Yes on the stripper. Maybe on the coax... I think you were the one going all coax in earlier posts. If you were, then yeah, you might as well get this coax too. If not, then don't bother with just this one cable being coax.
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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
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Yes on the stripper. Maybe on the coax... I think you were the one going all coax in earlier posts. If you were, then yeah, you might as well get this coax too. If not, then don't bother with just this one cable being coax.
Yeah, I have gone all coax on the other cables, so guess it makes sense. Thanks for the advice! Btw, what is the point of the sync stripper? From what I read, this was useful with older firmware, but not really important anymore?
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
According to Marqs on shmup forum, the first batch (which I think was like 50 or so) of OSSCs are going to ship early next week. That's cool. I'm really, really hoping that I'm not too far down on the list, because with my XRGB-3 broken, I can't play any old-school stuff right now.
Shin Johnpv
Member
I was rolling my eyes at his attitude toward non-crts, and people using upscalers.
Roll harder then, because I stand by it. There is no reason to choose an upscaler over a CRT when you have the possibility to use either. There are legitimate reasons to own and use an upscaler, but saying they are superior or even on par for retrogaming is laughable.
Shin Johnpv
Member
Your opinion is not fact. What one person prefers is not the end all be all of the universe. People can chose whatever the fuck they want for whatever reason they want.
This shitty elitist attitude is why the upscaler and CRT threads should be separate.
Be considerate of the fact that no one really wants that right now. There is not enough active discussion to splinter off into even more niche retro threads.
Come on. Upscalers don't have the edge in PQ and responsiveness but they have their clear advantages. The two bolded sentences contradict each other. You know most people don't see CRTs as an option for well known reasons in which case an upscalers is the hands-down winner. This coming from someone with six pro CRTs in his home.
Blah, chill out guys.
I never said otherwise. People can choose whatever they want, but they deserve to be educated about what they are choosing. Separate threads would prevent that. Once they do know about the strengths and weaknesses of the different setups, in relation to their personal situation, they can make their own decision and I will never criticise them for it.
As for my opinions aren't facts, are you saying that input lag, square pixels, uneven line upscaling, downtime upon resolution change, hiccup scrolling with certain consoles, are just opinions?
[edit] Mega, there are perfectly legitimate reasons to prefer an upscaler. I could think of space, not wanting a separate display, wanting to play on the main giant display of the living room, etc. I don't diss on upscaler users, but the discussion we're having is needed so that people know about their options. In separate threads, people talking about upscalers wouldn't even start to consider using a CRT, even though they could go for this solution if they knew about it.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I have an upscaler and a PVM and I still opt for my upscaler much of the time. That screen size and perfect geometry is superior to any CRT.
NOLA_Gaffer
Banned
So is there a lower-cost option to the Framemeister that basically makes console games look non-shit on flat panel displays but doesn't have all the bells and whistles?
Not really. The OSSC will be barely cheaper (it was announced between 200-300$ iirc), but other than that, the cheap $50 on Amazon solutions are objectively terrible.
Khaz, you're really lowering my valuation of your opinions with respect to our shared topics in this thread. You say there's no reason, and in the next sentence say there's legit reason. And laughable? To you, maybe, but you can get bent with that comment. I'll enjoy gaming in my 50 inch plasma with no geometry quirks and direct digital interface. Not saying my preference is "superior" but nothing laughable.
blast processed
Member
I'll just drop in and say that I love my CRT. Without it I couldn't play any light gun games and thats a sacrifice that I 'm not willing to make when going with a FM. I'm also fortunate to have the space, for now.
geniusbits
Member
Res-switching evil?
cyborgnumberblue
Member
Not to fuel the fire, but I believe that given Khaz's scenario of the possibility of either an upscaler OR a pro/consumer RGB CRT, that the CRT would be the better offering, since it was the sole option available during these retro console's original lifetimes.
Truer to the spirit of "retro", maybe? At least. I think that's true.
I have my Dreamcast hooked up to my TV via VGA upscaler/HDMI converter to 1080p and while it looks great, I feel that playing on my 19" PVM is a more enjoyable experience.
