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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!

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Well, I mean, I already have the option of springing for that exact PVM I listed at that price I listed (again, for new page: PVM-1340 @ $20), so being hard to track down isn't the issue. Not being entirely sure what rabbit hole I'd be diving into by doing the Buy-It-Now is more the issue. (And finding a consumer-grade Trinitron with component input would also be starting from square one, although I expect it'd be easier to find than PVMs would be.)

It doesn't list hours used, although I suppose I could ask about that.
 

SegaShack

Member
I am trying to find a decent 20" PVM in the Los Angeles/Orange County area. I have a 14" but its starting to get a little too small for my tastes. I have been on the hunt for about a year and this SHOULD BE THE TOWN to get old production equipment. Yet craigs list has been the only place that reliably gets PVMs that I know of. Anyone know where I should be looking in the LA area?

I got my PVM 20L5 in LA a bit over a year ago and found it on ebay (it was pick up only though). Only $75 and it works great, goes up to 1080i too. Check out ebay stuff for your area.
 

D.Lo

Member
Okay here's my write up on the RF to VGA box:

How to play NTSC-J RF-only consoles on PAL televisions

rfturtles_4203.jpg

rfturtles_4204.jpg
 

televator

Member
R ...F? Radio freq?

Now I'm one to entertain any tech talk under the sun but why RF? What's the goal in this setup? Help me here... I'm drawing a big WUT in my mind.
 

kami_sama

Member
R ...F? Radio freq?

Now I'm one to entertain any tech talk under the sun but why RF? What's the goal in this setup? Help me here... I'm drawing a big WUT in my mind.
A lot of retro consoles used the antenna connection to send the image to the TV. I suppose it is a setup to use other connections.
 

D.Lo

Member
Many older consoles are RF ONLY.

Without doing mods (and I'm not modding rare items that are 40 years old) this is the only way you can use some of them at all unless you have an NTSC TV.

This kind of device will become even more important in the future, as screens phase out receiving any analogue TV signals as the countries they're sold in go digital-only.
 

missile

Member
I have this plan to build a retro multicade cabinet using a Sony KV-32FV310 and have some questions about repair/refurbishing a CRT. First of all the picture seems to have bowing at the top and bottom that I tried to capture:

IMG_2002.jpg

IMG_2001.jpg


Those scan lines are impressive though aren't they? Images are from Riven PS1 disc being played on a PS2 connected via component. Any way, so there is the bowing problem, and in general I wanted to "go over" the TV before going to the trouble of putting it in a big setup. I wanted to replace anything I could, such as capacitors or resistors etc., calibrate it as thoroughly as I can, and anything else that would both prolong it's life and improve the image the best it can be.

My question is, should I try and tackle this on my own or take it to an electronics repair place? And if the answer is on my own, does any one have some resources for getting started? I have some engineer friends and we were just going to start taking it apart and checking it out and looking at the caps and things and go from there seeing if we could find replacements, find the pots to mess with the image, etc. Lastly, if I was going to take it to a repair place, do you think they would be able to do what I want with it or would they just give it a quick look and say it's good enough? As you all should understand, my goal is not to have a "working" set but to get it to the best it can be, even if it costs a little extra.

P.S. - PS3 via component @480i looked pretty bad. I was surprised, especially during motion. We were playing "The Cave."

