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[Mega]

You can get new CRTs on Ebay. These are mostly computer monitors but they're pretty cheap and count for something. There are occasionally new production monitors. 13" JVCs and such. I recall seeing a brand new in box PVM once. On another forum a guy posted about his NIB Olympus OEV. And if you know a TV repair guy there are new replacement tubes for monitors. Trinitron tubes pop up.

On this topic, this morning I snagged a new-in-box JVC TM-A13SU production monitor for $35 on ebay. Its best connection type is S-Video which is fine by me... I'm covered by my other monitors when it comes to RGB. I'm more interested in its diminutive size and weight, how the P22 phosphors differ from the higher grade SMPTE-C, what games look like on its modest 325 TVL... and of course the fact that it's brand spanking new, zero hours on the tube.

On Atari Age it's mentioned that this is the successor to the TM-13U which itself is the inspiration for the Commodore 64's 1702 CRT monitor (also made by JVC). http://atariage.com/forums/topic/247508-modding-the-jvc-tm-a13su-monitor/

 

[televator]

Devices that analog sync directly(OK, PVMs and the like) may have different results. When I got my monitors I assumed that internal sync component would be a shit show, but I've never seen a checkerboard or jailbar using it from the OG Wii or PSP Go. It may be that the FM is more sensitive.

I freely admit I am speculating here.



Punch-Out!! (NES/Famicom) is kind of my acid test for latency right now, but I'm old and slow. And there are definitely cues and patterns in that game that can help people adapt under higher lag, at least to a certain point.

Likewise for Megaman games. They might throw people off with higher latency, but it's not necessarily something you can't predict. Hypothesizing...

Yeah seeing as the conversation was specific to the FM, I didn't feel the need to clarify that the result should vary with CRT tech.

Haha! Coincidentally, Punchout games (NES, SNES, Wii) are the main reason I still hold onto my CRT.

 

[Morfeo]

Sync stripper/cleaner is an accurate description of what the circuit does.



https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/composite-video-vs-composite-sync

As an aside, luma sync and composite video sync generally have no noticeable impact on the picture quality of most CRTs. Sync stripping in this case is about the monitor being altogether not accepting most sync types and only displaying a steady picture with Csync.

Ok, thanks alot!

 

[Beer Monkey]

Haha! Coincidentally, Punchout games (NES, SNES, Wii) are the main reason I still hold onto my CRT.

That game is trash with the typical laggy flat panel. And yeah, nobody needs Punch-Out arcade.

 

[NormalFish]

Ok, thanks alot!

You're getting the cables for a framemeister, right? If you go scart on ps2 (and maybe ps1) you want to avoid composite video for sync. you'll get a checkerboard every time. Luma for sync is the way.

 

[nogoodnamesleft]

You're getting the cables for a framemeister, right? If you go scart on ps2 (and maybe ps1) you want to avoid composite video for sync. you'll get a checkerboard every time. Luma for sync is the way.

whats the "standard" most common sync type? i have ps2 scart cables that i used to use on my scart enabled tv but i have a framemeister on the way.

 

[missile]

On this topic, this morning I snagged a new-in-box JVC TM-A13SU production monitor for $35 on ebay. Its best connection type is S-Video which is fine by me... I'm covered by my other monitors when it comes to RGB. I'm more interested in its diminutive size and weight, how the P22 phosphors differ from the higher grade SMPTE-C, what games look like on its modest 325 TVL... and of course the fact that it's brand spanking new, zero hours on the tube.

On Atari Age it's that this is the successor to the TM-13U which itself is the inspiration for the Commodore 64's 1702 CRT monitor (also made by JVC). http://atariage.com/forums/topic/247508-modding-the-jvc-tm-a13su-monitor/

Speaking about phosphors;
Are the ones of the PVM/BVM known?
Are the spectral efficiency curves of the PVM/BVM phosphors known?
(perhaps someone has measured them already)

 

[Mega]

SMPTE-C phosphors for PVMs, BVMs and most high end pro CRTs from the 90s onward. No idea on that second question. My '96 Ikegami has EBU phosphors.

