FiveMinuteHero
Member
Has anyone tested Framemeister scanlines at native 1080p using the latest firmware? (2.02) - how does it compare to 720p?
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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
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Not sure this is the right thread, but I figured I may find some clue here.
Is it normal to get what it looks like jail bars, running PSone games on a PS2 (texture and loading set to normal)? The weird thing is, it doesn't happen with all games... 2D games look fine, and not every 3D game shows them on screen. Dead or Alive, for example, looks perfect, while Tekken 3 and Gran Turismo 2 produce some noticeable vertical bars, especially on grey/darker textures. I'm playing on a Trinitron CRT TV if that can help.
Thanks in advance, guys. ^_-
Is it normal to get what it looks like jail bars, running PSone games on a PS2 (texture and loading set to normal)? The weird thing is, it doesn't happen with all games... 2D games look fine, and not every 3D game shows them on screen. Dead or Alive, for example, looks perfect, while Tekken 3 and Gran Turismo 2 produce some noticeable vertical bars, especially on grey/darker textures. I'm playing on a Trinitron CRT TV if that can help.
Thanks in advance, guys. ^_-
PumpkinSpice
Banned
Poorly.
You can fiddle with zoom settings or use a profile to make it better but even then the thickness of the lines just looks wrong.
FiveMinuteHero
Member
NormalFish
Banned
Some people like the 1080p scanlines. I wouldn't write them off until you try them out.
Not true at all, the latest firmware plus the Firebrand 4x profile settings totally fix scanlines in 1080p mode. I'm now playing exclusively in 1080p and scanlines look absolutely amazing!
Kiddy Dong
Member
What type of cables are you using? What brand?
Beer Monkey
Member
Does anybody have any insight with the current state of PC emulation latency using 240p VGA? Want to build an emulation box but only if latency is 2 frames or less.
I use an official Sony RGB cable for the PS2.
Crossposting from the PS1 collecting thread, to add more details:
I play my PlayStation games on a fat PS2 + Trinitron CRT TV (not that intensively anymore, hence why I literally just noticed the issue), with both speed and texture set to standard. Is it normal that some titles show what it looks like jail bars - especially on grey or not-so-bright textures/colors - and others don't?
Examples. Every single 2D game I've tried so far, looks fine (i.e. Guitly Gear, Gunners Heaven, Angel Eyes...), as well a some 3D game such as Dead or Alive and Toshinden 2. By 'fine', I mean they look exactly like I remember them looking on a genuine PlayStation, crisp and clean.
Then, on the other hand, there are Tekken 3, Chase the Express and Gran Turismo 2 (once again, out of those I tested), which show prominent jail bars, both on actual textures and 2D backdrops.
It's not random, they're always there with those titles, in the same spots, with the same intensity. Are some games meant to look like that? Does it have anything to do with their screen resolution? Unfortunately it's ages I don't own a PlayStation anymore, so I'm not able to double check on that system.
---Edit---
I just realized it happens with those games that have rampant dithering to begin with. I wonder if that - plus RGB sharpness and TV resolution - may be the reason of the jail bars artifact.
Baller.
Anyway, I don't see jailbars on any of my games. Is it possible to upload a photo of what you're seeing?
I've seen the PS2 does produce some artifacts like that when playing PSX games, I don't think it can be remedied other than by playing on a real PSX :/
It's still visible, but I apologise for the crappy cellphone quality and refresh artifacts. ^^;
You can see the subtle vertical lines inside the grey cloud I circled.
In this stage, they are all over the place. You can see them in the sky, as well as on the grass and on top of the mountains in the background.
Gran Turismo 2 and Chase the Express show the very same pattern, specifically on grey areas.
Thanks!
An yeah, it honestly doesn't look like a malfunction, yet I never noticed it before (must confess I never tried those games before either, since I got them all yesterday).
geniusbits
Member
Just got a PS4 and plugged it into the HDMI in on my Framemeister. Does that change the video? I tried clicking scan lines and couldn't add them, but the screen did sync in and out when I changed video processing settings, like natural to picture. I can't quite tell if it changed the way the video looked though, and I am loathe to try plugging the PS4 in back and forth direct and through Framemeister to try and tell if there is a difference. Anyone have that set up?