Watch the high-voltage circuit in the/a TV and esp. the leftover charges while
the TV is off! If you have no idea about it, don't touch the TV in any way
from the inside, go to a TV engineer instead! You can get shocked to death or
get paralyzed! Big tubes run at a pretty high voltage, about 25kV! Don't mess
with it! Having said that I would do as you say in replacing all the caps and
resistors because it will extend life of the tube and also can increase
picture quality again. However there is also a chance to mess up the signals
running through the circuits making the picture look worse in the end. Why?
Well, some of the TV circuits are pretty tight on the capacities etc. used. Due
to bad soldering, bad wiring etc. you may add additional parasite capacities
which will most often increase the total capacity of the given circuit. And
this can lead, for example, to a dumping of the high-frequencies of the signal
running across. Hence, a video signal may lose its higher frequencies and as
such the picture becomes less sharp. Usually one can't prevent such a
situation of not introducing some parasite capacities or some additional
induction unless you use original components and solder them like in the
factory. However, some circuits allow for more tolerance than others. But when
ever there is high-frequency in a circuit you can be rest assured that the
components are tightly designed with respect to each other. This may go as far
as not being able to simply replace or even move a wire because of its
specific capacity and inductance under high-frequency which could be part of
the design process with respect to all other components of the circuit in
question. Sounds difficult, but not so much for an TV engineer/technician
because (s)he has something more on the table and a skill which isn't easy to
acquire, i.e. being able to use an oscilloscope while being able to
re-tuning/balancing the circuit after having installed all the new components.
And this re-tuning is the most difficult part because you literally need to
understand how each component works (esp. under high-frequency). And you also
need to know how the circuits in a TV are supposed work to judge the curves
seen on the oscilloscope. That's what you pay for. And it's well spent!

I hope I haven't smashed your enthusiasm. Well, if you are not that skilled
yet want to proceed, try to start with one of these old
small/mini/pocket/mobile/camping TVs. Use the smallest one you can get,
because they will run on a lower high-voltage, about 5kV to 10kV (still
dangerous, mind you!), and are easy to deal with. A good exercise is to
entirely decompose and desolder the whole tube and later compose and solder it
together again seeing if you get the same (if any xD) picture. If this works,
you may replace parts with new ones and may also start to measure if the new
component produces a similar/better characteristic -- while getting more and
more familiar with the circuit and its peculiarities. If you can handle it,
you may try one of the big guns.
 
No, you won't see improved visuals as the PS3 already scales ps1 and ps2 games and cannot even output PS1 games in 240p (e.g. the native resolution for 99.9% of the PS1 library). If you're going to use a PS3, just use the HDMI cable for best possible lossless quality.

And you're right, PS1/PS2 to a CRT is the best route if you plan to have the an authentic experience. If you can't get that, then connecting them to a Framemeister is still far better than anything that the PS3 could provide for 240p gaming. The only time when PS3 is better than a framemeister is for games where the resolution switches during gameplay such as accessing the menu in Chrono Cross. Any such change in resolution will cause the framemeister to "black out" for a few seconds as it adjusts and re-handshakes with the source device.

In other words, for

240p gaming:
PS1/2 to CRT> PS1/2 to Framemeister > PS3

480i gaming:
PS2 to CRT > PS2 to Framemeister = PS3

Games that switch between 240p to 480i mid game:
PS1/2 to CRT > PS3 > PS1/2 to Framemeister

Thanks Peltz as always!

So ive been loving this little beast of a mini but testing it out on my nes (via composite) the visuals look incredibly jumpy/jitttery and arguably looks worse than directly inputting it directly through the tv...Is this a known issue for composite connection of nes thru the device or are my settings flawed?

Man I really need a RGB mod service

Baphomet please
 

Peltz

Member
Thanks Peltz as always!

So ive been loving this little beast of a mini but testing it out on my nes (via composite) the visuals look incredibly jumpy/jitttery and arguably looks worse than directly inputting it directly through the tv...Is this a known issue for composite connection of nes thru the device or are my settings flawed?

Man I really need a RGB mod service

Baphomet please

You can't make composite look good but I found that the Framemeister does clean it up slightly.
 

D.Lo

Member
Composite looks much better on a CRT than on the Framemeister.

But better on the Framemeister than direct to most HDTVs of course.
 

Peltz

Member
Composite looks much better on a CRT than on the Framemeister.

But better on the Framemeister than direct to most HDTVs of course.

And certain CRTs are much better than others at displaying composite, too. PVMs do a great job, but my friend has a consumer Sony set that is some of cleanest looking composite I've ever seen.
 

missile

Member
Okay here's my write up on the RF to VGA box:

How to play NTSC-J RF-only consoles on PAL televisions
Thx for the write up! Seems they use some better filters on the RF signal.

