Used market cost Heavy Rain 1m sales

SmokyDave said:
Dude, shops selling second-hand goods is far from unheard of.

Hell, there was a couple of second-hand games shops in my area back in the mid 80's. I used to trade my Master System and C64 games there. The business may be bigger nowadays but that's a reflection of the industry, not the act of selling games second hand.
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thats specialist retailers.

not mainstream big box stores.

And no its not a reflection of the size of the industry. You dont see big box stores selling used grill, dvds or books.

Problem here is clearly something else. And i agree with the quaintic dude. Its price. New games are too expensive and thats why they have a resale value.

If they where priced correctly. No one would buy a used game instead of a new.
 
Teknopathetic said:
More like 1 million people who didn't think your game was worth keeping and 1 million people who didn't think your game was worth buying new.
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I know I am not supposed to say it, but damn if this is not the gods honest truuuuth.
 
Shadow of the BEAST said:
thats specialist retailers.

not mainstream big box stores.
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Well the big stores have been doing trades / used games since at least the Megadrive era here in England. It really isn't anything new, just more prominent.
 
SmokyDave said:
Dude, shops selling second-hand goods is far from unheard of.

Hell, there was a couple of second-hand games shops in my area back in the mid 80's. I used to trade my Master System and C64 games there. The business may be bigger nowadays but that's a reflection of the industry, not the act of selling games second hand.
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Sure, I used to sell my old Genesis games back in the day, but the difference is that, in those second hand shops, I used to get 1/3 of my money, if lucky. Nowadays, I can get a game on amazon for $40 to $50 (including the preorder money or sale price), then sell it back to amazon for $30-$35. It's just crazy. Buying and selling used games is just infinitely more common nowadays thanks to Ebay & gamestop.
 
Shadow of the BEAST said:
Its funny that so many cant see the other side at all.

The problem here isnt that people lend their games, sell their games on ebay or give them away.

The problem here is that it has become an whole industry. I mean as i understand in the usa, walmart and according to this thread best buy are selling used games.

Thats crazy, its like lidl or mediamarkt or whatever started selling used goods. Its fucking unheard of.

Clearly something is wrong here. And i actually agree with guillame that it is price that is the problem.

Btw im 100% pro physical copy and i hate the current dlc trend.
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i fail to see the evidence that suggests that video game sales are unduly suffering as a result of this.

the problem isn't that game sales are failing, and that people are looking for an explanation why. the problem is that developers and publishers are seeing other people making lots of money on their games and its making them jealous.

there's no smoke that i'm aware of.
 
jorma said:
Why the hyperbole? Does not 2 million copies sold actually prove that single player experiences are perfectly viable?
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Not sure about single-player experiences, but this game's sales does demonstrate the viability of no-player experiences for sure.
 
Billychu said:
Wall Mart and Best Buy don't sell used games.
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Best Buy does and Wal-Mart was testing it. BB may not have rolled it out everywhere.

Regardless, the law says its legal. It's the First Sale Doctrine that protects it. The games industry is unlikely to ever overturn the doctrine of first sale, so they either deal with it or... deal with it.

Every other industry that wants to sell physical goods in this country abides by the same law. Fucking video games aren't exempt.
 
Stealth Heavy Rain hate thread? Fun.


I don't think he lost 1 million sales due to the second hand market, but I think it's naive to think that the second hand market isn't affecting some developer's bottom line.

I do agree that publishers and retailers need to re-evaluate the price of games, because they are a bit too expensive.

I've passed on a lot of full price games, simply because $60 is a lot to drop on gaming. Most of the time, I'm spending $120 (USD), because I often have to buy two copies of the game (one for me, and one for my wife if we want to play together online, since couch co-op is apparently a horrible thing nowadays).

