
Episode wasn't quite as bad as I was expecting based on reactions here but its issues could have been significantly lessened by a few scripting changes. Dead man's quest was a dumb plot point but it's more dumb that they just came up with this idea unprompted. Maybe they have a meet between Jaime, Tyrion and Jon to propose a truce because of the wight walkers. Cersei demands proof so they go. Instead of the screwing around with ravens and Gendry running through dangerous territory by himself maybe just have Dany grow worried for Jon and decides to act. Her timing is just as circumstantial but it's less contrived. Instead of NK making the shot of the century maybe he aims at a grounded dragon. Maybe instead of having a dumb fight against zombies Jon is about to try to escape on Viserion when he gets hit.
Also, BreezyLimbo is trying way too hard to tie the book plot to this. There's as much evidence of this expedition being in the books as the Dorne plot, Sansa marrying Ramsay, Stannis ordering Shireen to be burnt or Hold the Door happening at a cave's random back door.
Edit - Also, how has Jon seriously not sent anything in weeks? "Hey sis, dragon queen is letting us mine for dragonglass. How's things with you?" "Tell Bran and Arya I'm glad they're alive. Going to Eastwatch"
Also, BreezyLimbo is trying way too hard to tie the book plot to this. There's as much evidence of this expedition being in the books as the Dorne plot, Sansa marrying Ramsay, Stannis ordering Shireen to be burnt or Hold the Door happening at a cave's random back door.
Edit - Also, how has Jon seriously not sent anything in weeks? "Hey sis, dragon queen is letting us mine for dragonglass. How's things with you?" "Tell Bran and Arya I'm glad they're alive. Going to Eastwatch"
BreezyLimbo
Banned
It's been years since I've read the books, shoot me.
Right, the question is what he is and why he can feel/notice the 3 Eyed Raven/Bran. Whether he was a seer before being turned, or something happened after he was turned is a mystery.
If the Night King is a seer and wanted a dragon why was the inciting incident that broke the stalemate the Hound throwing rocks? Was he waiting for the ice to harden or the dragons to show up? What was his plan here?
If he wanted dragons why didn't he spear the plot critical one everyone was being loaded onto, and then spear another as everyone tried to clamber on that? He gets two or more that way!
You basically have to accept internal motivation doesn't exist and shit is happening for the sake of setpieces.
If he wanted dragons why didn't he spear the plot critical one everyone was being loaded onto, and then spear another as everyone tried to clamber on that? He gets two or more that way!
You basically have to accept internal motivation doesn't exist and shit is happening for the sake of setpieces.
Not really agreeing with many here about the episode, it wasn't the worst thing ever. The time for the dragons to arrive was shown as like at least 2 days, which granted is short as shit, but meh, we've had worse (Varys teleportation last season being one).
But the dialog between Jorah and Jon... wth was that?
Jon going "Glad he didn't catch you"? Why, you know nothing (Jon Snow) of him, you're not besties... wtf.
Also Ice dragon, I'll be disappointed if it doesn't breath ice (I know it's undead, but I want an Ice dragon)
But the dialog between Jorah and Jon... wth was that?
Jon going "Glad he didn't catch you"? Why, you know nothing (Jon Snow) of him, you're not besties... wtf.
Also Ice dragon, I'll be disappointed if it doesn't breath ice (I know it's undead, but I want an Ice dragon)
I don't know what that was about but Arya id getting a lot of shit for this episode but Sansa did do some things that definitely add fuel to the fire. Especially in the scene at the end where she is literally caught going through her sisters stuff and then the first thing she does is say she has hundreds of loyal men as a threat. I'd be pretty pissed off too if I was in Arya's shoes and see Sansa being buddy buddy with Littlfinger and spying on me instead, not the the point of crazyness she took it but still
demosthenes
Member
The only defense for being happy that he didn't catch is he would have heard he's good with a sword and at the end of the world he'll take anyone he can get?
edit: My only hope w/ Arya/Sansa is that Arya is pushing Sansa to choose her loyalty as she doesn't trust her yet.
