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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
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RGB Phosphor Glow Simulation (work in progress)
normal
overbright
The scattering of the phosphors' light is computed in full 3d!
(no 2d processing done)
That's so cool. Hopefully, work like this eventually comes together in CRT simulations.
Yes, 240p. Mainly a Mega Drive, Saturn, and a Neo Geo.
I bought this CRT back in the PS2 era, and with that great component hook ups for everything from back then. Have always wanted to try it with better than S-video for the older ones, though.
I've thought of trying to this out as a crazy experiment. It might at least tell what kind of image quality to expect at the end.
Downsample that image.
Item_Screen
Member
HD Retrovision cables are up for order now. Just got mine.
They're like 40-50 bucks...can't wait to get them for my Genesis, SNES and N64. I wish they made one for Saturn.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
I thought you already had an RGB setup?
They're just an RGB->Component transcoder in a cable, which kind of makes it less useful than a separate box. I mean still it's neat and all that it's simple but if you wanted a multi system setup it'd be worse than just going RGB.
I do, I just want to check these out for various reasons.
NormalFish
Banned
.Marqs said:
My old original Nes is in composite, but i play all my games on the RGB-modded Famicom. Only exception is Castlevania 3 which wont work on the Famicom for some reason
I think, I will skip getting an rgb NES entirely and simply get a retroUSB AVS (FPGA NES hardware clone, not emulation). It's gonna be under £200 ($185), looks fantastic and has near flawless hardware based compatibility for all games and accessories including the FDS.
http://youtu.be/NaEf6D_DLIA
http://youtu.be/NaEf6D_DLIA
I wonder when this is coming out, I wouldn't mind one as well.I think, I will skip getting an rgb NES entirely and simply get a retroUSB AVS (FPGA NES hardware clone, not emulation). It's gonna be under £200 ($185), looks fantastic and has near flawless hardware based compatibility for all games and accessories including the FDS.
http://youtu.be/NaEf6D_DLIA
Beer Monkey
Member
Thing about that system is there's going to be so many better options on the market in the next few years that it will obsolesce fast. That plus it doesn't do RGB.
What other systems? And it being HDMI is the selling point, it's not a replacement for an RGB analog system.
The selling point for me is the fact that it's a 100% hardware clone with full compatibility that will work on my HDTV, plug and play, with no lag whatsoever and for a fraction of the price of an RGB NES setup.
NormalFish
Banned
I think he's speaking generally. As FPGA clone consoles become more practical for the layman both in terms of cost and ease of programming, clone consoles like that one will become far more common.
RGB is also a perk, particularly for the NES, for those who are running on a CRT or other analogue configuration and are not inclined to switch.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
$185USD is pretty close to what I spent on my RGB AV Famicom setup with self installation and I think I still prefer that to a clone. For normals, HDMI is certainly more convenient.
Speaking of FPGAs, has anyone invested in a MIST FPGA computer? I was thinking about ordering one (when my move is done and the possible Canada Post strike is done lol) for tinkering with old computers in a less crazy way than buying up actual old computers. Anything I should know? Is compatibility good?
Speaking of FPGAs, has anyone invested in a MIST FPGA computer? I was thinking about ordering one (when my move is done and the possible Canada Post strike is done lol) for tinkering with old computers in a less crazy way than buying up actual old computers. Anything I should know? Is compatibility good?
It's definitely on the difficult end as far as mods go. Have a look at the guides to get a bit of an idea: http://etim.net.au/nesrgb/
Seems like desoldering the ppu is the hardest part. I may actually have to give it a go.
Yeh. I was lucky I bought an NTSC mobo off bapho and he socketed it for me before sending, bless him.
That looks neat and well designed. I like how the cart lid opens up way at the back for Famicom cart easy access. And $300 cheaper than the NT.I think, I will skip getting an rgb NES entirely and simply get a retroUSB AVS (FPGA NES hardware clone, not emulation). It's gonna be under £200 ($185), looks fantastic and has near flawless hardware based compatibility for all games and accessories including the FDS.
http://youtu.be/NaEf6D_DLIA
You plan to get one?
Depends... will it have scan lines?
It has scan lines!
I got the info from here:
Below youll see a brief list of the AVS features and a video demonstration.
SPECS:
Video: 720p Wide Screen HDMI output, 60Hz (NTSC) and 50Hz (PAL)
Audio: 44.1kHz HDMI output with expansion audio from carts.
