It doesn't help that on Amazon there's no mention of what inputs an audio micro system has. One has to look at what units they can afford and the look for the manufacturer's spec on another site.
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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
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It doesn't help that on Amazon there's no mention of what inputs an audio micro system has. One has to look at what units they can afford and the look for the manufacturer's spec on another site.
You need to decide how you will use your stuff to make plans. Do you want one or several output? Do you want to be able to have multiple sources live and switch between them, or do you want something with minimal user input? Are you dead set on using the PS2 Digital out?
Here's my setup, for minimal hassle once done. Everything is analogue audio out, adapted to RCA if needed. My automatic Scart switch has audio out, so I only have one cable to manage. Same for my automatic Component switch. These two plus a couple of other sources get mixed together in a passive audio mixer (no power needed on this one). The output of the mixer get into the output of the amp I linked earlier, which is connected to speakers or headphones. The downside is if I have more than one source on at the same time, I hear both. But I don't care because I only play one console at once. With all this, no buttons to press except for the console, the TV, and the amp. The front input and Bluetooth are to future-proof the thing a bit, if I need to temporarily plug stuff in (and I had to).
If you want to use Digital audio, then you will have to manually swap between analogue and digital on your amp, ie change the channel between the PS2 and everything else. If you get a more complex amp with several analogue inputs, you will have to manually swap between them (and remember which channel is which console). Upside is that you can use several consoles at once and choose to hear whichever.
I'm a lazy ass so I tend to recommend automatic switches and passive mixers. Some TVs wake up automatically with a proper Scart signal too so you don't even need to turn it on or off, it just does that along the console. Unfortunately for me it seems Sony Tvs don't do that.
speedlolita
Member
Used to enjoy that with my old Ferguson set and my official PS2 SCART. Bliss.
None of the 5 or so consumer Trinitron I've purchased the past duration of buying old CRT have done this though, like you say.
nogoodnamesleft
Banned
I have the CSY2100 (which the link you posted is a clone of) due to some people in this thread reccomending and I can also confirm it does a fantastic job. HDTVs might have issues displaying 240p via component but my CRT converts scart to component perfectly. Even tried it via scart directly on the same TV and it looks absolutely identical.
NormalFish
Banned
I'll try to lay it out more completely.
I want...
- 2 output channels that I can toggle between. One for my speakers, one for my headphones.
- 1 microphone input, though this isn't mandatory. I'm not sure how this would interact with my PC, so it might not be worth it.
- at least 1 RCA input for my SFC. I'd be fine with more, for other consoles, but I feel no strong need for having tons of channels.
- An input for my PS2. I'm not set on Digital, but that seems to be the best way to go unless I get a SCART cable with RCA break out, which would require replacing a perfectly good cable that I already have.
As far as usability, I am perfectly happy to toggle between things, though in theory the ability to run any mix of audio inputs to any mix of audio outputs would probably prove invaluable for some of what I do (that is to say, running PS2 and PC audio through my speakers/headphones or running only PC audio through them, or running only PS2 audio, or running PS2 audio to headphones and PC audio to speakers).
Again, I'm really bad with audio stuff so You'll have to take it slow with me.
Many amps have two output, some have more. In the back you have the connection for your speakers, and in the front you have a headphone port. When the headphones are plugged in, the speakers are usually shut off.
I would suggest you keep using the microphone input of your PC directly, since it will be the only thing that will record, and you will have a direct access to it anyway.
1 RCA input is enough if you mix your sources. Having more than one RCA input usually means that you need to switch between them manually. Amps with several inputs won't let you mix them, you need a separate device to do that, and with it an amp with a single input is then enough.
You don't need a new Scart cable for your PS2, a simple adapter like this one is enough. If you keep it digital, you won't be able to hear both your PS2 and something else, unless you get into some expensive mixing console. But you don't want that.
One source to headphones and another to speakers is quite uncommon. A typical amplifier deals with one source at a time and directs it to one or more outputs. Else we would venture into the wonderful world of the mixing consoles and you'd be in for a whole another headache.
I would suggest you keep using the microphone input of your PC directly, since it will be the only thing that will record, and you will have a direct access to it anyway.
1 RCA input is enough if you mix your sources. Having more than one RCA input usually means that you need to switch between them manually. Amps with several inputs won't let you mix them, you need a separate device to do that, and with it an amp with a single input is then enough.
You don't need a new Scart cable for your PS2, a simple adapter like this one is enough. If you keep it digital, you won't be able to hear both your PS2 and something else, unless you get into some expensive mixing console. But you don't want that.
