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[WaffleTaco]

I have become much more critical about the show over this season, and there is a reason why. The show has had some amazing highs, however, this season has had the lowest the show has ever had. I do find it odd that people take it rather personally and laugh when the show is analyzed and discussed. The logic of earlier seasons has largely kept this show together and has enabled for big payoffs. However, this season has left logic behind and as a result it has suffered from it. It is natural to be disappointed with a show that once flowed much better.

 

[firelogic]

I'd like an unexpected ending to the series but we'll get a predicatable generic one instead. They'll beat the

Spoiler

Night King. Dany and Aegon will sit on the iron throne together. Cersei will kill herself. Sansa becomes Queen of the North. Arya will be her Hand. Bran will go off somewhere.

 

[Conciliator]

I've never really watched the show, but let's be real...you guys are not going to come on here after the show finale and be like "yes that was great, very nice ending, it all came together perfectly, I'm glad we agree."

cmon bruh. you know that's not what's going to happen.

 

[Hydrus]

I'd like an unexpected ending to the series but we'll get a predicatable generic one instead. They'll beat the

Spoiler

Night King. Dany and Aegon will sit on the iron throne together. Cersei will kill herself. Sansa becomes Queen of the North. Arya will be her Hand. Bran will go off somewhere.

This is what I want tbh. All these characters have all gone thru so much shit this whole series. From being raped ( Dany, Sansa) to being killed ( Jon), to witnessing their dad get his head chopped off and dead brother parading around with his dead wolf's head attached ( Arya). I think that "generic" ending is the bitter sweet ending Martin said the series would get.

 

[TerryLee81]

Btw, what's the latest on the books? Any news about a release?

Is he still writing or is he just busy with the show?

 

[CloudWolf]

The reason I'm so critical of the latest GoT seasons is that I see everything I loved about the show go out of the window. I never watched the show for the spectacle, but for the clever writing, the strong characters, the dialogues, etc. Almost all of this has disappeared. Writing has become sloppy, the interesting characters are all dead or have become stereotypes and the dialogues are too on-the-nose or just vapid exposition.

All the show has really left is spectacle. And sure, spectacle is great and if you watch the show purely for spectacle I can understand why you still love the show. I personally also really liked the Battle of the Bastards even though the writing was sub-par, but it's no longer the show I got to love five years ago.

And to see in threads like this that perfectly valid criticism is being handwaved away as nitpicking is sad. Nitpicking is like saying that Jon Snow's cloak isn't the same as in the books, noting that certain storylines simoly make no sense is not nitpicking.

 

[theignoramus]

That shit ain't hyperbole though. It is exactly the problem with the show. Style over substance, gives you the dopamine hits of battle scenes and dragons and sex in the place of a coherent plot and decent characterization.

It's fine to enjoy a McDonald's burger, and it's fine to enjoy watching GoT on Sundays(I still mostly do, even with all my criticisms), but that doesn't mean you can argue that it is well written television, because it fucking isn't, any more than McDonald's is prime rib.

The most watched episode ever, the season finale, is carried by scenes of dialogue between major characters.There might be 10 whole minutes of stylish action out of the 80 minute runtime. What the hell are you talking about?

 

[CloudWolf]

Btw, what's the latest on the books? Any news about a release?

Is he still writing or is he just busy with the show?

Officially he's still writing Winds of Winter, but the actual status of the book is unknown. At least the released chapters were pretty good.

George RR Martin has next to nothing to do with the show anymore though. I'm pretty sure he's still credited as an executive producer, but he has made it pretty clear he's not involved with the writing or story in any way.

 

[rashbeep]

That shit ain't hyperbole though. It is exactly the problem with the show. Style over substance, gives you the dopamine hits of battle scenes and dragons and sex in the place of a coherent plot and decent characterization.

It's fine to enjoy a McDonald's burger, and it's fine to enjoy watching GoT on Sundays(I still mostly do, even with all my criticisms), but that doesn't mean you can argue that it is well written television, because it fucking isn't, any more than McDonald's is prime rib.

i think a really good example of this was how they ended s7. they had a perfect last sequence

Spoiler

when it snowed in king's landing

, where it would have been unexpected to end the season with a beautiful, understated scene. instead we got the predictable, flashy one with

Spoiler

the NK destroying the wall

.

