Yeah, I only realized that after the fact. I think I was expecting an unprecedented miracle out of this mod without realizing it.
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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
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Yeah, I only realized that after the fact. I think I was expecting an unprecedented miracle out of this mod without realizing it.
Not really... Just that in most circumstances, you go with HDMI mod if your playing N64 on a modern display and go with RGB mod if your playing N64 on a CRT. That's why, in my humble opinion neither is actually superior to the other. Both serve different purposes.
However, HDMI mod > RGB mod + framemeister. So in that sense, you're 100% correct if you are not factoring CRTs into the equation.
Oh shit, I had just woken up and saw the Metroid avi. So I just thought it was you. lol
Anyway, yeah, it's just like the Framemeister in that sense - 240p line doubled to 480p. 240p games even when line doubled to 480p REALLY should be scanlined. That's where I can't understand the one guy from MLiG. He says he likes the "sharp pixel look", but it looks like ass. It's as bad as the Gameboy Player before 240 forcing. BTW, if he's forcing GBP to 240p only to line double it again with the FM... I really hope that's not the case...
Also the Ultra N64 regrettably doesn't have a large enough frame buffer to get the most out of 480i games (and there was no way it was going to force true 480p). It does a simple weave deinterlace. It's fine on static images, but turn the camera around at full tilt and watch the combing artifact just fuck your shit up. lol
I wish it could have been better with motion compensated deinterlacing, but it would have cost more and not very many games even support 480i to begin with. So I understand why the developer took the shortcut with the deinterlacing capabilities of the mod. And anyway 480i line doubled is just sinfully bad for PQ, so I suppose what's there is better than nothing.
Back to my personal testing: Here are some examples of the artifacting I see on PS2 hardware;
Doubled edges
Zig-zag
Compare that to edges on PS3 @480p, smoothing off
If you read back early in this thread you'll get a better idea of what I mean. No point dwelling on it if either seller has improved or worsened their cables since then. Just get what's best for you.
Edit: If you have the skills to open up and take a snap of your cables I'd be interested to see if they do more shielding now. If I remember right they used to leave them bare while retro_console_accessories had sleeved the wires.
SO EXCITED!
So a few posts back I mentioned that I saw a Craigslist ad for a xrbg-mini and modded SNES Jr., well they got back to me and I got a great deal!
For $200 I got:
XRGB Mini, with an English remote ( the overlay was just pre-already applied).
JP21 > RGB in adapter
Component to D-Terminal adapter
RGB modded SNES Jr.
SNES av port > JP21-Scart cable
Final Fantasy III (label upgrade baby! and a good friend of mine gets my old copy)
Link to the Past (another dupe, but can trade in at local gaming store)
Donkey Kong Country (another dupe)
Mario Paint (sans mouse)
Batman Returns
I've been playing with profiles over at pixel purist (http://www.firebrandx.com/pixelpurist.html) and I'm just blown away at how this looks in person.
So my next steps are to get an EuroScart to RGB in adapter so I can get the proper Scart cables for my Model 1 Genesis and Saturn. Then a toro box for my DreamCast Any other suggestions? I also own the following (all non modded):
TG-16, N64, NES (front loader), OG XBOX, PS1, PS2, Game Cube, Wii, Master System, Super Retro Trio (probably won't use that any more).
So a few posts back I mentioned that I saw a Craigslist ad for a xrbg-mini and modded SNES Jr., well they got back to me and I got a great deal!
For $200 I got:
XRGB Mini, with an English remote ( the overlay was just pre-already applied).
JP21 > RGB in adapter
Component to D-Terminal adapter
RGB modded SNES Jr.
SNES av port > JP21-Scart cable
Final Fantasy III (label upgrade baby! and a good friend of mine gets my old copy)
Link to the Past (another dupe, but can trade in at local gaming store)
Donkey Kong Country (another dupe)
Mario Paint (sans mouse)
Batman Returns
I've been playing with profiles over at pixel purist (http://www.firebrandx.com/pixelpurist.html) and I'm just blown away at how this looks in person.
So my next steps are to get an EuroScart to RGB in adapter so I can get the proper Scart cables for my Model 1 Genesis and Saturn. Then a toro box for my DreamCast Any other suggestions? I also own the following (all non modded):
TG-16, N64, NES (front loader), OG XBOX, PS1, PS2, Game Cube, Wii, Master System, Super Retro Trio (probably won't use that any more).
NormalFish
Banned
hell of a deal. JP21 scart cables are less standard, so make sure you get those instead of euroscart. Plugging euroscart in to the JP21 adapter can do bad things.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
So I took some time to try this out and I'm still getting 480p with ULL. :\
NormalFish
Banned
so I've got everything I need all laid out in an amazon wishlist for my audio set up.
90$ for the lot including the mixer and cables. I'm stoked.
90$ for the lot including the mixer and cables. I'm stoked.
I haven't given this a try yet, maybe tonight. Hoping my results don't mirror yours. :|
Shin Johnpv
Member
If I get free time I'll try to do that this weekend.