I like the $39.99 price of the HD collections, and wouldn't mind if newer releases didn't adopt a $49.99 USD price in stores, and a $39.99-$44.99 USD price for digital download (not including any promotions/discounts services like XBLM or PS Plus or Steam may give you)

I think $59.99 USD is just too damn much for games these days, especially with the average age of gamers being in the 30's, and their families are expanding (wives, husbands, kids), so gaming is only getting more expensive for us older gamers.

And I loved Heavy Rain. So there.
 
Smision said:
they do now. Best buy in particular has been promoting it's trade-in program this year. lots of crazy/exploitable deals if you check CAG
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Weird. I've never seen anything like that at my Best Buy.
 
Metal Gear?! said:
It seems like "Used Video Games: The New Software Piracy" needs to be reposted again
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Excellent article, he ends with a bang, I loved it.

But we’ll see. If publishers are successful in banning the resale of used video games (or getting a cut of the profits), then I guess the Internet Nerd Rage Bible demands I have to get back at them. Those games beholden to a sixty-dollar price point? I guess I’ll have to start downloading them off of the internet.

You know, software piracy. The old “used video games”.
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The Faceless Master said:
i can't wait for them to get rid of the retail middleman so they can offer us lower prices while still making more money because of an increased slice of the pie for them!
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Yup, until they pass the retailer cost savings onto consumers, I will ignore this kind of talk from them.
 
I find it embarrassing that someone working in the videogame industry can be so horribly bad at such simple math.

Question: If 2 million copies of Game X were sold, and 3 million people played Game X, how many copies of Game X were not paid for?

Answer: None.
 
acidspunk said:
His concern should be that one million buyers decided his game was not worth keeping.
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I think it's more likely the 1 million copies would not have been bought in the first place if the secondary market or the ability to lend games did not exist.
 
RedSwirl said:
For some reason developers have been allowed to lower prices for digital games in Japan, but nowhere else in the world. That goes without mentioning movie, CD, and book prices on iTunes. Why the hell is that?
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You mean they're not allowed to lower them in other countries?

(I live in Japan, BTW.)

Japan has its own consumer-rights problems, though. For example, it's impossible to rent a game here. The big companies even tried to follow that up with an attempt to make all used game sales illegal, and printed scary (but legally toothless) "NO RESALE" logos on the backs of PS1 CD cases.

Thanks to the lack of rentals, there's no way to know if you're going to like a game unless you buy it. So the used market has even more volume than it does in the US -- people will buy games, try them, not enjoy them, and sell them off immediately. Effectively you're "renting" the game for the difference in purchase price and selling price, only you have to do all the legwork of finding a buyer.
 
SmokyDave said:
When Hitchcock did it, it might have been a MacGuffin. What we had in Heavy Rain was, I believe, a 'fuckup'.

I can't believe that's his actual explanation. I think I'd have been happier if he'd said "Oh shit, that thing! Oh, yeah, we totally forgot to tie up that loose end. Sorry!".
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Well the real explanation is that the original explanation,
Ethan forged a psychic link with Shelby because Shelby was there when he and Jason got hit by the car(because car accidents can totally do that)
, was in itself a massive plothole that they decided to cut out.
 
Oh_look__it_s_THIS_thread_again-1.jpg



some responses here, by God
 
Shadow of the Beast said:
If they where priced correctly. No one would buy a used game instead of a new.
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But because of their initial greed the used game market will always exist. If new games cost $20, used will cost $17. Because customers have felt ripped off, they will constantly look for the cheaper option, that is now widely available thanks to the initial greed of those who price the games.

$60 games were the problem, but cheaper games will no longer solve that problem.
 
hamchan said:
I think it's more likely the 1 million copies would not have been bought in the first place if the secondary market or the ability to lend games did not exist.
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For a single player game light on replayability, you're probably correct. Crazy.

Fimbulvetr said:
Well the real explanation is that the original explanation,
Ethan forged a psychic link with Shelby because Shelby was there when he and Jason got hit by the car(because car accidents can totally do that)
, was in itself a massive plothole that they decided to cut out.
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Oh god. I almost wish I hadn't asked now. I loved Heavy Rain but the story / plot really doesn't hold up if you stop and think about it.
 