Ocarina_117
Banned
Beric telling Jon he looks nothing like Ned irked me.
I always felt it was a major point in Cat's hatred of his character. But yeah it's an adaptation so I'll deal with it.
The episode fell flat for me. My brother and father are also beginning to feel the show is being rushed ridiculously and good writing has been sacrificed for spectacle.
I always felt it was a major point in Cat's hatred of his character. But yeah it's an adaptation so I'll deal with it.
The episode fell flat for me. My brother and father are also beginning to feel the show is being rushed ridiculously and good writing has been sacrificed for spectacle.
How dare you criticise the Night King's military tactics!
First he has bear scouts to deal with any marauding attackers, then he has a small scout force with a White Walker leading and can control his minions close up. But he also has insurance should the White Walker be killed, there is one guy who is not linked who can sound the alarm back to the main force. It is actually a very good system.
And he got himself a sweet dragon mount only having to sacrifice a few footsoldiers.
I think that is exactly what she did with handing her the dagger. Basically saying i have nothing to hide from you, you cant do anything to me, and if i wanted to kill you i would have, now pick your side
Tired of the Jons a Targ winks they keep doing this season, like the dragon swooping in, the beric line and all the other ones that will be so "ironic" once Jon is revealed to officially be Rhaegar's son. Just waiting for a character to wink at the camera after one of those lines at this point and a laugh track to play.
Johnlenham
Member
I found it funny that they all sat there freezing and old fire wizard just lights his sword up to burn his mate. Atleast the hound cracked a joke about it just before it happened.
Operations
Member
Well, if we go by the books definition, it definitely isn't one. According to AWOIAF:
AWOIAF said:
Yeah I remember a Cat quote about it being even more an insult to injury that this bastard child looked more like a Stark than her trueborn Stark childen, sans Arya.
When he said that I was like uhhhh he looks the most like Ned?
cubicle47b
Member
The world as a whole is random and cruel, especially during war, but at the same time actions often have obvious short or long-term consequences. I disagree with your first sentence. Smart actions are usually rewarded and stupid actions are usually punished, especially in the short term. Noble actions are often rewarded and devious/cruel actions are often punished, at least in the long term. We have a couple prominent examples of noble leaders dying because they made stupid political decisions early in the books, but what do you think the fates of the Stark, Lannister, Frey, and Bolton houses will be by the end of the story? Littlefinger has been brilliant and ruthless in his pursuit of power, but what do you think his fate will be?
John Dunbar
correct about everything
watched the preston jacobs review of the episode, and he pointed out that the letter shouldn't even be in winterfell. it was last seen with robb and catelyn when they were in the riverlands. jesus this show.
Tell me any good action that has been rewarded.
I think almost all the noble houses will be in ruin. I think there will be much more suffering for everyone, good or bad, because George writes with a world view of cynicism and nihilism.
So, Preston Jacobs pointed out that Sansa's letter wasn't even at Winterfell, Robb and Cat got it on the road. D&D really can't get anything right.
Jinx!
Jinx!
How many times will Martin need to say that the ending will be bittersweet for people to stop saying the books are just nihilism?
But he kept all records of everything!!
The most stupid thing of the letter plot is that both Robb and master ludwin knew Sansa was forced into it, no one with a brain took it seriously and no one would now.
ClosingADoor
Member
Maybe they sent multiple ones, because they didn't know where Robb would be at that time. These minor things don't really impact anything.
John Dunbar
correct about everything
welp
the letter was received in winterfell by robb, who took it with him to the riverlands.
I think that in the books Arya can't forget Sansa's scream.
This whole thing is just....uurgh.
Maybe not, but it does show a lack of concern with continuity, especially when the show does so and bends backwards for such a stupid and unnecessary subplot. The fact that all logic and continuity was thrown out the window to contrive such terrible drama only makes it worse.
Ocarina_117
Banned
Arya is AWFUL. Winterfell is AWFUL as is littlefinger. I wanted to fast forward through that crap. Ugh.
