Yes because SH was actually supported by the US when he was doing the dirty work for them.
Lol and after that? What the fuck are on about. The US military had to be used to destroy his hold over the country.
They couldn't influence it any other way.
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US expels Russian diplomats over cyber attacks
- Thread starter fluffydelusions
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Lol and after that? What the fuck are on about. The US military had to be used to destroy his hold over the country.
They couldn't influence it any other way.
Netherscourge
Banned
Yes because SH was actually supported by the US when he was doing the dirty work for them.
Back then they were allies against Iran. Invading Kuwait quickly changed that arrangement.
As did change the relationship between the US and Russia when they annexed the Ukraine.
Still, we're talking about illegally meddling with another country's real, democratic elections, which Russia did, in order to get the leader that THEY wanted in power.
I must have missed that in the news.
"The US should have bad relations with Russia because they invaded two countries!"
"But the US also invaded two countries, causing multiple times the civilian casualties and regional disturbances, so why would that argument be the reason?"
"Lol russian apologists here again with their whataboutisms"
Lol! Yes and that was a brilliant move that made the world so much better! Thank you for taking care of the bad guys, "exporting democracy" and make the world a peaceful place... USA! USA! USA! 🇺🇸
Netherscourge
Banned
Trump is set up to look like a Russian Puppett.
He already was, clearly.
But next month, when he strikes a pen through Obama's sanctions against Russia, it'll cement his legacy as Putin's stooge beyond any doubt and be recorded in history for the rest of time. Trump will be setting his co-conspirators free and leave a lasting stigma on him as the US President Elected by Russia.
He already was, clearly.
But next month, when he strikes a pen through Obama's sanctions against Russia, it'll cement his legacy as Putin's stooge beyond any doubt and be recorded in history for the rest of time. Trump will be setting his co-conspirators free and leave a lasting stigma on him as the US President Elected by Russia.
The Bush administration is universally hated. It's not like American's or American politicians see the Iraq war as a positive thing.
Netherscourge
Banned
Whataboutism is perfectly legitimate, especially when it demonstrates clear hypocrisy.
Not legitimate at all when you use it to defend the indefensible.
Okay? So should we let Russia get off Scot free? Did I defend the US's previous actions? Not to mention they were under an admin that is hated by pretty much everyone.
Size of Ukraine as a whole:
603,500 km²
Size of Crimea:
27,000 km²
How exactly does that equate "when they annexed the Ukraine"?
No, but we should argue along objective lines("Breach of international law, procedures, etc..") instead of embarassing oneself with a complete lack of self-awareness.
They tried.
Except there is no hypocrisy.
The Obama administration hasn't anexxed any territory, Putin has.
The Obama administration hasn't hacked a major political party, Putin has.
Netherscourge
Banned
Sorry, Comrade. I should have specified Crimea.
Using masked troops to sneak in and overthrow Ukrainian territory I guess isn't a big deal since it was only 27K km of territory.
My bad.
Just being curious, what are your news outlets? Facebook? Because most people who shit on mainstream news I know believe crap on the internet because 'alternative' you know
The Iraqi war was one of the worst things we did as a country - it completely destabilized the whole region. The Vietnam War (when America lied to the people) comes right next to it. Russian and America both have bloodied hands and neither can play the righteous card when it comes to international politics.
Personally, I think we should be developing friendlier relations with Russia and not making them our enemy. The enemy of the world should be ISIS.
Please tell us which news outlets we should listen to.
I agree with this. Too bad Russia ain''t doing much against ISIS in Syria, lets hope it changes in the coming months.
Everyone who is actually informed knows this is the case. Obama just wants to set it in stone.
The only reason Trump is complaining that it makes the transition more difficult is because he won't be able to buddy up with Putin after inauguration without looking like the puppet he claims not to be.
Any US leader would take these cyber attacks seriously and wouldn't be opposed to this type of action against Russia, especially one as jingoistic and xenophobic as Trump. Unless of course they were grateful for the intervention.
Except we totally can. The Iraq war was done by Bush. Putin has done all of Russia's fuckery recently.
They clearly don't desire that.
Why do you build strawman like this? You know very well I didn't say anything about it not being a big deal. You said "they annexed the Ukraine", I replied that annexing less than 5% of a country (still 5% too much) doesn't somehow constitute them annexing the whole country. And the "Comrad" doesn't make you look extra smart or witty either tbf.
It doesn't work like this, Bush didn't drop from the sky into presidency but was elected and in fact re-elected after both wars had started.
Yes, people tend to believe information from every single intelligence agency. The meddling has also been reported across Europe as well.
But fuck that right? Alex Jones and Hannity say it's bullshit on Facebook, and that's clearly where you get your "real news"
🤔
Not looking at the GOP as a savior. It going to cause chaos, for good or ill. During the primaries, they were so busy eating each other alive, that they allowed Trump to happen. Before that, there have been internal power struggles between the Tea Party and the old guard that have hampered their own agenda. Let's not forget how they went from Boehner to Ryan, and still don't like Ryan, cause they're not republican enough. Toss in Trump on top of that, it is going to be a terrible show.
The voting block has nothing to do with what is going to happen in the next 4 years- it's the guys on the Hill.
petran79
Banned
FreedomFighter
Member
These actions aren't just limited to the Bush administration though...
I think the whataboutism claim is a means to silence criticism of US wrongdoing. Doesn't excuse Russian wrongdoing, but more about throwing stones from glass houses. It's just not a good look.
