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US expels Russian diplomats over cyber attacks

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G

Ghost

Chili Con Carnage!
It's all just playing into Trumps hands, 3 weeks of 'Get your fallout shelters on sale now, the end is nigh' followed by Donald announcing a new era of peace and cooperation with Russia 'The greatest peace, biggest ever peace', and Putin will turn his full attention to the continuing work of destabilizing the EU
 
K

kirblar

Member
Dalibor68 said:
No, I think that with Trump, Fillon and the UK dropping out of the EU next year there will be a relaxation of the tense relationship between Russia and the West which will also lead to the conflict in Syria being resolved much quicker. And without Russia attacking the baltics starting WW3, annexing more of Ukraine or other hyperbolic nonsense. We can look back to my post at the end of 2017 and see how it turned out.

These sanctions in particular, in regards to diplomats being followed and harassed in Russia (if it's true), are not wrong. But let's not pretend this is just that and not a general "Fuck you, I'm out" departure present by Obama.
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Who cares about relations with Russia at this point? They're invading other countries!
 
D

Dalibor68

Banned
kirblar said:
Invading other countries *in order to annex them into their own territory.
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Completely arbitary goalpost-moving as the use of force was forbidden either way. With the same arbitrariness you could also use the regional consequences as measure and there South-Ossetia/Abkhazia/Ukraine still seem a lot better off than Afghanistan and Iraq (plus the rest of the terrorist groups this mess spawned).

Using the invasion of other countries is really not what you want to use as an arguement. Even aside from that of course relations with the biggest country on this planet with the biggest arsenal of nuclear weapons are important, at least beyond a "who cares about relations with them?" point.

And even if the US had the power to sanction them so much for the economy to completely collapse and Putin to be ousted - are you saying it's better for the worlds biggest nuclear arsenal to fall into the hands of the communist party or the ultranationalists? Or do you think suddenly an unblemished pro-democratic new candidate from a new party will ride down from the heavens on a unicorn? We know how that well that fantasy usually works in reality.

So please give me a short draft of what the "endgame" in relations with Russia would/should look like according to you.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Dalibor68 said:
Completely arbitary goalpost-moving as the use of force was forbidden either way. With the same arbitrariness you could also use the regional consequences as measure and there South-Ossetia/Abkhazia/Ukraine still seem a lot better off than Afghanistan and Iraq (plus the rest of the terrorist groups this mess spawned).

Using the invasion of other countries is really not what you want to use as an arguement. Even aside from that of course relations with the biggest country on this planet with the biggest arsenal of nuclear weapons are important, at least beyond a "who cares about relations with them?" point.
Click to expand...
Afghanistan got invaded because the Taliban were harboring the terrorists who killed 3000+ people in our country. It was necessary, warranted, and absolutely the right thing to do at the time. Yes, the country's still a mess, but it's been a mess for decades.

Comparing this to Russia invading Crimea in order to add to their territory is completely ridiculous, and the idea that the Crimean Peninsula is "better off" now is absolutely disgusting.
 
D

Dalibor68

Banned
kirblar said:
Afghanistan got invaded because the Taliban were harboring the terrorists who killed 3000+ people in our country. It was necessary, warranted, and absolutely the right thing to do at the time. Yes, the country's still a mess, but it's been a mess for decades.

Comparing this to Russia invading Crimea in order to add to their territory is completely ridiculous, and the idea that the Crimean Peninsula is "better off" now is absolutely disgusting.
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Good thing then that I didn't say that alone, so please don't make things up.

Dalibor68 said:
Completely arbitary goalpost-moving as the use of force was forbidden either way. With the same arbitrariness you could also use the regional consequences as measure and there South-Ossetia/Abkhazia/Ukraine still seem a lot better off than Afghanistan and Iraq (plus the rest of the terrorist groups this mess spawned).
Click to expand...
 
K

kirblar

Member
Dalibor68 said:
Good thing then that I didn't say that alone, so please don't make things up.
Click to expand...
When someone punches you in the face, you punch them back. So Russia has nukes. ? So what? We know they won't use them (because they're self-interested and not insane.) Keeping up relations is pointless here- Putin has delusions of grandeur and wants to destabilize the western world in order to grab territory and power for himself.

What you are arguing for is appeasement. And that never works with a man like this.
 
B

Breads

Banned
ramparter said:
Because US never got involved in outher countries politics..
Click to expand...

How are we supposed to respond to this? Does this suddenly negate the implications of what is taking place?

Don't get me wrong, I felt like that too for a little bit, but yeah. Where do we go from that.
 