PumpkinSpice
Banned
If you have HDMI direct on, you can't add anything but there should be no latency. If you turn that setting off you can add scanlines/processing but you'll at at least a frame of latency.
Phonedork posted a new video!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yeKMo6mcAo
Talks about:
1. The Sony BVM 20F1U
2. Sync On Green
3. The Extron Matrix Switcher
4. The Ultra HDMI Review
5. The HIDEF NES Review
6. 480I Resolution VS 240P
7. Integer Scaling
8. Sync Combining
Just started watching... damn, no one records video of a CRT running 240p games better than this guy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yeKMo6mcAo
Talks about:
1. The Sony BVM 20F1U
2. Sync On Green
3. The Extron Matrix Switcher
4. The Ultra HDMI Review
5. The HIDEF NES Review
6. 480I Resolution VS 240P
7. Integer Scaling
8. Sync Combining
Just started watching... damn, no one records video of a CRT running 240p games better than this guy.
NormalFish
Banned
noice! Love me some phonedork
Too bad sync on green is borked on Xbox. Looks like a VGA mod is a must for RGB. Also, his color space comparisons don't seem accurate. Gamma/luminance levels aren't inherently inferior or superior between RGB and YPbPr. In fact YCbCr contains the full luminance information from RGB. Color resolution is different though. Where there might be some color bleed or less defined boundaries between solid colors, RGB maintains sharp edges. I'm pretty sure the difference in brightness between his 2 captures simply comes down to different calibration settings between 2 different inputs. A different input pretty much always necessitates different settings.
well, they haven't put HDCP in their console yet. imo they don't put TV out in their handhelds because it's extra cost and penny pinching has been their undoing this whole gen.
sorry about the delay but i got around and redid the pics with corrected settings. i managed to get very close to the HDMI N64's look with the RGB N64 + FM.
like in the first attempt, i did 2 sets of pics. first set is just the image output in 1080p with as few effects active as possible. the FM scaling settings are HScaling=5 and VScaling=7
RGB N64
HDMI N64 (De-Blur on)
HDMI N64 (De-Blur off)
second set has comparisons using 1:1 modes. for HDMI N64 that'd be Sharp Pixels while for the RGB one it's the Smart x2 image mode from the Mini.
RGB N64
HDMI N64 (De-Blur on)
HDMI N64 (De-Blur off)
i hope i didn't screw up something this time.
NormalFish
Banned
I noted this too. I think it's an issue with the XRGB. I experienced something similar when I switched from component to RGB on my own PS2. The XRGB handles the color totally differently. I really don't understand why it's such a massive jump, but if I leave settings the same and swap between them on the same resolution and scaling options, the color for one of them is always completely fucked.
That aside, amazing video as usual. His take on the N64's graphics are pretty much identical to my own, so I love hearing him talk about it. Very validating lol.
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Commented on the video. Perhaps someone with a bit more knowledge than I can figure it out.
After phonedork's vid, I have no idea when I'll get to an Ultra HDMI N64 as I seem to be fine with my RGB N64, plus all that work to get games looking like that is a hassle for me, though it helps at least.
In most cases, I rather just leave the way the games look for consistency...that's just me though.
In most cases, I rather just leave the way the games look for consistency...that's just me though.
NormalFish
Banned
There seems to be quite a bit of interest in a solution for deblur on RGB (either external or internal, I'm not sure what the state of it is). I'm holding out for that, since it might be less invasive or totally external. Not to mention cheaper and more conducive with my set up.
also, here's the other HDMI N64 vids i recoreded the other day.
F-Zero X DD-2 Cup
Zelda Majora's Mask
Star Fox 64
Super Mario 64
Super Smash Bros.
Ocarina of Time Beta Quest (a rom hack)
and a simple input lag test i did. this is the best i can do with my equipment:
input lag test
F-Zero X DD-2 Cup
Zelda Majora's Mask
Star Fox 64
Super Mario 64
Super Smash Bros.