 

[theignoramus]

i think a really good example of this was how they ended s7. they had a perfect last sequence

Spoiler

when it snowed in king's landing

, where it would have been unexpected to end the season with a beautiful, understated scene. instead we got the predictable, flashy one with

Spoiler

the NK destroying the wall

.

When has GOT ever been about understatement? What was season was that?

 

[RDreamer]

As a current negative Nancy for the show, I thought the finale was decent. Not terribly many complaints there. It's everything that lead up to that finale that was crap. I wonder if people that are down on it are just letting lingering (rightful) hatred of that absolute turdburger episode 6 get in the way. I understand that, though. Just thinking about episode 6 makes me angry at the show.

 

[Surfinn]

That shit ain't hyperbole though. It is exactly the problem with the show. Style over substance, gives you the dopamine hits of battle scenes and dragons and sex in the place of a coherent plot and decent characterization.

It's fine to enjoy a McDonald's burger, and it's fine to enjoy watching GoT on Sundays(I still mostly do, even with all my criticisms), but that doesn't mean you can argue that it is well written television, because it fucking isn't, any more than McDonald's is prime rib.

But I watch FOR the characterization. For the character moments. Their interactions. And you're really exaggerating how "bad" it's been. The huge action set pieces are a plus on top of everything the show does right.

You can argue that it's generally well written, even considering its obvious flaws. You've just removed that option because you don't agree and that's ridiculous

Equating the difference between McDonalds and prime rib to pre and post the last three seasons is the very definition of hyperbole man. And one is arguable, one is not.

 

[tonysidaway]

i think a really good example of this was how they ended s7. they had a perfect last sequence

Spoiler

when it snowed in king's landing

, where it would have been unexpected to end the season with a beautiful, understated scene. instead we got the predictable, flashy one with

Spoiler

the NK destroying the wall

.

This is a show based on a novel series about dragon riders and ice wraiths. The time for subtle foreshadowing was probably some time before a boy was thrown out of a tower by an incestuous regicide.

 

[VDenter]

Perhaps you have a large ignore list. In this thread alone the ridiculous and wildly exaggerated criticisms have completely hijacked a thread that is ostensibly about a specific and highly limited case, that the writers have set themselves up with a situation in which no one resolution can satisfy every viewer.

The very first reply said, in full: "In the end? Did they see season 5?" Thus writing off a season that has a 95% average episode approval on Rotten Tomatoes. The seventh reply, though longer, dismissed Season 7, which saw the largest ever season-upon-season audience growth and contained the most popular ever single episode.

I didn't have to look far for these summary dismissals. These aren't attempts to analyse the show or to provide reasons beyond "the writing sucks".

People are right to complain when the level of criticism is this low. It's barely more than a sneer.

You also do not have to look far to see completely valid reasons as to why the writing of the show is much worse than it used to be. Audience growth is a matter which is not related at all to the shows quality. It would be the same as using sales data to decide which is the greatest game ever made. Nobody sane who complains about the show ever complained about the viewership numbers because that would be nonsense as it has nothing to do with the shows quality except maybe if you want to speculate the shows current budget.

 

[CloudWolf]

When has GOT ever been about understatement? What was season was that?

It's kind of a Game of Thrones thing that the big climactic episode was the second-to-last episode of the season, with the final episode being mostly focused on the consequences/lead up to next season. Even in season 6, the final episode had the big climactic scene in the beginning. This has been the first time the show has ended on the "big scene of the season".

 

[tonysidaway]

Nobody sane who complains about the show ever complained about the viewership numbers because that would be nonsense as it has nothing to do with the shows quality except maybe if you want to speculate the shows current budget.

So you agree that the show has found and continues to find appreciative audiences? You might have a better way to judge quality, but I see no evidence of this.

 

[kswiston]

Officially he's still writing Winds of Winter, but the actual status of the book is unknown. At least the released chapters were pretty good.