Well, it's plausible that a VCR can also produce a good composite video
signal. But there might be a catch. Since the video bandwidth of a VCR tape is
less than NTSC/PAL it might be possible that the composite video runs through
such VCR-tape filters before leaving the device, dumping down the higher video
frequencies coming along with the RF signal blurring the picture to some
degree. /speculation

So if the VCRs RF filters and amplifiers are good and if the resulting
composite video signal leaves the port untouched, then you will get the
original composite video signal back without any distortions an RF signal may
undergo while running through the air. Using the correct wire (impedance
matching) you will also get no phase distortions (ghosting, plastic) from the
wire while also delivering the VCR the highest signal strength possible which
eases any amplification in the process and as such reduces noise.
 
Well, it's plausible that a VCR can also produce a good composite video
signal. But there might be a catch. Since the video bandwidth of a VCR tape is
less than NTSC/PAL it might be possible that the composite video runs through
such VCR-tape filters before leaving the device, dumping down the higher video
frequencies coming along with the RF signal blurring the picture to some
degree. /speculation

Definitely not. We always used to run our cable signal into the VCR and then the VCR out to the TV. It looked identical to cable direct.
 

IrishNinja

Member
Composite looks much better on a CRT than on the Framemeister.

But better on the Framemeister than direct to most HDTVs of course.

^this
also i know we've said it to death, but system to system it's crazy different. like, the turbografx composite output really makes the genesis' look like butt

And certain CRTs are much better than others at displaying composite, too. PVMs do a great job, but my friend has a consumer Sony set that is some of cleanest looking composite I've ever seen.

id love to see pics of this sometime!
 

Khaz

Member

BTails

Member
^this
also i know we've said it to death, but system to system it's crazy different. like, the turbografx composite output really makes the genesis' look like butt

Yup, I remember being really impressed by the Composite out of my US Saturn before I got my SCART cable.
 

Madao

Member
at least a VCR is a very easy way to get a splitter for old stuff. that's how i initially captured video back when i began making the transition from VHS to Capture Card recording (i had a cheap internal Capture card that did composite before i had a DVD recorder. it was pretty good and i still have it but doesn't work with my current PC)
 
You can't make composite look good but I found that the Framemeister does clean it up slightly.

Composite looks much better on a CRT than on the Framemeister.

But better on the Framemeister than direct to most HDTVs of course.

You know I might upload some footage but specifically my nes through the mini looks significantly worse than my default HDTV scaling :/ I've found this model of tv to be pretty good for retro signals surprisingly
 

D.Lo

Member
Very nice. It's like a Framemeister but for RF only, and at a fraction of the price. It does seem to have the blurring of the background when scrolling, like those cheap Scart to HDMI upscalers. Did you notice any significant input lag?

It's this, right?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hotter-Exte...m-Receiver-Tuner-HDTV-1900-1200-/261621223535
No noticeable lag, though I didn't exactly test lag.

It's not really blurry, just dot crawl. Much better than composite on an HDTV.

Actually, the scaling from the composite inputs is decent too. Comparable to the FM, so if you're only using a non-modded NES this is a much better deal.

Yeah that's the box.
 

D.Lo

Member
Mind taking one or two close-ups of the dot patten?
You can't photograph dot crawl, it only happens with movement. You can see it in the video.

Dot pattern you can see in the close ups in the article. Click on them they're big photos.
 

CBTech

Member
I'm looking for an audio solution for my retro gaming. I'm using a CRT for my retro gaming, but I'm not happy with the sound quality of the set. Do you know of any small form-factor receivers that can handle composite and component video output? I'd like to avoid a large receiver if I can avoid it.
 
Oh...

Yeah...

Anyway, I guess I just need to find a small receiver then for the audio.

I bought this cheapy Lepai LP-2020A+ analog-only stereo amplifier a couple years ago. It works pretty well paired with a couple of decent bookshelf speakers. Very, very basic but the price is right ($25!), it's nice and small (so small that I just screwed it onto the back of my TV stand), it doesn't use much electricity, and it can put out decently loud audio.

