I don't know about their internals, but in-line shadow mask was the default display for most TVs, aperture grille being patented by Sony. I do believe any consumer TV with the same technology will look the same, provided they are properly tuned. The difference being the size, and the shape of the tube (flat or round, slim or full) that can influence how a picture look.
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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
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I don't know about their internals, but in-line shadow mask was the default display for most TVs, aperture grille being patented by Sony. I do believe any consumer TV with the same technology will look the same, provided they are properly tuned. The difference being the size, and the shape of the tube (flat or round, slim or full) that can influence how a picture look.
the HDMI mod can let you have both outputs since the original analog output is untouched and you could add the RGB mod on the same machine.
right now i'd say it's a price vs convenience thing. hopefully the price will get down eventually when the demand is better met.
i tried changing settings before taking them but i don't have a reference since there's no 240p suite for N64 to calibrate properly.
should i try making the image look the same as the HDMI captures?
Can a dual modded N64 output to two separate displays (one RGB, other HDMI) at the same time?
There are some at this link:
http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showthread.php?248672-PVM-Service-Manuals-20M2MDU-and-others
There are some at this link:
http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showthread.php?248672-PVM-Service-Manuals-20M2MDU-and-others
Yes.
I don't think that would be accurate. I think the fact is that black information has been limited (what ought to be different shades of black are now the same level of black), and simply manipulating the image won't resolve all the detail. I'm pretty sure just changing the Mini to the correct RGB range will fix a lot of it.
Beer Monkey
Member
You're a bad influence. I just bought one for $78 shipped.
Thx sir!
I'd like hook my RPi 2 up to a CRT display but I'm not sure of what the discrepancy is between PAL and NTSC displays.
I'm in the UK but I'd like to get as much of the display visible, while achieving the most authentic look possible across multiple retro consoles - I don't want much, I get it!.
I think more recent CRTs sold in the UK probably support 60hz but I wasn't sure. Is there a good way of identifying this when shopping around in most likely, second-hand shops?
I also remembered that a lot of later CRT displays were flat instead of curved, I'd think this would be personal preference for a lot of people but is there a consensus on what looks better? I'm leaning towards a 4:3 curved display hopefully, 21 inches.
I'm in the UK but I'd like to get as much of the display visible, while achieving the most authentic look possible across multiple retro consoles - I don't want much, I get it!.
I think more recent CRTs sold in the UK probably support 60hz but I wasn't sure. Is there a good way of identifying this when shopping around in most likely, second-hand shops?
I also remembered that a lot of later CRT displays were flat instead of curved, I'd think this would be personal preference for a lot of people but is there a consensus on what looks better? I'm leaning towards a 4:3 curved display hopefully, 21 inches.
They all do. only the earliest models (think, 70s, maybe early 80s) sometimes don't. But any good looking second hand TV will display a 60Hz image.
What some don't, especially the cheap brands, is decode NTSC signal. So using an import console/game with Composite would only give you a black and white image without sound. But RGB is unaffected by it.
Even if the TV can use NTSC via Composite/S-video, it's very uncommon to do NTSC via RF. Only the newest, upper range TV can, sometimes. Using an old American or Japanese console from the 70s can be tricky in Europe.
In my experience flat tends to have better geometry and curved tends to have better contrast, although the geometry thing could just be that flat CRT weren't around long enough to go all crazy.
Beer Monkey
Member
My experience is the opposite. Flat CRTs typically have far worse geometry at the edges. Flat CRTs have unique engineering challenges that had to be worked around as best as possible by the designers.
Of course, rounded CRTs have a sort of distortion of their own because of the rounded shape and viewing angles.
entremet
Member
I can confirm. I have flat CRT and the geometry is a bit warped at the edges.
Beer Monkey
Member
CRTs were made curved for a couple of reasons.
1) They are more resistant to imploding (remember, they are vacuum tubes, literally) naturally. Flat tubes have to be made of thicker glass to resist implosion, making them heavier and larger.
2) Focal length from the gun(s) that spray the electron beam is closer to constant across the entire screen. With a flat screen the edges are much further from the gun than the center. Engineers compensate for this as much as is feasible with complicated circuitry, requiring a more complex design (and resulting in using more components that will drift over time).
