That's a really good deal for DS Lites. The universe is telling you, "Get GBA games. I don't know how obvious I can make this message to you."
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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
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That's a really good deal for DS Lites. The universe is telling you, "Get GBA games. I don't know how obvious I can make this message to you."
LucidMomentum
Member
I have two of the PVM14M2Us. I use Component on the Wii and it was worth it. $80 is pretty good for those too.
RadarScope1
Member
That's what I don't get! Let's celebrate what we all love instead of being bitches.
Edit:
Yes, those guys. A new videos of theirs went up recently and I was addressing the wrong person.
I don't think their content and video format is bad. Their stuff is very well made. I just find it hard to watch any YouTube person with an annoying voice, whether it's these guys being themselves or a put-on voice like Pewdiepie. Anyway I'm not gonna keep ragging on them... I'll eventually get around to watching the video.
Anyway I got an Ikegami TM14-17R, $74 shipped and got the seller to send it FedEx. It's a 13" monitor with a shadow mask and very soft scanlines (sometimes not visible). I wanted the equivalent TM20 but couldn't justify another huge set in my space... plus how was I gonna carry it up with no handles?!
The picture is brighter and more colorful than the JVC and BVM. It's crazy how thick scanlines darken and dampen the picture. It's definitely softer but has a nice glow and a more authentic old-school TV look. It takes RGB and Component and it looks great overall. I like direct comparisons so here's the Ikegami vs. the BVM. If you look closely you can see how different the two screens are.
Posting the rest in the scanlines thread.
Yes, those guys. A new videos of theirs went up recently and I was addressing the wrong person.
I don't think their content and video format is bad. Their stuff is very well made. I just find it hard to watch any YouTube person with an annoying voice, whether it's these guys being themselves or a put-on voice like Pewdiepie. Anyway I'm not gonna keep ragging on them... I'll eventually get around to watching the video.
Anyway I got an Ikegami TM14-17R, $74 shipped and got the seller to send it FedEx. It's a 13" monitor with a shadow mask and very soft scanlines (sometimes not visible). I wanted the equivalent TM20 but couldn't justify another huge set in my space... plus how was I gonna carry it up with no handles?!
The picture is brighter and more colorful than the JVC and BVM. It's crazy how thick scanlines darken and dampen the picture. It's definitely softer but has a nice glow and a more authentic old-school TV look. It takes RGB and Component and it looks great overall. I like direct comparisons so here's the Ikegami vs. the BVM. If you look closely you can see how different the two screens are.
Posting the rest in the scanlines thread.
sixteen-bit
Member
nice scanline pics
Note: my remarks before and below are in reference to MLiG. It's not shitposting to me. Two weeks ago I had to do a 20 minute presentation at work in a smallish conference room to 40 people in person and live conferencing. Not trying to brag but I nailed it after preparing a couple of weeks. Afterward people I ran into congratulated me on a really great job... and my main concern was asking for critiques. What did I do wrong? What could I improve on? This is important to me. Over enunciating, over rehearsed voices, awkward nervousness, insincereness or phoniness, other distracting elements, these things bug me. They're legitimate criticisms for me.
davidwhangchoi
Member
the screens on the right are so much better imo, at least for those 16 bit games posted.. maybe n64 and above would look better on the left screens.
yeah man! you're pretty strong to carry my BVM all the way down your stairs by yourself =)
RadarScope1
Member
Fair enough. Not trying to belabor this, but can you grant me at least this: what line of work are you in?
Branding, design and marketing in a corporate environment. I don't like getting into further specifics with online people, like I told missle in PM. I was pretty cautious and private about meeting David because I never meet up with online peeps! I don't present regularly, and I dread it up until the moment I'm doing it, but once I am it feels natural. I'm leaving for a work related conference in May and I'll have to report on that at some point this spring/summer. Blah!
I'm not fuming mad about any of this. Sorry if it came off that way.
Up was so much harder! I was burnt out that night from little sleep and bringing my big PVM down earlier that day for another buyer.