Ocarina of Time Beta Quest (a rom hack)
and a simple input lag test i did. this is the best i can do with my equipment:
input lag test
Yeah, overall, it's a fantastic video. Much more informative that the tripe that passes for analysis on other sources. Phonedork, MLiG, really get into the nerdy dirty details of display info.
To your other point though RGB and component will always handle differently on the Mini because the Mini is internally 4:2:2. That means RGB has to be fucked with and that's where the mini has some issues resulting in some slight artifacts like a red color pixel shift. Component is already 4:2:2, so it should pass through unaltered by the Mini's internal color space conversion.
That would be amazing if that happens, it needs to come someday as well.
Wow! These look fantastic! I'll have to review them up on my plasma later. Thanks!
NormalFish
Banned
I'm not sure it's just that. The mini seems to handle some things really stangely in general. For example, the "movie" setting has a noise filter inherently on the setting. On component, it's almost invisible. On RGB, it's plain as day and greatly contributes to fucking up the colors.
You're almost certainly right that the biggest issue is the way the mini handles color space in general, though.
I noticed this too. In one of his side by side Guilty Gear comparisons, the RGB looked more saturated. In the next one, I don't think he properly calibrated the RGB gain levels so that the colors looked very muted next to Component's settings or manual overrides (brightness, contrast chroma, etc). I've seen that come up in this thread with people asking why their (non-adjusted) RGB looks like crap next to other modes.
I was doing a simple visual comparison between Yoshi's Island on RGB SNES vs Yoshi's Island on GC Component, starting off with the biased expectation that RGB/original hardware would blow the other away. The latter initially looked bland and washed out, I could have ended there and concluded RGB the clear winner... but I was able to dial it in so that I couldn't tell the two of them apart on the same monitor AND across two different monitors. If I could do that by hand, imagine a professional with the CRT calibration tools we no longer have. I think his results in that one segment of the video are exaggerated and inaccurate. *shrug*
It's not a lot of work really, he just went into a lot of detail for the sake of explaining in his video. Hook up the system to your display with one cable, boot up, tweak a few menu settings like de-blur, sharp pixels, etc. and youre done. It's very brief. I like that he used Doom 64 because in my initial impressions that was one the standout games that benefited from the mod.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
Huh, maybe that's why I found "Movie" to have far more accurate colors. I was running on s-video. I haven't tried comparing Natural and Movie over RGB, maybe I could hook up my PS2 that way.
The FM definitely does a lot of things weird. There are also a ton of things about the interface that just bug me. It really needs a good 3.0 version with some big tweaks. I mean clearly it's the best thing available right now but the software and the defaults are just insanely annoying.
For example, realistically most of the options are useless. Most people would just want to have like maybe a few profiles shared across all inputs. Ideally it would auto switch all my settings over to 480i appropriate settings (good deinterlacing on + video scaling + no scanlines) when the input switches to 480i, same with switches to 480p and 240p and etc. Allow a few tweaks for someone who wants to tweak color globally for their display and color/noise tweaks per input. That with a few presets to be set with those colored buttons on the bottom of the remote and they'd be saving me a lot of time digging into the menu with every system change.
Not to mention the desyncing issues.
NormalFish
Banned
Yup. I love the device, but it has a lot of weird quirks.
As far as your svideo movie setting comment, I think you might be right. It took me ages to figure out why it looked so nice on component, but then when I swapped to RGB I was horribly unimpressed with the palette. A while back I posted a comparison that shows off the filter. Let me try to find it.
Yeah, here we go. Comparison between Movie and Natural on a PS2 via RGB with luma for sync.
not exactly what needs to be compared, but you can see on the "RGB" background how it messes with the colors. On some games it's more pronounced that others, but essentially it lightens the over all image. On the orange, you can see that it sometimes looks like lots of artifacts.
And I don't notice it at all on component. Maybe I'll go back and reevaluate it at some point, but I haven't been using my framemeister these days, really. Been handhelds and PC focused.