George RR Martin has next to nothing to do with the show anymore though. I'm pretty sure he's still credited as an executive producer, but he has made it pretty clear he's not involved with the writing or story in any way.

His involvement is cashing those $15M+ a year royalty checks while watching football.

As much as I want book 6 and 7, it's hard to fault GRRM from a human perspective. He put in the work, both in terms of writing and interacting with the fantasy fanbase, for something like 40 years. He hasn't been a starving writer for a couple of decades (I think that the ASOIAF series was well over 5M copies sold before the show), but now he's filthy rich, a household name, and can do whatever he wants. He's retirement age, and is enjoying the benefits of being famous and rich as hell in his old age.

That said, I cling to the illogical hope that the major delay since ADWD is because we are getting a surprise release of both books in the same year, Dark Tower style. My head knows that he's just writing 4k pages of manuscript for Winds of Winter, most of which gets trashed or re-written as he discovers where the story is going, but my heart wants to believe!

 

[Surfinn]

His involvement is cashing those $15M+ a year royalty checks while watching football.

As much as I want book 6 and 7, it's hard to fault GRRM from a human perspective. He put in the work, both in terms of writing and interacting with the fantasy fanbase, for something like 40 years. He hasn't been a starving writer for a couple of decades (I think that the ASOIAF series was well over 5M copies sold before the show), but now he's filthy rich, a household name, and can do whatever he wants. He's retirement age, and is enjoying the benefits of being famous and rich as hell in his old age.

That said, I cling to the illogical hope that the major delay since ADWD is because we are getting a surprise release of both books in the same year, Dark Tower style. My head knows that he's just writing 4k pages of manuscript for Winds of Winter, most of which gets trashed or re-written as he discovers where the story is going, but my heart wants to believe!

Double release. Believe

Interesting post, didn't think of it like that

 

[theignoramus]

It's kind of a Game of Thrones thing that the big climactic episode was the second-to-last episode of the season, with the final episode being mostly focused on the consequences/lead up to next season. Even in season 6, the final episode had the big climactic scene in the beginning. This has been the first time the show has ended on the "big scene of the season".

They ended S2 with the White Walker army heading towards the wall. Theyve been heading towards that fucking Wall for 5 seasons now, I rather enjoyed the dramatic way the Walkers punched through the wall thats been protecting humanity for thousands of years.

 

[CloudWolf]

They ended S2 with the White Walker army heading towards the wall. Theyve been heading towards that fucking Wall for 5 season now, I rather enjoyed the dramatic way the Walkers punched through the wall thats been protecting humanity for thousands of years.

The White Walker army heading towards the Wall is a prime example of what I said though, that wasn't the big scene of the season (that was Blackwater Bay), it was build up for season 3 with the Battle on the Fist of the First Men. If season 2 had been made in today's GoT mindset, the episode would've ended with the battle instead of the ominous march of the undead army.

 

[theignoramus]

You also do not have to look far to see completely valid reasons as to why the writing of the show is much worse than it used to be. Audience growth is a matter which is not related at all to the shows quality. It would be the same as using sales data to decide which is the greatest game ever made. Nobody sane who complains about the show ever complained about the viewership numbers because that would be nonsense as it has nothing to do with the shows quality except maybe if you want to speculate the shows current budget.

No, I think the Walking Dead's huge drop off in viewership (someone earlier had the nerve to compare GOT that garbage. At its worst, GoT was always better than that silly show) tells us that audiences wont put up with utter shit, no matter how much of a cultural phenomenon a show becomes.

 

[VDenter]

So you agree that the show has found and continues to find appreciative audiences? You might have a better way to judge quality, but I see no evidence of this.

Why yes it has. How exactly is this useful to anybody except the people who are running HBO i am not sure? The continued viewership rise does not prove that the show has gotten better it just means that the show has gotten more people interested thanks to its concept and word of mouth. If anything it just makes the decline in writing seem more like a wasted opportunity than anything else.

 

[Staccat0]

I really don't understand how anyone can consider GoT "prestige TV" outside of the budget and scope.

