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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
- Start date
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Congrats!!!
theSlacker
Member
Congrats! How did you keep the filthy peasants from breaking your console/everdrive?
Also, unrelated, but how did entrement get banned? Loved reading their posts.
Congrats!
RadarScope1
Member
What kind of TV?
The HDMI mod will undo the AA blur but not the smeared texture filter. Like so:
I was hoping we could play around with both. I know most games were made with filtering in mind and the textures would be a mess with giant pixels, but it would be nice to dial it back on really smeared games.
I was hoping we could play around with both. I know most games were made with filtering in mind and the textures would be a mess with giant pixels, but it would be nice to dial it back on really smeared games.
So, this is slightly off topic, but I'm sitting here with family watching football on my glorious HDTV and I can totally tell that the cable box is doing a shitty job of upscaling from 1080i to 1080p :-/
Noticing the deinterlace artifacts is pretty annoying. So, I'm going to research whether there is any setting on my particular cable box to have it output at the source material's native resolution. Assuming I'm successful and that such an option exists, have any of you ever tried using the Framemeister to upscale cable TV?
Am I nuts to want to use it to upscale from 720p and 1080i content? It's also possible that simply enabling a "native res" mode from the cable box and allowing my HDTV to scale the image might also do the trick to clean up the quality.
Speaking of which, I think it'd also be kind of interesting to compare the way each modern console upscales sub-1080p content. It's pretty clear to me that not all scalers are created equal.
Edit:
The smeared textures were filtered? Are you sure? Intuition tells me that they're simply low-res textures that are stretched over large polygonal surfaces.
Noticing the deinterlace artifacts is pretty annoying. So, I'm going to research whether there is any setting on my particular cable box to have it output at the source material's native resolution. Assuming I'm successful and that such an option exists, have any of you ever tried using the Framemeister to upscale cable TV?
Am I nuts to want to use it to upscale from 720p and 1080i content? It's also possible that simply enabling a "native res" mode from the cable box and allowing my HDTV to scale the image might also do the trick to clean up the quality.
Speaking of which, I think it'd also be kind of interesting to compare the way each modern console upscales sub-1080p content. It's pretty clear to me that not all scalers are created equal.
Edit:
The smeared textures were filtered? Are you sure? Intuition tells me that they're simply low-res textures that are stretched over large polygonal surfaces.
makeemsayuhjr
Neo Member
In the early stages of planning out my game room and just curious what you guys would recommend for a gaming TV? Looking for around a 60" give or take. Looking for good picture / little lag / etc.
I should add that I am using a frameister / scart for older consoles.
I should add that I am using a frameister / scart for older consoles.
They're low-res textures stretched over polygons which creates a mess of big pixels in some games. Then the (bilinear?) filter blurs them to hell. I think some emulators let you disable this filter. Then you can really see how limited N64 textures were compared to PS1, Saturn, even the DS.
Depends on what you're after. Maximum picture quality and scaling, super low lag, or something with a little of both but doesn't blow the doors off anything.
If you aren't sensitive to lag, you'll be fine shooting for the moon on whatever plasmas are still available. They won't have motion blur like LCDs and LEDs in that size range (Personally, I find this more important than lag) and have some of the best contrast and color reproduction.
If input lag is a priority, I still think some plasmas do alright, but perhaps other tech based sets will do better by virtue of them not aiming for extra processing for high end theatre applications.
They're low-res textures stretched over polygons which creates a mess of big pixels in some games. Then the (bilinear?) filter blurs them to hell. I think some emulators let you disable this filter. Then you can really see how limited N64 textures were compared to PS1, Saturn, even the DS.
Crazy. I've never seen this before. Obviously the smearing is necessary on certain textures to make them look somewhat sensible.
D.Lo
Member
The problem is, as quite well demonstrated there, the game was cleverly designed to take advantage of the feature, so undoing something the designers assumed was there wrecks the visual design.
If the filter wasn't there, the designers would have chosen to use their resources differently.
If the filter wasn't there, the designers would have chosen to use their resources differently.
I feel the same way. Did developers at least have the option to not blur textures?
I don't want games to look as raw as the top photo. Just something in between if with adjustable levels or a better filter. I think the blurry picture gets all the hate when the heavy-handed smearing is probably more to blame for that recognizable N64 look that is now despised.