Sorc3r3r

Sorc3r3r

Member
TarNaru33 said:
In general the West is not the same as Russia, they can't do things on the foreign stage while ignoring the public backlash for long periods of time anymore. Russia do not have these restraints; it uses foreign issues to distract it's populace and is largely undemocratic.

Also, I do not know what you mean by "shouldn't be possible", as there was nothing really stopping it. Misinformation is pretty much always apparent in elections, but this time it was done by racists, trolls, and foreign government on a medium we all do not want to be monitored heavily (internet). Our media also caused this with their focus on Trump's actions rather than Hillary's policies, not just Russian government actions.

You are also incorrect on your thoughts that U.S can't dictate many geopolitical agendas. It can, but Democrats in general tend to be more reactionary on global politics, preferring to find other routes or lead task forces and other such organizations rather than just go in unilaterally. Issue with that approach, is many nations have different agendas and many do not have the desire or means to share the workload.

Putin isn't smart, his opponents are just more restrained for moral and political reasons than he is and that is a good thing, but as you can see it has major disadvantages.
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Fine.

But, In my opinion the role and the position of the west after 8 years of this President are in a much weaker position than before, the last huge and unthinkable event, the summit between Iran, Russia and Turkey for the shaping of the future of Syria, without any western country is something totally new in modern history.
I'm absolutely curious too see the western reactions to this, how they will sell it to their public opinion and how they are going to retaliate.

I don't know if people understand how big this is, it changes the whole world geopolitical equilibrium.
Russia for the first time got a stronghold on the middle east, this means Mediterranean access, gas and oil control over the region by a Nation that already has a central role in the energy distribution, means that the Shia Iran got a huge role in region for the first time as well, this means the fall from grace of the USA Arabia axes that ruled the region till the ww2.
It's something that may change our future for the next 50 years if not challenged fast.
And be wary of the Egypt swinging.


Also sorry,but i can't, by any means, follow you on morality of the west in applying their agendas is just naive and doesn't have any place in the execution of geopolitical targets.

Public opinion was, is and will be moved by propaganda in the west as much in the east if needed.
 
T

ThoseDeafMutes

Member
Dalibor68 said:
Seems equal

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_invasions#2000.E2.80.93present
Click to expand...

Who's defending the Bush administration? Vlad P is not just a president or prime minister, he's the man singularly in charge of Russia. He will be this man for the duration of his life, until either he decides to retire or is given a polonium sleeping pill by a political rival. It's him and his government specifically that is being criticized. It's him and his government that needs to be reigned in.

Your arguments here are not particularly convincing because none of it is really a denial that what Russia has and still is doing is bad. Fueling civil wars in breakaway neighbouring states hoping to annex them, propping up friendly dictators, interfering in the American elections and so. You just think nothing should be done about it because you aren't personally affected by whatever is happening. You see no value in lifting a finger against anything bad they might do, because frankly you don't care about any of the countries that were affected. You'd much rather enjoy "good relations", as if the only alternatives were nuclear war or letting them do whatever they want forever consequence free.
 
D

Dalibor68

Banned
ThoseDeafMutes said:
Who's defending the Bush administration? Vlad P is not just a president or prime minister, he's the man singularly in charge of Russia. He will be this man for the duration of his life, until either he decides to retire or is given a polonium sleeping pill by a political rival. It's him and his government specifically that is being criticized. It's him and his government that needs to be reigned in.

Your arguments here are not particularly convincing because none of it is really a denial that what Russia has and still is doing is bad. Fueling civil wars in breakaway neighbouring states hoping to annex them, propping up friendly dictators, interfering in the American elections and so. You just think nothing should be done about it because you aren't personally affected by whatever is happening. You see no value in lifting a finger against anything bad they might do, because frankly you don't care about any of the countries that were affected. You'd much rather enjoy "good relations", as if the only alternatives were nuclear war or letting them do whatever they want forever consequence free.
Click to expand...

I was responding to:

kirblar said:
Who cares about relations with Russia at this point? They're invading other countries!
Click to expand...

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=227391309&postcount=552

Saying "The US (who has invaded two countries since 2000) should not care about relations with Russia because they have invaded other countries (2, same as the US)" is absolutely laughable. And that is ignoring huge differences in civilian bodycounts and other regional consequences.

