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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!

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K

Khaz

Member
You'll get nowhere with this all-in-one PC, you won't be able to make it display on the TV. Well, you may, but it will be through several adapters and the quality will be terrible. Get an old PC tower and keep its frame, buy PC parts. Read about ArcadeVGA, soft15kHz and other 240p VGA solutions to know what's best for your needs. Forget about Windows 10 too, it's just not made for such a low resolution. There are Linux distributions tailored to what you want to do.

You'll get pixel perfect. As long as you are outputting 240 lines, your TV will display them fantastically. Just don't do something stupid like 1080p rendering downsampled to 240p. If by vertical support you mean pivoting the screen, you should be fine. Just tell MAME not to rotate them. If you want to play vertical games on your horizontal screen, then sorry but they will look ugly, if they look anything at all.
 
F

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Oh, I can absolutely salvage some ancient Windows XP machine, I just wanted something new to avoid the hardware crapping out on me. God knows about the vid card, though.
 
K

Khaz

Member
Funky Papa said:
Oh, I can absolutely salvage some ancient Windows XP machine, I just wanted something new to avoid the hardware crapping out on me. God knows about the vid card, though.
Click to expand...

Oh you can get new stuff, but the video card is central to your setup and needs to be chosen with care. It's ability to produce 240 lines of graphics is essential.
 
P

piggychan

Member
My little BVM for my pc engine console
_DSC0001.jpg

8217E067-152C-4EE1-A7AD-9A1AE2C4E4C1.jpg


coryoon.jpg

altered.jpg

soldier.jpg
 
F

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
NormalFish said:
I think a 7800 series radeon card should work for your purposes, but this isn't my area of expertise.
Click to expand...

Khaz said:
Oh you can get new stuff, but the video card is central to your setup and needs to be chosen with care. It's ability to produce 240 lines of graphics is essential.
Click to expand...

Having looked at the alternatives, I think I'm going to go small rather than big and try my luck with GroovyArcade + some old computer. I'm hardly a Linux fan, but being free is a huge plus and the liveUSB installation seems easy peasy even for me, not to mention that it seems to work just fine with SCART out of the box, no driver fudgery needed (as long as the video card is right).

The TV set features a second SCART connector and composite, so worst case scenario old consoles should work without any major issues while the cab itself is 100% devoted to arcade emulation. Time to see what kind of trash I can scavenge around.

piggychan said:
My little BVM for my pc engine console
_DSC0001.jpg

8217E067-152C-4EE1-A7AD-9A1AE2C4E4C1.jpg


coryoon.jpg

altered.jpg

soldier.jpg
Click to expand...

Too cute.
 
B

Beer Monkey

Member
Here's my first ever true 1:1 pixel accurate image capture. Capturing at 720x240, then cropping down to 644x224, then resampling down to 256x224 in Paint.NET using 'Best Quality' actually samples out the original sampling errors. Verified it first with a 240p test suite checkerboard pattern, so I know what it's doing.

Here it is blown up 300x.

Mh3PCmy.png


Would be mistaken for an emulator shot. And yes, the aspect ratio is off because pixels aren't square on NES and SNES games.
 
T

Timu

Member
Beer Monkey said:
Here's my first ever true 1:1 pixel accurate image capture. Capturing at 720x240, then cropping down to 644x224, then resampling down to 256x224 in Paint.NET using 'Best Quality' actually samples out the original sampling errors. Verified it first with a 240p test suite checkerboard pattern, so I know what it's doing.

Here it is blown up 300x.

Mh3PCmy.png


Would be mistaken for an emulator shot. And yes, the aspect ratio is off because pixels aren't square on NES and SNES games.
Click to expand...
That's insane dude!!!=O
 
B

Beer Monkey

Member
On an unrelated note this week, I discovered that, after years of thinking my 2008 Pioneer Kuro PDP-5020FD could not display 240p correctly, I found out that was totally not the case.