Though we need more screen shots and gifs. Some brilliant visuals this episode.
Though we need more screen shots and gifs. Some brilliant visuals this episode.
Nothing impacts anything. That's kinda the problem.
Cersei would send her raven to winterfell then Luwin would send it on to Robb.
Sanctuary
Member
So I just rewatched a few of these scenes yet again, and the red shirt count seems to be "mostly" consistent. At the very start, when it has the camera far out showing them all walking in the mountains there are only ten of them shown. Ten. Maybe two of them were way ahead, only to return to the back of the bus later, because in the next few scenes you can always count twelve. Yet after that, and before the bear attack, where it shows a far shot of them all walking again, you can count thirteen. So at least the bear attack defensive circle kind of makes sense. They already spawned the additional guy prior to it. The t-bone angle, where none of them can see it even when it's right up on them (despite it looking like they could all see it when it was much farther out) makes no sense though.
Death count: 1?
When the bear jumps into the ring, it's very hard to tell if that's a new person (with a sword), or the same spear scout still in its mouth, not quite dead. It looks like it's a second guy. Then Jon gets blasted the fuck away (miraculously avoiding a face mauling).
Death count: 2?
Then one of the wildlings gets struck in the face and has his back chewed off before being tossed into the garbage.
Death count: 3?
Thoros jumps in to save Sandor. Gets mauled.
After the bear dies, in the next scene it shows ten walking with what looks like them dragging one of the fallen on the sled. It should be Thoros, but then that means another extra spawned. Plus, it looks completely covered.
Next scene it shows Tormund presumably in the lead. There are ten of them, but one is virtually impossible to see since it only shows the top of his hood, between Jon and Sandor when Jon's gait makes him move lower. This guy's arm looks like it could be Sandor's too. The only way to tell that it's not actually Sandor is the claw thing hanging off his backpack.
No one dies in the initial White Walker confrontation.
Gendry leaves the group.
Next scene shows seven left on screen (eight with the exiting Gendry), with Jon and Jorah up front, off screen, so that's nine. It pans out to show nine running towards the frozen lake.
Ice starts cracking, camera zooms way out and I can only count seven. Maybe there are still nine, but it sure doesn't look like it in that shot.
Spear (naginata?) guy trips, gets gangbanged and drops into the water.
Death Count: 4?
Screen pans out with them near the rock. It shows eight. So it should be six heroes and two randoms.
Thoros dies over the course of 1-3 days. Even though the show depicts it only being over night.
Death Count: 5?
World War Z ensues.
Spear guy gets gangbanged.
Death Count: 6?
Once they fallback, Jon tries to save the last of the extras, but instead the guy ends up body surfing into the zombie mosh pit below.
Death Count: 7?
Five are shown left standing on the rock fighting.
Four get onto the back of Drogon while Jon stupidly tries to buy them extra time by holding the entire swarm off by himself. Time they are wasting by gawking at the recent disembowelment (kind of looks like the section where the wing connects to the body is being eroded by acid, then the guts kind of just fall out from the side, but it might just be a blood geyser).
The math seems correct if you can account for the mysterious extra that appeared before the bear attack.
The irony is that it's not a noonwraith, and I actually played The Witcher 3 more recently than the last time I saw the image I'm thinking of (which is very similar).
Death count: 1?
When the bear jumps into the ring, it's very hard to tell if that's a new person (with a sword), or the same spear scout still in its mouth, not quite dead. It looks like it's a second guy. Then Jon gets blasted the fuck away (miraculously avoiding a face mauling).
Death count: 2?
Then one of the wildlings gets struck in the face and has his back chewed off before being tossed into the garbage.
Death count: 3?
Thoros jumps in to save Sandor. Gets mauled.
After the bear dies, in the next scene it shows ten walking with what looks like them dragging one of the fallen on the sled. It should be Thoros, but then that means another extra spawned. Plus, it looks completely covered.