Display: Variable pixel scaling including integer options (1:1, 4:3, 5:3) with optional darkness scanlines.
Carts: Front loading NES, Top loading Famicom
Ports: Built in NES Four Score Pro, Famicom Expansion Port
Ports: HDMI Type A for video and audio, USB Mini B for power and data.
Cheats: 5 cheat code slots with built in code database supporting Game Genie, Pro Action Replay, Pro Action Rocky, and raw formats
Online: NA Scoreboard online score system through USB
Updates: Upgrade FPGA configuration and menu system through USB
Cheesemeister
Member
Hi-Def NES board bought, now to find someone in Japan to install it for me...
Very nice feature set, but I don't really understand the integer scaling ratios. I like simple numbers like 2x or 4x. What the heck is 5:3? Is it scaling to weird numbers because it only goes up to 720p?
I'll stick with 4:3.
...Time to get an Everdrive for my NES!
Christ, I may give up on the whole NES rgb idea. Price is just ridiculous, even if I did it myself (as I live in the UK and would have to import an NTSC model, plus rgb kit) and then I could fuck it up. And premodded ones go for near £300.
That's a massive jump up when so far I've spent around the £60 mark on each of my retro consoles (exception being my rgb modded N64 which was £90, but that came with 19 games and an expansion Pak!). I mean hell, a region free model 1 Mega Drive with a pad, UK PSU, game and scart is only £50.
That's a massive jump up when so far I've spent around the £60 mark on each of my retro consoles (exception being my rgb modded N64 which was £90, but that came with 19 games and an expansion Pak!). I mean hell, a region free model 1 Mega Drive with a pad, UK PSU, game and scart is only £50.
Beer Monkey
Member
There will be FPGA systems in (relatively) short order that are compatible with several different consoles, that's one of the strengths of FPGA. And that output 1080p and 4K to avoid additional scaling and lag. 1080p allows windowboxed 960p for 4:1 integer scaling, 4K allows 9:1 full height.
Thx guys! It's a glimps into the future (
hopefully I can finish it
A screen full of these dots would already shutter existing CRT sim glow.
(but needs more work; black mask, glass, multiple scattering, reflection, ...)
PumpkinSpice
Banned
5:3 is a pixel scale of the NES aspect ratio that has clean integer scaling in both dimensions. It's what the Wii U Virtual Console uses and the cool dudes at My Life in Gaming recommend.
It should go without saying that it looks like squished wrong shit but hey there's nothing to stop you!
I hope the 4:3 mode on this does better than the Hi-Def NES. The right way to do this kind of scaling would be to do smooth filtered scaling horizontally from NES native to 1280 (960 at 720p) pixels and then integer scaling vertically to 960 (720 at 720p). This is what the Mega Man Legacy Collection is doing on PS4/XB1 and it looks pretty good. Probably the best you're going to get short of going out of the console analog and sampling the lines.
This is what the Retron 5 should have been.
Not sure if the test results are already needed, but the comparison between scart and hd retrovision on an hd upscaler is night and day.
Retrovision's cables fill the screen much more and feature some kind of anti glow.
It is easy to see on Battletoads for genesis ...
(random image taken from the internet, not actual cable)
The scart one had some weird bright lines exactly over the black squares in the health bars.
On a tube tv it is not THAT diferent from the other best options ... but it does show a more bright image (it does have 2 brightness options)
...but I have other systems. I want an affordable NES that plays my NES games, in HD, with no compatibility issues, that also has the design sensibilities of the NES together with Famicom support and NES accessory support.
You're slightly missing the point here. The console is first and foremost a NES, and designed to be so. That's the selling point. Kevtris's FPGA console will be awesome, but it's a totally different goal.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
Not sure if the test results are already needed, but the comparison between scart and hd retrovision on an hd upscaler is night and day.
Retrovision's cables fill the screen much more and feature some kind of anti glow.
It is easy to see on Battletoads for genesis ...
(random image taken from the internet, not actual cable)
The scart one had some weird bright lines exactly over the black squares in the health bars.
On a tube tv it is not THAT diferent from the other best options ... but it does show a more bright image (it does have 2 brightness options)
I'm not really following you here. Are you talking about jailbars? I don't see how an RGB to YPbPr transcoder would fix that.
More like your upscaler is calibrated differently for RGB and Component.
