• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

US Vice-Presidential Debates 2016 |OT| Your Big Awkward Family Reunion

Who won the debate?

Results are only viewable after voting.
Status
Not open for further replies.
R

rtcn63

Member
Cross promo with Timeless? Or maybe

Early_Edition_DVD.jpg
 
N

Nairume

Banned
It'd be delightful if Kaine and co were able to catch this in time that they could make any last minute adjustments regarding what the leaked pages said they were going to hit him on.
 
A

Arkeband

Banned
Nairume said:
It'd be delightful if Kaine and co were able to catch this in time that they could make any last minute adjustments regarding what the leaked pages said they were going to hit him on.
Click to expand...

It sounds like Pence is planning to waste a bunch of time attacking Hillary, so the best thing Kaine could do is just make Pence look like the hateful religious bigot he is.
 
A

AnotherDayAnotherDollar

Banned
Pence's wife just said on CNN that Pence is prepared because he was on the debate team in high school. She said some other stuff after that (on why he's prepared), but that bit made me literally laugh out loud.
 
S

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
adam387 said:
Pence is going to be defending Donald Trump all night. He's going to have to defend the taxes, the attack on Miss Universe, the misogyny, etc. We need to keep him on that drum all night long.
Click to expand...

Then the attacks expose Pence as a man of no dignity, craven when it comes to defending positions he doesn't even believe in.

BUT....Pence is also really, really horrible. This is the guy who was forcing women to pay for funerals for babies who died before birth. The reason we're doing so well in NC is because of religious freedom bills. Pence signed one. There is a subset of voters who aren't a fan of Trump, but if we allow Pence to appear decent enough, they may feel safe enough with him. We need to show he's just as bad as Donald Trump. The Veep debate is the time we can tie Trump around the neck of the GOP. I think we should do that. But with a smile. Cause Dad is nice.
Click to expand...

You don't really need to lecture me about Pence being very conservative; the broader point is whether it's easier for the Clinton campaign to demobilize evangelicals who like Pence but hate Trump (in which case attacking Trump as being something separate from the Republican party is a good strategy) or to persuade soft-Republicans who just want lower taxes but are scared of evangelicals (in which case attacking Pence as a scary Jesus Man is a better strategy than attacking Trump).

What I am suggesting is in keeping with both Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama's strategy so far, to fixate on dividing Republicans from Trump. Hillary could have turned that alt-right speech into a discussion of how mainstream Republican ideas are a hair's breadth away from Trump. But I think she wisely did not. By setting the stakes as "Democrats versus Republicans versus This Crazy Lunatic White Supremacist Who Has Hijacked Our Politics", she gives Republicans an out where they can not vote or vote for her without feeling like they need to be a different person, give up on their traditional connections, etc.

We know that many evangelicals are in a bind. A variety of coverage suggests that they are conflicted between Trump's obvious unchristianness and vulgarity, and the fact that they're deeply conservative and don't want to support Hillary. There are also a lot of them. Mike Pence being on the ticket, and to a lesser extent Ted Cruz's endorsement, signals to them that their opinions are being taken seriously in the party. Kaine shouldn't stand up and say "I think there should be prayer in schools and no abortions" because that's not true to the campaign's values and it probably won't work anyway. But pointing out to evangelicals that they're being rope-a-doped by poor Mike Pence who is being used as a puppet to distract from Trump's lunacy is something that I think many of them are kind of aware of anyway. Making it explicit again buys them the ability to be true to themselves while not voting for Trump.

My position, btw, is not that they shouldn't say anything about Pence, just as I think Democrats should feel free to attack Paul Ryan or Olympia Snowe or whatever. But there is a triage when it comes to who you try to welcome into the tent, and who you declare war on.

metalslimer said:
Trying to frame Pence as an OK guy is a terrible idea. He honestly might be nicer about it but a lot of his ideas are even more terrifying than Trump. Pence needs to be dragged on all the horrific shit he has done. This entire ticket needs to look like the looney mix of bad ideas and independents cannot be comfortable supporting any part of this ticket.
Click to expand...

Campaigns play to win, not to be self-righteous about how the other guy is evil. They should attack Pence if they figure that strategically it's worth doing so, and not if they figure it isn't. No one has ever campaigned by loudly and repeatedly listing their beliefs. Affect and compromise have always been a part of campaigning. The question is who, in addition to reliable Democrats, can form a winning coalition by their presence or absence at the ballot box. The conventional wisdom is that mobilizing or demobilizing voters (getting them to vote or stay home) is easier than persuading voters. A paper published this year actually argues that over half the movement in polls during an election are not anyone changing their minds, but marginal supporters dropping in and out of likely voter screens due to intent to vote shifting. I am inclined to believe that, personally. If 10-20% of the population was actually swinging back and forth between D and R candidates multiple times in the campaign, we'd know far more people who do so.
 
S

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
Good Job Bob said:
Yikes. The constant appraising of "normal" Republicans and effort to expunge the GOP of any guilt in creating the monster that is Trump has been one of the worst parts of this campaign. It doesn't seem to sway Republican voters, and it probably depresses the enthusiasm of Dem voters.
Click to expand...