Everybody to their own, though.
Truer to the spirit of "retro", maybe? At least. I think that's true.
I have my Dreamcast hooked up to my TV via VGA upscaler/HDMI converter to 1080p and while it looks great, I feel that playing on my 19" PVM is a more enjoyable experience.
Everybody to their own, though.
NOLA_Gaffer
Banned
Bummer. Well, next question: I assume stuff like the Framemeister is practically useless unless I'm feeding a RGB signal into it?
Don't mind Khaz. He's 2 l33t 4 U. Out of the non expensive options, the scart to component box is the best option if you're sure your hdtv accepts 240p via component.
As for the framemeister: if you've spent the cash on it, 20 dollar scart cables shouldn't phaze you.
NOLA_Gaffer
Banned
It's more about the hardware I own not supporting RGB natively (Famicom notably) than it is buying a cable.
I love CRTs, but they truly are labour of love. Their weight/footprint/power-consumption/aesthetics (industrial design-wise) make them a very difficult cost/benefit-proposition.
It's just not realistic to compare CRTs versus scalers in an 'all factors considered except X.' In a forum that deals heavily with the technical and tangible, it's not fair to compare things in the hypothetical.
I don't post much in this thread, but I certainly love following along with the discussion as an observer, and I have no problem with both conversations taking place in here, for what it's worth.
It's just not realistic to compare CRTs versus scalers in an 'all factors considered except X.' In a forum that deals heavily with the technical and tangible, it's not fair to compare things in the hypothetical.
I don't post much in this thread, but I certainly love following along with the discussion as an observer, and I have no problem with both conversations taking place in here, for what it's worth.
I see. Well in the case of the famicom, it's good have it modded regardless of application, cus its composite is sinful. lol
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
I'd be open to getting a CRT, but I don't want to buy a used TV. It's... pretty simple.
Seriously? That's what you got from my last few posts?
The Scart to Component can be very hit or miss with its need for a display that accepts 240p. It seems that many, if not most, HD displays have trouble with 240p through Component. But you're right, this is an option to consider, that I forgot existed.
The $50 box I was referring to was the terrible Scart-to-HDMI box that features prominently on some youtube channels.
Composite, as awful as it is, is sometimes the only option for some consoles. I suppose having it through the Framemeister would still give a better output than directly fed to the TV?
Yes, you shouldn't be surprised. A snobby attitude toward a setup that some people prefer comes off as just that.
NormalFish
Banned
Khaz has and, I assume, will continue to have, a strong penchant for saying things incredibly dogmatically. I wouldn't take him too seriously.
protomouse
Member
Awaiting my XRGB mini in the mail tomorrow. Fun times ahead!
Beer Monkey
Member
Life is good, I got the JVC SD/HD broadcast monitor back from the shop and it works great! The picture is a little softer than on the other (identical) monitor that I have, which is actually fine by me, the image feels more authentic though scanlines are still very obvious. Now that it works I was able to check the service menu: only 15,100 hours on the unit. Now if I can just find more input cards so I can use both monitors.
Beer Monkey
Member
The "second JVC" I'm always talking about, the zero hour one I got as a free replacement? It's the Panasonic rebranded one. I never say that because it's less confusing that way.
EDIT: Oh, and there's the embarrassing fact that it took me weeks to NOTICE that it was a Panasonic. I'm not even kidding.
EDIT: Oh, and there's the embarrassing fact that it took me weeks to NOTICE that it was a Panasonic. I'm not even kidding.
Ha! Knew I wasn't going nuts. When I asked about your setup you mentioned two DT-V1710CGs!
So the Ikegamis are Panasonic tubes from when you cracked it open (and from what I read elsewhere). Are the JVCs as well? It seems a little odd that there were hardly any medium-to-large Panasonic pro CRTs going into the 90s and 2000s, at least from what I can tell. So they made 15, 17 and 20 inch tubes for competitors instead?