This big post gives a nice rundown on the three types and their differences:

https://forums.creativecow.net/archivepost/65/200642

 

[missile]

^ Thx man, but I want to know the materials used for red, green, and blue.

Someone needs to record the SPD curves of old monitors and TVs. Hurry!

 

[holygeesus]

What exactly are you trying to connect to? A Sky HD box is primarily a TV broadcast device, and broadcast TV is almost always, if not always in YUV format because of bandwidth constraints. Therefore, a broadcast TV box is purpose built to handle YUV format material, and I'd recon most of them don't bother with RGB support. If you're looking to convert YUV to RGB, your TV already does that internally... But again, I don't really know what your plans are...

Also the typical standard for white to black scale in TV material comes from 16-235 scale.

I have my PC and other media devices, all hooked up to my Pio Kuro which supports RGB High and I find that PC material in particular looks far better when I brute force my TV to run in this mode. All the other devices support RGB output barring the Sky box and having to delve into the TV menus to change my colorspace every time, is a bit of a pain.

 

[televator]

I have my PC and other media devices, all hooked up to my Pio Kuro which supports RGB High and I find that PC material in particular looks far better when I brute force my TV to run in this mode. All the other devices support RGB output barring the Sky box and having to delve into the TV menus to change my colorspace every time, is a bit of a pain.

I see. Well, like I said, TV broadcast is already sub sampled and luma obtained from 16-235. Computer sources have full color RGB info. You won't get the same result from the Sky box. Monitors and TVs are natively RGB and they already convert YUV formats to RGB as a necessity. I would trust that a Kuro does a good job of it as is, and chances are you won't get better color reproduction from an external converter.

Also afaik there's no difference between 16-235 and 0-255. Edit: unless user error puts the settings wrong and you get either grey or crushed blacks.

I actually do something similar with my Panny. It has a 4:4:4 mode with 1080p material. I can can feed it RGB material but getting it to be either native or well up scaled 1080p before the picture reaches the TV is the challenge. BD and DVD movies on the other hand, are encoded in 4:2:0 and I just let the TV do its own thing. You can't just make up shades of color that aren't there, so there's no point in fussing about it.

Post edit: you know what's become interesting to me lately? Getting back to games here... So I'm doing my random surfing on google and I'm reading that there's no set standards for full or limited RGB programming for games. Makes me wonder what individual games' black to white scale truly is...

 

[holygeesus]

I see. Well, like I said, TV broadcast is already sub sampled and luma obtained from 16-235. Computer sources have full color RGB info. You won't get the same result from the Sky box. Monitors and TVs are natively RGB and they already convert YUV formats to RGB as a necessity. I would trust that a Kuro does a good job of it as is, and chances are you won't get better color reproduction from an external converter.

Also afaik there's no difference between 16-235 and 0-255. Edit: unless user error puts the settings wrong and you get either grey or crushed blacks.

I actually do something similar with my Panny. It has a 4:4:4 mode with 1080p material. I can can feed it RGB material but getting it to be either native or well up scaled 1080p before the picture reaches the TV is the challenge. BD and DVD movies on the other hand, are encoded in 4:2:0 and I just let the TV do its own thing. You can't just make up shades of color that aren't there, so there's no point in fussing about it.

Thanks for your help.

I always thought that RGB high was the way to go when connecting PCs? It's what I primarily use this display for (it's in my man-cave) so I would prefer to calibrate it to the full range if possible. I understand that films/TV are encoded in YUV but aren't games designed for RGB? Maybe that is different now too, what with consoles being designed to be connected to TVs rather than PCs, which were originally aligned with monitors?

 

[televator]

Thanks for your help.

I always thought that RGB high was the way to go when connecting PCs? It's what I primarily use this display for (it's in my man-cave) so I would prefer to calibrate it to the full range if possible. I understand that films/TV are encoded in YUV but aren't games designed for RGB? Maybe that is different now too, what with consoles being designed to be connected to TVs rather than PCs, which were originally aligned with monitors?

