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[Zen]

???

What is there not to get?

The PS2 was a really good improvement over the PS1 but was weaker than its main competitors, the Xbox and GC.

The next Xbox will be a really good improvement over the Xbox 360 but it seems like it may be weaker than its main competitor, the PS4.

If MS is trying to go for a "modern PS2 plan", having an attractive system to various demographics with a good price point -- therefore causing the system to have a ton of support, then I don't view that as a bad thing at all.

The reason why the PS2 held up well (as you said) was simply because of the great support it had.

It also had a complete stranglehold on the market flowing over from the PS1 dominating the N64. I don't think that the next Xbox would enjoy any greater or lesser support based on a PS2 strategy. What made the PS2 so supported wasn't specs, it was a bitch to program for.

The next Xbox won't get more support really, since all third parties will be treating both machines as having one render target.

 

[CLEEK]

I'm still failing to see how the ps4 is super duper more powerful than the x720 which most people are saying ( mainly Sony fan boys). When developers are saying its very similar the only advantage I see is ps4 has a little more power in its gpu.

Well, GPUs are pretty important in games consoles!

The fact that the leaks show the PS4 have 50% more FLOPs and double the ROPs are not trivial things. The only area where the next Xbox has better specs is in the RAM amount, and then then general consensus is 4GB or fast bandwidth RAM is far better than 8GB (well, 5GB after OS footprint) of slow RAM.

While I'm inclined to believe the murmurs that the difference between consoles is not huge, just by looking at the specs it's hard to see how this is the case.

 

[Reiko]

Your post didn't really have any relevance to the point I was making. But even if it did, what you said was entirely subjective. To me God of War 2 & GT4 was some of the most impressive looking games that gen.

As a owner of both they looked great for something running on PS2 hardware. But compare both of those titles graphically to Ninja Gaiden Black or Rallisport Challenge 2.

 

[Margalis]

Eh - fuck redundancy. There are so many devices that do "everything" - we dont need another. I want a gaming device, personally. I'm quite tired of everything doing everything. We have enough of that - I want something unique - an actual games console that is what it is above all else.

If nobody offers Netflix Instant and you offer Netflix Instant that's a tremendous competitive advantage.

If everybody offers Netflix Instant also offering it is no advantage, and not offering it is not a serious disadvantage.

This is why I don't get why people say that next gen will be about "services." There are only a few services that really matter and everybody offers them. My Macbook, my PC, my Wii U, my Wii and my 360 all offer Netflix. Whether or not Durango offers Netflix is totally irrelevant to me.

And I suspect for most people having a tablet that does everything is much more valuable than a set-top box that does everything.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

???

What is there not to get?

The PS2 was a really good improvement over the PS1 but was weaker than its main competitors, the Xbox and GC.

The next Xbox will be a really good improvement over the Xbox 360 but it seems like it may be weaker than its main competitor, the PS4.

If MS is trying to go for a "modern PS2 plan", having an attractive system to various demographics with a good price point -- therefore causing the system to have a ton of support, then I don't view that as a bad thing at all.

The reason why the PS2 held up well (as you said) was simply because of the great support it had.

This is where people are making a big mistake when trying to look at this on a macro level.

The "main competitor" for this Xbox isn't going to be from Nintendo or Sony. It's pretty obvious from the strategy being employed here that this is all about fending off iOS and Android (and iTunes and Google and Amazon's stores) from the living room, waaaaaaay more than anything Sony is doing. Ask any Microsoft shareholder what the biggest consumer market threats to Microsoft are...nobody will even mention Playstation.

 

[Uno Venova]

Yeah but dates had nothing to do with the comparison I made. I was simply using examples of the positives and negatives of the systems in that gen to how things look like they will be in this upcoming gen; saying how things may match in similar ways.

The PS4 releasing around the same time as the next Xbox can definitely change some things a bit but if the next Xbox has...

* Games that are big improvements from what was on the Xbox 360
* Multiplatform games that don't look any different from how they look on the PS4
* Impressive exclusive games
* (And) a cheaper price than the PS4 due to it being less powerful

...then I (again) think it will be in a spot similar to the PS2 -- less powerful than the main competition, more attractive to consumers (due to price) which can lead to better sales which will more than likely cause better support.