You could always stay with JP21. The main cable supplies can make both, just stay with one. Whether you go all scart or all JP21.
OG Xbox, PS2, Gamecube, and Wii I would personally run component to the Framemeister. TG-16, db-electronics makes an adapter board now that plugs into the ext port on the system to get RGB, and Svideo out of it. http://db-electronics.ca/
For N64 and Nes you'll need to get them modded to RGB, if you're going to a modern tv it's probably better to go with the UltraHDMI mod for the N64 instead of RGB modding it and going framemeister.
Master System you can just get RGB cables for it, if it has jail bars, there is an RGB amp you can get for it to get rid of them.
PS1 has RGB cables for it and I believe they need to be sync on luma. Though some PS1 games change resolution from gameplay to menus, which causes an issue on the framemeister, those games are probably better to play on a PS3. (not saying all PS1 games just the ones with the resolution change).
Also check out implant games youtube channel and his How to XRGB mini series, I personally like his profiles better than firebrandx's but that's me.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4ngkmg51Bea36_jKwc8cjf7fCVunV6MR
And don't forget My Life in Gaming's RGB Masterclass series on youtube.
They have different level videos, from general RGB, to specific consoles and beyond.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpvtp7mH0Cdq8FQUxcjDq0Q
I had no idea about that TG-16 adapter, amazing!
Also good suggestion on sticking with JP-21, I thought they were way more scarce but the more I look it doesn't seem that difficult to find.
I just got done creating some new profiles based off of the Implant Games videos, I agree they are close but the Implant games settings do look a little more accurate to me as well. What I was super impressed by was his settings for NES composite. While it's no RGB, it does look much more impressive than I imagined it would.
NormalFish
Banned
since JP21 is basically just a differently wired euroscart, the scarcity isn't really a big deal, unless you want OEM cables for god-knows-what-reason. You can get everything from the same dealers that us euroscart users tend towards, though you might have to ask them for it explicitely.
I'd switch to Scart imo. Even though makers of new cables can make both, it's just much more convenient not to have to ask every time you need a cable. Also all the stuff that isn't custom made, like switches, audio adapters, Component boxes, splitters, etc. are Scart only.
You only have one JP cable, and the JP-din that comes with every framemeister. It's not too late to switch.
You only have one JP cable, and the JP-din that comes with every framemeister. It's not too late to switch.
True, didn't think about switches.
IrishNinja
Member
hello welcome to my bathroom
think ive found where my PVM's going, yeah
And, that's it. First PVM bought!
The guy I got in touch with seemed super reliable, he's a former video editor/PVM user, and he also restores them nowadays. The monitor itself is a Sony PVM 1440 QM, so quite an entry level model, but hey, as Mega said (thanks again for the MASSIVE help, dude), you have to start somewhere. 80 euros, shipped with express courier and insurance.
I'll be sure to update this very first act in my PVM quest, as soon as I get my hands on it. I'm super excited!
The guy I got in touch with seemed super reliable, he's a former video editor/PVM user, and he also restores them nowadays. The monitor itself is a Sony PVM 1440 QM, so quite an entry level model, but hey, as Mega said (thanks again for the MASSIVE help, dude), you have to start somewhere. 80 euros, shipped with express courier and insurance.
I'll be sure to update this very first act in my PVM quest, as soon as I get my hands on it. I'm super excited!
I would go SCART just for switches.
Shin Johnpv
Member
Yeah I can't exactly put my finger on it but the Implant games profiles just look better on my set then the FBX ones. Why I can't wait for him to do a TG16 profile.
I know retrogamingcables.uk just has a drop down option on if you want JP21 or SCART. I think retro_gaming_accessories on ebay will also do JP21 on request. Though yeah as others have said the other stuff like switchers are all scart. So there's that.
You could be like some of us and not have switcher and just a bundle of connectors with name tags on them lol.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
Is this TV direct or through your framemeister?
Direct, component Psychlone/monster cable for PS2. Direct HDMI for for PS3.
IrishNinja
Member
yesss! retro_console_accessories put up a ton of stuff, and i got the SCART to YUV breakway for audio plugs! monoprice is taking a minute on my component cable, so here's to next week, i guess. heh. still, she must've just put them up today (i wanna say) and there were 90+ sold with 3 left, damn that's fast!
sixteen-bit
Member
hello welcome to my bathroom
look out for moisture
nogoodnamesleft
Banned
finally got my shipment from retro gaming cables uk. my god royal mail is slow as shit.
I've often thought of making cables when I'm a stay at home mum someday lol.
IrishNinja
Member
if you've got access to materials & the know-how, it sounds like a solid side-hustle! was just telling gunsmith, she's so kind for not jacking up prices after seeing those SNES ones go for $100+...can't say i'd do the same, if suckers were that eager to feed the bubble & pay these student loans, haha
NormalFish
Banned
I need to learn to make cables. Honestly it's right up my alley.
