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[Kawika]

Cable Gaf.

I bought a used RGB Modded N64. It was from the early line of N64s so I assume its the original RGB mod not the new one that doesn't care which N64 you have. I tried using my SNES Scart cables to hook it to my pvm. It didn't work. I don't want to buy the wrong cable. Does anyone know if the scart cables are different between the two N64 mods?

 

[Mega]

^You likely need the SNES scart cable with sync on luma. The standard one with pure/composite sync won't work.

I was going to post some Youtube videos with my earlier post about amazing Genesis music but the stuff I found sounds way off. Probably because it's emulated as stated before. Very noticeable when you're right in front of the game running on original hardware. I don't have the vocabulary or technical know-how to describe what happens but it's a lot of things, big and small. It could be the pitch of a specific part is completely wrong or a thumping beat underlying the music sounds very different. Or an "instrument" sounds too loud, the next one sounds super metallic/crunchy. Another one sounds tinny and yet another sounds warbly as fuck.

I'm listening to someone's upload of the Doomsday Zone/true final boss music of S&K and it sounds like absolute shit compared to the real thing.

 

[Teknoman]

So i'm reading the optimal sharpness setting for older CRTs is 0?

 

[sixteen-bit]

It should depend on the set. One's 0 could be another's 50

 

[Funky Papa]

^You likely need the SNES scart cable with sync on luma. The standard one with pure/composite sync won't work.

I was going to post some Youtube videos with my earlier post about amazing Genesis music but the stuff I found sounds way off. Probably because it's emulated as stated before. Very noticeable when you're right in front of the game running on original hardware. I don't have the vocabulary or technical know-how to describe what happens but it's a lot of things, big and small. It could be the pitch of a specific part is completely wrong or a thumping beat underlying the music sounds very different. Or an "instrument" sounds too loud, the next one sounds super metallic/crunchy. Another one sounds tinny and yet another sounds warbly as fuck.

I'm listening to someone's upload of the Doomsday Zone/true final boss music of S&K and it sounds like absolute shit compared to the real thing.

I'd like to know how much of that is related to using different audio gear. You'd think that sound emulación of such ancient systems would be perfected by now.

On a different note, I've been on a Capcom binge and I'm shocked by how trite most of their arcade beat them ups were. The copypaste mechanics and visuals were fairly noticeable back then, but they have become downright embarrassing now. To think how much I loved The Punisher...

 

[Teknoman]

It should depend on the set. One's 0 could be another's 50

I'll have to check the model number, mine is a Sony Wega, but I guess the model type also makes a difference.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

What's up with the criticism regarding emulated music? I certainly don't recall any major differences between any modern Megadrive emus and the old cartridges.

Are my ears broken or what?

Considering that there are noticeable differences between specific Genesis revisions, you should be able to spot some differences between actual hardware and emulators. Some emulators even have toggle filters to make them more closely match specific versions of the system, IIRC.

It's more noticeable in specific music tracks. Not too long ago I uploaded some recordings of the Street Fighter 2 beta, played from a real system. If you compare Vega's theme from that version on a real system and an emulator the difference is extremely obvious. The instrument mixing, for lack of a better description, was way off on the couple of emulators I tested it on.

 

[televator]

It should depend on the set. One's 0 could be another's 50

This is true even for new TVs. Both flat panels and CRTs can have optimal sharpness on 0, 50, or even 25 depending on the model.

 

[Khaz]

So i'm reading the optimal sharpness setting for older CRTs is 0?

Yep. adding sharpness may be good for live action films, but it's definitely not for videogames or animation. And even for film I have my doubts. Turn it down to zero.

Some thoughts about it http://www.lockergnome.com/media/2011/08/22/what-is-video-sharpness-on-a-television/

 

[Funky Papa]

This is true even for new TVs. Both flat panels and CRTs can have optimal sharpness on 0, 50, or even 25 depending on the model.

After resetting by mistake my LaCie monitor, I'm glad that modern displays only have like half a dozen important settings to configure. Getting that mofo up to snuff was a bitch and half.

 

[Peagles]

Congrats peagles!

Thanks!

Related, I must have forgotten to take pics of the setup. I swear I did but there's nothing on my phone. I blame it on bride brain lmao...