This most recent season may have been the worst yet with the atrocious writing, acting and directing. The editing was *terrible*. The only thing good about it was that it had a lot of payoffs set up much earlier in the show. That's the easy part and even those felt ham-fisted.

Yes, I watch the show and I still enjoy the process of viewing it but only because of my investment.

The show went from fun medieval soap opera to trash-tier soap opera.

It breaks my heart when people think it compares favorably to shows like The Wire, The Sopranos, Mad Men, Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul, The Leftovers, etc.

I didn't like this season at all, but I'm very curious what you think the editing team should be doing differently. IME this is a very difficult thing to have a strong opinion about.

 

[John Dunbar]

hbo would have had to replace weiss and benioff as showrunners after the fifth season for there to have been any hope for a decent finish for the series.

 

[RangerX]

So you agree that the show has found and continues to find appreciative audiences? You might have a better way to judge quality, but I see no evidence of this.

This isn't a very good argument. The Transformers film make absolute bank. People will watch all kinds of shit.

 

[Creamium]

That said, I cling to the illogical hope that the major delay since ADWD is because we are getting a surprise release of both books in the same year, Dark Tower style. My head knows that he's just writing 4k pages of manuscript for Winds of Winter, most of which gets trashed or re-written as he discovers where the story is going, but my heart wants to believe!

Martin has already debunked this, it's just not done yet:

I don't know which story is more absurd, the one that says the book is finished and I've been sitting on it for some nefarious reason, or the one that says I have no pages. Both 'reports' are equally false and equally moronic. I am still working on it, I am still months away (how many? good question), I still have good days and bad days, and that's all I care to say.

About the OT discussion: I don't think even the book readers thread goes overboard. There's more criticism there, but a lot of it is valid. I sill like watching too, but at this point the show has (and has had) major issues.

 

[tonysidaway]

If anything it just makes the decline in writing seem more like a wasted opportunity than anything else.

If it has declined, by what means would you measure it? Surely the certainty I've been seeing from some quarters on this thread cannot simply be based on "it diverges from the books", "there is too much spectacle" or "this strand of the show is one I particularly dislike?"

And though I did mention the astounding growth of the audience figures, I did also allude to the almost unseemly stampede of critical accolades, which shows no sign of subsiding.

At what point can you safely assume that the audiences and the critics have got it all wrong and you in front of your television set are objectively correct? Or do you even get that far? Is it enough simply to be the contrarian?

 

[kswiston]

This isn't a very good argument. The Transformers film make absolute bank. People will watch all kinds of shit.

Those movies dropped off in earnings pretty quickly. After the second one domestically. After the third for most territories overseas (outside of China and some other territories in Asia).

Game of Thrones' ratings/viewership trajectory is pretty unusual for a show that has been big by premium cable standards since Season 2.

 

[RoninChaos]

He has no pages, bro.

 

[ProfessorLobo]

So you agree that the show has found and continues to find appreciative audiences? You might have a better way to judge quality, but I see no evidence of this.

So does big bang theory. Seriously what are you doing?

 

[ProfessorLobo]

If it has declined, by what means would you measure it?

Critique, you should try it. It's what makes the original series better than the prequels and the first pirates of the Caribbean better than the fifth one.

 

[jett]

His involvement is cashing those $15M+ a year royalty checks while watching football.

As much as I want book 6 and 7, it's hard to fault GRRM from a human perspective. He put in the work, both in terms of writing and interacting with the fantasy fanbase, for something like 40 years. He hasn't been a starving writer for a couple of decades (I think that the ASOIAF series was well over 5M copies sold before the show), but now he's filthy rich, a household name, and can do whatever he wants. He's retirement age, and is enjoying the benefits of being famous and rich as hell in his old age.

That said, I cling to the illogical hope that the major delay since ADWD is because we are getting a surprise release of both books in the same year, Dark Tower style. My head knows that he's just writing 4k pages of manuscript for Winds of Winter, most of which gets trashed or re-written as he discovers where the story is going, but my heart wants to believe!

I imagine you aren't the only one out there hoping for such a miracle.