Btw, some 16-bit games do look better on the Ikegami. Mario RPG (prerendered graphics), Jurassic Park (fine character sprite), stuff with solid bright color like blue skies and clouds doesn't look as nice with thick dark lines running through it. I posted larger originals in the Scanlines thread so you can really see the detail that's not coming through in the pics here. Bonus pic:
Right one (JVC) could use a slight pincushion adjustment and very minor Vertical size reduction. Top one (Ikegami) is a rounded tube so that's actually fine. Left (BVM) is perfect as usual.
FiveMinuteHero
Member
Anyone tried the HP Pavilion 27xw with a Framemeister? I want to make sure it works without issues with the FM before buying this monitor. Thanks!
http://www.cnet.com/products/hp-pavilion-27xw-led-monitor-27/specs/
http://www.cnet.com/products/hp-pavilion-27xw-led-monitor-27/specs/
Pancakes R Us
Member
Wow, those scanline screens look fantastic. Does a Franemeister replicate this look or is it that PVMs always look better?
I've been looking for a good P/BVM in the UK for a while (at a decent price £2-300) in decent condition but haven't had any luck (ideally 20"). One eBay seller was a bit of a psycho, sent me way too many e-mails and another has raised their prices big time.
You got to play the long game, but something will pop up eventually. Took me about 3 months until I found my BVM.
theSlacker
Member
I got mine from googling really hard the model numbers of the sets I wanted. Normal manual was one thing but getting a maintenance manual was a whole other. More often then not I just found linup overviews that had the basic details of all the series of PVM/BVM and accessories for that year.
Edit: Wondered why I haven't seen you recently so checked your posts. Completely missed the one about you getting banned again at the beginning of this month. Sorry to hear that. :c
RadarScope1
Member
And that's my only point here. These guys are not professionals in the field of broadcasting, marketing, PR, fundraising, etc. They're just geeks. Same for most podcasts. It's just people chatting about shit they enjoy. It's not NPR or CBS.
And I know you're not fuming, dude! I'm the one who brought this up because it is an admittedly weird trigger for me. Dropping it now, though. Point is made...
I've picked up my first PMV, a PVM14M2U.
Just the right size for my desk. I just need cables now, going to hook up a SNES.
The guy had two more 14 inch models, but they didn't have the capability of this unit. He demoed it for me with a DVD player, it looked gorgeous.
This was the listing, for anyone in the NJ / Philly area:
http://southjersey.craigslist.org/vgm/5491331492.html
He also has this website where he sells old AV equipment:
http://bibbteck.com/
He's a great guy, said he sometimes gets 20 inch models in, and to check back frequently.
He did not stab me.
Edit: As a small bonus, this unit was modded to have a 3.5mm jack in the front. Strange, since going from RCA audio to 3.5mm isn't that hard, why do any serious modifications to do it this way?
Just the right size for my desk. I just need cables now, going to hook up a SNES.
The guy had two more 14 inch models, but they didn't have the capability of this unit. He demoed it for me with a DVD player, it looked gorgeous.
This was the listing, for anyone in the NJ / Philly area:
http://southjersey.craigslist.org/vgm/5491331492.html
He also has this website where he sells old AV equipment:
http://bibbteck.com/
He's a great guy, said he sometimes gets 20 inch models in, and to check back frequently.
He did not stab me.
Edit: As a small bonus, this unit was modded to have a 3.5mm jack in the front. Strange, since going from RCA audio to 3.5mm isn't that hard, why do any serious modifications to do it this way?
davidwhangchoi
Member
oh cool nice grab!!!
Beer Monkey
Member
That's why I'm going to defocus my JVC at some point. 240p (on left) just has too much black space between the scanlines (I refuse to call the black space scanlines, as it is not). I'd prefer something in between this and the 480p (on right).
No original gaming ever looked like this on any equipment back in the day. The distinctness of scanlines can be taken to such an extreme that it's a distortion of the original presentation.
I do want a shadow mask monitor at some point in addition to the aperture grille JVC.
theSlacker
Member
That can be a problem with all the professional monitors.
Beer Monkey
Member
Especially with the (rare) pro monitors that can scan high-def in addition to standard-def. The focus is razor sharp; 240p is so far below the resolution that most people would use these monitors for that there's literally twice as much black space at that resolution as there is actual glowing phosphor.
