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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
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well, i didn't hear about RGB until last gen. in this day and age, it should be easy to get up to speed on this kind of stuff.
Huggers
Member
Wow. That's mad. I honestly never knew until very recently that RGB wasn't a thing in the States
GayForMaster
Banned
Some people actually believe composite is the intended way to play.
Huggers
Member
You mean they are aware of RGB, but feel composite is the correct way regardless?
sixteen-bit
Member
People argue this in the Genesis thread due to some games having dithered graphics but it's not worth the downgrade to me. At all.
GayForMaster
Banned
That's the worst part, yeah. They're aware of RGB. Composite is ugly, so I really don't understand how anyone would believe the developers intended for fuzzy graphics and bland colours. I used to be composite only myself until I stumbled upon this thread and was simply amazed. I started out first with those piece of shit devices (HDMI to SCART and the scart to YUV boxes), but even those were an improvement. Then I tried the framemeister/Sony PVM and I saw RGB's true potential. I can never go back to composite, and even on an RGB monitor composite still doesn't look nearly as amazing as RGB does.
...But on an HDTV? The fuck?
Still gives me an idea of what I'm missing. That is naturally way cleaner looking than how the Wii U upscales it.
Huggers
Member
So weird. How could that fuzziness be intended. Just an unfortunate result of the entire image going through one AV lead. And as televator said, on an HDTV as well?! Absolute blasphemy!
PumpkinSpice
Banned
It's not that the fuzziness was intended, it's that a lot of developers took advantage of the fuzziness to do pseudo-transparency or to blend two colors together.
Most often this is done with dithering, but in some cases like the pipes in Chemical Plant in Sonic 2 it's done with just vertical lines, which takes good advantage of the low horizontal resolution of RF/composite. In that case in composite the pipes look like they're made out of glass and translucent, with a white sheen. Over RGB, or in emulators, it just looks like there are weird white lines on the pipes.
I don't have a great setup to capture this but here's a simulation using a horizontal Gaussian blur:
RGB:
Composite simulated:
Sonic 1 does something similar with the waterfall, and you'll see this trick used a lot in Genesis games just cause the damn hardware couldn't do transparency and had such a small palette. Probably the one system where, if you can get a good clean output, you might want composite.
Huggers
Member
I think I'd sooner lose the transparency of certain objects than all the vibrance and sharpness of everything else. Each to their own though of course. It's interesting that some Mega Drive developers used it to their advantage. Especially because the Mega Drive kicks out a very solid RGB image
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
I chose the comparison pics in the OP for a reason.
I think it's a decent example of the strengths of both formats. Composite is blurry and mushy as shit, but the glass and shield also look more solid.
While I think blurred dithering patterns can have a nice look, it's not worth it in most circumstances since the effect becomes more pointless the further away you are from the screen anyway.
I didn't know about RGB until last year!!!
So, could anyone advise me on which MegaDrive I should be looking for while shopping in Japan? I'm not 100% sure I'm going to get one - plenty of other stuff on the list - but if I decide to get a MD I don't want to find out later that another model would've had better video or audio output.
I've read the 'best Genesis model' article on retrorgb, but its seems to be focused on Genesis (duh) not (J) MegaDrive.
I've read the 'best Genesis model' article on retrorgb, but its seems to be focused on Genesis (duh) not (J) MegaDrive.
Hilariously, he does mention up scalers and the XRGB mini in his previous room setup video. But he then writes it off, worrying he would need one for each system.
speedlolita
Member
The ones with the EXT port on the back are the ones to get in any region. In PAL land and NTSC-U land these models say "HIGH DEFINITION GRAPHICS" on them too.
I have seen NTSC-J MD without the text but I'm not 100% if that is a later Japanese model or perhaps an Asian one.
I think the EXT port will still be the tell though.
Specifically made sure to get one of the above when I repurchased a MD recently.
Also picked up two official SCART cables.