As you say yourself I'm not denying that what Russia does is bad. Crimea annexation, Georgian invasion, support of pro-russian Rebels in eastern Ukraine, harassing western diplomats. I even said "sanctions" are appropriate in regards to for example the diplomat harassment. So I don't see how you can say I don't care about the people affected by that. I care about them as much as I care about those affected in Iraq and Afghanistan. The thing about this thread is that it's not existing in a vacuum but is specifically about the US / Russia relationship so when statements such as the one above (or "propping up dictators" - maybe have a look at countries like Saudi-Arabia?) appear I dont want to leave it uncommented.

Saying "This is a breach of international law and has to be sanctioned accordingly" is one thing, lacking any self-awareness and saying "omg these russians at it again, invading other countries and propping up dictators, who does that?" is the other. Unfortunately there seems to be more and more of the latter. In the Tupolev plane crash thread we even had someone openly wishing there would have been more casualties.

(And as for your first paragraph about Putin's standing, sure you're not wrong. But again, I ask you, which alternative do you prefer? Communist Party or the good old Ultranationalists?)
 
Guileless

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
If Tillerson laughs it up with Lavrov in January with a big novelty reset button, it would be an all-time legendary troll job.
 
S

Skyzard

Banned
kirblar said:
And that has what to do with Russia invading countries and interfering in Western elections exactly?

This ain't black/white featmongering or playing World Police, this is telling an enemy of the US and western/democratic values who is trying to actively destroy western democracy to go fuck themselves.
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What values? US invades and does the same shit.

just wow :S
 
F

FreedomFighter

Member
Putin responds by... not expelling an equal number of US diplomats but rather inviting them to the Kremlin for NYE celebration.

This dude is such a masterful troll.
 
Reckheim

Reckheim

Member
FreedomFighter said:
Putin responds by... not expelling an equal number of US diplomats but rather inviting them to the Kremlin for NYE celebration.

This dude is such a masterful troll.
Click to expand...
Yeh, makes Obama look like the bad guy in all this.

Both Trump and Putin are just having a good old laugh about this.
 
M

Meadows

Banned
sibarraz said:
This is BS, the USA doesn't annex other countries officially, but they clearly annex them from an influence point of view.

This is what foreigners think when we heard an northamerican talk about freedom

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-M_GfQVUoD...open-up-mother-fucker-FREEDOM-IS-HERE+(1).jpg
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I don't agree, I'm not from North America and I think that generally the US is a force for good.

Until you guys start chanting U-S-A all the time, then I want to join al qaeda.
 
F

FreedomFighter

Member
The only purpose of all this is to sabotage Trump's rapprochement with Russia. He'll do so anyways - invite all those diplomats back and there will be a loud chorus in the media of "See, we told you he was a Manchurian candidate - this is proof!" But it will all blow over very fast. Trump will probably also speed that up by antagonizing China some more. I don't see this having any lingering effect at all.
 
B

Breads

Banned
FreedomFighter said:
The only purpose of all this is to sabotage Trump's rapprochement with Russia. He'll do so anyways - invite all those diplomats back and there will be a loud chorus in the media of "See, we told you he was a Manchurian candidate - this is proof!" But it will all blow over very fast. Trump will probably also speed that up by antagonizing China some more. I don't see this having any lingering effect at all.
Click to expand...

I have the exact opposite feeling. I think RED SCARE/ witch hunting is going to come back in style.
 
K

KingBroly

Banned
Breads said:
I have the exact opposite feeling. I think RED SCARE/ witch hunting is going to come back in style.
Click to expand...

I agree that the 'Putin puppet' narrative won't go away, but Trump is trying to ally himself with Putin to drive a wedge between Russia and China, which is EXTREMELY important economically.
 
J

jacobeid

Banned
KingBroly said:
I agree that the 'Putin puppet' narrative won't go away, but Trump is trying to ally himself with Putin to drive a wedge between Russia and China, which is EXTREMELY important economically.
Click to expand...

Trump has no idea what he is doing. Don't even try to give him a bit of credit.
 
E

E92 M3

Member
Dalibor68 said:
Completely arbitary goalpost-moving as the use of force was forbidden either way. With the same arbitrariness you could also use the regional consequences as measure and there South-Ossetia/Abkhazia/Ukraine still seem a lot better off than Afghanistan and Iraq (plus the rest of the terrorist groups this mess spawned).

Using the invasion of other countries is really not what you want to use as an arguement. Even aside from that of course relations with the biggest country on this planet with the biggest arsenal of nuclear weapons are important, at least beyond a "who cares about relations with them?" point.