It displays 240p perfectly if you change the picture setting for the given input to 'GAME'. And I mean perfectly. Of course, you get about 3 frames of lag because plasma, but no squiggling, shimmering edges, no switching between bob and weave et al, it just works.

I'm a little embarassed. But hey, at least I can avoid artifacts when playing on the set, which I do for some classic multiplayer with friends.
 
S

SegaShack

Member
Rich! said:
I think, I will skip getting an rgb NES entirely and simply get a retroUSB AVS (FPGA NES hardware clone, not emulation). It's gonna be under £200 ($185), looks fantastic and has near flawless hardware based compatibility for all games and accessories including the FDS.

original.jpg


AVSsample.jpg


http://youtu.be/NaEf6D_DLIA
Click to expand...
Bunnyboy on NintendoAge has been working on this and the Powerpak 2 for 3 years + now. No idea when they'll actually happen.
 
B

Brhoom

Banned
I so wanna build the ultimate gaming room with all of the knowledge I know, but I must finish college first and get a job before that dream comes true.

Also a place for that dream room
 
M

Morfeo

The Chuck Norris of Peace
catabarez said:
Grief joined RGBGaf? Welcome!

Was anyone able to get in on the second batch of gscart switches?
Click to expand...

I watched that thread day and night lol, still missed out. Then he reopened it after a few days and i was finally able to preorder one. So looking forward to it!
 
K

Khaz

Member
Funky Papa said:
The TV set features a second SCART connector and composite, so worst case scenario old consoles should work without any major issues while the cab itself is 100% devoted to arcade emulation. Time to see what kind of trash I can scavenge around.
Click to expand...

Be careful with that second Scart connector. Many TVs only accept RGB on their first Scart connector, and the second will only take Composite.
 
F

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Khaz said:
Be careful with that second Scart connector. Many TVs only accept RGB on their first Scart connector, and the second will only take Composite.
Click to expand...

Deathly aware of that after gaming on an old SCART set for YEARS back during the Xbox/PS2 days until one day I moved the TV and reconnected all the cables, only to discover that I wasn't using the RGB one :(
 
P

PumpkinSpice

Banned
Jake from State Farm said:
Does the framemeister play nice with 4k TV's? Just trying to see my options for future use.
Click to expand...

It doesn't output at 4K but you could do 720p output which is a 3x scale of 240p and cleanly scales 3x more to 4K. I'm not sure you'd get 100% sharp pixels that way (if that's a thing you really want) but it'd look pretty good.
 
N

NormalFish

Banned
or 1080p since it's a 2x scale lol

Apparently a lot of current 4k TVs have really iffy scaling though, for whatever reason. Seems results are inconsistent.
 
R

Rich!

Member
such an easy mod, with such significant results

sZFNX3rl.jpg


ZiujA7Ol.jpg


XS412qFl.jpg


I wanted a small slide switch, but maplin don't seem to have any that are three way (PAL/USA/JP), so I went for a toggle switch. It's at the back, out of the way at least. It works, which is the important part:
 
G

Grief.exe

Member
Jake from State Farm said:
Does the framemeister play nice with 4k TV's? Just trying to see my options for future use.
Click to expand...

4K TVs should have good scaling since the majority of content is still locked to 1080p in the short term.

Upscaling and image processing add in a significant amount of input lag.


televator said:
Weren't you in that HDR thread? I wish more folks would have made their way over here, but anyone we can get to have good discussion is always welcome.
Click to expand...

I drop in and out of classic gaming threads whenever I get into that mood to play some retro games so I'm always around.
 
R

Rich!

Member
oh for fucks sake

image on my mega drive started going haywire. opened it up, checked the soldering for the mod. no issues. swapped the points over, tried again. image still going crazy (rolling, shaking, etc). Opened up the console, soldered the points back. All good. what the fuck

...wobbled the RGB scart cable and it suddenly stabilized. Tried another cable and it worked fine. fucking cables. the one I have is obviously buggered (looks like someones yanked it out of a TV at the end, maybe?), but at least the console is fine.
 