Beer Monkey
Member
PSA: There's what I think to be an Olympus-rebranded PVM-20M2MDU on eBay for $203 shipped.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Olympus-OEV-203-Color-Video-Monitor-19-/401094582240
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Olympus-OEV-203-Color-Video-Monitor-19-/401094582240
That'll be a total of zero advantages for flat CRTs then.
I tended to stick with curved as the contrast was more important to me and only ever used other peoples flat CRTs.
Its certainly possible that my friends were simply better at calibrating geometry than me, even now I tend to just spend a minute messing with the H-Center, then call it good enough if most of the screen is visible.....
Is it the exact same model? There are several more advanced models that are TM14-xx. I picked mine knowing it was a nice mid-90s set with shadowmask and 500 or 600 lines of resolution (conflicting specs but it's one of these). It also has EBU phosphors but I'm not clear on the difference between than and SMPTE-C phosphors. I know Trinitrons have the latter and they're supposed to be less likely to color drift over their lifespan.
Beer Monkey
Member
Is is the exact same model? There are several more advanced models that are TM14-xx.
Same one. Same seller. Hey, new games are $60 plus tax. $78 isn't a bad gamble to me.
davidwhangchoi
Member
Is it the exact same model? There are several more advanced models that are TM14-xx. I picked mine knowing it was a nice mid-90s set with shadowmask and 500 or 600 lines of resolution (conflicting specs but it's one of these). It also has EBU phosphors but I'm not clear on the difference between than and SMPTE-C phosphors. I know Trinitrons have the latter and they're supposed to be less likely to color drift over their lifespan.
hey! what about me? is there another one =P
it can.
technically mine doesn't have RGB but dual output is possible and the RGB mod would be in the original output for CRT.
now that i remember, i set it to limited because my TV's whole setup is set to limited thanks to the Wii U not supporting it and me not wanting to toggle the setting all the time.
i'll test by changing it to full for these.
Beer Monkey
Member
Dude I watched it on eBay for days before making an offer which was just five bucks below asking.
I think the vendor gets a fair amount of this stuff. Watch for seller "tech-harvester".
davidwhangchoi
Member
thaanks!
Nice. Just as a cautionary comment: I'm pretty sure the FM's input and output settings are independently set. So be sure both input and output are set to the same range.
Shadow Hog
Member
As long as it's an NTSC console producing an NTSC signal, I believe you should be fine.
Beer Monkey
Member
How good is the Wii VC scaling of PC Engine games? I know that some are incorrectly coded for 480i, but I've heard even the 240p ones have to scale the 256 pixel horizontal resolution to 320 aka that the Wii doesn't have a timing to output 256x240. My Wii is in storage, as I foolishly thought I'd probably never need it again when the Wii U came out. Does anybody play games like Dracula X on the Wii with a P/BVM type monitor? Is the scaling an issue?
Yes, there's another from the same seller listed for $49.
Beer Monkey
Member
Folks, even the s-video on the JVC HD/SD broadcast monitors (also available rebranded as Panasonic) is crazy good.
When I get my Gameboy Player I'm going to give zero shits about finding a component cable.
Edit: The banding in that photo is not even slightly perceptible when I look at the screen; I just checked. I guess I can't see in 1/60sec.
When I get my Gameboy Player I'm going to give zero shits about finding a component cable.
Edit: The banding in that photo is not even slightly perceptible when I look at the screen; I just checked. I guess I can't see in 1/60sec.
Dracula X via Component (VC 240p mode afaik; makes the tone when doing the 240p switch)
I don't have any issues with it, but outside of one instance of playing DX natively on an actual PC engine at Retro World Expo, I don't have much to compare to. Granted that was using AV cables, but it was on a Trinitron, and PC Engine's Composite is actually pretty decent compared to most.....
I also have Lords of Thunder if you want pics of that one....
D.Lo
Member
The PCE hucard games are blurry 480i, but the PCE CD games are 240p.
They may have fixed the later hucard releases, but that was certainly the case to start with. I stopped buying them after aa year or two.
Regarding horizontal scaling, I've never seen any issues. DX looked perfect to me, and I know the game very very well.
Not sure if this is the appropriate place to talk about it, but Nintendo Store in NY has N3DS units at kiosks being output to fairly large LCDs.