So here, it looks like the only point that won't be also offered by the PS4 is the price. And if it is like a PS2 approach multiplatform games did end up looking better on the Xbox.

 

[lowrider007]

Eh - fuck redundancy. There are so many devices that do "everything" - we dont need another. I want a gaming device, personally. I'm quite tired of everything doing everything. We have enough of that - I want something unique - an actual games console that is what it is above all else.

I agree to certain extent but at the same time I find it funny that not so long ago games consoles where just that, and many people longed for them to be the media hub of the living room, look how popular it was to mod the original xbox to be a media centre, and now our consoles are doing "everything" there seems to be a subset of enthusiasts (myself included) that want "just a games console" again.

 

[samus4ever]

I'm still failing to see how the ps4 is super duper more powerful than the x720 which most people are saying ( mainly Sony fan boys). When developers are saying its very similar the only advantage I see is ps4 has a little more power in its gpu.

It's literally the same stuff we heard back in 2005. PS3 much more powerful and Xbox 1.5.

 

[Mrbob]

I understand what you said in terms of dates, but again... I never brought dates into this.

If the next Xbox is cheaper than the PS4 (due to it being less powerful) and gets more sales due to the fact, then the next Xbox will more than likely get more support.

I don't know if I'm not being that clear with what I'm saying or not, since I'm surprised that some of you aren't seeing where I'm coming from.

Unless hardware sales are drastically higher, it will not. Look at the two systems. They are extremely similar. This makes the porting process simple.

For the sake of argument, let us say the next Xbox has 110 million sold, and Playstation is around 75 million. This is still too big of a user base to ignore. Sure, the games will sell better on the next xbox. But there will be a big enough user base to justify selling the game on the next Playstation as well.

You need to be projecting complete domination (140 million next xbox, 30 million next playstation) for your scenario to play out.

 

[Four_Chamber]

These threads are fun to read through. Most folks here are assuming there is a shred of truth to the information coming from this website that nobody had heard of before last month. Hey, but to each his own.

My .02- I really doubt Microsoft, with their extremely close relationship with Epic and Crytek, will disappoint in the power category. Microsoft has made huge leaps with the Xbox and 360 and I doubt they'll suddenly pare it down. That being said, profitability is a worthy target- in this world of market contraction, its nonsensical to price yourself out of the game. If they can make a $300 next-gen console, they'll be sitting pretty.

Plus, all of this hardware dominance doesn't mean crap in the big scheme of things. In the market I know (the US), the superiority of the Xbox over the Wii didn't mean squat. Similarly, the perceived superiority of the PS3 over the 360 has only led to the 360 outselling the PS3 by nearly 1 million units in the last two months.

 

[onQ123]

if Kinect 2 menages to make Xbox 3 the iPad of the Living Room it's still going to sell boatloads with no problem.

 

[teh_pwn]

It's literally the same stuff we heard back in 2005. PS3 much more powerful and Xbox 1.5.

Not the same at all. We're comparing GPU specs. PS3 was all hot air about super power Cell that was absurdly difficult to use, and PS3 had a split RAM pool.

PS4 has unified GDDR5 and a stronger GPU if we believe these rumors are true. I don't know how you can imply anything else.

 

[Bgamer90]

So here, it looks like the only point that won't be also offered by the PS4 is the price. And if it is like a PS2 approach multiplatform games did end up looking better on the Xbox.

Multiplatform games did end up looking better on the Xbox, but the PS2 was still viewed as being better when it came to multiplaform games overall due to things like controls and online play (e.g.: EA games were online on the PS2; they weren't on the Xbox until really late into the gen).

I can see the same being the case with the next Xbox/PS4... PS4 having slightly better looking multiplatform games (that may not be that noticeable to most) though the next Xbox having better online features/services for the games.

We'll see.

 

[QaaQer]

If the next Xbox is cheaper than the PS4 (due to it being less powerful) and gets more sales due to the fact, then the next Xbox will more than likely get more support.

Just like the wii last gen.

 

[CLEEK]

If nobody offers Netflix Instant and you offer Netflix Instant that's a tremendous competitive advantage.