Happy hunting!
NormalFish
Banned
...what an odd misconception. how would he even arrive at that conclusion...
D.Lo
Member
How do people decide to put their hilariously uninformed ideas out there as some kind of authority on the internet, when that exact same internet allows you to check if you are right in seconds? Literally google "best picture SNES tv" (or in this case "multiple scart").
Yet this imbecile has 150k subscribers. What the fuck.
There was no Scart in Australia (we had the worst of all worlds - PAL but no RGB), but I've been using RGB since the Gamecube. I got a TV with component inputs, saw the difference in picture quality on the GCN, and thought "How do I get other systems to look this good?"
A little bit of research on the 2003 internet led me to a $50 RGB to component converter, and within a couple of months and I had RGB for Saturn, SNES, PS1, Mega Drive, Master System, Dreamcast... Really all that was left was NES and N64 of all the major consoles.
I should have gotten fat, got some stupid facial hair and started a youtube series back then. I'd be a millionaire now.
RadarScope1
Member
I found a Commodore 1702 in my area on eBay. Seller is asking $150, but I'm wondering if I might be able to get it for less for local pickup, or maybe offer something in trade. Problem is, I already have a pretty decent 27-inch Trinitron that I'm not using because I don't have room for a CRT setup anywhere.
My plan for a while now has been to get a Framemeister to use with my plasma TV, and I want to RGB mod my NES to go with. If I invest in the mod and the Framemeister, will I see the benefits of that if I hooked it up to the 1702 or Trinitron at some point?
My plan for a while now has been to get a Framemeister to use with my plasma TV, and I want to RGB mod my NES to go with. If I invest in the mod and the Framemeister, will I see the benefits of that if I hooked it up to the 1702 or Trinitron at some point?
Thanks! I shouldn't have much trouble finding one that fits the bill ... if I buy a MD I'm not looking for LNIB or anything, just functional. I'm going to DenDenTown this time around ... was in Akihabara two years ago. I do plan on getting a SFC in the box, some controllers for various consoles, maybe an orange gameboy player for my gamecube, plus hitting up Bic Camera for some nice headphones and also getting some single-malt whiskey to bring home, so the toy budget is tight. The MegaDrive will just depend on what I find & prices. Fortunately the exchange rate is good right now.
BONKERS
Member
So sad yet true!
I played games over composhit on a 27" CRT that only had Composhit for years.
I also have a 19" GE CRT that only has Composhit that i've used literally my entire life to play games. D: (This one has markings on the case for an S-Video in but no port. Other ports for adjustments too.)
Plus, most folks of age were acutely aware of the RGB monitors we saw everytime we played arcade games.
meitantei_conan
Member
Any recommendations for a good component to HDMI converter? doesn't have to upscale or anything. As long as it converts the signal without any degradation of the image.
entremet
Member
Yep.
I didn't actually know what RGB was, but I always noticed how crisp and sharp arcade games were in comparison to consoles on TV over composite.
It was more than just poor ports.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
If you're in Canada, this thing is pretty good. Just does ADC and forwards to HDMI at whatever the source resolution, at full YCbCr 4:4:4. Even handles 240p if your TV/monitor can take it. For some reason it only does SPDIF audio though.
theSlacker
Member
Honestly I always thought it was just a difference in quality between the tv sets/monitors. Didn't even realize it was an input difference. I went from some really shitty TVs to better ones when growing up so I thought I saw the same difference in quality without ever changing input and translated that to arcades as well.
I don't know if this is the thread for it, but I've been thinking about getting an open frame RGB monitor again. Has anyone had any experience with the makvision units happ are selling these days?
I'm specifically looking at: http://na.suzohapp.com/all_catalogs/monitors/49-2715-00
I'm specifically looking at: http://na.suzohapp.com/all_catalogs/monitors/49-2715-00
meitantei_conan
Member
Thanks I will give this a try.