 

[Madao]

thanks to calibrating old consoles and the FM i found out my LCD TV's optimal sharpness was 50 a while ago.

i find that the RGB test suite helps a lot in this. that's how i calibrated both my CRT and LCD TV.

 

[Peagles]

Oh, also I just bought a TORO... I think.

 

[catabarez]

Oh, also I just bought a TORO... I think.

Tell us how it is!

 

[Peagles]

Tell us how it is!

I will! When it gets here. No idea when that'll be, but I'm excited since I never could get the DC working on the PVM.

 

[Peltz]

What's up with the criticism regarding emulated music? I certainly don't recall any major differences between any modern Megadrive emus and the old cartridges.

Are my ears broken or what?

Yea... they may be.

 

[televator]

What's up with the criticism regarding emulated music? I certainly don't recall any major differences between any modern Megadrive emus and the old cartridges.

Are my ears broken or what?

Some Emus have made very good strides in emulating YM2612. One in particular that is regarded as the most accurate currently... I forget the name. Too bad it's the least user friendly and has zero video filter options (not even scanlines). I would even say that playing on that emu is preferable to a Model 2 & 3. Anything else is not up to snuff.

 

[D.Lo]

Emulators won't distort like the amps in VA0-VA2 consoles either, or be muffled like VA3-5, or sound like crap like many other revisions, because the only DAC/Amp they're using is the 25 years more modern one in your PC.

 

[missile]

Emulators won't distort like the amps in VA0-VA2 consoles either, or be muffled like VA3-5, or sound like crap like many other revisions, because the only DAC/Amp they're using is the 25 years more modern one in your PC.

Are there any specs about these old amps? I'm currently analyzing vacuum
tubes, their linear (dumping) and esp. their non-linear (harmonic distortion)
characteristics to reproduce their effects digitally for another project of
mine. Doing so with the amps would be a similar task.

 

[D.Lo]

Are there any specs about these old amps? I'm currently analyzing vacuum
tubes, their linear (dumping) and esp. their non-linear (harmonic distortion)
characteristics to reproduce their effects digitally for another project of
mine. Doing so with the amps would be a similar task.

No idea, but this is cheapo solid state clipping, it would be a straight square cut of loud sounds I'd imagine.

 

[miserable]

^You likely need the SNES scart cable with sync on luma. The standard one with pure/composite sync won't work.

i have an RGB modded NTSC N64, and the official PAL SNES Scart cable works on it and i think that cable doesn't have sync on luma

 

[Teknoman]

It should depend on the set. One's 0 could be another's 50

This is true even for new TVs. Both flat panels and CRTs can have optimal sharpness on 0, 50, or even 25 depending on the model.

Yep. adding sharpness may be good for live action films, but it's definitely not for videogames or animation. And even for film I have my doubts. Turn it down to zero.

Some thoughts about it http://www.lockergnome.com/media/2011/08/22/what-is-video-sharpness-on-a-television/

Turns out its 0 for my set.

 

[Mega]

i have an RGB modded NTSC N64, and the official PAL SNES Scart cable works on it and i think that cable doesn't have sync on luma

Early NTSC N64s (NUS-CPU-03) have everything intact for a c-sync mod. The v04 consoles are more common and can only be modded for sync on luma. There's visually there's no difference so it's not worth trying to hunt down the earlier model. Later console revisions require a pricier, complex mod.

 

[baphomet]

Early NTSC N64s (NUS-CPU-03) have everything intact for a c-sync mod. The v04 consoles are more common and can only be modded for sync on luma. There's visually there's no difference so it's not worth trying to hunt down the earlier model. Later console revisions require a pricier, complex mod.

Actually CPU-03 already have c-sync enabled. CPU-04 can be modded for c-sync, but it requires cutting the composite video signal. Both models can use a sync on luma cable.

 

[Kawika]

^You likely need the SNES scart cable with sync on luma. The standard one with pure/composite sync won't work.

I was going to post some Youtube videos with my earlier post about amazing Genesis music but the stuff I found sounds way off. Probably because it's emulated as stated before. Very noticeable when you're right in front of the game running on original hardware. I don't have the vocabulary or technical know-how to describe what happens but it's a lot of things, big and small. It could be the pitch of a specific part is completely wrong or a thumping beat underlying the music sounds very different. Or an "instrument" sounds too loud, the next one sounds super metallic/crunchy. Another one sounds tinny and yet another sounds warbly as fuck.