RGB full for a PC should be good as long as your TV has the option to accept it. I got the impression that your Kuro does indeed do that? Otherwise your gamma will be way off. I have mine set to limited as I can't be arsed to keep switching the option on my Panny between full and limited sources. It's just easier to set full capable sources to limited so that they're on the same level with other gadgets that are stuck on limited and just leave the setting on my TV as limited.

Lately though I'm beginning to wonder if limited does not exacerbate banding in 24 bit color... Anyway, that's speculative on my part. Maybe missle or Sheepy can comment.

Games are... Variable. As I noted in my second edit, there's no industry standard unfortunately. Apparently some games on the same system could theoretically vary between full or limited. Nintendo went 2 generations with console games hard coded for YUV. I think most older consoles had to be RGB limited though since they were working within the confines of NTSC/PAL standards. So generally speaking games are RGB. Nintendo having the 2 exceptions, and games on all other modern consoles kinda playing fast and loose with with limited and full range standards or lack there of.

 

[Morfeo]

You're getting the cables for a framemeister, right? If you go scart on ps2 (and maybe ps1) you want to avoid composite video for sync. you'll get a checkerboard every time. Luma for sync is the way.

Correct. I have component cables for the PS2, but ordered the PS1-cable from retro_game_accessories, and she only makes them luma for sync i think, so hopefully that works out!

 

[holygeesus]

RGB full for a PC should be good as long as your TV has the option to accept it. I got the impression that your Kuro does indeed do that?

Yeah it's a major plus of the set, but the setting seems 'buggy' when left at Auto which is why I'm having to manually select it (or brute force it)

I have to select 'Colour 4' from the list, as Auto just doesn't do what it should - with it set to Auto I get either crushed-blacks or a completely washed out image - unfortunately because my Sky Box is outputting 4:4:4 this results in a green tinted image.

 

[NormalFish]

Correct. I have component cables for the PS2, but ordered the PS1-cable from retro_game_accessories, and she only makes them luma for sync i think, so hopefully that works out!

Yeah, she should be good about getting you the correct sync for the few problematic consoles. I just feel the need to mention it since, while sync types are all equal in many situations, there are some instances where one is clearly superior.

 

[Morfeo]

Yeah, she should be good about getting you the correct sync for the few problematic consoles. I just feel the need to mention it since, while sync types are all equal in many situations, there are some instances where one is clearly superior.

Yeah, thanks for reminding me. As you probably figured out from my questions, I dont really understand all this yet, so Im very happy for all the helpful advice I can get from my fellow framemeister-gaffers!

 

[Peltz]

Nice Mega! How many CRTs does that put you at now?

 

[NormalFish]

whats the "standard" most common sync type? i have ps2 scart cables that i used to use on my scart enabled tv but i have a framemeister on the way.

if you get a generic cable, it will almost certainly be composite video for sync. Thus, if you're using scart on the PS2 on a framemeister (seems to be okay on CRTs) you'll want a new cable.

I'm not sure what sync the official sony cables or other higher quality cables would use.

 

[speedlolita]

if you get a generic cable, it will almost certainly be composite video for sync. Thus, if you're using scart on the PS2 on a framemeister (seems to be okay on CRTs) you'll want a new cable.

I'm not sure what sync the official sony cables or other higher quality cables would use.

They use composite video for sync. I have both the PS1 and PS2 official cables.

Beautiful quality, correctly wired for operation in Europe (as you'd expect from Sony!) and they give a wonderful image on my PVMs.

 

[NormalFish]

They use composite video for sync. I have both the PS1 and PS2 official cables.

Beautiful quality, correctly wired for operation in Europe (as you'd expect from Sony!) and they give a wonderful image on my PVMs.

Yeah on a PVM I'm sure they're great. FM doesn't like the way the PS2 sends it for whatever reason.

 

[speedlolita]

Well, I guess the FM picks up the extra "noise" of composite video - the information that it doesn't need.

So in that way, c-video or luma are better.

I've considered tapping c-video straight from the CXD chip in my SCPH-5500 and hooking it up to the c-video pin on the multi-av connector... I think it should work! Though the only real improvement would be on my LCD I think, so maybe not worth the hassle?