One source to headphones and another to speakers is quite uncommon. A typical amplifier deals with one source at a time and directs it to one or more outputs. Else we would venture into the wonderful world of the mixing consoles and you'd be in for a whole another headache.
Toro VGA box. It outputs 480p RGB via Scart which the Framemeister can use.
NormalFish
Banned
Wait, so do mixers typically not have multiple outputs?
I think the last time I looked in to this I was thinking a mixer was what I needed. What does an amp offer that a mixer does not?
The amplifier amplifies and the mixer mixes.
The amp takes a single input and work on it so it can be heard, over speakers or headphones. If you have more than one input or output, you need to switch between them, only one is dealt with at any time. The headphones socket has a switch inside to commute the output from the speakers to the headphones.
The mixer takes several inputs, merges them however you want, and output it to one or several outputs. It does not, however, process the data in any way.
If you want two independent simultaneous audible outputs, you want a mixer with two outputs, connected to two amplifiers. You can then use the mixer to redirect whatever input to whichever output, and then have the amp amplifies said output.
NormalFish
Banned
so if I were to plug headphones in to an output on a mixer, I wouldn't hear anything? It seems odd to me that I'd need an amp for this, give everything I'm using right now is without an external amp like that.
What? For real? Progressive scan over rgb-scart?
Yes and it is glorious.
I'm guessing you are using active speakers (that you plug to an outlet), which contains a small amplifier in it. The external amp gives you modularity and access to better speakers and amplifiers.
NormalFish
Banned
If I had no real desire to move away from ampless desk speakers, a mixer would be sufficient?
Yes.
NormalFish
Banned
I see... That makes things easier, I think. Thanks for the help!
Never hook up powered speakers to an amp. You will probably damage them.
NormalFish, I have seen devices that fit the description of what you're looking for. What you need is an audio matrix switch. This is among the cheapest one I could find:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0014Y1IUC/?tag=neogaf0e-20
(Same model in this listing but cheaper)
This one has a digital audio input:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000S1CEQ4/?tag=neogaf0e-20
Cheapest switch, has component instead of composite and s-video:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000KVP3QU/?tag=neogaf0e-20
If these all seem expensive at $100-$200, keep in mind that they can get into the thousands. There are cheaper devices like this 4x2 audio switch (4 input, 2 output), but they will not do what you specified: one input to one output, another input to the second output. Instead this and the rest of the cheap switches will only send one input to all outputs. This is pointless if you're only using it for audio and you may as well get a 4x1 switch and connect a mixer to that one output.
If you get one of the true matrix switches linked above, you will need something between the switch and the headphones to control audio or else sound will pipe into the headphones at full blast. Something cheap like the Fiio E6 headphone amp would probably do the trick (get a male 3.5 mm to 2 male RCA adapter cable to plug the Fiio amp into the audio switch).
NormalFish, I have seen devices that fit the description of what you're looking for. What you need is an audio matrix switch. This is among the cheapest one I could find:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0014Y1IUC/?tag=neogaf0e-20
(Same model in this listing but cheaper)
This one has a digital audio input:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000S1CEQ4/?tag=neogaf0e-20
Cheapest switch, has component instead of composite and s-video:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000KVP3QU/?tag=neogaf0e-20
If these all seem expensive at $100-$200, keep in mind that they can get into the thousands. There are cheaper devices like this 4x2 audio switch (4 input, 2 output), but they will not do what you specified: one input to one output, another input to the second output. Instead this and the rest of the cheap switches will only send one input to all outputs. This is pointless if you're only using it for audio and you may as well get a 4x1 switch and connect a mixer to that one output.
If you get one of the true matrix switches linked above, you will need something between the switch and the headphones to control audio or else sound will pipe into the headphones at full blast. Something cheap like the Fiio E6 headphone amp would probably do the trick (get a male 3.5 mm to 2 male RCA adapter cable to plug the Fiio amp into the audio switch).
NormalFish
Banned
so why get a matrix like that rather than a mixer?
It's not really a choice between a matrix switch and a mixer... they don't serve the same purpose.
You want multiple outputs so that each output is piping out different audio. Output 1: Desktop speakers. Output 2: Headphones. Etc. The matrix functionality comes from the fact that you can send your SNES audio to your speakers OR your headphones OR both at once. Maybe SNES on speakers and Genesis on headphones OR reverse them. Whatever you want.
If you have a one-output switch, you want a mixer with multiple units so that you can connect your multiple devices and not have to keep unplugging/plugging each time you need to use one. Back to the SNES/Gen example: your SNES and Genesis are both connected to the single output (desktop speakers) via the mixer. If you have both consoles on, you will hear audio from both through the speakers unless you turn down the volume knob on the mixer for one of the systems.