IrishNinja
Member
well, shit...that's a valid concern
someone should donate 10 XRGB's and a few sega power strips so he can at least have everything hooked up right (composite, widescreen upscaled to 1080i)
Laws00
Member
Anybody have suggestions on wii component cables besides the official one?
Any good off brand recommended I should buy?
I had the radio shack ones but I don't remember what the resolution looked like. I have them to a friend who needed cables for his wii and was stuck with composite lol
Any good off brand recommended I should buy?
I had the radio shack ones but I don't remember what the resolution looked like. I have them to a friend who needed cables for his wii and was stuck with composite lol
megamanfan1500
Neo Member
I've actually tried these cables: http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=114&cp_id=11404&cs_id=1140401&p_id=5689&seq=1&format=2
They are Monoprice brand, and are actually very close to the official cables in terms of video quality. Unfortunately, they are sold out at the moment, but are set to restock on 5/15/15
NormalFish
Banned
yeah I've heard good things about the monoprice cables. They're not as good as OEM, but they're still pretty stellar.
Fox Mulder
Member
Me too, but I also got my 29 inch pvm for $20 at a thrift store.
Buying specific cables and modded consoles adds up though.
BONKERS
Member
I played a shit ton of arcade games growing up. Not ever once knowing what kind of display signal they used. Only thing of RGB that I knew was from computer monitors haha..
I never heard of RGB until way into the 2000s. And I grew up in the country that invented RGB Scart. I just knew some consoles had terrible fuzzy display (in France, the PS1 was sold with Composite and a Scart adapter, while the Saturn had an RGB Scart cable in the box). I kind of knew Scart was better, but I had no idea why, and the fact that you could feed Composite, S-Video and RGB in the same socket with an adapter probably made it more confusing.
In fact, most people in my country don't know the difference between real Scart (RGB) and Composite with a Scart adapter. So many times I tried to buy a Scart cable in shops only to have the seller try to force a Composite cable with an adapter on me.
In fact, most people in my country don't know the difference between real Scart (RGB) and Composite with a Scart adapter. So many times I tried to buy a Scart cable in shops only to have the seller try to force a Composite cable with an adapter on me.
Fox Mulder
Member
I dint know about rgb until a few years ago. Still played composite as recently as the early 360 models that didn't have a hdmi port.
geniusbits
Member
Lulz about Metal Jesus Rocks.
Finally took a phone pic of Genesis through SCART>>>FM on my 720p LCD projection TV.
I tried some profiles but the ones from that one guy don't use scan lines and it was all funky, so I hit reset on the FM remote and just played with it a bit from there. Probably can be tweaked quite a bit but I think it looks ok. Weird aside, I put it on real quick to show a friend and it looked all blued out. Didn't have time to look at it really so I don't know if something changed or what, anyone have that happen before?
After years of debating and trying to find an emulation set-up to my liking, I've finally decided to go ahead and get an XRGB mini, along with all the bells and whistles to get my PAL systems to an optimal video output. I've started my quest by ordering the RGB mod for the regular PAL N64 model, which my brother-in-law is going to install. I've also just placed an order at consolegoods.co.uk for a SNES PAL RGB Scart cable and a GameCube PAL RGB Scart cable (which is supposed to work with the modded N64).
So now I'm on the market for the XRGB mini itself. The OP is very insightful, and skimming through the thread, I've seen some people dealing with a guy named Yakumo, who's account has unfortunately been banned. However, he's still selling the things. Can someone vouch for him? Or should I just go with Solaris Japan?
And I'm also looking for a good way to connect multiple Euro Scart cables to a single JP-21. I've seen this cable on retrogamingcables.co.uk but I'm not sure if it's something I need in the first place (because I think there's a scart to jp21 converter in the package with the XRGB mini) and if so, if I'll need the USB extra powered version. Besides that, I'm also going to need a switch. Is the Hama AV100S any good? It's the only decently priced one I can find, but it's passive, which makes me a bit weary to buy it.