It actually doesn't look as bad as you'd think. Certainly, it'd be better in native res on a CRT or something because this is definitely being upscaled to a higher resolution on the LCD.
I always find the displays used on Kiosks to be an interesting thing. They generally look pretty good. But this sort of looks like shit.
If they're going to rig kiosks, why not have some custom screens manufactured for 1:1 scaling? Or better yet, how about some large 240p screens for native resolution?
I'll post pictures when I get a chance.
It actually doesn't look as bad as you'd think. Certainly, it'd be better in native res on a CRT or something because this is definitely being upscaled to a higher resolution on the LCD.
I always find the displays used on Kiosks to be an interesting thing. They generally look pretty good. But this sort of looks like shit.
If they're going to rig kiosks, why not have some custom screens manufactured for 1:1 scaling? Or better yet, how about some large 240p screens for native resolution?
I'll post pictures when I get a chance.
i wonder how it compares with capture devices modded onto the 3DS.
Well, I can't comment on that. But it's definitely a lossless signal but with some slight input lag.
P.S. They also have a Wii U hooked up to a giant modern jumbotron style dot matrix display that takes up an entire wall. If that's not native 720p then it's perfectly scaling everything. Too bad not all of the pixels have the same color balance and brightness. You can see the image is composed of many smaller dot matrix panels that were cobbled together without frames.
It actually looks really REALLY good despite not being configured 100% properly.
I didn't know I wanted that. I do now.
The 3DS has a resolution 400x240, potentially 800x240 with 3D off. The engineer who designed that screen must have wanted to display it on a CRT, there is no other possibility.
sixteen-bit
Member
I've seen 3DS tv mods (shou's tumblr, various twitch streamers) but it seemed to output to a plasma or LCDs. I assume it's a HDMI connection?
Can't tell. It's proprietary.. and so, so sorry!... I thought I had better pictures >_<
I will grab some close ups next time I visit.
LOOK GUYS!!!11 IT'S THE NX!!1!
davidwhangchoi
Member
Can't tell. It's proprietary.. and so, so sorry!... I thought I had better pictures >_<
I will grab some close ups next time I visit.
is this somebody's window blinds? cool!
entremet
Member
Can't tell. It's proprietary.. and so, so sorry!... I thought I had better pictures >_<
I will grab some close ups next time I visit.
LOOK GUYS!!!11 IT'S THE NX!!1!
I saw those. I thought, man I'd love one. Although the 3DS resolution suits it best for smaller displays.
NormalFish
Banned
Honestly it bothers me immensely that Nintendo (and even Sony) didn't follow in the PSP's footsteps with video out. Seems like it should be pretty cheap to implement (with income from the cables as a bonus) and it's invaluable in the age of youtube, twitch, etc.
blast processed
Member
Yep! I love the output option for the PSP.
D.Lo
Member
You think Nintendo actually wants people making money from their intellectual property from their games being streamed?
If I'm Nintendo you just argued me into never including TV output ever lol.
Agreed, makes capturing screenshots and footage easier for me when doing youtube vids.
Same here.
Guys, DSi Shop is shutting down.
If you want DSi Ware with perfect screen quality and no borders, better act soon.
I started a thread about what games to download along with the official announcement:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=199938426&posted=1#post199938426
If you want DSi Ware with perfect screen quality and no borders, better act soon.
I started a thread about what games to download along with the official announcement:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=199938426&posted=1#post199938426
entremet
Member
I think Nintendo is wrong here personally. I see it as free marketing.
NormalFish
Banned
I think it's archaeic thinking like that which will push Nintendo further in to irrelevance. Especially given they're one of few massive devs still making gameplay focused titles, YouTube and twitch are the best advertising they could ask for.
Yeah but what you guys think is barely the point.
Should it? Sure. Will it? Lol no.
NormalFish
Banned
My point was never that Nintendo WILL do anything. Always that it's a mistake not to. What I think was literally the only point.
D.Lo
Member
Thanks for the heads up!
Lol at 'you guys know who you are'
They're pretty fine when unscaled on 3DS though, I had to get Risky's Revenge on 3DS because it was never released in Australia and you can't change shop regions on DSi (but can on 3DS). But I have most on DSi.
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