And even if the US had the power to sanction them so much for the economy to completely collapse and Putin to be ousted - are you saying it's better for the worlds biggest nuclear arsenal to fall into the hands of the communist party or the ultranationalists? Or do you think suddenly an unblemished pro-democratic new candidate from a new party will ride down from the heavens on a unicorn? We know how that well that fantasy usually works in reality.

So please give me a short draft of what the "endgame" in relations with Russia would/should look like according to you.
Click to expand...

You make great points, but it will fall on deaf ears. Putin is the best thing we can expect from Russia. Once he goes down it will be a lot worse - and all of the Russian people know this.
 
N

Netherscourge

Banned
ramparter said:
Because US never got involved in outher countries politics..
Click to expand...

The US can't get involved with elections in other countries that don't actually have REAL elections.

Surely the US wouldn't have allowed Saddam Hussein to get 98.7% of the vote in Iraq's "elections" if they could have done anything about it...
 
GTP_Daverytimes

GTP_Daverytimes

Member
E92 M3 said:
You make great points, but it will fall on deaf ears. Putin is the best thing we can expect from Russia. Once he goes down it will be a lot worse - and all of the Russian people know this.
Click to expand...

Putin is not the best thing we can expect from Russia, there has been far more reasonable leaders in Russia's history than putin. However it is true that with the current anti-american sentiment in Russia a far more hard-line candidate will take over if Putin ever steps down, should that ever happen we might start wishing Putin was Russia's leader which would be pretty funny to see.
 
K

kmax

Member
Seems like Putin didn't take the bait. Smart move, indeed. Putin's making sure not to stir the pot. Russia is already seen in a bad light, as it has unfavorable bipartisan support. With Trump as a puppet, this is the best chance that Russia will (probably) ever have to influence the most powerful nation on earth.

nothing-stops-this-train.gif
 
B

BrownWalrus

Member
Putin said that, unlike the Obama administration, Russia will not target foreign diplomats and their families days before New Year’s celebrations.

“We will not forbid families and children from spending the New Year’s holidays at the places they are used to. Moreover, I invite the children of all American diplomats with accreditation in Russia to New Year’s and Christmas festivities in the Kremlin,” the Russian president said.
 
N

NoWayOut

Member
Netherscourge said:
The US can't get involved with elections in other countries that don't actually have REAL elections.

Surely the US wouldn't have allowed Saddam Hussein to get 98.7% of the vote in Iraq's "elections" if they could have done anything about it...
Click to expand...


Yes because SH was actually supported by the US when he was doing the dirty work for them.

handshake300.jpg
 
K

kirblar

Member
BrownWalrus said:
Putin said that, unlike the Obama administration, Russia will not target foreign diplomats and their families days before New Year’s celebrations.

“We will not forbid families and children from spending the New Year’s holidays at the places they are used to. Moreover, I invite the children of all American diplomats with accreditation in Russia to New Year’s and Christmas festivities in the Kremlin,” the Russian president said.
Click to expand...
Oh yes, those poor, poor spies, having to move back home while still getting a salary.
 
R

RumblingRosco

Member
BrownWalrus said:
Putin said that, unlike the Obama administration, Russia will not target foreign diplomats and their families days before New Year’s celebrations.

“We will not forbid families and children from spending the New Year’s holidays at the places they are used to. Moreover, I invite the children of all American diplomats with accreditation in Russia to New Year’s and Christmas festivities in the Kremlin,” the Russian president said.
Click to expand...

This spin is hilarious. It's a literal "Think of the children!" ploy.
 
The Chosen One

The Chosen One

Member
I mentioned this in PoliGAF, but very slick move by Putin. His political chess game is strong. He's going to eat Trump for breakfast.

But I'd argue this actually puts Trump in even a tougher spot. Because Putin is appearing to play nice, Trump is going to be tempted to rollback the sanctions Obama just added. Trump has been trying his hardest to avoid any critical words or actions toward Russia and Putin just gave him a pathway to continue that. However taking Russia's side on this will put Trump at direct odds with quite a few Republicans in Congress and it'll give visible evidence to the American public that Trump is "Putin's Puppet".This is dangerous for Trump because any rogue action that Russia decides to do down the line, Trump will be considered complicit in it.

So while on the surface it may seem Putin made Trump's life easier with today's comments, it's actually made it harder for Trump to take the right action. The right action would be for Trump to go along with the sanctions & investigations and show at least some distance between him and Russia. But now he's going to be more tempted to make the wrong choice. Obama was actually doing Trump a favor by boxing Trump into these sanctions and investigations on Russia. But it seems Putin might have successfully got Trump out of that box with this slick move this morning and thereby ensuring Trump will stay loyal to him.
 
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