If only GURM wasn't GURM.

 

[Morts]

Even if they fumble the ending I'll still be excited when they reboot the show in fifteen years.

 

[tonysidaway]

This isn't a very good argument. The Transformers film make absolute bank. People will watch all kinds of shit.

You make a good point. Transformers is typically a critical dud but it finds its audience and usually triumphs at the box office.

But what other objective criterion exists? Here we have a show the critics and the audiences love. The tiny fraction of the audience that hates it could yet be right, but they really would have to present some very convincing arguments. And that's what they haven't been able to do. "I don't think they should have had this character make that decision" is about as sophisticated as the critique gets.

 

[kswiston]

I imagine you aren't the only one out there hoping for such a miracle.

If only GURM wasn't GURM.

Someone get God on the phone to give GRRM an ultimatum. Neither the Giants or the Jets will win another superbowl until he finishes up ASOIAF. Was it a coincidence that the Giants won in 2012, shortly after ADWD released? I think not. He was also rewarded with a Giants appearance in the 2001 Superbowl after ASOS. However, The Almighty stanned for Robb Stark, so the Giants lost.

 

[VDenter]

You make a good point. Transformers is typically a critical dud but it finds its audience and usually triumphs at the box office.

But what other objective criterion exists? Here we have a show the critics and the audiences love. The tiny fraction of the audience that hates it could yet be right, but they really would have to present some very convincing arguments. And that's what they haven't been able to do. "I don't think they should have had this character make that decision" is about as sophisticated as the critique gets.

I can tell you the critique goes way further than "I don't think they should have had this character make that decision". It is also not hard to find.

 

[Dash_Riprock]

This isn't a very good argument. The Transformers film make absolute bank. People will watch all kinds of shit.

The last transformers movie tanked. People will only tolerate shit for so long.

GoT continues to set ratings records even after season 5 which most fans disliked so general audiences do not have a problem with it that we can measure.

Edit: And beaten by kwsis as usual.

 

[tonysidaway]

I can tell you the critique goes way further than "I don't think they should have had this character make that decision". It is also not hard to find.

While you were thinking up that empty boast, more people discovered the show for the first time. The world waits with bated breath for the arrival of a reasoned argument supporting the claim that the critics and audiences have been wrong all along and Game of Thrones is a failure. With the most popular episode ever having aired just a few days ago and just six episodes yet to be seen, time is running out.

 

[VDenter]

While you were thinking up that empty boast, more people discovered the show for the first time. The world waits with bated breath for the arrival of a reasoned argument supporting the claim that the critics and audiences have been wrong all along and Game of Thrones is a failure. With the most popular episode ever having aired just a few days ago and just six episodes yet to be seen, time is running out.

What are you talking about?

 

[CloudWolf]

While you were thinking up that empty boast, more people discovered the show for the first time. The world waits with bated breath for the arrival of a reasoned argument supporting the claim that the critics and audiences have been wrong all along and Game of Thrones is a failure. With the most popular episode ever having aired just a few days ago and just six episodes yet to be seen, time is running out.

As far as I've seen the critical response to season 7 has been pretty divided. Critics definitely didn't "love" season 7. Especially episode 6 got a lot of criticism from mainstream publications.

 

[kswiston]

Martin has already debunked this, it's just not done yet:

No doubt that is the case. However, in the hypothetical scenario where Martin wanted a surprise double release, he'd totally just lie about it beforehand. Lying hurts no one in that situation.

 

[tonysidaway]

What are you talking about?

Game of Thrones, the critically acclaimed, award winning, increasingly popular fantasy show that attracts brickbats from a small minority who seem to have difficulty articulating their reasons for believing it to be fatally flawed.

 

[VDenter]

Game of Thrones, the critically acclaimed, award winning, increasingly popular fantasy show that attracts brickbats from a small minority who seem to have difficulty articulating their reasons for believing it to be fatally flawed.