If everybody offers Netflix Instant also offering it is no advantage, and not offering it is not a serious disadvantage.

This is why I don't get why people say that next gen will be about "services." There are only a few services that really matter and everybody offers them. My Macbook, my PC, my Wii U, my Wii and my 360 all offer Netflix. Whether or not Durango offers Netflix is totally irrelevant to me.

And I suspect for most people having a tablet that does everything is much more valuable than a set-top box that does everything.

You're forgetting that both Sony and MS will use their consoles as portals to their own first party services. Services that have enormous potential for generating revenue. Services that will lock users into their ecosystem. If you have a SEN account and buy/rent movies/TV shows/games, you're more likely to buy other Sony goods. Same with MS and their Live offering. If you have a load of MS bought content, you're more inclined to buy into Windows (8, Phone, Surface etc) devices.

 

[JJD]

As a owner of both they looked great for something running on PS2 hardware. But compare both of those titles graphically to Ninja Gaiden Black or Rallisport Challenge 2.

This post has really nothing to do with what he was trying to say:

This is some revisionist history. The ps2 was a huge leap that was marketed on power. It simply was less powerful than it's main competitors because of time. it launched 18 months before. It's not comparable to the situation today with both consoles being designed and released at the same time. There is no "modern ps2 plan."

He is not wrong.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

This is where people are making a big mistake when trying to look at this on a macro level.

The "main competitor" for this Xbox isn't going to be from Nintendo or Sony. It's pretty obvious from the strategy being employed here that this is all about fending off iOS and Android (and iTunes and Google and Amazon's stores) from the living room, waaaaaaay more than anything Sony is doing. Ask any Microsoft shareholder what the biggest consumer market threats to Microsoft are...nobody will even mention Playstation.

I think if anything the gaming market is a distraction to MS right now, the mobile OS market cannibalizing their market and threatening their bread and butter, the whole iPad/iPhone/android thing is seriously messing up their plan, it's surprising how fast the whole PC landscape has changed, what was once an unshakeable monopoly is rapidly becoming outdated.

 

[Zeal]

This thread will end when the E3 Halo 5 CG trailer is shown.

........Until you realize it isn't CG.

 

[Zen]

Just like the wii last gen.

Yeah, and with the shared ecosystem Durango/Orbis, there's not going to be any meaningful larger support for one over the other.

 

[FuturusX]

if Kinect 2 menages to make Xbox 3 the iPad of the Living Room it's still going to sell boatloads with no problem.

Why would any gamer care about that?

The point of this thread it seems it so discuss the relative ability of the next XBOX to deliver games of the highest visual quality in terms of GPU power.

Not to attack you directly, but sales has nothing to do with this right?

 

[Reiko]

This post has really nothing to do with what he was trying to say:



He is not wrong.

There were things I did not like about the PS2 from launch which stuck around to it's last legs.

Small 480p support. Terrible IQ. Bad textures for 98% of the games in the collection.

But hey... I love my PS2... But to each their own.

 

[artist]

I'm not seeing a major power difference here it seems like sony fan boys are overreacting. They still haven't explained the move engines yet either so I would calm down before spouting random bullshit.

Are all Sony fanboys this dumb as much as you want to believe ps4 is about equal to the 720. But that won't stop Sony fan boys though.

I'm still failing to see how the ps4 is super duper more powerful than the x720 which most people are saying ( mainly Sony fan boys). When developers are saying its very similar the only advantage I see is ps4 has a little more power in its gpu.

I <3 next-gen wars.

 

[CLEEK]

Why would any gamer care about that?

The point of this thread it seems it so discuss the relative ability of the next XBOX to deliver games of the highest visual quality in terms of GPU power.

Not to attack you directly, but sales has nothing to do with this right?

Because bigger market share = more 3rd party support = Xbox as 3rd party lead platform = better quality 3rd party Xbox games.

 

[Bgamer90]

Unless hardware sales are drastically higher, it will not. Look at the two systems. They are extremely similar. This makes the porting process simple.

For the sake of argument, let us say the next Xbox has 110 million sold, and Playstation is around 75 million. This is still too big of a user base to ignore. Sure, the games will sell better on the next xbox. But there will be a big enough user base to justify selling the game on the next Playstation as well.