So the Ikegamis are Panasonic tubes from when you cracked it open (and from what I read elsewhere). Are the JVCs as well? It seems a little odd that there were hardly any medium-to-large Panasonic pro CRTs going into the 90s and 2000s, at least from what I can tell. So they made 15, 17 and 20 inch tubes for competitors instead?
PumpkinSpice
Banned
Come on everyone, no fighting.
BTW I really should work out a way make a circuit to do RGB to 240p HDMI direct at some point. My old component box doing that is a pretty neat trick and it's 0 frames lag. I don't think I would swap out my FM for it but it would be nice to at least document it and it would make a neat project.
Edit: Actually I wonder if there are any VGA to HDMI boxes that would handle 240p sanely. Most of the circuit is just doing analog to digital, feeding that into something that formats for HDMI and spit it out, no lag. If that thing were to handle the sync sanely, if I could split the csync out into h/v sync and adapt a SCART cable to VGA, that might actually work...
BTW I really should work out a way make a circuit to do RGB to 240p HDMI direct at some point. My old component box doing that is a pretty neat trick and it's 0 frames lag. I don't think I would swap out my FM for it but it would be nice to at least document it and it would make a neat project.
Edit: Actually I wonder if there are any VGA to HDMI boxes that would handle 240p sanely. Most of the circuit is just doing analog to digital, feeding that into something that formats for HDMI and spit it out, no lag. If that thing were to handle the sync sanely, if I could split the csync out into h/v sync and adapt a SCART cable to VGA, that might actually work...
Beer Monkey
Member
I think JVC had better aperture grille type tech so I assumed they manufactured it.
Back to our regularly scheduled programming...
That may be, but as the MLiG guys showed, Csync still has better PQ. Other types of sync exhibit a checker board pattern on the FM.
*High five!* Welcome to the club.
That may be, but as the MLiG guys showed, Csync still has better PQ. Other types of sync exhibit a checker board pattern on the FM.
*High five!* Welcome to the club.
nogoodnamesleft
Banned
the wait for my xrgb mini is killing me :|
IrishNinja
Member
i really haven't heard/read anything about this one, post some known details!
as a big XRGB-advocate: i miss lightgun games sometimes, and while most games i play thankfully don't change res on the fly very often, i have to admit that some stuff - particularly rhythm games - are not entirely playable. we're using my roommate's panny plasma (which offers significantly less input lag), but my barometer is often Um Jammer Lammy, because a) that game can get picky real quick, and b) i adore it so. i struggle to get through even the early levels, but if i toss it over to my PVM, i'm pretty sure i'll not have such issues.
this is an odd stance - where you gonna find a new CRT, bruh
me, i'm looking forward to having a house one day with enough room to setup this nice trinotron a friend donated a while back, it's in great shape & the price was right!
Beer Monkey
Member
Devices that analog sync directly(OK, PVMs and the like) may have different results. When I got my monitors I assumed that internal sync component would be a shit show, but I've never seen a checkerboard or jailbar using it from the OG Wii or PSP Go. It may be that the FM is more sensitive.
I freely admit I am speculating here.
Punch-Out!! (NES/Famicom) is kind of my acid test for latency right now, but I'm old and slow. And there are definitely cues and patterns in that game that can help people adapt under higher lag, at least to a certain point.
Likewise for Megaman games. They might throw people off with higher latency, but it's not necessarily something you can't predict. Hypothesizing...
all the latest CRT discussion has made me realize i don't really use mine outside doing those comparison videos i've made.
i've put so much effort into making the consoles i still use have low lag on my current setup that the CRT is becoming less and less important to have
i've put so much effort into making the consoles i still use have low lag on my current setup that the CRT is becoming less and less important to have
it also sucks that i paid $75 for this thing when most people seem to have paid under $30 for their used CRTs. i guess that's the price of living in a country with almost no options.
Beer Monkey
Member
nogoodnamesleft
Banned
does anyone here use a csy-2100 or one of its clones? Would love impressions when converting scart to component.
It does a fine job for what it does...I know as I own one.