Next scene it shows Tormund presumably in the lead. There are ten of them, but one is virtually impossible to see since it only shows the top of his hood, between Jon and Sandor when Jon's gait makes him move lower. This guy's arm looks like it could be Sandor's too. The only way to tell that it's not actually Sandor is the claw thing hanging off his backpack.
No one dies in the initial White Walker confrontation.
Gendry leaves the group.
Next scene shows seven left on screen (eight with the exiting Gendry), with Jon and Jorah up front, off screen, so that's nine. It pans out to show nine running towards the frozen lake.
Ice starts cracking, camera zooms way out and I can only count seven. Maybe there are still nine, but it sure doesn't look like it in that shot.
Spear (naginata?) guy trips, gets gangbanged and drops into the water.
Death Count: 4?
Screen pans out with them near the rock. It shows eight. So it should be six heroes and two randoms.
Thoros dies over the course of 1-3 days. Even though the show depicts it only being over night.
Death Count: 5?
World War Z ensues.
Spear guy gets gangbanged.
Death Count: 6?
Once they fallback, Jon tries to save the last of the extras, but instead the guy ends up body surfing into the zombie mosh pit below.
Death Count: 7?
Five are shown left standing on the rock fighting.
Four get onto the back of Drogon while Jon stupidly tries to buy them extra time by holding the entire swarm off by himself. Time they are wasting by gawking at the recent disembowelment (kind of looks like the section where the wing connects to the body is being eroded by acid, then the guts kind of just fall out from the side, but it might just be a blood geyser).
The math seems correct if you can account for the mysterious extra that appeared before the bear attack.
The irony is that it's not a noonwraith, and I actually played The Witcher 3 more recently than the last time I saw the image I'm thinking of (which is very similar).
It's in Sansa's handwriting.
It's amazing how every plot hole, no matter how small, has a defense force.
It was them putting in a line that doesnt make sense just to have a ohh how clever he looks more like his mom Lyanna
cubicle47b
Member
Eddard and Robb will be rewarded for their noble rule by the northern noble houses conspiring against the Boltons and Freys. The great northern conspiracy may or may not be unified, but it exists. House Stark will survive the books and rule in the north. House Bolton and House Frey will both end. House Lannister may survive, because of Tyrion, but it's clear that Tywin's legacy is in tatters. Littlefinger will almost certainly die because of Sansa.
There's no doubt that there will be plenty of suffering. That's what happens during war.
Gotta say after reading page after page of negative impressions I was honestly surprised by how decent it was on my rewatch a minute ago
I guess my opinion on it was totally gutted over the course of the day
It wasn't the worst episode of television ever
Still flawed as hell and one of the weaker "set piece" episodes for GOT - but I'm still way in on this show
I guess my opinion on it was totally gutted over the course of the day
It wasn't the worst episode of television ever
Still flawed as hell and one of the weaker "set piece" episodes for GOT - but I'm still way in on this show
Nazgul_Hunter
Member
Yes; I think they're not supposed to be mutually exclusive. He looks like a Stark, but not Ned. He certainly doesn't look like a Targ.
Sidenote: Was it me or was this episode full of callbacks to Lord of the Rings? A lot of the walking shots looked straight out of Fellowship; and then running to safety thru the ice like the fellowship went thru the bridge in Moria. Even the end, the way Jon Snow woke up to Emilia resembled Gandalf greeting Frodo in Rivendell.
Look some idiot is sperging about Sansa's letter when in the show and book Robb receives the letter at winterfell.
And in the book's Robb does bring his letter in Sansa's hand with him on the road
But look, a second letter, in Sansa's hand still at Winterfell.
Ocarina_117
Banned
I'm also irked as hell tormund said mance rayder should have bent the knee.
John Dunbar
correct about everything
Look some idiot is sperging about Sansa's letter when in the show and book Robb receives the letter at winterfell.
And in the book's Robb does bring his letter in Sansa's hand with him on the road
But look, a second letter, in Sansa's hand still at Winterfell.
too bad the show has to stand on its own. as far as the show is concerned, there is only one letter, unless robb mentioned this other letter at some point to catelyn.