Given all you've said, you are in fact looking for an audio matrix switch. I myself have a full video and audio matrix switch, but that's more because I have multiple monitors. Yes, it is the absolute best thing ever.
You want multiple outputs so that each output is piping out different audio. Output 1: Desktop speakers. Output 2: Headphones. Etc. The matrix functionality comes from the fact that you can send your SNES audio to your speakers OR your headphones OR both at once. Maybe SNES on speakers and Genesis on headphones OR reverse them. Whatever you want.
If you have a one-output switch, you want a mixer with multiple units so that you can connect your multiple devices and not have to keep unplugging/plugging each time you need to use one. Back to the SNES/Gen example: your SNES and Genesis are both connected to the single output (desktop speakers) via the mixer. If you have both consoles on, you will hear audio from both through the speakers unless you turn down the volume knob on the mixer for one of the systems.
Given all you've said, you are in fact looking for an audio matrix switch. I myself have a full video and audio matrix switch, but that's more because I have multiple monitors. Yes, it is the absolute best thing ever.
all that talk about the speakers reminded me why i picked a receiver to join all my stuff.
even though it's bulky and expensive, it's the simplest way to hook up everything. i have basically every device reach the receiver and then i just choose the input of what i'm using.
currently the thing has 11 different pieces of equipment hooked to it. 4 of those go through a HDMI switcher since i ran out of inputs a while ago but no way i was investing in a new receiver at this point in time.
i don't use headphones normally but my setup does have the capacity of accomodating everything through headphones.
even though it's bulky and expensive, it's the simplest way to hook up everything. i have basically every device reach the receiver and then i just choose the input of what i'm using.
currently the thing has 11 different pieces of equipment hooked to it. 4 of those go through a HDMI switcher since i ran out of inputs a while ago but no way i was investing in a new receiver at this point in time.
i don't use headphones normally but my setup does have the capacity of accomodating everything through headphones.
Yeah a receiver is one and done. An audio processor, an audio DAC, video ADC, amplifier and AV switch in one.
NormalFish
Banned
So the reason for a matrix like that would be so that you can switch up which signals are going to which output, then? Could I still, if I wanted to, listen to both my PC and my PS2 through the same output, for example?It's not really a choice between a matrix switch and a mixer... they don't serve the same purpose.
You want multiple outputs so that each output is piping out different audio. Output 1: Desktop speakers. Output 2: Headphones. Etc. The matrix functionality comes from the fact that you can send your SNES audio to your speakers OR your headphones OR both at once. Maybe SNES on speakers and Genesis on headphones OR reverse them. Whatever you want.
If you have a one-output switch, you want a mixer with multiple units so that you can connect your multiple devices and not have to keep unplugging/plugging each time you need to use one. Back to the SNES/Gen example: your SNES and Genesis are both connected to the single output (desktop speakers) via the mixer. If you have both consoles on, you will hear audio from both through the speakers unless you turn down the volume knob on the mixer for one of the systems.
Given all you've said, you are in fact looking for an audio matrix switch. I myself have a full video and audio matrix switch, but that's more because I have multiple monitors. Yes, it is the absolute best thing ever.
Yes, it gives the utmost versatility.
Re your second question:
On the switches I linked? Maybe, I'm not sure (probably not). On my switch... no. See pic below of the Extron matrix switch I have. I can only select one input (top row) at a time and then send it to one or several outputs (bottom row). If I redo the steps and select a new input and send it to the same previous output, the new input takes over.
If you connected your PS2 and PC's audio to a mixer and connected that to one of the switch's inputs, you could then send the audio from both to an output. But why do this if the reason you wanted a switch was to send different audio sources to different listening devices? This would defeat the purpose. To listen to music on PC while you play a video game? In that case get two sets of stereo speakers and send PC to Output 1 (1st set of speakers) and PS2 to Output 2 (2nd set of speakers).
The only real practical use for multiple sources on one switch input is if you run out of inputs. See Madao's post about using a HDMI switch on his receiver. I myself have a scart switch on one of my Extron's inputs.
Re your second question:
On the switches I linked? Maybe, I'm not sure (probably not). On my switch... no. See pic below of the Extron matrix switch I have. I can only select one input (top row) at a time and then send it to one or several outputs (bottom row). If I redo the steps and select a new input and send it to the same previous output, the new input takes over.
If you connected your PS2 and PC's audio to a mixer and connected that to one of the switch's inputs, you could then send the audio from both to an output. But why do this if the reason you wanted a switch was to send different audio sources to different listening devices? This would defeat the purpose. To listen to music on PC while you play a video game? In that case get two sets of stereo speakers and send PC to Output 1 (1st set of speakers) and PS2 to Output 2 (2nd set of speakers).