I have been eyeing the MiST for months as I'm never going to buy a dedicated Amiga, MSX, Commodore, ZX Spectrum, Atari ST, etc. A Youtuber posted a few videos of the hardware, including showing off some C64 games and compatibility doesn't seem to be anywhere near perfect. If it's bad overall and doesn't improve, I may just settle on emulation for these systems.
Beautiful.
I see, thanks for elaborating that. Yeah, that guy has a hard on for "sharp pixels" even at the cost of other picture reproduction details. Heh
Not sure if the test results are already needed, but the comparison between scart and hd retrovision on an hd upscaler is night and day.
Retrovision's cables fill the screen much more and feature some kind of anti glow.
It is easy to see on Battletoads for genesis ...
(random image taken from the internet, not actual cable)
The scart one had some weird bright lines exactly over the black squares in the health bars.
On a tube tv it is not THAT diferent from the other best options ... but it does show a more bright image (it does have 2 brightness options)
Whatchu talkin' 'bout, Willis? Night and day? How do you mean? What is better than what? You being vague...
Beer Monkey
Member
Everybody has different priorities, that's cool.
Mine are an analog out on all devices and 1080p on all digital out because I want to avoid double scaling, which compounds artifacts.
Retrovision's cables are passive transcoder devices, they do not alter display timings. Filling the screen more implies scaling, and they don't do that. Any differences in display size would be caused by the device it is plugged into treating the inputs differently aka settings and calibration.
I'm sure the compatibility will improve. It's the cool thing about it, you can just make an improved core for a specific machine and it will benefit most FPGA computers.
Compatibility didn't prevent me from getting a MiST, but look and feel certainly did. I'm waiting for the one machine that can output RGB and load from original media, and also look good. Even though it works differently, it still feel like like an impersonal emulator box where you just dump your fullset and be done with it. Hardware simulation isn't only at the chip level.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Well. Fuck me.
Right after I swore I'd never waste my time trying to make a TV work as an arcade monitor, I've been blessed with a free, curvy 25" Thomson set and a crazy friend has gone on to show how batshit he is by offering me CASH MONEY to build him an arcade cabinet, despite the fact that I'm still working on my LaCie-based one. I can only guess he liked what he saw. Naturally, I'm a germane person so I'll only bill him the materials (mostly because I'm not sure I won't fuck this up).
Anyway, I've been looking for some tutorials in order to know how to get this thing going, only to slam my face against the internet. There seems to be a gazillion of different methods, each one of them with no clear advantages over the others, and most docs are based around positively ancient systems that bear very little resemblance to the kind of hardware I'll be using.
Does anybody know a good place to start? I've been looking at Arcade Controls and some other sites, but it's still a daunting enterprise.
This is basically what I'm trying to get:
And this is basically what I have:
So with that in mind... is there a fool-proof tutorial/method to get what I want or am I asking too much? I'm so damn confused with all this modeline/15KHz talk.
Right after I swore I'd never waste my time trying to make a TV work as an arcade monitor, I've been blessed with a free, curvy 25" Thomson set and a crazy friend has gone on to show how batshit he is by offering me CASH MONEY to build him an arcade cabinet, despite the fact that I'm still working on my LaCie-based one. I can only guess he liked what he saw. Naturally, I'm a germane person so I'll only bill him the materials (mostly because I'm not sure I won't fuck this up).
Anyway, I've been looking for some tutorials in order to know how to get this thing going, only to slam my face against the internet. There seems to be a gazillion of different methods, each one of them with no clear advantages over the others, and most docs are based around positively ancient systems that bear very little resemblance to the kind of hardware I'll be using.
Does anybody know a good place to start? I've been looking at Arcade Controls and some other sites, but it's still a daunting enterprise.
This is basically what I'm trying to get:
- Pixel perfect (or as close to that as possible) arcade and old school (up to PS2 era) console emulation.
- Horizontal and vertical support
- Not having to manually configure every single game with its own video settings.
And this is basically what I have:
- A 4:3 25" Thomson CRT TV with dual SCART connectors
- A small microcomputer with Intel graphics (I'll probably get this one)
- A zero delay encoder + a bunch of IL buttons and sticks
- Windows 10
So with that in mind... is there a fool-proof tutorial/method to get what I want or am I asking too much? I'm so damn confused with all this modeline/15KHz talk.
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