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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!

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Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Is there a list of the compatibility issues? Kinda keen to check them out as I haven't seen anything like that so far using my 1CHIP-02.

I don't have a list handy, but I've actually heard of some bizarre instances where rewiring the CSYNC pin on a 1-CHIP that lacks it actually fixes some of these issues for no discernible reason.
 
If you cant get audio through SCART, make sure to ask if she has one with RCA stereo plugs as well. I dunno if she still makes em, but thats how I got my Saturn and SNES cables. Genesis doesnt mater since you'll want to plug in via the headphone port ( 3.5mm to RCA).
I shouldn't have a problem with audio until I get an RGB monitor (in which case the BNC converter will break out audio) or a Trinitron (in which case I'll get her SCART>>>YUV converter with break out audio).
 
I'm going to give some of those FM profiles a try. I am using a 720p display though, I use scan lines (which that one guy says he doesn't) and I'm playing through Wii VC, would that mean the SNES profile is useless to me?
 

Madao

Member
it's just settings, not sure what you mean with actual functions though



haha yup, been saying this for a minute now!

i meant actual functions as in, the FM still does everything the same as before the update and has no changes opposed to having it do things differently.

i'm waiting for an N64 and Wii profile to see how they stack against what i have.

edit: is there any difference between outputting in DVI and HDMI modes?
 

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Got some new toys in the mail yesterday, so I spent last night testing them out: a Dreamcast broadband adapter and a second twin-stick. If I ever manage to track down a link cable I'm totally grabbing a second console and muscling Virtual On into local fighting game events.

Anyway, in the course of testing this stuff, I ran into something kind of bizarre. Huge image dump incoming.

As I've mentioned before, my secondary gaming display is an old CRT VGA computer monitor. Nothin' real fancy about it, but it's nice in that it accepts signals ranging from standard 640x480 VGA all the way up to 1080p, so it's a nice catch-all screen for everything from vintage 240p consoles (with the help of an XRGB-3) to the Xbox 360 via VGA cable. I've run Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 on it a few times at its native 720p resolution and it's just a delight to the eyes.

Point being: if I'm busting out the VGA-capable Dreamcast for some hardware tests, it's only proper to pair it with this monitor.

Here's a few sample close-up shots of what Dreamcast looks like on VGA:

dc_weirdness1.jpg

dc_weirdness2.jpg

dc_weirdness3.jpg


As is typical of 480p content on 31 KHz monitors, there's a faint hint of scanlines, but you don't really notice them in some situations unless you press your face against the monitor. It's not like 240p content where every other line can be more or less blotted out altogether.

dc_weirdness4.jpg


Checking the monitor's status screen, we see standard 640x480 VESA resolution, 31 KHz horizontal frequency, and an NTSC refresh rate of 59.9 Hz. Nothing unusual here.

dc_weirdness5.jpg


Zoom in and check out all of those pixels.



...Anyway, I used a Japanese copy of Virtual On to test this stuff out, and since I have an American Dreamcast, I use a boot disc to load it. Specifically, I use something called an "Innovation Super Game Converter." When I've used this boot disc in conjunction with a VGA box in the past, the screen has always blacked out while the boot disc program is running. I didn't think much of it; I just assumed that, like a small but significant percentage of Dreamcast games, the boot disc wasn't programmed to support VGA and was a 15 KHz 240p/480i program like those games are.

But I hadn't yet used this boot disc on this monitor, and this monitor unexpectedly displayed the boot program just fine.

dc_weirdness6.jpg


Moreover, it was displayed with extremely pronounced scanlines, as you'd see in low-res games on low-res monitors.

dc_weirdness7.jpg


This took me aback a little because I was certain that this monitor could not display genuine 15 KHz video signals. In fact, I attempted to boot up Bangai-O via the Kuro in 240p mode just to confirm it. Indeed, low-res games just don't fly on this monitor. Attempting to run Bangai-O gives me this error message on the monitor:

FREQUENCY OUT OF RANGE
H: 15.7 KHz V: 59.9 Hz

Which leaves me to ask: what's up with this boot disc? Checking the monitor status while this program is running reveals:

dc_weirdness8.jpg


So... it's a low-res signal, but it's running at twice the typical horizontal and vertical frequency, and that means that it'll run fine--with scanlines, even--on a 31 KHz monitor?

Still scratching my head, I decided to plug the console into my XCAPTURE-1, which does a pretty solid job at identifying uncommon input resolutions. Dreamcast loads up, the capture card correctly identifies it as a 720x480p signal with a 640x480p active frame, etc.

Then the boot disc loads and the XCAPTURE-1 reports this status for the input signal:

dc_weirdness9.png


All of my wat.