I think I'd hook up gaf and other friends first at fair prices and list the rest on eBay. Need to have a good rep to get bid up that high I think though...
theSlacker
Member
I honestly thought that that was where things were going after those auction results. Thank goodness it didn't. She is defiantly the best ongoing resource for our hobby.
Wait, what?
Peagles, our savior.
unfortunately it does not seem to apply to games. Very stupid oversight by Sony. When you're in a PS2 game the only options are Normal and Full. Movies look nice, too bad it can't apply to games.
Yo, I still got all these backlit GBAs to make and sell at cost too among other things I will get onto once I graduate.
Did some 480p testing with RE4. 480p on PS2 is a different story. It looks pretty good. I think I noticed a bit more aliasing on PS2 compared to PS3. It could be a result of the noise over component that's sort of a known issue on PS2. Hard to really say that the PS3 had significantly better quality though, unlike with SH2.
My takeaway from this is that the PS3 can look better than PS2 hardware. Just set it to 480p, bypass PS3's scaling, and turn smoothing off. I'm so glad I decided to look for another launch model PS3. I've completely changed the thermal compound above both chips' heat spreaders and beneath the RSX's. It should last me quite a bit more than my last 2 failed units. I'm gonna need to buy a tool to pry the Cell CPU's heat spreader latter.
My takeaway from this is that the PS3 can look better than PS2 hardware. Just set it to 480p, bypass PS3's scaling, and turn smoothing off. I'm so glad I decided to look for another launch model PS3. I've completely changed the thermal compound above both chips' heat spreaders and beneath the RSX's. It should last me quite a bit more than my last 2 failed units. I'm gonna need to buy a tool to pry the Cell CPU's heat spreader latter.
Your PS3 is BC?
Yes, see my edit above. Complete hardware BC. I'm making sure this unit lasts.
That...is awesome. I wish I had that so I can record all those PS2 games in 480p instead of most in 480i.
The deinterlacing on PS3 is very nice too. Makes SH2 look closer to the Xbox version as far as PQ. It's just the scaling process that's weak
Tarin02543
Member
Alright, this thread is just too awesome and I have to join the party now.
I've recently purchased the Sega Megadrive Collection on Steam and it is just amazing how 60hz Megadrive games play and look. It's like something from an alternative time dimension, where things look better, taste better and are just better overal.
My PAL Megadrive sits on top of my PC tower, connected to a Sony PvM oled monitor. It's connected through composite, which is the only analogue input.
If I get it modded to do NTSC output, I can only do it with RGB output as composite will revert to a black and white output (the chip that converts native RGB signal to composite can only sync the correct color at 50hz, unless a quartz frequency modulator chip is installed, in that case composite 60hz is possible).
I've recently purchased the Sega Megadrive Collection on Steam and it is just amazing how 60hz Megadrive games play and look. It's like something from an alternative time dimension, where things look better, taste better and are just better overal.
My PAL Megadrive sits on top of my PC tower, connected to a Sony PvM oled monitor. It's connected through composite, which is the only analogue input.
If I get it modded to do NTSC output, I can only do it with RGB output as composite will revert to a black and white output (the chip that converts native RGB signal to composite can only sync the correct color at 50hz, unless a quartz frequency modulator chip is installed, in that case composite 60hz is possible).
nogoodnamesleft
Banned
Yeah, PAL50 was a terrible time to be alive as a gamer 
Oh! I thought someone mentioned that you were out of stock.
Do you sell to North Americans? I'd love one.
Yup. I've sent them all over the world. I've been sitting on these for way too long. Hoping to submit a full draft of my thesis after this weekend so I should be able to get back into it in the next couple of months. I'll add you to the list if you want?
Very surprised by this, though I don't know much about PAL and NTSC encoding chips admittedly. Is it not a case of a too smart TV, that interprets a 60Hz signal as NTSC, even though it's really PAL60?
I wouldn't spend too much time trying to make Composite to work, especially if that involves some heavy mod. Do you have Component input on your TV?
Tarin02543
Member
Yes, I have EURO Scart and Composite inputs on my Panasonic LCD.
If I get my PAL consoles (MD + SNES) modded for 60hz output, I plan to use it with a Framemeister as I really want scanlines.
So let's say I'm saving up for all of that, the modding I will definitely outsource as I do not want to damage anything myself.
Use RGB Scart on your TV. Even though its scaler is most likely sub par, it will still be better than Composhit. Also, no need for an oscillator mod with RGB, no colour encoding problem either.
Just do the simple single switch mod on your Megadrive and you'll be good. It's a very simple mod too, my biggest hurdle was drilling the switch hole in the plastic shell. But that was because I wanted a square hole for my square switch.
Just do the simple single switch mod on your Megadrive and you'll be good. It's a very simple mod too, my biggest hurdle was drilling the switch hole in the plastic shell. But that was because I wanted a square hole for my square switch.
Won't suffice. PAL and NTSC color and burst modulation are different.
Given the right frequency/carrier, you still need the right color modulator.
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