These seem like claims like "If Bernie Doesn't Drop Out This Instant Trump Will Permanently Win And Actually We've Already Lost Because Bernie Is Mean To The DNC!!!!!" -- I guess pluasible, but not actually backed up by evidence and mostly the product of personal anxiety about the state of the race and the nation. I absolutely expect that the skillful campaign Hillary ran from June to the post-convention helped encourage soft-Republicans to abstain and built up good-will from Independents. And we've already seen that to the extent that there are a category of voters (say, the unexpected Johnson numbers) who are depressed about Hillary but won't vote for Trump, it seems these voters are motivated by a strong devotion to sincerity--in other words, that I think they have written Hillary off irreperably. Most of them also won't vote.

Plenty of Democratic candidates are going to come out and say "I'm a progressive, and I believe we are a country of progressives." No Democratic candidate is going to come out and say "I'm a progressive, and fuck Republicans, they're evil and I hate them." If you're hoping for the latter, I'm sorry but you're being myopic.

Only the Democrats would so expertly fumble at a golden opportunity to tarnish their political rivals name for a generation. There isn't a chance in hell the GOP would have been so kind had the Dems nominated the left wing equivalent of Trump.
Click to expand...

I think directly appealing to brinksmanship is pretty immature. It's a bad thing that Republicans immediately responded to Obama by blocking everything he did and saying they'll spend all their capital blowing up government and making him a one term politician. But they did it because they cultivated the idea that they were right, Democrats were wrong, and winning was the most important thing. If they had adopted a flexible approach, the country would have benefitted substantially from it. I am to your left politically, I am not saying this because I believe in some third way shit. I am saying this because at some point the rubber needs to hit the road to govern, and whether it's in campaigns or governing a recognition that we can disagree, even strenuously, and view many of the other side's ideas as odious, but in the end we need to work together. Trump's rise is a product of Republicans cultivating a view in their base that you need to either fall in lockstep with policy ideas or you should be obliterated. The reason "cuckservative" took off, the reason the tea party took off, is because an increasing number of people think "No Compromises" is a good way to run the country. I disagree. Parties should capitalize on victories, but capitalizing on victories is still possible within magnanimity and extending a hand to work with others.

Obama's approach to dealing with the GOP has been the correct one. Offer an olive branch, work with them, and if you exhaust all other options, do what you can to make progress regardless, but always make it easier for them to work with you and against you. That the GOP appreciate this doesn't make Obama wrong for doing it.

Also I reject the idea that there is a "left wing equivalent of Trump", unless you mean some idiot playing hacky sack outside the student commons at Berkeley.
 
D

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
I think the #1 thing I want from this is Pence to be asked about not pardoning an innocent man. Absolutely appalling that a man who was railroaded by the system is told by the Governor to go through the system for his vindication because he can't be bothered to sign a piece of paper.
 
B

Brawly Likes to Brawl

Member
DrForester said:
I think the #1 thing I want from this is Pence to be asked about not pardoning an innocent man. Absolutely appalling that a man who was railroaded by the system is told by the Governor to go through the system for his vindication because he can't be bothered to sign a piece of paper.
Click to expand...

I have faith that Kaine will do a good job, but he REALLY needs to bring this up.
 
M

metalslimer

Member
Stumpokapow said:
Campaigns play to win, not to be self-righteous about how the other guy is evil. They should attack Pence if they figure that strategically it's worth doing so, and not if they figure it isn't. No one has ever campaigned by loudly and repeatedly listing their beliefs. Affect and compromise have always been a part of campaigning. The question is who, in addition to reliable Democrats, can form a winning coalition by their presence or absence at the ballot box. The conventional wisdom is that mobilizing or demobilizing voters (getting them to vote or stay home) is easier than persuading voters. A paper published this year actually argues that over half the movement in polls during an election are not anyone changing their minds, but marginal supporters dropping in and out of likely voter screens due to intent to vote shifting. I am inclined to believe that, personally. If 10-20% of the population was actually swinging back and forth between D and R candidates multiple times in the campaign, we'd know far more people who do so.
Click to expand...

Sure but I don't think that going hard after Pence's brand of conservatism hurts the outreach that Clinton has been trying to do. I suppose trying to force evangelicals to stay home might be an effective strategy up and down the ticket though.
 
B

BreezyLimbo

Banned
NBC is uh, playing video roll of them interviewing college students

The people talking about supporting Trump

Are very, very stupid. Very stupid. One of the college kids is a Business major, and supports Trump...because...she sees where he's coming from.

These people should be stripped of voting rights.
 
R

Rayis

Member
ughhh, the young people on the MSNBC stream being interviewed on the candidates and who they're voting for, cringe and misinformation abound.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Why helping people is pointless
Opinion Drama 2
89
10K
Foamy replied
February 16th is a Big Day for Nintendo Fans - MK9 And Nintendo Switch 2 Info (Leaks)
2 3 4 5 6
281
25K
StateofMajora replied
My Favorite Theater Experiences (And Yours, Too!)
Social Opinion Community
38
5K
Sidney Prescott replied
Big Business and Government: Grand conspiracy or ramblings of a mad man?
3
2K
Soodanim replied
[Atlantic] America Has a Drinking Problem
2 3
149
21K
Hawking Radiation replied
Top Bottom