240p wasn't just about having distinct scan lines, it was about creating a really solid, non-flickering image. We can really over emphasize the scan line effect, even sort of fetishize it, really. IMO, of course.
i've got more videos and pictures to share:
first, videos:
F-Zero X King Cup
F-Zero X Joker Cup
F-Zero X DD-1 Cup
Mario Artist Polygon Studio
also, i got some more pictures from Direct Mode. i chose this first because it's the easiest to set up due to having few settings:
first, videos:
F-Zero X King Cup
F-Zero X Joker Cup
F-Zero X DD-1 Cup
Mario Artist Polygon Studio
also, i got some more pictures from Direct Mode. i chose this first because it's the easiest to set up due to having few settings:
Super Mario 64
Super Smash Bros.
note: in the last image, the game switched to 480i mode. that's why you can see some interlacing artifacts in the names.
Nice pics, I wonder how this compare to RGB(which I have for my N64).
i also have an RGB unit. the only thing is that i can't do direct capture because i have no way to connect it directly to my capture card. it'd have to go through the FM.
i could do upscaled modes of the HDMI N64 to compare more directly against the FM.
Wow, really? I do direct capture of my N64 RGB using the Sync Strike to the capture card. I can do those if you want me to.
Yeah you can do that.
with the footage and pics i've posted, i think a comparison can be made. the only thing that may vary is capture card settings.
Firing up Super Mario Bros. with the Ikegami for the first time was a little surprising. It's a lot more like what I remember CRTs being back in the early-mid 90s (an ideal version anyway since it's RGB and still relatively sharp). I still very much like my BVM, but this monitor is a nice difference. Cross-posting from the scanlines thread + some close-up crops of earlier photos:
Left to right: BVM, HD JVC, Ikegami
Ikegami, BVM:
i made a RGB N64 vs HDMI N64 comparison.
settings for these were 1080p output for HDMI N64 with De-Blur active and the RGB N64 was captured through the XRGB Mini and scaled with HScaler 5 and VScaler 7.
first, i compare them with standard display modes (in other words, no 1:1 modes. just the standard 4:3 picture inside a 1080p frame)
in all, they look quite comparable with these settings.
i also did comparisons using both setups' 1:1 modes. for HDMI N64 that'd be Sharp Pixels while for the RGB one it's the Smart x2 image mode from the Mini.
things are more interesting here. HDMI N64 looks noticeably different.
i took very similar pictures because i wanted to make a gif with each set but i dunno how to make good quality gifs. if someone could make a few it'd be greatly appreciated.
settings for these were 1080p output for HDMI N64 with De-Blur active and the RGB N64 was captured through the XRGB Mini and scaled with HScaler 5 and VScaler 7.
first, i compare them with standard display modes (in other words, no 1:1 modes. just the standard 4:3 picture inside a 1080p frame)
RGB N64
HDMI N64 (De-Blur on)
HDMI N64 (De-Blur off)
in all, they look quite comparable with these settings.
i also did comparisons using both setups' 1:1 modes. for HDMI N64 that'd be Sharp Pixels while for the RGB one it's the Smart x2 image mode from the Mini.
RGB N64
HDMI N64 (De-Blur on)
HDMI N64 (De-Blur off)
things are more interesting here. HDMI N64 looks noticeably different.
i took very similar pictures because i wanted to make a gif with each set but i dunno how to make good quality gifs. if someone could make a few it'd be greatly appreciated.
BlazeHedgehog
Member
Maybe this would be a good thread to ask:
I recently bought a very nice Elgato capture device, but I found out recently that it only takes HDMI input.
I have an older capture device that works just fine with S-Video, but there are still some consoles (like the PS2) that I do have component cables for, and would like to use them with the Elgato.
Is there a good component-to-HDMI converter? I've heard latency on those kinds of converters can be a real problem for videogames. Should I just suck it up with a cheap converter and get a splitter? I would rather not hemorrhage money on this, I'm tired of spending $200+ on video stuff.
I recently bought a very nice Elgato capture device, but I found out recently that it only takes HDMI input.
I have an older capture device that works just fine with S-Video, but there are still some consoles (like the PS2) that I do have component cables for, and would like to use them with the Elgato.