The only real practical use for multiple sources on one switch input is if you run out of inputs. See Madao's post about using a HDMI switch on his receiver. I myself have a scart switch on one of my Extron's inputs.
I'm thinking about slightly defocusing my BVM tonight to see how it affects the scanlines. I will restore the focus if the effect is undesirable. I'll make sure to take some pictures if I get to it (and don't electrocute myself).
Awesome. Thanks!
Awesome. Thanks!
Beer Monkey
Member
Dude fixing convergence on a mid 1950s RCA round tube television.
https://youtu.be/1AWG61TAIHg?t=1227
Gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. Guys, our lifetimes are still gonna have working broadcast/pro CRT monitors.
https://youtu.be/1AWG61TAIHg?t=1227
Gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. Guys, our lifetimes are still gonna have working broadcast/pro CRT monitors.
NormalFish
Banned
No, I want the ability to combine and direct audio to 2 different outputs. Both for my own personal reasons (listening to music and playing games) or for recording purposes. Sorry, I thought I had made it clear that being able to do that was just an idea, rather than the main goal.
Also, a 2nd set of speakers I'm happy with would probably run me about the same as a 4 channel mixer, judging by my quick searches, and not work with headphones.
As long as the tube is intact, and the cannon can spit out electrons, it's repairable. Whether there will still be people with the knowledge to repair it is the big unknown though.
nogoodnamesleft
Banned
got my xrgb mini yesterday. hooked it up. ps2 and ps1 games so far.
it is fucking glorious.
it is fucking glorious.
Isn't it? Sooo good for an HDTV. Welcome to the dream.
So for example, you want to send combined PC and PS2 audio to a pair of speakers and to your headphones? Nothing does this natively. Using the matrix switch you have to put a mixer on an input, connect both PS2 and PC to the mixer, and send that input to your two outputs/audio devices.
NormalFish
Banned
Well the essential bit is being able to hear desktop and console audio through my headphones simultaneously while outputting to my pc as well while streaming. Everything else is bonus.
I wish I had one of those. Have a b/w one ('53). But color is hard to come by.
What about
I couldn't find a single box to replace the two mixers in the middle. The audio output are doubled with a simple Y cable.
[edit] You should look into DJ mixing sets, I believe they may do what you want.
NormalFish
Banned
Yeah, that's what I'm looking at now. I might just go to a brick and mortar store in town and ask around. Shopping for these things online when everything is poorly labeled is a pain.What about
I couldn't find a single box to replace the two mixers in the middle. The audio output are doubled with a simple Y cable.
[edit] You should look into DJ mixing sets, I believe they may do what you want.
So I decided to adjust the focus pots on my BVM yesterday and see how it would affect the image quality. It turns out it's very easy to do on this monitor and it allows for a lot of tweaking.
I removed the top and right panels in order to access the pots. Both panels are attached to the monitor with just two (phillips) screws towards the back. Removing them is effortless.
Front of BVM-20F1U (little to no adjustments made here, just for reference)
The pots can be found on the top right on the right side of the monitor. You can see the cavity in the plate in the picture below.
Right side of monitor with top and side panels removed
Closeup of focus pots
The left pot, labeled Focus 1, adjusts the focus of the lines based on the intensity of the light. When defocused, scanlines in bright areas of the image will get thicker and blend together entirely if you defocus enough. Make sure to rotate the pot counterclockwise for a uniform effect. If you rotate clockwise it will only affect the center of the image, resulting in a less than uniform picture. Surprisingly, the image remains fairly sharp when making these adjustments.
The right pot blurs the entire screen without having too much effect on the lines. Turning clockwise and counterclockwise results in a different kind of blur, where I feel again counterclockwise is more appealing for a retro look.
Between adjusting these pots you can tweak the image to your heart's content. In a way it's similar to adjusting a CRT filter on an emulator. I haven't quite settled on what look I prefer most but I'm happy to report that defocusing the screen (slightly) can give very pleasing results.
I removed the top and right panels in order to access the pots. Both panels are attached to the monitor with just two (phillips) screws towards the back. Removing them is effortless.
Front of BVM-20F1U (little to no adjustments made here, just for reference)
The pots can be found on the top right on the right side of the monitor. You can see the cavity in the plate in the picture below.