Might be worth investigating at least.

 

[Mega]

Nice Mega! How many CRTs does that put you at now?

Seven!... if counting the partially damaged spare HD JVC and the little PVM with screen burn-in.

I keep staring at these new-looking 15" JVCs but besides lacking HD I think the tubes have identical properties to my 17" JVC... so probably redundant to get it.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

I just got with component cables into my FM for the PS2.

 

[protomouse]

Any pointers on how to set up PAL60 over composite (XRGB mini)? I either get a frozen screen (see picture), black-and-white signal, or sometimes nothing at all on my SuperCIC PAL SNES.

My RGB cables haven't shipped yet, so composite is all I have.

*High five!* Welcome to the club.

Thanks .

 

[NormalFish]

Well, I guess the FM picks up the extra "noise" of composite video - the information that it doesn't need.

So in that way, c-video or luma are better.

I've considered tapping c-video straight from the CXD chip in my SCPH-5500 and hooking it up to the c-video pin on the multi-av connector... I think it should work! Though the only real improvement would be on my LCD I think, so maybe not worth the hassle?

Might be worth investigating at least.

Afaik it's incredibly trivial pulling csync straight from the chip, but it won't really get you anything since luma + sync strike works for everything.

 

[speedlolita]

If you're using a sync strike you might as well just use c-video.

Unless you mean luma OR a sync strike/any LM1881 solution.

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

On this topic, this morning I snagged a new-in-box JVC TM-A13SU production monitor for $35 on ebay. Its best connection type is S-Video which is fine by me... I'm covered by my other monitors when it comes to RGB. I'm more interested in its diminutive size and weight, how the P22 phosphors differ from the higher grade SMPTE-C, what games look like on its modest 325 TVL... and of course the fact that it's brand spanking new, zero hours on the tube.

On Atari Age it's mentioned that this is the successor to the TM-13U which itself is the inspiration for the Commodore 64's 1702 CRT monitor (also made by JVC). http://atariage.com/forums/topic/247508-modding-the-jvc-tm-a13su-monitor/

That's my main unit as I've been unable to find any other PVM-style displays in my area.

Unfortunately mine has a big dent in its casing and I grossly overpaid, judging by the fact that you paid $35 for a NEW model, but c'est la vie.

Edit: If you don't mind me asking, what category were you looking within for your JVC? For the longest time I've been against getting a CRT shipped but I guess if I can get a new one in-box for a decent price it should be fine since the original shipping boxes are pretty well padded.

 

[NormalFish]

If you're using a sync strike you might as well just use c-video.

Unless you mean luma OR a sync strike/any LM1881 solution.

Yeah, should work with composite video for sync, too. I'm just always skeptical of composite video for sync since if you're going to have issues, it's with that.

 

[RoninChaos]

So this has been a journey. Thank you guys for your help.

In a few weeks I'm going to have the guys from My Life in Gaming on a podcast I do with my friends. Anything you guys would like me to ask them?

 

[Mega]

That's my main unit as I've been unable to find any other PVM-style displays in my area.

Unfortunately mine has a big dent in its casing and I grossly overpaid, judging by the fact that you paid $35 for a NEW model, but c'est la vie.

Edit: If you don't mind me asking, what category were you looking within for your JVC? For the longest time I've been against getting a CRT shipped but I guess if I can get a new one in-box for a decent price it should be fine since the original shipping boxes are pretty well padded.

Most monitors will fall under Cameras & Photo > Video Production & Editing > Video Monitors

But I don't look in categories because stuff sometimes appears in other places on ebay. I run ordinary key word searches and try different mix of words to see what comes up. If you type Sony CRT you may not see the same results as typing in Sony production monitor. Different stuff also comes up if you look for Sony 13" and 19" instead of Sony 14" and 20". Measurement standards changed at one point but the newer 14/20 are the same as 13/19.