G

geniusbits

Member
Funky Papa said:
Well. Fuck me.Does anybody know a good place to start? I've been looking at Arcade Controls and some other sites, but it's still a daunting enterprise.
Click to expand...
I can't offer any help but I have an arcade cabinet project I would like to do and also don't know where to start. What are you doing structurally, to support the TV and such? Are you taking the tube out of it's casing to drop it in the cabinet bezel like an authentic setup or doing it differently? I want to make a sit down, "arcadized" console setup with a big 32" Trinitron, some car bench seats and whatever great shit I can put together, but don't know where to start.
 
K

Khaz

Member
Rich! said:
oh for fucks sake

image on my mega drive started going haywire. opened it up, checked the soldering for the mod. no issues. swapped the points over, tried again. image still going crazy (rolling, shaking, etc). Opened up the console, soldered the points back. All good. what the fuck

...wobbled the RGB scart cable and it suddenly stabilized. Tried another cable and it worked fine. fucking cables. the one I have is obviously buggered (looks like someones yanked it out of a TV at the end, maybe?), but at least the console is fine.
Click to expand...

It might be the DIN socket, it's not uncommon to have the solder joints break because of old age and manipulation. You can reflow them, but sometimes the track itself breaks so you have to use a small wire to replace it.
 
R

Rich!

Member
Khaz said:
It might be the DIN socket, it's not uncommon to have the solder joints break because of old age and manipulation. You can reflow them, but sometimes the track itself breaks so you have to use a small wire to replace it.
Click to expand...

Nah, it's the scart end. It literally fell apart. This is why I only order my cables from retrogamingcables.co.uk, but at least this one was free!

I will double check the din port though next time I open it up, as that is indeed a good idea
 
F

Funky Papa

FUNK-Y-PPA-4
geniusbits said:
I can't offer any help but I have an arcade cabinet project I would like to do and also don't know where to start. What are you doing structurally, to support the TV and such? Are you taking the tube out of it's casing to drop it in the cabinet bezel like an authentic setup or doing it differently? I want to make a sit down, "arcadized" console setup with a big 32" Trinitron, some car bench seats and whatever great shit I can put together, but don't know where to start.
Click to expand...
My first cabinet will use a complete monitor with its original case as taking it out is going to be a bitch and half. I'll decase the TV for the second cab and mount it like this one:

skWc9mE.jpg

v9lNMl0.jpg

x3tn8TP.jpg
Click to expand...

That project is legit as hell, by the way. You can check it out here.
 
B

blast processed

Member
Funky Papa said:
My first cabinet will use a complete monitor with its original case as taking it out is going to be a bitch and half. I'll decase the TV for the second cab and mount it like this one:



That project is legit as hell, by the way. You can check it out here.
Click to expand...

I originally wanted to do this, but opted to go with a flat screen instead. I just didn't have the knowledge. Good luck!
 
B

Barrel Cannon

Member
Yea I've always loved those marquee things but I love flat decal marquees a lot as well. I'm still unsure what I'll end up doing.

Stellar job on the above cabinet for whoever did it.
 
M

Mega

Banned
Funky Papa said:
The combination of godlike Bang & Olufsen CRT goodness with that dynamic LCD marquee is giving me a bad case of the nnnghs.
Click to expand...

That looks amazing. If I had the space, I'd get one in an instant... that and a virtual pinball machine!

For now I make due with a Groovy MAME PC outputting 240p to my CRTs and a couple of arcade sticks.
 
M

Mega

Banned
I'm looking to converts RGBs to S-video. Would this be a good option? http://www.ambery.com/rgrgtotvcosc.html

RGBS-CV-InOut.gif


Any other converters that do the trick? Added lag should be minimal, right?