It works. It looks great if the colors are balanced. You can use it on a CRT obviously, but for an HDTV you have to be sure it accepts 240p via component. However scaling quality will differ from one TV model to anther.
nogoodnamesleft
Banned
Thanks guys. I will be using on a flatscreen trinitron with component. So no known issues yeah? And its comparable to SCART image quality?
The colors can fall out of wack, but if you open the unit, it's easy enough to tweak the pots for proper picture. Personally, I haven't had this problem, but other people have reported it.
It's comparable to RGB Scart, yeah. The color space is compressed in the process, but it'll be hard for you to tell the difference in the middle of a game.
You can get new CRTs on Ebay. These are mostly computer monitors but they're pretty cheap and count for something. There are occasionally new production monitors. 13" JVCs and such. I recall seeing a brand new in box PVM once. On another forum a guy posted about his NIB Olympus OEV. And if you know a TV repair guy there are new replacement tubes for monitors. Trinitron tubes pop up.
If you have cash to spare, you can get a new JVC SD/HD CRT for $1K (but useless without the input cards). Or if you're really crazy you can drop $8500 to $12,000 on one of the new Ikegamis still being sold in the States.
If you want practically/like new, get a late 00s CRT. It's almost guaranteed to have very low hours as their usage was brief. Everyone was switching over to HD production monitors and not putting much time and wear into these late CRTs. So yeah, good as new. One model in mind is the 15" JVC TM-H150CG. They're cheap, look pristine being only as far back as 2006-2008 and they have Composite/S-Video with a slot for an RGB/Component input card.
Oh and if you can somehow import, there are new Phillips CRT TVs in India.
If you have cash to spare, you can get a new JVC SD/HD CRT for $1K (but useless without the input cards). Or if you're really crazy you can drop $8500 to $12,000 on one of the new Ikegamis still being sold in the States.
If you want practically/like new, get a late 00s CRT. It's almost guaranteed to have very low hours as their usage was brief. Everyone was switching over to HD production monitors and not putting much time and wear into these late CRTs. So yeah, good as new. One model in mind is the 15" JVC TM-H150CG. They're cheap, look pristine being only as far back as 2006-2008 and they have Composite/S-Video with a slot for an RGB/Component input card.
Oh and if you can somehow import, there are new Phillips CRT TVs in India.
Can confirm. It does look nice. I posted an old photo a couple pages back of my old consumer CRT, it had component so that shot is taken using the CSY-2100. I haven't had the colour problems but then again I haven't used mine very much.
Ok thanks alot, going with the stripper then
Really looking forward to get this setup up and running!Btw, as I am new to the Framemeiser, I dont really know that much about sync and stuff yet. But could the sync stripper have been called a sync standardizer or something like that instead? Since it seems to standardize the various sync options before running into the Framemeister. Or does ths question just prove that I have no clue lol. Anyways, I did order the stripper now, but just want to understand more about what I am actually ordering
Sync stripper/cleaner is an accurate description of what the circuit does.
https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/composite-video-vs-composite-sync
As an aside, luma sync and composite video sync generally have no noticeable impact on the picture quality of most CRTs. Sync stripping in this case is about the monitor being altogether not accepting most sync types and only displaying a steady picture with Csync.
https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/composite-video-vs-composite-sync
As an aside, luma sync and composite video sync generally have no noticeable impact on the picture quality of most CRTs. Sync stripping in this case is about the monitor being altogether not accepting most sync types and only displaying a steady picture with Csync.
holygeesus
Banned
This isn't entirely a gaming related question, but you guys clearly know your stuff, so I thought I'd ask - is there any way to force a Sky HD box to output RGB 0-255 from HDMI instead of YCbCr? If not what sort of conversion device could I get?
What exactly are you trying to connect to? A Sky HD box is primarily a TV broadcast device, and broadcast TV is almost always, if not always in YUV format because of bandwidth constraints. Therefore, a broadcast TV box is purpose built to handle YUV format material, and I'd recon most of them don't bother with RGB support. If you're looking to convert YUV to RGB, your TV already does that internally... But again, I don't really know what your plans are...
Also the typical standard for white to black scale in TV material comes from 16-235 scale.
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