Look some idiot is sperging about Sansa's letter when in the show and book Robb receives the letter at winterfell.
And in the book's Robb does bring his letter in Sansa's hand with him on the road
But look, a second letter, in Sansa's hand still at Winterfell.
Please don't call me an idiot. It's possible to disagree without resorting to name calling.
You could very well be right. Who knows? Though the letter Robb had in the Riverlands was addressed to him as was the letter Arya found in Littlefinger's room, there's a chance Sansa sent her brother two letters to Winterfell. It's a small point (like I said) and considering how sloppy the show is about everything, it's hard giving them the benefit of the doubt.
hydrophilic attack
Member
Look some idiot is sperging about Sansa's letter when in the show and book Robb receives the letter at winterfell.
And in the book's Robb does bring his letter in Sansa's hand with him on the road
But look, a second letter, in Sansa's hand still at Winterfell.
classy
In the show when Robb shows his mother the letter there is no mention it is in her hand. Robb must have brought the copy with him and Luwin kept the original. Duh.
Well it shows he is growing a character which is good. He never outright says he should've bend the knee, he's just starting to understand politics are a little bit more complicated than outright loyalty/pride.
What are the odds anyone on the show put five minutes of thought into this like you have?
I guess it is a plot hole if you assume one thing but not a plot hole if you assume something different.
And the reveal of Luwin's archive combined with the suspicious letter for Catelyn left at Winterfell probably means this Sansa vs Arya stuff is going to happen exactly like this in the books.
I was a little annoyed at Jon offering Longclaw back to Beric when they're already miles into their trek.For such an important tool in their arsenal, it's the kinda shit they should've hashed out on the week(s) long trip up to Eastwatch, considering they were stuck together alone. They never chit chatted I guess that entire time. Or maybe talked about the weather constantly?
But the show apparently hates depicting travel and they couldn't fit it in last week when they met at Dragonstone so eh, whatever. It's just one of those minor quibbles.
Admiral Woofington
Member
he's too little for me
I like BIG
HARD
VEINY
PULSATING
HEROES.
I like BIG
HARD
VEINY
PULSATING
HEROES.
Sanctuary
Member
You mean Jorah right? Also, the complaint that Jon wasn't besties, and shouldn't have mentioned being glad that he wasn't captured isn't that illogical. They had more than an hour to talk, and Jon could have been mostly caught up on the more important Jorah points over the last few years. Plus, he's someone Dany likes a lot, which Jon knows and is there with them to try to prove Jon right.
Was he just supposed to say "Fuck, I guess it's good for you that my dad was so sloppy"? As far as the sword scene goes, yep. But they wanted the audience to see that exchange, and I doubt Jon would have just decided that he should give it back to Jorah as soon as he met him. The "getting to know you" phase was most likely not too soon prior to them leaving Castle Black anyway.
Yes, almost everything about the episode screamed LOTR. I even mentioned to my friend how the ending was almost like a direct lift from Return of the King too. Before it even happened I said "Here comes the giant eagles to lift them from the rock surrounded by lava...err dragons and ice." before the dragons appeared. Benjen's death was not too dissimilar to Boromir's either. The scream that the captured wight made sounded a bit like a Nazgul scream too.
The Greek Freak
Member
Thank you for helping me understand why I hated the episode even beyond the awful writing.
ResidentWeevil13
Member
lol that's a hell of a leap. Why are so many GAFers convinced that D&D's filler storylines are gonna happen in the books. Season 5-7 are filled with things I'm convinced will not happen in the books, or at the very least, will play out so utterly differently that it would be disingenuous to say it's the same.
Interfectum
Member
Maybe I'm not well versed in high fantasy but I can't help but feel like some of thiis this is getting pretty close to Warcraft in some areas. Might as well put the night king in heavy armor.
This meshes very well with the current Hearthstone expansion. Lol
This meshes very well with the current Hearthstone expansion. Lol