Why does the Dreamcast even support such a bizarre resolution, and why is this the only thing I've ever seen that uses it?

It's kind of a cool thing to stumble upon, I guess, but now I'm just wishing that genuine 120fps low-res Dreamcast games existed for me to play, lol.
 
OK Pop-quiz hotshots

I've got my RGB NES all set up with my XRGBmini

everything is fine EXCEPT that I'm seeing some motion blur. I can live with it but would like to eliminate if possible. Are there any settings I should be looking for?
 
Just set up my PVM 20L5 last night....blown away by the picture quality. Didn't have much time so I just popped in The GC Wave Race via s-video..goddamn! Better than i expected honestly. Can't wait for the scart to bnc cables to arrive.
 

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
If a 15khz display gives scan lines to 240p content why wouldn't a 31khz display give scan lines to 480p content?

But it's 256p, not 480p.

The "how" kind of makes sense, just not the "why." Can't think of a reason why a 256p 120fps display mode would exist.
 
OK Pop-quiz hotshots

I've got my RGB NES all set up with my XRGBmini

everything is fine EXCEPT that I'm seeing some motion blur. I can live with it but would like to eliminate if possible. Are there any settings I should be looking for?

I think I'm just going to live with this. No settings seem to change it even if I take "game" mode off and fuck around with the motion blur settings. It's not so bad and the picture clarity is amazing.

My personal feeling is that the NES looks best at 1080p w/ scanlines. They look too thick at 720.
 
Noooooooooo!

So, assuming that's a bust, what's the best alternative?

Not sure if this will help but I ordered one of these recently and its been amazing!
Such a difference!
also the breakout is great as I capture the scart video and run the rca into a tv for playing
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RGB-Scart...ts-for-Sony-Playstation-PS1-PS2-/231007352713

Heres a link to what the video looks like, skip to 7mins
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEyDtBcGIxE

hope that helps!
 
Shared this in the B/S/T thread. But, still waiting for my XRGB Mini to arrive:


I live a couple hours from Chicago. So, it was that close to me 10 days ago before taking a detour to Miami and then a trip to Spain. I contacted USPS to see what the fuck is going on. They're looking into it.
e5YuU.gif


Someday maybe I'll have one.
 

Rongolian

Banned
For those who are interested in comparisons of other scalers vs the XRGB Mini, Phonedork uploaded a nice quality video showing comparisons between the Mini and the popular "cheaper" HDMI scaler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e27bNOlh0gM

It's recorded at 720p, 60Hz, and even did a really clean job of capturing XRGB Mini scanlines (but it looks like he has them set very dark)
 

televator

Member
The cheap scaler smudges the shit out of everything. Not just the scrolling background. Pixels totally lose their clarity. It's like HQX filtering.
 
Calling all PVM owners..what's the deal with audio on this monitor? It has 1 audio input and 1 audio output. Is this mono or stereo? And if I want stereo do i have to use external speakers? Should i get a 2 to 1 rca converter? Been trying to find info online all day but can't come across any good answers.
 

Peltz

Member
Calling all PVM owners..what's the deal with audio on this monitor? It has 1 audio input and 1 audio output. Is this mono or stereo? And if I want stereo do i have to use external speakers? Should i get a 2 to 1 rca converter? Been trying to find info online all day but can't come across any good answers.

Yes, it's mono.

Don't mix 2 to 1. It sounds like shit (I tried it) and you could possibly damage your hardware. Get external speakers.

These monitors are not made for sound. In fact some broadcast monitors (but not the PVM line) don't even accept sound input. And, tbh, if you're springing for something like a PVM 20l5 with ebay prices, you shouldn't be cheaping out on the sound, anyway.
 
Hmm good to know! But how would i get stereo then? It's a bit confusing to me, i mean it's only 1 in and 1 out...but i have 2 rca cables just waiting to get plugged in.
 
Yeh that's my other dream set. I think it'll be much harder to find than a 20L5 though and that is saying something.

I've seen a couple 20L5 for sale. I've never even heard of an xm29 being for sale in my area. It is defiantly my white whale right now. Do hear that the geometry can be disappointing going from a pvm/bvm to it though.
 

Peagles

Member
I've seen a couple 20L5 for sale. I've never even heard of an xm29 being for sale in my area. It is defiantly my white whale right now. Do hear that the geometry can be disappointing going from a pvm/bvm to it though.

I've seen one 20L5 but they wouldn't budge on their $700 price point lol.

I know people used to use XM29s as computer monitors here but they were rare even back then, so I doubt I'll ever find one. I'm pretty fussy on geometry and convergence so maybe that's a good thing.
 