Can you back this up in any way besides just anecdotal evidence? All critique i watched and read on the show has been valid, some of it i do not agree with but the vast majority of them i do and almost all of them have articulated the reasons as to why they disliked certain aspects of it. (Even the ones i do not personally agree with)

You seem to be dead set on using a few hyperbolic posts as some kind of be all end all evidence and justification as to how everybody who complained about seasons 5-7 thinks.Your post to me seems to imply just because the critics liked it and the viewership numbers are great that the show is basically flawless and everybody should just shut up.

 

[tonysidaway]

As far as I've seen the critical response to season 7 has been pretty divided. Critics definitely didn't "love" season 7. Especially episode 6 got a lot of criticism from mainstream publications.

It's early days, but Season 7 is currently at 96% on the tomatometer based on 34 reviews.

Season 6 is also at 96%, based on 29 reviews.

 

[Poor GRIMES]

It's early days, but Season 7 is currently at 96% on the tomatometer based on 34 reviews.

Season 6 is also at 96%, based on 29 reviews.

Season 7 definitely has problems, but as usual, they are overblown. GOT is held to this almost Apple-like high standard where being just very good isn't good enough. At least, the vocal minority gets louder anyway.

 

[kswiston]

It's early days, but Season 7 is currently at 96% on the tomatometer based on 34 reviews.

Season 6 is also at 96%, based on 29 reviews.

The season ratings are usually for the first few episodes. I know that HBO used to send critics the first 4 early, but that changed after the Season 5 leak. I'm not sure how much content factors into that "Season" review now, but it's not the whole thing.

Here is the episode by episode reception this season:

EDIT: This was season 6

So more unsatisfied viewers this season, which matches the general WOM, but still not terrible by any stretch of the imagination.


EDIT: And the Bad Pussy Season, because why not?

Episode 6 was Sansa's rape. By far the worst received episode in the show's history.

 

[qcf x2]

What are you talking about?

He's employing flagrant hyperbole because he cannot find his point. There have been various posts detailing criticisms in the last few pages alone, but he cares not to read them because he knows that views = quality. It's a Youtube fact.

 

[Bluemongoose]

The only way it can disappoint me is if everyone lays down their weapons, and both the living and dead hold hands and dance and embrace one another.

I second this.

 

[tonysidaway]

Can you back this up in any way besides just anecdotal evidence? All critique i watched and read on the show has been valid, some of it i do not agree with but the vast majority of them i do and almost all of them have articulated the reasons as to why they disliked certain aspects of it. (Even the ones i do not personally agree with)

Sure, people like different things. I won't go anywhere near the Godfather series, or anything that presents the Mafia in a positive light. But I don't think the awards it won as drama were unmerited. It's just not my kind of film.

Here you're describing very much the kind of critique you will often see on blogs and forums. Criticism is _hard_. It's hard because it demands of the critic a self-awareness and an understanding of storytelling media that few of us ever bother to acquire.

And so it always seems to end up with complaints that "the writing sucks", or something equally vapid. The complaints in this case are often incredibly vehement, as I have remarked, typically dismissing entire seasons that have gone on to win awards and an increased audience. And the dismissal comes for no more reason, apparently, than personal preference.

Firstly, the idea of posting on a forum about how some show sucks because you dislike it is counter-productive for several reasons, not least because it makes you sound pretentious and self-absorbed. It also places you in a position of having your bluff repeatedly called. You would need extraordinary persuasive powers as well as having an exceptionally good case to make, to stand a chance.

But does that mean the carpers should just sit on their hands? Well, not really. But after umpteen pages of this, there comes a point at which the arguments against the show are looking threadbare. The more popularity, the higher the critical acclaim, and the more awards a show receives, the sooner that moment will come.

You really would need a good point to make, to persuade reasonably skeptical people that you're not just nitpicking about a show's failure to match your personal preferences.

No show is perfect, no show is proof against criticism. But again, I'm talking about the extremely vehement dismissal that has characterised many comments on this thread.

 

[VDenter]

He's employing flagrant hyperbole because he cannot find his point. There have been various posts detailing criticisms in the last few pages alone, but he cares not to read them because he knows that views = quality. It's a Youtube fact.

Yeah this seems to be the case.