Really ambitious N64 games aged so poorly. I borrowed Jet Force Gemini back in the day, played it on my Panasonic CRT and quit after 10 minutes because the combination of low FPS, blurring and aggressively smeared textures gave the entire game a nauseating look. I would probably turn to N64 emulation to alleviate all my complaints except the controller is too different for anything else to be a good substitute... and the emulators suck last I checked.
If they did I have never seen it practiced. Quake 64 lets you disable the nasty AA filter but nothing to do with the textures. That's the most variation I have seen.
Really ambitious N64 games aged so poorly. I borrowed Jet Force Gemini back in the day, played it on my Panasonic CRT and quit after 10 minutes because the combination of low FPS, blurring and aggressively smeared textures gave the entire game a nauseating look. I would probably turn to N64 emulation to alleviate all my complaints except the controller is too different for anything else to be a good substitute... and the emulators suck last I checked.
If they did I have never seen it practiced. Quake 64 lets you disable the nasty AA filter but nothing to do with the textures. That's the most variation I have seen.
NormalFish
Banned
Some games look better than other without the filtering. And the filtering was optional for devs, afaik. Thing is the N64 just didn't have as much space for textures, so it was generally excepted that the filtering was the way to go.
Honestly it's only an issue on really big objects like that tree stump. The ground textures I actually quite like, and most NPCs in OoT look passable as well from what I've seen.
Honestly it's only an issue on really big objects like that tree stump. The ground textures I actually quite like, and most NPCs in OoT look passable as well from what I've seen.
drhankmccoyphd
Member
Anyone have thoughts on the jvc bm-h1900su? I'm currently on a 14" PVM 1351q so it's a pretty lateral upgrade apart from size, 14" vs 19". I've been on the lookout for a ~20 incher so this caught my eye. Seller wants $100 firm. Yay or nay?
PumpkinSpice
Banned
Has anyone messed around with scaling GameBoy Interface or 240p GameBoy Player at all with the Framemeister?
Basic math tells me that a 6x zoom should get me to 960 pixels tall but I can't seem to get the ZOOM_SIZE and ZOOM_WIDTH to play nicely to make it pixel perfect.
Basic math tells me that a 6x zoom should get me to 960 pixels tall but I can't seem to get the ZOOM_SIZE and ZOOM_WIDTH to play nicely to make it pixel perfect.
geniusbits
Member
This is the part of the thread I don't get, this razor sharp pixel obsession. At the time, N64 graphics were very impressive, and the smeary look was cool and different. Now everyone has bead sprites of their favorite characters and worships the pixel, even though the whole history of graphic development was an attempt to hide the pixel from sight. It's like, you can like Michael Jackson and Pavement, even though Stephen Malkmus's vocals are often off key and all over the place, and not want to replace his vocal track with a pitch perfect Michael Jackson take. I'd take the smooth 3D gameplay of OoT with its smeary floor textures over previous gen type play of SotN with its razor sharp pixels any day.
NormalFish
Banned
I hope you realize that your opinion isn't necessarily indicative of the opinions of others then or now. I, for one, was never a fan of the way N64 games looked in comparison to PSX games. I always found they looked smudged and odd. Though I did like the art style of certain games such as the Banjo games.
D.Lo
Member
N64 never comes up as well in screenshots as it does in motion. It had by far the most solid, smooth, pixelated-free looking 3D at the time. Sometimes PS1/Saturn games look better in still shots, but those textures didn't stay still when the camera moved, and there were texture seams all over the place, so real 3D games like Tomb Raider etc looked like pixel soup in motion. Compare Coolboarders with its direct contemporary 1080. Texture seams, jumpy textures, scabby animation, low poly characters and sparse environments, 1080 is so much smoother and more solid. You had to do some serious tricks to have solid smooth 3D in Saturn/PS1 games, and the best looking games got around it by vastly limiting the field of view (Metal Gear, Crash) or do away with 3D environments altogether, like all the pre-rendered games.
In the end it was just an awkward generation trying to do 3D graphics through the 240p lens, and the N64's approach was the one that produced the most stability with the resources available.
But there were some awesome, clean achievements too. Indiana Jones, Majora's Mark, Banjo, Rayman etc.
In the end it was just an awkward generation trying to do 3D graphics through the 240p lens, and the N64's approach was the one that produced the most stability with the resources available.