Miami, eh? *runs to check mailbox*

Haha. Gotta go to fucking Madrid now. An added oddity, it only took a day to get from Miami to Madrid, but it supposedly left Madrid a week ago tomorrow and hasn't arrived back in the US yet. Granted, I'm just assuming it's coming to the US next. Maybe my XRGB Mini is on a world tour.
 

IrishNinja

Member
Haha. Gotta go to fucking Madrid now. An added oddity, it only took a day to get from Miami to Madrid, but it supposedly left Madrid a week ago tomorrow and hasn't arrived back in the US yet. Granted, I'm just assuming it's coming to the US next. Maybe my XRGB Mini is on a world tour.

maybe! and i shouldve shown you my Duo-R, sat for 11 days in Indiana, then went up & down the eastern seaboard before showing up 2 weeks later, with stories to tell

Ninja is Florida man?

He's not the only one.

yup! me, Mzo, bishopcruz & gunsmithx kicked it with cj_iwakura last weekend, watched him beat Night Trap. good times!
 

IrishNinja

Member
indeed - cj's an hour+ in coral springs, Mzo is in north miami, the rest of us kinda central

to be honest, the biggest GAF meetup i went to was post Zelda concert in orlando, there was like a dozen of us there
 
We talk about 240p a lot, but rarely 480i. Here's a question:

Should 480i games have scanlines?
if you do use them, i'd use really thin scanlines. I find sometimes that helps the emulate some crispness on the framemeister, but it's not necessary
i tend to, unless it looks off/weird...i played most 480i content on an SDTV so that's my take
This is my biggest reason to get a CRT, tbh.
 
Just got my Framemeister. Can I update the firmware from this page http://micomsoft.co.jp/xrgb-mini.htm with the English OSD file (assuming there is one model from Japan and the files are interchangeable?) The site says version 2.0 is new and all sources I see online, including the junkerhq wiki, says 1.10 is the newest? Should I not use 2.0?

I'm using this video; http://micomsoft.co.jp/xrgb-mini.htm as a reference to update. I have everything hooked up, put batteries in the remote, blinked at the characters on the remote and said..

"yup, those are Japanese characters."

edit: anyone have settings for a Genesis VA6, while I'm here?
 
Having issues, pls send halp.

Okay, I got my XRGB-mini hooked up to my Genesis. Updated my firmware to 2.0, OSD displays. Using JP RGB cable -> RGB cable included with the Framemeister. I'm using HDMI-out, directly into my television (Panasonic TC-P50G20 with Game mode enabled).

When I power on my Genesis, the screen turns black, as if the XRGB is sensing output from the Genny, but it stays black. I've tried HDMI out settings on 480p, 720p and 1080p, respectively (powering off and on the Genesis in between each change). I thought for a moment I noticed something on the screen, but I'm uncertain.

Megadrive titles which run in 480i or 576i rather than 240p/288p are currently incompatible with the XRGB Mini for unknown reasons.

I know the game is playing because I can hear title screen music from the front panel headphone jack. My Mega Everdrive cart also does not display a picture.

Thoughts? This is a picture of my cable; http://i.imgur.com/orxGGsw.jpg on a Genesis VA6 , I can take better pictures of my cables, that was from the seller listing I got it from.

edit: okay, I do get video for about a split second/a few seconds when the game starts, but then no more - my TV input HUD appears after that. When I press the OSD on the mini, the menu comes back up. replicated on my monitor and through my AVR (using direct mode). i even downgraded the XRGB to the old firmware and it's still happening.
 

antibolo

Banned
So I was wondering, what's the official "somethingGAF" name of this thread's community?

Personally I refer to it as "RetroRGB-GAF".
 
Okay, update. I reset my XRGB, switched to a shorter HDMI cable, farted around with some settings and now I get a constant picture, but with some sort of syncing or resolution issue - video here; https://youtu.be/1QN_3zl4ILA

The screen jumps up and down and I get horizontal lines running up and down the screen. Thoughts? Please be a simple setting. >_> I feel like I've exhausted all the settings in this thing.
 

Mercutio

Member
Okay, update. I reset my XRGB, switched to a shorter HDMI cable, farted around with some settings and now I get a constant picture, but with some sort of syncing or resolution issue - video here; https://youtu.be/1QN_3zl4ILA

The screen jumps up and down and I get horizontal lines running up and down the screen. Thoughts? Please be a simple setting. >_> I feel like I've exhausted all the settings in this thing.

That's a sync issue. Mess with your sync level until it doesn't do that anymore. The Genesis is sometimes tricky with sync levels. I think with me it usually works best around 21 or so?
 
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