Right side of monitor with top and side panels removed
Closeup of focus pots
The left pot, labeled Focus 1, adjusts the focus of the lines based on the intensity of the light. When defocused, scanlines in bright areas of the image will get thicker and blend together entirely if you defocus enough. Make sure to rotate the pot counterclockwise for a uniform effect. If you rotate clockwise it will only affect the center of the image, resulting in a less than uniform picture. Surprisingly, the image remains fairly sharp when making these adjustments.
The right pot blurs the entire screen without having too much effect on the lines. Turning clockwise and counterclockwise results in a different kind of blur, where I feel again counterclockwise is more appealing for a retro look.
Between adjusting these pots you can tweak the image to your heart's content. In a way it's similar to adjusting a CRT filter on an emulator. I haven't quite settled on what look I prefer most but I'm happy to report that defocusing the screen (slightly) can give very pleasing results.
cyborgnumberblue
Member
Are there any ways to adjust the geometry of PVMs?
I may be using that term incorrectly; what I mean is that there is more displayed on the right side of the screen than the left. For example, in Street Fighter Alpha 2, between the edge of the display and the life bar on the right side, there is about _ much space, whereas the other side, the life bar's outline ends at the screen edge.
I may be using that term incorrectly; what I mean is that there is more displayed on the right side of the screen than the left. For example, in Street Fighter Alpha 2, between the edge of the display and the life bar on the right side, there is about _ much space, whereas the other side, the life bar's outline ends at the screen edge.
On the BVM above it can simply be done in the standard menus. Geometry adjustments for PVMs can often be done through the service menu. If not that way, yes, there will be pots (I remember adjusting my PVM-2530 that way). So it depends on your monitor.
cyborgnumberblue
Member
I've got a PVM-1953ST so I'll try digging around in the service menu.
Really nice stuff, ToD! I've always been leery to crack open my CRTs and fiddle inside but adjusting focus pots on a BVM looks like a painless process. I've been lucky that my other CRTs (without all the settings in onscreen service menus) look really good for the most part.
That would depend on the model. If it has a menu button, press Degauss and Enter to go into the service menu to adjust geometry and screen size/position. A couple of PVMs have a slide out tray with pots, most older ones you have to open like ToD did. Keep in mind that what looks good for one game or console may not apply to the next game or console. It can vary a lot so adjust to a happy compromise for all your games.
q.e.d.
geniusbits
Member
Yeah but for short hand I think it's fair for someone to just say that their high TVL monitor has thick scan lines in a mildly causative way. It's like saying HD content on HD consoles has more detail than SD content on SD consoles. It's not the HD output of the console that adds detail, but rather the detail put into the image to begin with that is resolvable by the HD output of the console. But it's still a 1-1 correlation that the content made for HD consoles has more detail than that made for SD consoles, just like the scan lines that show up on higher TVL monitors are thicker than those on lower TVL monitors. And that is for physical design reasons, not simply a coincidence.
Very happy to hear this!
Nice! I got mine yesterday as well, but still waiting for the correct cables to get any use out of it. It was awesome just to feel it though, was way lighter than I had anticipated. Of course it got hit by custom for some reason though, but considering i had told Solaris to downwrite the value by quite alot, it wasnt anything bad, so i just let it slide. Anyways, one question, what AC cable are my fellow continental europeans using? The plug that was included doesnt fit in the wall here without some kind of adapter, which I own, but would prefer not to use.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
OSSC's first big batch will apparently be shipping out in late may. I hope I'm part of it, cuz I don't particularly want to wait much longer.
Are you equipped to do captures, by any chance?
Beer Monkey
Member
The JVC/Panasonic monitors that Mega and I use have pots that are somewhat obstructed, making this a minor pain.
End the end I decided to just use the JVC when I want a softer picture, at least for now. It's got 15,000 hours of use on it and it has a softer pic. The Panasonic was essentially unused when I got it.
I did find out who makes the aperture grille CRTs in these monitors, though. It's Mitsubishi! They make the picture tube, the circuitry was made by JVC.
nogoodnamesleft
Banned
im in AU and i just use an adapter (not transformer/converter)
Like this
http://www.converters.tv/products/i..._power_plug_adapter_australia_model_0_714.jpg
Works fine
Yeah, guess that is also a cheap option.
Anyways, since I dont have the euro-scart to xrgb adapter yet, i wasnt really able to test out the machine, but i did plug in my ps3 just for fun, which predictably didnt change much. At least i now know the machine works, and have managed to change language to english
How did you find that out? Says it on the tube?
And what about Ikegamis? I thought they had Panasonic tubes. Are they all Mitsubishi?
speedlolita
Member
I took a picture when I adjusted the geometry on my 9" PVM a few years back now.
Having it powered up like this, I was a little cautious! lol
Having it powered up like this, I was a little cautious! lol
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