You need to be projecting complete domination (140 million next xbox, 30 million next playstation) for your scenario to play out.

Are you bringing online services into this though?

If one system is selling better than the other by only ~30 million (as you said) but yet has more attractive online services/features, then those two things combined will possibly cause many devs to give exclusive support to one over the other.

Online services/features are going to mean a lot next gen. I think some aren't putting that into consideration.

 

[Sydle]

This is where people are making a big mistake when trying to look at this on a macro level.

The "main competitor" for this Xbox isn't going to be from Nintendo or Sony. It's pretty obvious from the strategy being employed here that this is all about fending off iOS and Android (and iTunes and Google and Amazon's stores) from the living room, waaaaaaay more than anything Sony is doing. Ask any Microsoft shareholder what the biggest consumer market threats to Microsoft are...nobody will even mention Playstation.

You are so smart.

 

[QaaQer]

Yeah, and with the shared ecosystem Durango/Orbis, there's not going to be any meaningful larger support for one over the other.

thats what I'm hoping for.

 

[malyce]

This is where people are making a big mistake when trying to look at this on a macro level.

The "main competitor" for this Xbox isn't going to be from Nintendo or Sony. It's pretty obvious from the strategy being employed here that this is all about fending off iOS and Android (and iTunes and Google and Amazon's stores) from the living room, waaaaaaay more than anything Sony is doing. Ask any Microsoft shareholder what the biggest consumer market threats to Microsoft are...nobody will even mention Playstation.

Consoles don't sell fast enough to become a legit threat to Apple or Google in the living room space. Apple moves more $500 devices(not including iPhones)in a quarter than MS+Sony combined will move in their first year on the market. Not to mention they would have to offer something truly unique over other set top boxes to be a formidable foe. MS's sudden ecosystem unification lunge is cute but they're not in the same league as Apple and that's besides their issue with the dozens of people that own windows phone.

 

[FuturusX]

Because bigger market share = more 3rd party support = Xbox as 3rd party lead platform = better quality 3rd party Xbox games.

Indeed, but hardware limitations won't be magically bridged just because the machine sells more. Design decisions set now will influence the kinds of games you see over the life of the console.

Yes, limits will be pushed and we'll see creative leading edge development break the barriers of what we thought was possible but those will be outliers.

In a discussion regarding graphic power, raw numbers and theoretical capabilities, sales has no bearing.

 

[SlickShoesRUCrazy]

Because bigger market share = more 3rd party support = Xbox as 3rd party lead platform = better quality 3rd party Xbox games.

that's not guaranteed.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

I think if anything the gaming market is a distraction to MS right now, the mobile OS market cannibalizing their market and threatening their bread and butter, the whole iPad/iPhone/android thing is seriously messing up their plan, it's surprising how fast the whole PC landscape has changed, what was once an unshakeable monopoly is rapidly becoming outdated.

Yup. Exactly.

 

[JJD]

There were things I did not like about the PS2 from launch which stuck around to it's last legs.

Small 480p support. Terrible IQ. Bad textures for 98% of the games in the collection.

But hey... I love my PS2... But to each their own.

So???

You're not making sense.

They were discussing launch strategies. The other guy was making a case about MS trying to emulate Sony PS2 strategy. Glorified G disagreed. This was the main point of their argument.

You said that the PS2 had launch hyperbole while the Xbox "delivered". Huh? So fucking what? That's not pertinent at all to what they were discussing.

 

[Vamphuntr]

This is where people are making a big mistake when trying to look at this on a macro level.

The "main competitor" for this Xbox isn't going to be from Nintendo or Sony. It's pretty obvious from the strategy being employed here that this is all about fending off iOS and Android (and iTunes and Google and Amazon's stores) from the living room, waaaaaaay more than anything Sony is doing. Ask any Microsoft shareholder what the biggest consumer market threats to Microsoft are...nobody will even mention Playstation.

I don't think trying to compete with iOS by offering 60-70$ games is feasible. And their shareholders already saw what happened when they tried to counter the iPod with Zune .

 

[Zen]

Are you bringing online services into this though?

If one system is selling better than the other by only ~30 million (as you said) but yet has more attractive online services/features, then those two things combined will possibly cause many devs to give exclusive support to one over the other.