Here's a great example:
JVC 17-inch High Definition HDTV MONITOR-DT-V1710CG

^Last December I got that for $80 Best Offer with three RGB input cards. It didn't come up in a lot of the regular searches and it was categorized somewhere else. Just keep trying, I'm surprised you're still on the same 13" S-video monitor. A lot of deals right up your alley have come and gone.

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

Most monitors will fall under Cameras & Photo > Video Production & Editing > Video Monitors

But I don't look in categories because stuff sometimes appears in other places on ebay. I run ordinary key word searches and try different mix of words to see what comes up. If you type Sony CRT you may not see the same results as typing in Sony production monitor. Different stuff also comes up if you look for Sony 13" and 19" instead of Sony 14" and 20". Measurement standards changed at one point but the newer 14/20 are the same as 13/19.

Here's a great example:
JVC 17-inch High Definition HDTV MONITOR-DT-V1710CG

^Last December I got that for $80 Best Offer with three RGB input cards. It didn't come up in a lot of the regular searches and it was categorized somewhere else. Just keep trying, I'm surprised you're still on the same 13" S-video monitor. A lot of deals right up your alley have come and gone.

Well, as I mentioned I wasn't really looking for something to be shipped as shipping a CRT sounds expensive and like you're just asking for damage, so I've been keeping an eye out on local sellers via eBay and Craigslist but it's been a fat lot of nothing for the last few months.

 

[televator]

Any pointers on how to set up PAL60 over composite (XRGB mini)? I either get a frozen screen (see picture), black-and-white signal, or sometimes nothing at all on my SuperCIC PAL SNES.



My RGB cables haven't shipped yet, so composite is all I have.



Thanks .

Wish I could help with that. I'm in NTSC land and don't use composite at all.

 

[nogoodnamesleft]

if you get a generic cable, it will almost certainly be composite video for sync. Thus, if you're using scart on the PS2 on a framemeister (seems to be okay on CRTs) you'll want a new cable.

I'm not sure what sync the official sony cables or other higher quality cables would use.

hello, thank you. is this the one i need?

https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk...-playstation-1-2-ps1-ps2-rgb-scart-cable-lead

 

[Beer Monkey]

Well, as I mentioned I wasn't really looking for something to be shipped as shipping a CRT sounds expensive and like you're just asking for damage, so I've been keeping an eye out on local sellers via eBay and Craigslist but it's been a fat lot of nothing for the last few months.

Here's a pro-tip for buying locally. Search 'Olympus OEV' in your local area on eBay. Those are Sony PVMs rebranded for medical use.

Medical PVMs can also be found on http://www.dotmed.com and you can search by zip code with radius.

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

Here's a pro-tip for buying locally. Search 'Olympus OEV' in your local area on eBay. Those are Sony PVMs rebranded for medical use.

Medical PVMs can also be found on http://www.dotmed.com and you can search by zip code with radius.

No OEV models on eBay in my area, and no PVMs or OEVs on dotmed in my area. Bummer.

 

[Timu]

If you're using a sync strike you might as well just use c-video.

Unless you mean luma OR a sync strike/any LM1881 solution.

Composite video as sync works perfectly with the sync strike, I would know as I use one.

 

[speedlolita]

Composite video as sync works perfectly with the sync strike, I would know as I use one.

Um, I know? The LM1881 strips away the additional information from the composite video to create pure composite sync.

I'm not sure I said it wouldn't work but just putting that out there! Thanks anyway I guess, that sync strike looks like a tidy solution for those who need it.

 

[Timu]

Um, I know? The LM1881 strips away the additional information from the composite video to create pure composite sync.

I'm not sure I said it wouldn't work but just putting that out there! Thanks anyway I guess, that sync strike looks like a tidy solution for those who need it.

Yep, I love the sync strike, so useful for direct RGB capture. I never tried sync on luma with it though.

 

[Mega]

Well, as I mentioned I wasn't really looking for something to be shipped as shipping a CRT sounds expensive and like you're just asking for damage, so I've been keeping an eye out on local sellers via eBay and Craigslist but it's been a fat lot of nothing for the last few months.

You should put aside your aversion to having a CRT shipped. You're looking for uncommon monitors so it's not sensible to limit yourself to the odd random listings on sites like CL.