Yeah but you have to fiddle around with each game though because some games may look better/worse with said settings and such.
Here's a link, this is the closest we got:
http://assemblergames.com/l/threads/is-it-possible-to-disable-anti-aliasing-in-n64-games-via-gameshark-cheats.59916/
4:2:2? What does that mean?
Kiddy Dong
Member
Holy shit, I love you phonedork. I had no idea you could force RGB on an NTSC Wii, and I've been using USB loader GX this whole damn time. This changes everything!
NormalFish
Banned
I thought there was a way (albeit a bit more 'dangerous') that allowed you to do the same with discs, too. not sure, though. I haven't bothered to look in to it in any detail.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
Chroma subsampling. So color accuracy is reduced as the resolution for the color info is cut in half.
Apologies, but I'm not sure I believe it since the only source I can find for this is Fudoh's review and he's been wrong before.
I'd like to get a datasheet on the Marvell processor before being 100% certain this is the case, but I can't find one online. Maybe I should email them from my work email...
4:2:2 is the standard video format of a compressed RGB source into component. You can look at it as: Y:Cr1:Cr2. Y = luminance resolution/sample rate. Cr1 = horizontal color resolution in odd lines/chroma sample rate, Cr2 = horizontal color resolution in even lines/chroma sample rate
A value of 4 is uncompressed data from the RGB source
Any value above zero in both Chroma samples = full vertical resolution
However values of 2 is half the horizontal resolution. Remember 4 is full so 2 is half.
So 4:2:2 is full uncompressed luminance, half horizontal color resolution (odd lines), half horizontal color resolution (even lines).
What this means in the FM, is that it unfortunately doesn't work in an uncompressed 4:4:4 sample rate to retain the full data stream of RGB. It has to down scale color resolution into the component standard, and in doing so it doesn't do a perfect job. That creates some artifacts.
Before I go any further, I thought I'd get some advice from here.
I'm looking for the ideal setup for DOS gaming. My initial idea was to simply use DOSBox on a modern system, but I'm open to suggestions on the advantages of building a dedicated DOS machine. I'm also planning on buying a Roland MT-32, and looking for an ideal CRT monitor for this setup.
I live in the US (San Antonio), if by chance anyone knows local places to look (for the CRT specifically).
I'm looking for the ideal setup for DOS gaming. My initial idea was to simply use DOSBox on a modern system, but I'm open to suggestions on the advantages of building a dedicated DOS machine. I'm also planning on buying a Roland MT-32, and looking for an ideal CRT monitor for this setup.
I live in the US (San Antonio), if by chance anyone knows local places to look (for the CRT specifically).
geniusbits
Member
I can't get my mini to add scan lines to HDMI inputs whether direct is checked on or off. The scan lines button does nothing, I've tried it in natural and picture modes.
Mixed up quote names.
I finally got my HDMI N64 set up with the perfect converter on to my CRT at 480p. I'm not going to be tweaking much of anything except de-blur for the few games where it doesn't work.
Uncompressed originals:
http://i.imgur.com/bZWNvvG.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/mNOSLoD.jpg
Link? Extron adapters? Phoenix connectors are common, it's Extron's Phoenix to RCA adapters that are hard to come by.
Quick update on my 'vertical lines on some PSone games running on a PS2' issue.
I tested the very same games, plus some new one, with my second PS2 - I own a Japanese system, and a modded PAL console too - and I've got the exact same results: some PlayStation games - I'd say those that sport major dithering to begin with - just produce that vertical pattern on certain textures/colors. Japanese Tobal 2, SFEX/SFEX2, US Grandia, Bio Freaks and Rayman all look fine, for example, while Japanese Gran Turismo - exactly like GT2 - has those bars.
I can only assume it's either some artifact/glitch added by the PS2 itself (occurring under specific circumstances, since it's there only with some games), or maybe I just never noticed it before on the original PlayStation, due to my older and crappier CRT setup.