No it won't. What 'better online services' are we envisioning here? Something to make up for cutting out 40-50% of potential customers? Because anything that convinces a company to give exclusive support would have to involve money and paid for by Microsoft.

This strikes me as incredible wishful thinking based off of an era long past.

 

[Punkster_NY]

PS4 and the Next Next-Gen - SESSLER'S ...SOMETHING
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wAZDHdU0eo

 

[CLEEK]

Indeed, but hardware limitations won't be magically bridged just because the machine sells more. Design decisions set now will influence the kinds of games you see over the life of the console.

Yes, limits will be pushed and we'll see creative leading edge development break the barriers of what we thought was possible but those will be outliers.

In a discussion regarding graphic power, raw numbers and theoretical capabilities, sales has no baring.

But apart from a few cases, the shonky multi-platform ports the PS3 hosted was due to the 360 being the lead platform. 3rd parties didn't make the most of the hardware, meaning the more capable hardware played host to technically poorer games.

So hardware sales will have an impact on the technical quality of games. As it will dictate whether the hardware is pushed or not. If the Xbox has a bunch of novel hardware tricks to make up for discrepancies in pure GPU grunt, like the PS3 now, these will only be utilised by 3rd parties if it is worth their while investing the resources to do so. Market share of a platform having a direct correlation to potential return on investment .

 

[Pristine_Condition]

Consoles don't sell fast enough to become a legit threat to Apple or Google in the living room space. Apple moves more $500 devices(not including iPhones)in a quarter than MS+Sony combined will move in their first year on the market. Not to mention they would have to offer something truly unique over other set top boxes to be a formidable foe. MS's sudden ecosystem unification lunge is cute but they're not in the same league as Apple and that's besides their issue with the dozens of people that own windows phone.

Don't discount Microsoft's plan of trying to get this new box subsidized as a cable box by Cable/Sat TV systems. If they pull that off, over a five yr. cycle they could have not just one, but multiple boxes in millions of homes that would have never considered a console.

I know it's a strategy that we as gamers hate (sacrificing pure gaming power for DVR functionality) but it's a bold strategy that fits with what MS is, and where their goals have always been with the XBox.

 

[ALBOFIGHTER]

The question shouldn't be which console is more powerful because that would insinuate that both consoles are powerful. The question should be which console is shittier cause both consoles are relatively weak. I feel bad for developers who have to squeeze out as much performance as possible to match the current tech demos.

 

[SlickShoesRUCrazy]

I think if anything the gaming market is a distraction to MS right now, the mobile OS market cannibalizing their market and threatening their bread and butter, the whole iPad/iPhone/android thing is seriously messing up their plan, it's surprising how fast the whole PC landscape has changed, what was once an unshakeable monopoly is rapidly becoming outdated.

more reason for them to to releases two different devices. one entry level for general consumers

and a more expensive device aimed at people on forums.

 

[Bgamer90]

No it won't. What 'better online services' are we envisioning here? Something to make up for cutting out 40-50% of potential customers? Because anything that convinces a company to give exclusive support would have to involve money and paid for by Microsoft.

This strikes me as incredible wishful thinking based off of an era long past.

So Xbox Live didn't cause devs to give more and/or simply better support to the Xbox 360 over the PS3 -- especially during the first half of the gen?

If online services caused that back in 2007/2008, then I don't get how one could think that it wouldn't be important in 2014+... especially since more people are playing games online now.

Also, I don't see how my prediction of Xbox Live having a lot of unique online features next gen is that farfetched. MS has always been innovative when it comes to new online features for consoles each gen.

 

[Souther]

I would assume that we won't see another 30% or whatever it was failure rate of 360(How many yrs?) this time around.

 

[Darryl]

Don't discount Microsoft's plan of trying to get this new box subsidized as a cable box by Cable/Sat TV systems. If they pull that off, over a five yr. cycle they could have not just one, but multiple boxes in millions of homes that would have never considered a console.

I know it's a strategy that we as gamers hate (sacrificing pure gaming power for DVR functionality) but it's a bold strategy that fits with what MS is, and where their goals have always been with the XBox.

yea and console sales tend to grow exponentially. if they get this off right and early, it could be devastating.