I think it will if Russia and America stop shitting on each other. The economic sanctions hurt the Russian people a lot and if we can come to some kind of agreement, I'm fairly positive Russia will assist in exterminating ISIS.
It's obviously much more complicated, but I think American and Russia can restore their relations.
I only speak of each country as a whole - not the President making the decisions. What benefit do we get from corning Russia into a corner to the point of where they will have nothing to lose?
Relationships need to be repaired, in my opinion.
Is this a joke? Are you talking about trading and being on good terms? Putin's the one who flooded Crimea with propaganda and created a separatist movement, causing a civil war that resulted in a land grab that the international community has wholesale rejected.
DontBeThatGuy
Member
No, no, we should reward Putin for his awfulness.
That's actually the opposite of whataboutism.
Netherscourge
Banned
You're comparing political meddling with armed invasion & annexation?
Had Russia not already been in the dog house for Crimea, Russia MIGHT have a leg to stand on with US political meddling,.
However, using a malicious cyber attack to steal private information to smear a candidate's campaign goes beyond a backroom deal or a propaganda dump. That's straight-up espionage.
Russia already had a record. They're now on their 2nd or 3rd offense.
The Living Tribunal
Member
I'll bite. Define meddling.
Bring me the list of countries Obama has invaded, I'll wait.
It isn't. Feel free to criticize the US. These people are stealth defending Russia's actions.
Russia clearly wants it's superpower status back and will do anything to get it. That's why it has RT and is making power grabs in multiple countries.
We shouldn't support countries that act this way. They are a threat to global peace. If they want to work together, then they should act like it.
Except there is no situation where the US, or any nation, would put aside interference in it's political process for the sake of the "greater good". Especially in a scenario where that "greater good" is actually just an attack against a foreign threat. Russia is not the only nation who the US can look to in order to battle ISIS. Basically the entirety of western democracy is against ISIS. The same democracy that Russia just actively attempted to interfere with.
Even if this was one of our allies, the US would still take action against it. Add in everything that has happened between the US and Russia in the past few years and this is basically good PR for Obama.
What box is that? Putin's actions and Trump's responses make it more likely for people to recognize Trump for what he is - Putin's stooge.
Sorc3r3r
Member
I think that there was like a original sin stigma in the Bush junior administration that is still plaguing the trust of many people on mainstream news agencies.
Even if the agencies were led to report those things because the administration sold them as true and in the end the first victims of such administration behaviour have been the news agencies themselves.
The most difficult task is to rebuild a shattered trust.
On this many news outsider are building a fortune and now dictating even national feelings.
They won't be a threat if work with them under a controlled situation. I think diplomacy can still win out.
Yeah, it's no lie that Obama and Putin have never truly liked each other.
He doesn't want diplomacy. He wants the USSR back.
If hacking the US isn't proof of that then nothing is. He's an authoritarian that wants as much power as possible.
How did you come up with that? I think it's more complicated than what you and I know. Economically, diplomacy will always be better for Russia.
I don't know if you're Russian or not, but he is probably the best leader the country can have right now. Russia will never have a democracy like America.
Not necessarily the communist part, but the size and power part for sure. Just look at Putin's actions.
Precisely. Putin never wanted the peace you describe.
I understand that the only way world peace can ever be achieved is through forgiveness, but that doesn't mean we can ignore legitimate attacks against democracy.
Besides, Putin is an obstacle to peace as is Trump. These people should not be in power if we hope to progress.
He's not using Diplomacy. He's using espionage, pay ops and armed warfare. None of this is diplomatic, these are all aggressive actions.
FreedomFighter
Member
Only new theater Obama oversaw was Libya. His brand of war crimes and soverignty violations had more to do with drone warfare and funding undesirables in Syria.
I don't really see it in that way. I think people who take some sort of pride in US being a superpower view this conflict in that way. I think US is just as much a threat to global peace and has been the main nation fighting actual wars of aggression for the last 15 or so years (even sooner) and actually having regime change plans for several nations know publicly. If your idea of maintaining global peace is just kowtow to US demands, then sadly those days are going by the wayside. I know reading such words make some angry but it is what it is.
And as for glass houses, I think your criticisms of Russia are fine so long as you're not on some American exceptionalist "we can do it, just Russia can't" type time - which is where I think most of the "whataboutism!" deflections are coming from.
sankt-Antonio
:^)--?-<
16 years ago he wanted to build bridges with the EU, he proposed a trading route from Lisbon to Vladivostok worth trillion of euros. So at that point he wanted political peace and cooperation's.
Someone had no interest for a strong EU/Russian partnership.
These are not comparable to Russia's actions.
Receipts, show em.
Even if it's true, doesn't justify his current actions.
sankt-Antonio
:^)--?-<
Artikel from Spiegel.de from 2010, it was only six years ago, though that was a lot older.
Edit: Since then the NATO has been aggressive in its Russian boarder politics (amount of stationed soldiers) and broke contracts by placing rockets at places they agreed to not to place there etc.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
He also going through the routes of power like a legitimate elected leader, even stepped down for a new PM. He then proceeded to shred free speech, took control of media and arrested/murdered dissent, promoted government takeover of industry, consolidated power and removed checks and term limits on his power. Putin was different and the world treated him differently when he looked like a legitimate leader.
Putin and his pals are masters at sounding level-headed while doing a bunch of crap on the side. When they get caught, they lie, divert attention, change their version again and again, play the victim card and finally admit they did it when no one cares anymore.
Amazing anyone still falls for that trick.
Amazing anyone still falls for that trick.
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