I tested the very same games, plus some new one, with my second PS2 - I own a Japanese system, and a modded PAL console too - and I've got the exact same results: some PlayStation games - I'd say those that sport major dithering to begin with - just produce that vertical pattern on certain textures/colors. Japanese Tobal 2, SFEX/SFEX2, US Grandia, Bio Freaks and Rayman all look fine, for example, while Japanese Gran Turismo - exactly like GT2 - has those bars.
I can only assume it's either some artifact/glitch added by the PS2 itself (occurring under specific circumstances, since it's there only with some games), or maybe I just never noticed it before on the original PlayStation, due to my older and crappier CRT setup.
Edit: I found it. http://tft-lcd.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/Qdeo/88DE2750_DS_V05_mrvl.pdf
Post edit: Holly...
Fudoh wrong? ... I'm pretty sure this is the right data sheet... Well shit. Hmm... Aren't there 2 processors in the FM? Maybe I should look that up too...
NormalFish
Banned
Worth mentioning that micomsoft has also been wrong before lol.
This has to be PS2 specific, I have noticed this previously when playing FF8 on the PS2, some floor textures that are dark shaded, indeed look bad and this isn't the case with the real PSX, i have one running now, so I'm positive on this.
Shadow Hog
Member
If you're serious about it, LGR did a video on the matter back in 2010 that's still pretty relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxMXJd4GDyc
Most of it depends on what timeframe you're trying to cover. Windows 98 is a bit of a donut hole in terms of compatibility; XP games generally work on Windows 7 and later, DOS games generally work on DOSBox, but games in-between are a tricky mistress.
That said, you might want to be sure you have a motherboard with an ISA slot if you lean more toward DOS than Windows, so you can get a proper high-end Sound Blaster later down the line (if it doesn't come with one). Mine only had PCI slots (other than an AGP slot for my GeForce MX440), so I had to make due with a clone - and while the ALS4000 is a pretty good clone, I can't help but wonder what a proper Sound Blaster could've been like.
As for CRT... well, almost anything made from the mid-90s onward would suffice, surely? I have a KDS that supports 1600x1200, although for Windows 98, 1024x768 is plenty.
Beer Monkey
Member
Yep. I've got a big problem with this. I know the "RGB is always superior to component" argument is very popular, but for game consoles and their already limited bandwidth and color resolution, it sure hasn't been proven. Calibrate, calibrate, calibrate.
Also, he can assert that >800 and >900 TVL makes 240p monitors look better, but when the actual horizontal resolution of 240p gaming is typically 256 to 320 vertical lines, you're going to have to PROVE it to me.
Phonedork likes to make statements of fact that are actually his subjective opinion. The info he conveys might be more accurate than some other sources, but that doesn't mean he's 100% right.
DarkConfidant
Member
So I'm just now trying to get back into playing old games.
Mostly I've been playing my NES and SNES on my old CRT.
I was thinking of buying an old PS3, and my question is strictly whether it is better to play PSone and PS2 games on a CRT, an HDTV via component, or whether it doesn't really matter with PS3's BC, and I should just use HDMI.
Is there any noticible advantage in using any of these methods over the others, involving a PS3 to play PSone and 2 games?
(For clarity: I'm choosing to get an old PS3 because my PS2 and PSone are no longer running, and I'd prefer to just have one system rather than 3. Excuse the possible inferiority of this setup please. I just want to know which connection with PS3 would be best, as I'm new to this subject.)
Mostly I've been playing my NES and SNES on my old CRT.
I was thinking of buying an old PS3, and my question is strictly whether it is better to play PSone and PS2 games on a CRT, an HDTV via component, or whether it doesn't really matter with PS3's BC, and I should just use HDMI.
Is there any noticible advantage in using any of these methods over the others, involving a PS3 to play PSone and 2 games?
(For clarity: I'm choosing to get an old PS3 because my PS2 and PSone are no longer running, and I'd prefer to just have one system rather than 3. Excuse the possible inferiority of this setup please. I just want to know which connection with PS3 would be best, as I'm new to this subject.)
The documentation is from Marvell themselves. The chip number matches the number I've seen in pictures of the exposed Frammeister circuit board. Marvell Qdeo Kyoto G2 88DE2750
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