But there were some awesome, clean achievements too. Indiana Jones, Majora's Mark, Banjo, Rayman etc.
Sparrowhawk
Member
They're low-res textures stretched over polygons which creates a mess of big pixels in some games. Then the (bilinear?) filter blurs them to hell. I think some emulators let you disable this filter. Then you can really see how limited N64 textures were compared to PS1, Saturn, even the DS.
This is absolutely insane to me.
An external amp.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Any speakers that accept RCA should do the trick with a simple adapter (and unless you are going the monitor speaker route, those tend to come with their own amps anyway).
geniusbits
Member
I can only speak to people I knew at the time and the magazines (UGP, Gamepro, EGM). It's kind of like what, I think 645 says, about CRTs are for playing games whereas scalers and HDTVs are for looking at them. N64 games felt alive compared to PS1 and Saturn. Comparing Mario 64 to any attempt at 3D by PS1 is like comparing different generations almost. I would be very surprised to see anyone had brought up low res textures as a major negative in OoT back then. It's like that FF6 screenshot without no filter many pages back, the pure pixels are many times not pleasing but my point is they are always, always without a doubt not the intention of the game makers. Opinion is one thing, and sometimes for 2D games I think the thick ass scan lines, sharp pixels etc we can get now with this unavailable then equipment looks cool, but it is an objective fact that the games were not designed with that intention.
There are too many assumptions in your post stated as facts. I was an N64 fanboy and I can tell you the common N64 criticisms were a thing even back then. Plenty of my buddies thought the system looked kind of like crap for reasons ranging from blur, fog, smudges (smeared textures), perceived simple graphics and scope of games. I did not agree with all of these but I definitely thought the system was not aging gracefully. Especially with late gen games doing more than the system could handle and having what to me was a nauseating look. See my Jet Force Gemini example.
Who wants exact razor sharp pixels? Not me. If I did I would settle with an N64 emulator on my plasma. I just want a great RGB picture on my CRT like all my other classic consoles. A couple of these were modded to get there so it's not really outlandish to wonder about what could be done to the N64's now terribly dated attempts at smoothing out graphics. It's the only console I know of that in its current state undoes the benefits of RGB and makes it hard to see an improvement over S-video.
PeterBazooka
Member
Audio options? picked this (1442QM) set up recently and just got my SCART/BCN adapter and noticed there's no audio ins on the analog RGB channel?
Back of my panel:
any recommendations?
This inexpensive lepai amp + cheap pair of bookshelf speakers on craiglist or kijiji.
geniusbits
Member
I would bet 99% of graphical complaints about N64 at the time was about "Nintendo fog." There were also complaints about the games looking "kiddy" but that has nothing to do with visual quality per se.
Beer Monkey
Member
Well, I've been playing all the way through SNES Yoshi's Island on a plasma and I don't feel like I'm really missing anything. My plasma looks a hell of a lot like a high quality 240p CRT when I use integer scaling and CRT filters in Retroarch. In fact, the first time I played Yoshi's Island was on a TRU demo kiosk that used a *really* good flat crt and I'm getting a closer look to that display than I have on any setup I've ever owned. Does anybody else remember the mid-90s TRU SNES demo kiosks?
Nah, 8 and 16-bit game designers definitely knew that typical consumer CRTs would soften the image and make their designs easier on the eyes.
I heard complaints about more than just fog, in my circle of friends anyway.
Re: screen quality back in the day, the first time I saw Gen 5 games was Tomb Raider, Sega Saturn, on a friend's "weird television" that to my confusion displayed nothing on screen before the system booted. It was many years later I realized it was a 240p CRT monitor and I remember being amazed by the picture quality and wanting THAT visual experience myself.
Has to be unintentional tunnel vision. The first time I tried to do my setup I was wasting a lot of time and went down the illogical path of trying to figure out how to feed all of my consoles' audio into my CRT and get stereo out of the crappy mono output. I somehow forgot to apply everything I learned the multiple times I have set up HDTVs with standalone receivers, speakers, etc. There was even the time I felt my smartphone's native audio was shit and had a setup with a portable USB DAC/amp.
Re: screen quality back in the day, the first time I saw Gen 5 games was Tomb Raider, Sega Saturn, on a friend's "weird television" that to my confusion displayed nothing on screen before the system booted. It was many years later I realized it was a 240p CRT monitor and I remember being amazed by the picture quality and wanting THAT visual experience myself.