ThoseDeafMutes said:
With Steam it works because there's competition and aggressive sales but on the closed ecosystem of consoles, DD is probably going to be 50/60USD for new releases for a long time.
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Anyone that wants to see consoles go all dd is out of their mind. The prices on "On Demand" games right now are almost always well above what games can be had for in retail. It's an even bigger price gap if you go used.
With retail the weaker games are weeded out, and drop in price to make room for the newer titles. With DD, games can sit and languish for years with no price drop.
Not good.
 
hamchan said:
I think it's more likely the 1 million copies would not have been bought in the first place if the secondary market or the ability to lend games did not exist.
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I think it's MORE likely that you would see some shrinkage but there would be plenty of people who would have bought the title at retail.

Also Heavy Rain is awesome. Haters gonna hate.
 
I bought HR used because I got it significantly cheaper at the time (I think 20) and I didnt want to spend 50 euro on some crazy game I wouldn't know if I would like.



That being said I am day 1 for there next game.
 
retroBrand said:
But because of their initial greed the used game market will always exist. If new games cost $20, used will cost $17. Because customers have felt ripped off, they will constantly look for the cheaper option, that is now widely available thanks to the initial greed of those who price the games.

$60 games were the problem, but cheaper games will no longer solve that problem.
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so why arent we seeing a big used market with dvds.
 
Shadow of the BEAST said:
thats specialist retailers.

not mainstream big box stores.

And no its not a reflection of the size of the industry. You dont see big box stores selling used grill, dvds or books.

Problem here is clearly something else. And i agree with the quaintic dude. Its price. New games are too expensive and thats why they have a resale value.

If they where priced correctly. No one would buy a used game instead of a new.
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You really believe that? Back when PSX games were 39.99 there were still people going to Gamestop buying it for 34.99
 
squidyj said:
I think it's MORE likely that you would see some shrinkage but there would be plenty of people who would have bought the title at retail.

Also Heavy Rain is awesome. Haters gonna hate.
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Sure there would still be people, just a lot less because without the secondary market the risk of buying a new game and it being crap is a lot higher. Secondary market leads to primary market sales, basic knowledge here. It especially affects short, single player games like this one. I know I wouldn't have bought the game at launch if I couldn't lend it to all of my friends and then ultimately sell it off.

Also fuck your "haters gonna hate".
 
Kum0 said:
Oh no you didn't!

We love Fondaumiere, he speaks his mind. Up front, non edited, without PR consent!

Although he is going a bit overboard (Justifiably in my opinion) the industry needs to take notice of the amount lost by second hand trade and and the HUGH cost to the consumer per title.

Before the economic collapse and an increased VAT rate (in UK) I would frown at those who kept lending copies because each copy sold does make a difference especially to a smaller developer.

However today with the cost of games, the amount of titles that come out within the same period the only way to help promote and experience titles we love is via the second hand market and lending games.

This month alone has:

Deus Ex (40)
Driver San Fran (40)
Resistance 3 (40)
Dead Island (40)
El Shaddai (40)
Gears of War 3 (40)

Total: 240 JUST on games! I cant afford that along with life costs! The only way for me to do it, is trading in games and lending titles.

Plus it's only September! Let's not forget how costly November will be, along with whatever DLC is in the pipeline.
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Your whole post better be sarcasm, especially the bolded. If not... have some self control and learn to exercise some damn patience.
 
Why is everyone so upset over the "me"s and "my"s? Does anyone know the history of Quantic Dream? Did he spend all his own money to create it, to hire people, taking out loans he couldn't afford because he had a goal of owning and operating a studio that followed his vision? Is he still the far-majority holder in the company?

Or is it everyone's just so used to the PR-talk of a person saying "no no, it's a team effort" all the time, as if the studio-head doesn't call the shots on his/her own if they want to?
 