I'm listening to someone's upload of the Doomsday Zone/true final boss music of S&K and it sounds like absolute shit compared to the real thing.

Bought a Sync on Luma. I guess from what I read N64 will not csync. kind of a pain in the butt to have to swap cables for snes/n64.

Did anyone back this KS http://www.hdretrovision.com/? I am curious if the component cables will perform better than RGB. I know at least with regard to my PVM Component (wii, ps2 and gamecube) allows you to adjust chroma and other dials but when you use csync rgb you can no longer adjust that. Even if there is some clarity loss, i believe the color palette will make up for that. It sucks, I actually went back to svideo for certain games because the clarity wasn't worth the hit i took to the color.

 

[Mega]

^Fix your RGB settings. It should look as colorful and bright as any other connection.

Actually CPU-03 already have c-sync enabled. CPU-04 can be modded for c-sync, but it requires cutting the composite video signal. Both models can use a sync on luma cable.

Thanks for the clarification, I read that about CPU-03 on RetroRGB but didn't think it made sense because it seemed like everyone modded their N64s for better PQ. That's crazy, that there are N64s with RGB out of the box.

So that's Genesis, SNES, PS1, Saturn, N64, GC, DC, PS2,... yet we all, for the most part, had to suffer with packed-in composite and TVs with MAYBE S-video at best. All those years looking at far less than optimal images than our devices were capable of. God damn.

 

[Funky Papa]

Surely, setting up a professional monitor counts as a hobby itself.

My LaCie is 100% configured and primed for some MAME action, but I'm still dissatisfied with its PQ. While contrast and refresh rates are out of this world, the native resolution (1600x1200) is WAY too high and there are no scanlines to speak of. Phosphors are also TINY, almost LCD sharp.

I think I may end buying a cheap scanline generator in order to get that old school look. Which is highly annoying, considering that I spend more time than I should looking for a high quality CRT computer monitor for my arcade cabinet project.

Edit: The green tint is because of the camera. The monitor itself looks damn fine.

 

[missile]

No idea, but this is cheapo solid state clipping, it would be a straight square cut of loud sounds I'd imagine.

You mean the curve looks like this:

  _
_/

Do modern solid state amps soft-clip by default?

 

[missile]

Bought a Sync on Luma. I guess from what I read N64 will not csync. kind of a pain in the butt to have to swap cables for snes/n64.

Did anyone back this KS http://www.hdretrovision.com/? I am curious if the component cables will perform better than RGB. I know at least with regard to my PVM Component (wii, ps2 and gamecube) allows you to adjust chroma and other dials but when you use csync rgb you can no longer adjust that. Even if there is some clarity loss, i believe the color palette will make up for that. It sucks, I actually went back to svideo for certain games because the clarity wasn't worth the hit i took to the color.

Had a look on it. Do they convert from composite to component within the wire
using a chip?

On a side note; YPbPr can be as good as RGB if you stick to it right to the
end, right to the guns of the tube with no conversion in-between. Some tubes
can process YPbPr straight, i.e. the de-matrixing of YPbPr to RGB is
implicitly done by the picture tube. But don't ask me which TV does. But if
your TV converts YPbPr to RGB prior feeding the guns and if you can feed a
clean RGB signal into the TV by-passing the YPbPr stage, you get a better
picture, technically. Well, YPbPr is usually preferred while being on the
analog side of things to prevent conversion-loss from one analog device to the
next. And of course, once you are on RGB you can't adjust chroma that easily.
It requires conversion again with the downside of degrading the signal quality
further.

 

[PumpkinSpice]

Had a look on it. Do they convert from composite to component within the wire
using a chip?

They convert RGB to component in the cable.

 

[missile]

^ Thx.

 

[Friend of Sonic]

I will! When it gets here. No idea when that'll be, but I'm excited since I never could get the DC working on the PVM.

I love my Toro. 480p through Scart, and displays in 31khz if your PVM supports it. It is perfect and DC games look gorgeous

 

[Teknoman]

Is it strange that I seem to have to adjust the pots in my scart to component converter every so often? Anyone know what causes this, or is it just because of the cheap build?