Thanks for the insightful debate so far and I hope someone can answer my questions.
So now I'm on the market for the XRGB mini itself. The OP is very insightful, and skimming through the thread, I've seen some people dealing with a guy named Yakumo, who's account has unfortunately been banned. However, he's still selling the things. Can someone vouch for him? Or should I just go with Solaris Japan?
And I'm also looking for a good way to connect multiple Euro Scart cables to a single JP-21. I've seen this cable on retrogamingcables.co.uk but I'm not sure if it's something I need in the first place (because I think there's a scart to jp21 converter in the package with the XRGB mini) and if so, if I'll need the USB extra powered version. Besides that, I'm also going to need a switch. Is the Hama AV100S any good? It's the only decently priced one I can find, but it's passive, which makes me a bit weary to buy it.
Thanks for the insightful debate so far and I hope someone can answer my questions.
Charles Brandon
Member
I've just done this.
Buy from Solaris.
You do need another cable otherwise your euro scart cables will be incompatible. I got the sync stripper version of that cable you linked to (unpowered). Works fine with me NES and SNES.
I also bought that scart switch, or at least one that looks exactly like it. It seems fine but...since I started using it I get an occasional what-looks-like a sync glitch thing. It's not enough to ruin the experience though. And it may be due to the other scart cable I bought instead of the switch.
Consider using NTSC consoles
This really needs to be considered on a per-console basis.
Hero_of_the_Day
Member
Got mine from Solaris. Paid the extra $15 for their fastest shipping. Was in my hands in less than a week.
Good luck finding a good switcher. I can't find one in stock anywhere. At least in the US, and one with four inputs.
Charles Brandon
Member
Oh really? Are there advantages to pal?
I think it's easy to say, "Why not get an RGB setup for your retro consoles?" for people that aren't initiated. The problem is it's not that easy or simple. If you live in the US you can't just buy a cable and get RGB. I think for people who eventually decide they want better picture take those leaps to get RGB whether it be a SCART converter or SCART TV.
I only got into it within the last year as I really thought, "Hey these old video games could look really good with component, how do I achieve that?"
I bought a SCART to YUV converter in order to do that and have had much success with it. All I'm saying is that to most people they're not aware of it because they all have flat panel TVs instead of owning a CRT for retro stuff. I own 2 CRTs because to me they're on a totally different level in terms of the picture you can get out of retro consoles. Hell, my N64 through composite actually looks decent on my CRT (not amazing, but still has a tolerable picture). I know that same console through composite on an HDTV would look horrendous.
I only got into it within the last year as I really thought, "Hey these old video games could look really good with component, how do I achieve that?"
I bought a SCART to YUV converter in order to do that and have had much success with it. All I'm saying is that to most people they're not aware of it because they all have flat panel TVs instead of owning a CRT for retro stuff. I own 2 CRTs because to me they're on a totally different level in terms of the picture you can get out of retro consoles. Hell, my N64 through composite actually looks decent on my CRT (not amazing, but still has a tolerable picture). I know that same console through composite on an HDTV would look horrendous.
Huggers
Member
This would suck. Still right now in the UK I can get a consumer grade CRT with more than one RGB input for next to nothing from auction sites or Gumtree within driving distance. PVM/BVM's can be had relatively easy too if you are prepared to travel a bit or are in the Londen area.
NormalFish
Banned
A place like the UK would be better than most of the US even if RGB wasn't standard on consumer sets. I imagine it would be much easier to find them in a denser population like that.
The NTSC Gamecube and Wii don't output RGB.
Only a few select European SMS2 output RGB natively.
You are much more likely to get a Scart cable in a european bundle.
If you factor in modding, there are very few reasons to import a console from another continent instead of getting a cheap local one at a flea market. The only reason I could think of is if the carts are physically different between regions, like the US SNES or the Japanese Famicom.
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