The Praiseworthy said:
Heavy Rain was pure epic... I don't understand why it's so cool to hate it now?

And thank god I never buys a used games.
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I loved Heavy Rain too, but I somewhat get the hate, the game isn't for everybody. Plus for a game that relied so heavily on story, the voice acting was HORRENDOUS!
 
ShinUltramanJ said:
With DD, games can sit and languish for years with no price drop.
Not good.
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PS3 Fatal Inertia from 2008: still $29.99

...and that comes with no rights to resell it if you don't like it...

...and it's under $5 used for Xbox...

...and the only way to obtain it, since there was never a disc...

...and it's more than Wipeout HD despite not being as good...

*cries*
 
First, this is a ridiculous assertion by that developer. A large but undetermined quantity of those 1M folks wouldn't have played the game at all if it weren't for steep discounts or accessing it for free (lending to friends, multiple accounts in same household, etc).

Second, it's not just about the $60 retail price. Even if games were $30, if I can save $10 by buying a used version, I'm going to do that.
 
Zaptruder said:
ITT: Neogaffers claw wildly at the proverbial face of another developer who speaks out against the used game market.


My take: Whether the developers are right or wrong on the subject, you're already seeing economic pressure towards developers to shaft the used games market, be it the use of single use codes or an increased emphasis on digital distribution. This pressure will simply continue to grow, until we reach the point where the physical games market is deprecated and the issue of used games and the brick and mortar stores that carry them, brushed aside into niches - as the market's ability to economically support the large gaming chains of today continue to dry up.
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And then they'll start to complain about the cost of digital distribution and it's not fair to pay $60 and play MP for more than 6 months because of the reoccuring cost of maintaining servers that use your bandwidth. A new tier model will start where you pay $60 for the game (SP only) and $15/mo for MP access.
 
hamchan said:
Sure there would still be people, just a lot less because without the secondary market the risk of buying a new game and it being crap is a lot higher. Secondary market leads to primary market sales, basic knowledge here. It especially affects short, single player games like this one. I know I wouldn't have bought the game at launch if I couldn't lend it to all of my friends and then ultimately sell it off.

Also fuck your "haters gonna hate".
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What can I say? Haters gonna Hate.
 
bdizzle said:
And then they'll start to complain about the cost of digital distribution and it's not fair to pay $60 and play MP for more than 6 months because of the reoccuring cost of maintaining servers that use your bandwidth. A new tier model will start where you pay $60 for the game (SP only) and $15/mo for MP access.
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Yeah... that's totally the trend. Not free-to-play, including huge, costly MMOs...
 
I bought Heavy Rain day one and I'm so glad I did. I've recently let go of 30+ PS3 games because I didn't play them anymore. The only ones I kept were Uncharted 1/2, MGS4, Yakuza 3 and Heavy Rain.

I just love the atmosphere and environments so damn much in Heavy Rain more so than the story or characters (even though I liked them as well even with the plot holes and nonsensical stuff). I love that type of gameplay as well and I can't wait to see Quantic Dreams next game.
 
tzare said:
the problem is that used means nothing for the developer. I am against this. Once used means a % goes to them i am for it. It is really simple.
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Are you against all used markets, or just the used market the video game industry told you was bad and evil?
 
Angry Fork said:
I bought Heavy Rain day one and I'm so glad I did. I've recently let go of 30+ PS3 games because I didn't play them anymore. The only ones I kept were Uncharted 1/2, MGS4, Yakuza 3 and Heavy Rain.

I just love the atmosphere and environments so damn much in Heavy Rain more so than the story or characters (even though I liked them as well even with the plot holes and nonsensical stuff). I love that type of gameplay as well and I can't wait to see Quantic Dreams next game.
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You monster!
 
who cares. Exhaustion of goods means the original producer can't control those goods when they are in the stream of commerce. Maybe this sucks for a little art house video-game developer, but in the long run the principal is good for consumers because it prevents big players from controlling the distribution of goods that they no longer own.
 
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