 

[catabarez]

Actually I had a CPU-04 and I was able to mod csync in without cutting any traces.

 

[Mega]

Surely, setting up a professional monitor counts as a hobby itself.



My LaCie is 100% configured and primed for some MAME action, but I'm still dissatisfied with its PQ. While contrast and refresh rates are out of this world, the native resolution (1600x1200) is WAY too high and there are no scanlines to speak of. Phosphors are also TINY, almost LCD sharp.

I think I may end buying a cheap scanline generator in order to get that old school look. Which is highly annoying, considering that I spend more time than I should looking for a high quality CRT computer monitor for my arcade cabinet project.

Edit: The green tint is because of the camera. The monitor itself looks damn fine.

Bapho and D.Lo warned you about this a month ago.

I'll get some pics up later of 240p GroovyMAME running perfect to make you jelly!

 

[Funky Papa]

I'M A FOOL, OK?

Luckily enough it looks like I'm going to have some spare time ahead, so I may go bananas with Retroarch and tinker with its HLSL magiks.

 

[socksfelloff]

Surely, setting up a professional monitor counts as a hobby itself.



My LaCie is 100% configured and primed for some MAME action, but I'm still dissatisfied with its PQ. While contrast and refresh rates are out of this world, the native resolution (1600x1200) is WAY too high and there are no scanlines to speak of. Phosphors are also TINY, almost LCD sharp.

I think I may end buying a cheap scanline generator in order to get that old school look. Which is highly annoying, considering that I spend more time than I should looking for a high quality CRT computer monitor for my arcade cabinet project.

Edit: The green tint is because of the camera. The monitor itself looks damn fine.

Both of my crt computer( Samsung and nec) monitors produce scan lines at 640x480 res only. They are very tight and look similar to a 800line pvm

 

[missile]

So i'm reading the optimal sharpness setting for older CRTs is 0?

Yep. adding sharpness may be good for live action films, but it's definitely not for videogames or animation. And even for film I have my doubts. Turn it down to zero.

Some thoughts about it http://www.lockergnome.com/media/2011/08/22/what-is-video-sharpness-on-a-television/

The option to sharpen the image produced by an CRTs video circuit has
basically nothing to do with sharpening the image as we know it today. The
sort of sharpening seen in CRTs is a post-emphasis filter to counter the long
roll-off and dumping of the higher frequencies produced by the video amplifier
circuits and their RC couplings. Pi-filters and similar ones are used to
emphasize the higher video frequencies again and to produce a faster roll-off
of the filter curve beyond the highest video frequency of the CRT to
eliminate much higher (left over) frequencies which could turn your amplifier
into an oscillator. However, it was found out that using those filters could
make the picture look more hires and were as such abused for marketing, i.e.
adjusted to produce a little plastic (as it is known) by pushing the higher
video frequencies more than necessary, whereas their original intent was just
to counter the deficiencies of the video amplifiers.

One only needs to adjust the sharpening feature up to the point where the
edges in the image start to get sort of an outline. Anything beyond just
serves the artist.

 

[Peltz]

I'M A FOOL, OK?

Luckily enough it looks like I'm going to have some spare time ahead, so I may go bananas with Retroarch and tinker with its HLSL magiks.

That monitor is cool as hell, but not for retro games.

 

[D.Lo]

You mean the curve looks like this:

  _
_/

Do modern solid state amps soft-clip by default?

Yes the curve will have a single hard clip.

Solid state amps are designed to not clip at all in most cases (unless it's a specifically designed distortion circuit like a pedal), so when they do it's a mistake and usually sounds very bad.

I mean this was true of tubes to start with, until people started to like the natural way they clipped, and now every valve amp since the 60s is carefully crafted to break up nicely.

VA1-2 Mega Drives are not technically the problem, it's only loud games that distort, so really it was the game designers who made games outside the spec of the original system. But they did, and now the clearest/best sounding stock MD has some mild distortion. It's really not that bad at all anyway, but an emulator will in a sense be too perfect.