For anyone wondering why I would do this... I have most of my consoles feeding RGB into my matrix switch and outputting RGB to various monitors. I wanna hook up my wonderful little S-video monitor to the fourth video output so that it can be utilized by more than just the N64. The converter would go between the switch's BNC output connectors and the monitor's S-video connector. Some games look better on this little monitor than on the sharp and scanline-heavy Sony and JVC pro CRTs, so there are practical reasons for doing this too.

Maybe I also wanna play occasionally with a clean Composite signal for nostalgia. It would be neat to see how superior the Composite signal generated by one of these modern converters will be than the Genesis' hideous native Composite output.
 
B

blast processed

Member
Is this the adapter I would need to get started with the xrgb mini? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Micomsoft-XRGB-Mini-Passive-adapter-for-Euro-SCART-to-XRGB-Mini-8-pin-/201294067744

And then this to connect the Sega Saturn? https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/sega-saturn-rgb-av-scart-ntsc-cable-tv-lead-cord-for-sale

Also, I have a Genesis 2 Scart that went into a scart to Y-U-V adapter into a crt. The cable says "Do not use on XRGB scalers without a converter" Should I just get a new cable and skip the converter? Sorry for the stupid questions lol all of these cables can be confusing :(

For now I just want to have my Model 2 Genesis 32x/Sega CD and Saturn connected.

Edit: retrogaming cables doesn't seem to have anything in-stock. is there another seller or is she the best of the bunch?
 
M

Morfeo

The Chuck Norris of Peace
Jake from State Farm said:
Is this the adapter I would need to get started with the xrgb mini? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Micomsoft-XRGB-Mini-Passive-adapter-for-Euro-SCART-to-XRGB-Mini-8-pin-/201294067744

And then this to connect the Sega Saturn? https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/sega-saturn-rgb-av-scart-ntsc-cable-tv-lead-cord-for-sale

Also, I have a Genesis 2 Scart that went into a scart to Y-U-V adapter into a crt. The cable says "Do not use on XRGB scalers without a converter" Should I just get a new cable and skip the converter? Sorry for the stupid questions lol all of these cables can be confusing :(
Click to expand...

That adapter would work, and it would also work with the Genesis 2 Scart that you have. I find it generally more convenient to go with Euro-scart cables since my tv also have a euro-scart port, but if your tv doesnt have that, then yeah, just buying a jp21 rgb cable might work just as well. There is also always the question of sync strippers included in the adapter, which i guess will be harder to implement if you dont have an adapter at all. So yeah, my suggestion is to get an adapter and stick with euro-scart.
 
B

blast processed

Member
Morfeo said:
That adapter would work, and it would also work with the Genesis 2 Scart that you have. I find it generally more convenient to go with Euro-scart cables since my tv also have a euro-scart port, but if your tv doesnt have that, then yeah, just buying a jp21 rgb cable might work just as well. There is also always the question of sync strippers included in the adapter, which i guess will be harder to implement if you dont have an adapter at all. So yeah, my suggestion is to get an adapter and stick with euro-scart.
Click to expand...

So if I'm reading this correctly, the adapter they are speaking of is the first one I listed? And I only have 3 HDMI ports and one component port on my tv.

Edit: This is what I'm looking to order. Figure I would order the Xbox cable since I'm already doing this. I read csync is the way to go, so no jail bars.

V3LKgJu.png
 
M

Morfeo

The Chuck Norris of Peace
Jake from State Farm said:
So if I'm reading this correctly, the adapter they are speaking of is the first one I listed? And I only have 3 HDMI ports and one component port on my tv.

Edit: This is what I'm looking to order. Figure I would order the Xbox cable since I'm already doing this. I read csync is the way to go, so no jail bars.

V3LKgJu.png
Click to expand...

Yeah that is correct.

This would work, however, Im not sure i would do rgb on the xbox when you can get component for it. I doubt rgb supports 480p on the xbox, but im sure somebody else could chime in on that. The Framemeister once again needs an adapter to take component cables, but that one is usually sold with the framemeister, at least if you buy from Solaris like I did.
 
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