Has to be unintentional tunnel vision. The first time I tried to do my setup I was wasting a lot of time and went down the illogical path of trying to figure out how to feed all of my consoles' audio into my CRT and get stereo out of the crappy mono output. I somehow forgot to apply everything I learned the multiple times I have set up HDTVs with standalone receivers, speakers, etc. There was even the time I felt my smartphone's native audio was shit and had a setup with a portable USB DAC/amp.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Watch out: any Lepai below the LP-2020A+ range is garbage and even the LP-2020A+ requires a good power source if you plan to couple them to some decent speakers. Otherwise it's noise central. Use a laptop-like power brick instead of the supplied wall wart.
Their actual power is also ridiculously low.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
As long as you're not looking to shake your house, the amount of amplification is totally fine.
It's $25, it doesn't really need to be an audiophile's dream.
Thank you all! I swear I took some photos but can't find them on my phone, hopefully my friends took some! I put up a sign saying to keep food and drinks well away and to come and get the bride if anything went wrong lol. Nobody broke anything so I was relieved!
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
When you take into consideration the added cost of a decent PS, it makes perfect sense to aim for something better at the same price. But specially since you may want to drive something more complex than old school 8 and 16bit boops.
PeterBazooka
Member
I own 2 of these units paired with Sony bookshelfs and I think they work great for the price. Yes if f you crank it, you'll get some noise, but for a simple retro gaming setup, i think they do the trick. Better than TV speakers or no speakers, and cheap.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Well, anything is better than TV speakers (unless you are rocking some crazy B&O, Metz or Loewe setup).
There's also the little known fact of underpowered amps damaging speakers due to clipping. They may sound fine now, but you may end nuking your speakers after a while. So watch out if you want to pair one of those cheapo Lepais to some decent speakers.
Good friends don't let friends use underpowered amps.
There's also the little known fact of underpowered amps damaging speakers due to clipping. They may sound fine now, but you may end nuking your speakers after a while. So watch out if you want to pair one of those cheapo Lepais to some decent speakers.
Good friends don't let friends use underpowered amps.
PeterBazooka
Member
Good to know. Thank you.
One of the top 5 thing I love about bringing my consoles into modernity, is the way my Genesis sounds through my receiver. It's yet another dimension of revelation. Crank that sucker up! Shake the walls and still hear everything crystal clear. Seriously, if you got some backwater audio setup, you are definitely missing out.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
And the Genesis/MegaDrive wasn't known for being a particularly awesome performer (even if I think some games like Contra: Hard Corps easily rivalled the best the SNES had to offer). The first time I played some Neo Geo games using my old and bassy Trust speakers (which being Trust were nothing close amazing, but still heads and shoulders above the garbage used in most Arcade cabinets) I was blown away. Shock Troopers 2 was like FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK.
Manufacturers tend to overstate their power to ridiculous levels, so I think many people may be in the clear as long as they are not using some high quality setup. My current test rig outputs 2x120W, but it's closer to 2x35W in reality (and it's still way more powerful than I need, so...)
Manufacturers tend to overstate their power to ridiculous levels, so I think many people may be in the clear as long as they are not using some high quality setup. My current test rig outputs 2x120W, but it's closer to 2x35W in reality (and it's still way more powerful than I need, so...)
IrishNinja
Member
belated congrats peagles! now that your'e all married & mature holla when you dont want ur baby games for babies
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
I hear that. Especially awesome with the Saturn -- that system had great audio output, and those compositions just come to fuckin' life on a real sound setup.
Genesis + Sub = awesome.
Same with Neo Geo and select Saturn games. Every Genesis game has such bassy power.
Exactly! It's like you can't help but dance a little while playing MD. lol Bassed YM2612
Yeh I'm too mature now. I'm gonna go trade them in at GameStop for $3.
I had a Mega Drive set up with Hyperstone Heist and Sonic 2, SNES with Super Bomberman, Super Mario World, and Street Fighter II Turbo, Saturn with Guardian Heroes, and PS1 with Tekken 3, Point Blank, and Point Blank 2. I had the N64 under the table ready to go but we didn't end up hooking it up. I saw people mostly playing Hyperstone Heist and Super Mario World during the night. Me and my husband had a good run at Guardian Heroes later on in the night when we weren't being pulled aside by guests for a few minutes
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
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