 

[pje122]

Hello friends.
Looking for a little guidance.
I'm finally getting around to setting up my PVM-20M4U.
Definitely some issues to work through but the first one I want to inquire about is my lack of audio. I have a Gen 1 Genesis hooked up to the PVM via the following:

Games boot up fine, will need to do some tweaking later, but no audio at all. I assume I want to plug my red RCA connector into the RGB Audio In hole but that does nothing besides create a buzz sound when I turn the volume up. And after that I've tried every other red/white/audio input/audio output permutation, just to be sure. Also, FYI, I do not have the RGB SCART stereo jack hooked up to anything because it seems my PVM is mono anyway.
Here is what the back looks like:

Anyone have any ideas on what I might be missing? Really hoping this is not a hardware issue.

 

[Peagles]

Have you tried plugging in white instead of red?

 

[pje122]

I have. Like I said I have tried all manner of connector to input permutations. I wonder if the unplugged RGB SCART stereo jack is causing a problem, but I tried to plug that into Audio In as well and that didn't work. Audio does travel from Genesis connector through the SCART connector, correct? It's not just video?

 

[Khaz]

I have. Like I said I have tried all manner of connector to input permutations. I wonder if the unplugged RGB SCART stereo jack is causing a problem, but I tried to plug that into Audio In as well and that didn't work. Audio does travel from Genesis connector through the SCART connector, correct? It's not just video?

I'm guessing not in this specific cable, the audio comes through the Jack only.

Two things to try before anything else: make sure your Genesis outputs something by using headphones you know are working; test your cable with another audio source (like your phone) and another receiver.

 

[Teknoman]

Yup, had to bust out the screwdriver. Never noticed that the colors were abit off for certain games until I was watching one of my captures right after seeing someone else play the same game.

Now things are back to normal. Looks like there was more green/yellow hue on things.

 

[Oare]

I have. Like I said I have tried all manner of connector to input permutations. I wonder if the unplugged RGB SCART stereo jack is causing a problem, but I tried to plug that into Audio In as well and that didn't work. Audio does travel from Genesis connector through the SCART connector, correct? It's not just video?

Genesis/Megadrive model 1 only outputs mono sound through the din-8 connector so like Peagles said, you should use white and not red.
But apparently, you've tried that already, as well as the jack, and none worked, so there is definitely some kind of problem here.

First thing you could do would be to check with an RCA cable on the same setup if you do have sound coming out of the Genesis.
If yes, then the problem is with your RGB cable's sound output.
If you have a multimeter, a quick and easy way to make sure would be to test if you have any continuity between pin 6 of the din plug and relevant pins on the RGB side (pins 1 and 5 for Japanese RGB21 and pins 2 and 6 for SCART), as well as on the jack plug.

Do other sources output sound properly on that same monitor?

 

[Madao]

i tried upscaling a 720p video from the FM to 1440p for Youtube.

here is the result

not much of a difference but i guess it's like that due to the simplicity of the game.

 

[D.Lo]

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but if I see a Mega Drive 1 RGB cable with a 3.5mm jack, I'd be guessing the 3.5mm is designed to be plugged into the MD's headphone jack, enabling stero sound to be fed to the Scart plug...

 

[catabarez]

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but if I see a Mega Drive 1 RGB cable with a 3.5mm jack, I'd be guessing the 3.5mm is designed to be plugged into the MD's headphone jack, enabling stero sound to be fed to the Scart plug...

Yup. I even have a patch cable for the 32x that plugs into the headphone jack so stereo audio gets patched through. The best part is that this patch cable has a mini din 9 socket like a model 2 genesis so I can use my model 2 genesis SCART cable on my model 1.

 

[missile]

Yes the curve will have a single hard clip.

Solid state amps are designed to not clip at all in most cases (unless it's a specifically designed distortion circuit like a pedal), so when they do it's a mistake and usually sounds very bad.

I mean this was true of tubes to start with, until people started to like the natural way they clipped, and now every valve amp since the 60s is carefully crafted to break up nicely.

VA1-2 Mega Drives are not technically the problem, it's only loud games that distort, so really it was the game designers who made games outside the spec of the original system. But they did, and now the clearest/best sounding stock MD has some mild distortion. It's really not that bad at all anyway, but an emulator will in a sense be too perfect.

Ah, I see.

The cool thing with the tubes is that the break-up can be controlled. Not only
can the operation point be controlled but also the shape of the (dynamic)
characteristic curve to a given degree. But it needs a good musician to
control all these things at, well, runtime.