 

[tinfoilhatman]

more reason for them to to releases two different devices. one entry level for general consumers

and a more expensive device aimed at people on forums.

No, they should release one disk with both a PC(Windows 8) versions and an Xbox version......automatic huge install(sales) base from day 1......I mean hell with all this talk of Windows 8 being on Xbox720 anyways and the specs being less than mind blowing.......

This would make everyone happy

 

[MaulerX]

The question shouldn't be which console is more powerful because that would insinuate that both consoles are powerful. The question should be which console is shittier cause both consoles are relatively weak. I feel bad for developers who have to squeeze out as much performance as possible to match the current tech demos.

Wii U

 

[Mononoke]

Don't discount Microsoft's plan of trying to get this new box subsidized as a cable box by Cable/Sat TV systems. If they pull that off, over a five yr. cycle they could have not just one, but multiple boxes in millions of homes that would have never considered a console.

I know it's a strategy that we as gamers hate (sacrificing pure gaming power for DVR functionality) but it's a bold strategy that fits with what MS is, and where their goals have always been with the XBox.

Bold like Windows 8 + their push into phones?

I've hated everything they've tried to do so far. I'm really worried about this strategy.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

Don't discount Microsoft's plan of trying to get this new box subsidized as a cable box by Cable/Sat TV systems. If they pull that off, over a five yr. cycle they could have not just one, but multiple boxes in millions of homes that would have never considered a console.

I know it's a strategy that we as gamers hate (sacrificing pure gaming power for DVR functionality) but it's a bold strategy that fits with what MS is, and where their goals have always been with the XBox.

But then it requires MS to basically turn themselves into a set-top box company in order to sell services in which case they're competing against the likes of the netflixes of the world and the main cable service providers, which still does not address their OS market dilemma aka "nobody is running for sheriff in their town but somebody else already started a new town and basically everybody is leaving and joining the new town".

 

[teh_pwn]

PS4 and the Next Next-Gen - SESSLER'S ...SOMETHING
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wAZDHdU0eo

I agree with him that I love this part of it.

As an adult, these are the things that give you that Xmas morning sort of feeling:
1. Undressing a girl the first time.
2. A promotion.
3. A raise.
4. Building a new PC.
5. Next gen console announcements.

And I guess new cars, but not my thing.

 

[JJD]

Don't discount Microsoft's plan of trying to get this new box subsidized as a cable box by Cable/Sat TV systems. If they pull that off, over a five yr. cycle they could have not just one, but multiple boxes in millions of homes that would have never considered a console.

I know it's a strategy that we as gamers hate (sacrificing pure gaming power for DVR functionality) but it's a bold strategy that fits with what MS is, and where their goals have always been with the XBox.

I said before on this thread that MS subsidizing plans will work wonders on the US. I really think they're going to do great there. But if they want to be the number one next gen they will have to bring something similar to the EU. And so far Live features on the EU are still far from the standard set on the US.

They are only going to talk about this kind of stuff when they are ready to talk price. I don't think it's going to be when they unveil it in just a few months.

Still turning the 720 into a set top box has implications too, they are already sacrificing power to get there. There's probably going to be others.

 

[Teletraan1]

To what degree does power influence sales? PS3 still hasn't come within striking distance of the Wii.

Price probably has a larger effect on buying decision than console power as the price gets higher and higher. One console launched @$249 and the other launched @$599. You can debate all day that is was a stupid move to launch @$599 but the need to compare these 2 items of wildly different price points for some console war has always seemed childish if you ever took a high school business/econ class.

 

[Xamdou]

Xbox 720 as a Comcast cable box would garner millions of new and existing gamers. Xbox Live Party chat across games is still the main reason why the multi-player experience is better on the Xbox 360 and Xbox 720. The Halo and Gears franchises are easily among the the top two exclusive franchises so it comes to no surprise these will usher in the next generation Xbox 720. To top it off the Xbox 720 will have built in Blu-Ray and Kinect 2.0 out of the box. Sure the GPU may not be close to the PS4 GPU but in terms of third-party games it will be the same but add to that XBL party chat across games.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

Big thread...So what is it compared to the 360? 2x, 3x?