Currently I'm just using analog audio out from my TV to this. For consoles direct it might be a bit annoying since you'd have to either swap the RCA jacks or get some sort of switcher.

Edit: Also nice is that if you're not in the US there are a ton of these on ebay direct from China, free shipping.
 

Mega

Banned
A few months back I already had powered speakers and so Khaz recommended the Rolls MX42 passive mixer. It worked out well. I had a scart switch with 3 consoles hooked up to one input and a few more stray consoles on the other inputs.

If you have passive speakers, I second Sheepy's recommendation or one of the similar little boxes. Then get a cheap AV RCA switch with a bunch of inputs to go between your consoles and the amp/speakers. There are a few 8 in 1 boxes on Amazon that would do the job.
 
Ran the 240p test suite on my Wii U. 240p to 480p with scanlines rendered on the vWii, upscaled to 1080p by the Wii U, output via HDMI to the Kuro plasma in dot by dot mode. Drop shadow test = perfect.

Doesn't look as good as bSNES with EasyMode CRT shaders on the same Kuro, but that's not the point.

The point is, ugh, what a reminder as to how much better Nintendo could be doing with how they render VC games. Frustrating.

 

IrishNinja

Member
yeah but i got this 3D model that's got too much input lag =/

forget the model # but i did all i could to turn post-processing stuff off from the menus...great darks/image quality though, a shame
 
Holy shit at actually reversing N64's native blur filter! Wow!

That HDMI mod is insane. I have 3 N64s.... and I think I may now need to mod one with the new tech.

Yeah, I didn't even know that that was possible. I'm real happy with my rgb modded n64 though so will wait to see if that is possible with no input lag in rgb, and not just though the hdmi mod.
 

Grief.exe

Member
I got myself this amplifier, mainly because it had remote control and headphones. It also has optical (for the PS2) bluetooth, and a subwoofer out.
Only one RCA in, but combined with a passive mixer and a Scart switch box, it works wonders.

2 X 100Watt 6 Ohm Class D Audio Amplifier Explorer w Bluetooth, Remote Control & MW 24V 120W Power Adapter
There are cheaper models without the bluetooth, power supply, etc.

This model is frequently recomended by audiophiles as a good, cheap solution. No bluetooth, same manufacturer has other models with headphone support.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00F0H8TOC/?tag=neogaf0e-20


Newest episode in Life in Gaming talks about the ultra HDMI mod for N64

https://youtu.be/qpy1M6v2_MI?t=12m2s

Came here to post this, great episode.

I personally prefer to just emulate post-SNES games as the IQ can become significantly better through software solutions, but this looks great for playing on native hardware.
 

Mega

Banned
Newest episode in Life in Gaming talks about the ultra HDMI mod for N64

https://youtu.be/qpy1M6v2_MI?t=12m2s

That looks great. I have always wanted that unfiltered look from N64 games after playing Mario 64 DS.

Is it possible to connect an HDMI source to a CRT (convertor)? Because I think this + a CRT that can handle 480p should give the best N64 picture ever (looks too pixelated on a big HDTV). I like my RGB N64 but the blur/smearing still diminish some of its pluses, easily the weakest RGB I've seen.
 

Peltz

Member
That looks great. I have always wanted that unfiltered look from N64 games after playing Mario 64 DS.

Is it possible to connect an HDMI source to a CRT (convertor)? Because I think this + a CRT that can handle 480p should give the best N64 picture ever (looks too pixelated on a big HDTV). I like my RGB N64 but the blur/smearing still diminish some of its pluses, easily the weakest RGB I've seen.

A very few CRTs can take HDMI, or so I've heard. It may be worth investigating as a shot in the dark.
 
That looks great. I have always wanted that unfiltered look from N64 games after playing Mario 64 DS.

Is it possible to connect an HDMI source to a CRT (convertor)? Because I think this + a CRT that can handle 480p should give the best N64 picture ever (looks too pixelated on a big HDTV). I like my RGB N64 but the blur/smearing still diminish some of its pluses, easily the weakest RGB I've seen.

Could always get CRT monitor with DVI input + a passive HDMI to DVI converter.
 
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