Is there a good component-to-HDMI converter? I've heard latency on those kinds of converters can be a real problem for videogames. Should I just suck it up with a cheap converter and get a splitter? I would rather not hemorrhage money on this, I'm tired of spending $200+ on video stuff.
splitter + a cheap converter sounds good. you'll only have to worry about lag on the splitter and they usually don't have any even if they're rather cheap (just don't go too cheap to avoid bad quality). you'll be fine with a converter that just changes component to HDMI since any other processing can be done post capture and these cards trend to take most 480 resolutions.
Edit: that could be a consequence of the de-blur process on the HDMI mod. TBH, I think this comparison is botched in that sense since we can't compare like for like. I would prefer blurr on/off on both sides to compare.
Your ikegami basically looks like a basic,run-off-the-mill European consumer CRT with Scart. For thinner, more distinct scan lines, one would usually get a Sony Trinitron. I like the softer picture, I feel the picture is more "whole", as in it's more like a full painting, not 240 unwoven threads. Though a Trinitron is really sharp and just as pleasing, but for different reasons. Damn I just can't make up my mind. Both are great!
davidwhangchoi
Member
I'm officially part of the problem, sorry for the shitty pic, I assure you it looks stellar in person
only S-vid for now, but I guess I'll be diving into RGB land...
nice Dicer!!!
i guess i'll have to take additional shots without de-blur and append them to complete the comparison. fortunately it's easy to set up.
Hope I don't come off as a falsely entitled whiner. It's just the fact of the matter in regards to color comparisons between images. A blur filter is a filter like any other and can skew the results. Thanks for all the work.
it's pretty close. it depends on where you prefer to play and how you like the sharp pixels.
i'd say HDMI is preferred if you want to concentrate all your consoles on an HDTV and RGB is preferred if you'd rather stay with CRTs and similar equipment.
the investment for RGB is noticeably lower if you're using a CRT since you don't need the FM to use it effectively. on an HDTV you'll end up investing in something expensive to have the N64 be playable either way.
it's quite cheaper to get the HDMI mod vs buying a FM solely for the N64 if you go HDTV but the FM has the added benefit of working on many other retro machines.
when it comes to input lag, HDMI makes it possible to use the N64 on modern displays with very low lag of 1 frame in processed modes (720p/1080p and all the other effects). direct mode is pretty much instant and the only lag you'll be having is from the TV/Monitor. it will work as long as it supports 480p.
on a CRT you'd simply use RGB.
so, to summarize:
the HDMI mod is overall better quality than RGB but the difference is not that massive.
HDMI is preferred if you do gaming mainly in HDTVs and want your N64 to join the party without any extra equipment. RGB is preferred if you do most of your gaming in CRTs since the RGB mod is cheap.
in my case, i prefer the HDMI mod since it fits my needs a lot more than RGB.
I only do all my gaming through my capture cards(I gave up TV years ago) so I'll stick with my RGB modded N64 for the time being(though HDMI N64 could be possible when they're cheaper/more accessible).
Beer Monkey
Member
Near Dayton Ohio? PVM left out by a dumpster today.
https://dayton.craigslist.org/ele/5510708787.html
It's been raining, FYI.
https://dayton.craigslist.org/ele/5510708787.html
It's been raining, FYI.
davidwhangchoi
Member
hahaha i like how the ad states: free to pick up... =)
Gamma is wayyyy off in the analog captures. It looks crushed in the car stats screen. Is there any way you can calibrate that on the capture device?
Edit: It's also likely that your Framemeister settings are wrong. Toggle the the limited/full input settings on the Framemeister.
Ah ok. I thought someone had already collected the maintenance manuals.
I'm too old-school for GAF now. Fine. More time to work on my retro stuff.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I'd probably be a mostly-Framemeister gamer, but I'd still prefer to eventually get my N64 RGB modded so I can connect it to a CRT when I like. I hope this isn't foolish choosing that over HDMI mod....? Still a reasonable option?
entremet
Member
I'm officially part of the problem, sorry for the shitty pic, I assure you it looks stellar in person
only S-vid for now, but I guess I'll be diving into RGB land...
Is the PVM new or the Duo-R?
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