Shipping a CRT isn't always that expensive (I've occasionally seen some pretty cheap numbers) and I have had several arrive without any problems at all. Look in the shipping information for FedEx Home/Ground or USPS. Avoid listings that use UPS. Or if it's a monitor you really want ask the seller to use FedEx if possible... I had one seller switch it no problem since he already had an account with that shipper and it all worked out.

 

[NormalFish]

hello, thank you. is this the one i need?

https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk...-playstation-1-2-ps1-ps2-rgb-scart-cable-lead

yup, looks good to me. The Luma option will work fine. the Csync option (which has a sync strike) will also work.

 

[protomouse]

Wish I could help with that. I'm in NTSC land and don't use composite at all.

Apparently it's a bug. The issue goes away if you zoom in, but games are of course unplayable like that.

 

[geniusbits]

I think one piece of information lacking in the thread, relative to other points, is what HDTVs people use/recommend in tandem with the XRGB Mini. I currently use my old Sony Wega 720p LCD projection TV, which I know must be far from ideal. The TV has treated me well and has a great set of speakers, but I have been looking to upgrade to something full 1080p (preferably plasma) that can be wall mounted. The problem is that there are almost no resources of people discussing their experiences with different types (LCD vs. plasma), brands or models of TVs for displaying upscaled retro content.

Personally my goal is to find a late-model plasma with low use that someone is selling to upgrade to 4k, and will ride that out as long as I can for current gen (PS4) and upscaler use. I'm not interested in 4k and don't even own anything that puts out more than 1080p content. Does anyone else have an interest in this or am I barking up the wrong tree?

 

[Mega]

If anyone is looking for a quality scart switch I found an awesome deal on ebay. There's a seller with a bunch of Hama 3-input Scart switches. $9 each! These normally sell for $50-$60. They work flawlessly and are better than the generic lookalikes that go for $15-20.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hama-AV-100...-SCART-AV-Selector-100S-OVP-NEU-/371605176024

 

[Morfeo]

If anyone is looking for a quality scart switch I found an awesome deal on ebay. There's a seller with a bunch of Hama 3-input Scart switches. $9 each! These normally sell for $50-$60. They work flawlessly and are better than the generic lookalikes that go for $15-20.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hama-AV-100...-SCART-AV-Selector-100S-OVP-NEU-/371605176024

Hmmm, should I buy this, or wait for the next batch of 8-in-1 from retrorgb?

 

[Mega]

Well, this is probably even better. The Bandridge 5 input scart switch for $22. Think I'm in for a couple.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bandridge-5-Way-Scart-Selector-SVB7725-/252350062378

 

[Beer Monkey]

I think one piece of information lacking in the thread, relative to other points, is what HDTVs people use/recommend in tandem with the XRGB Mini. I currently use my old Sony Wega 720p LCD projection TV, which I know must be far from ideal. The TV has treated me well and has a great set of speakers, but I have been looking to upgrade to something full 1080p (preferably plasma) that can be wall mounted.

I'd probably look for a 2013 Panasonic plasma if I were you. I think they got down to about 36ms of lag during that year, which was their final one for plasma, and the black levels approach that of the 2008 Pioneer Kuro.

 

[Morfeo]

So why are those scart switches suddenly becoming affordable again, ive been searching for months for a decently prices one.

 

[Mega]

They're not getting cheaper. These are two lone sellers who happen to have lower prices, one in Germany and the other in the Netherlands. All the other listings are the typical $60~ for the Hama and $150~ for the Bandridge.

 

[Khaz]

Well, this is probably even better. The Bandridge 5 input scart switch for $22. Think I'm in for a couple.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bandridge-5-Way-Scart-Selector-SVB7725-/252350062378

There are also a bunch of automatic Bandridge switches on eBay. They are a tad pricier, but the luxury of not having to press a button every time you change console is worth it imo.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Bandrid...497238?hash=item35ff0fe056:g:XZIAAOSwzgRW1fAC
Shipping from Europe may be expensive though.