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Warhammer 40,000 |OT| In the Grim Darkness of the Community Forum There Is Only War
- Thread starter GarthVaderUK
- Start date
Power armour adds to their strength, but the base strength is still necessary. Even without their power armour on they are ridiculously strong. Within their own ranks there are fair differences in strength even though all of them wear power armour. Not to mention there are different types of PA. The one's the SM wear are built for their physique and physical stature. Power Armour isn't just for strength, it has a multitude of other uses.
One of the facets that makes a Space Marine literally is their physical strength. Their capacity to use that strength to do the unthinkable is why they exist. Hold bolters in one hand, rip the hatches off the top of tanks, etc. Their physical strength/capacity is a primary attribute of a Space Marine. That's what they are built for. Super troops capable of dealing with anything (or so is their intent), built to be the pinnacle of human genetics.
Whilst I understand that it's dumb to limit that push of genetics to just men, it is understandable why a male version of a SM would be superior to a female. You are right that tactics and the lot are important, but the physicality of an SM is what is foremost. Since tactics can be taught, but physical capacity cannot.
One of the facets that makes a Space Marine literally is their physical strength. Their capacity to use that strength to do the unthinkable is why they exist. Hold bolters in one hand, rip the hatches off the top of tanks, etc. Their physical strength/capacity is a primary attribute of a Space Marine. That's what they are built for. Super troops capable of dealing with anything (or so is their intent), built to be the pinnacle of human genetics.
Whilst I understand that it's dumb to limit that push of genetics to just men, it is understandable why a male version of a SM would be superior to a female. You are right that tactics and the lot are important, but the physicality of an SM is what is foremost. Since tactics can be taught, but physical capacity cannot.
Enosh
Member
female guard regiments make up some 10 or 15% of the IG forces iirc, think it was in one of the cain books, they are usually segregated except for some rare mixed regiments (the Valhalans that Cain works with for example)
women can't be space marines because some part(s) of the extra organs and other implants they throw at them are coded to male chromosomes or something like that
it's more or less a bullshit reason, but that's the fluff reason
My point is that pure physical strength is not what we look for *now* in troops. To suggest it's the defining characteristic of mankind's most technologically advanced soldiers ever is just ludicrous and totally contradictory.
Again, the universe is what it is - and I love it, ridiculous self contradictory warts and all. But lets not try and rationale away what is blatantly just a geeky power teenage boy power trip.
Again, the universe is what it is - and I love it, ridiculous self contradictory warts and all. But lets not try and rationale away what is blatantly just a geeky power teenage boy power trip.
Unfortunately due to the set up of the 40k universe and the lore of the SM, physical strength is really what they look for as a primary field in their recruitment. You cannot compare real world troops to the fictional 40k universe. The premise for what a soldier requires is utterly different.
Yes the logic is dumb as to why you cannot have female SM, but it cannot be denied that on average a male will be the superior SM to a female considering the tasks of an SM. Taking the OTT nature of the 40k universe, you can imagine why physical prowess is such an important factor, once again considering the tasks asked of them. Space Marines are not war tools of finesse. They are hammers that smash their way through. Why use finesse and convoluted strategic reasoning, when you can just brute force your way through the problem? THAT is the logic of a Space Marine.
Yes the logic is dumb as to why you cannot have female SM, but it cannot be denied that on average a male will be the superior SM to a female considering the tasks of an SM. Taking the OTT nature of the 40k universe, you can imagine why physical prowess is such an important factor, once again considering the tasks asked of them. Space Marines are not war tools of finesse. They are hammers that smash their way through. Why use finesse and convoluted strategic reasoning, when you can just brute force your way through the problem? THAT is the logic of a Space Marine.
Enosh
Member
we don't because we don't expect from our troops to go into constant hand to hand combat
space marines have to be able to do that on top of the dakka
In a universe where orks make things work by believing hard enough, I don't see why women couldn't be engineered to have the same level of strength, or why they couldn't become space marines if the fluff had demanded it. The people who came up with this shit just didn't think of it, and trying to justify it seems pretty silly.
We also don't field apartment block sized tanks, bipedal artillery pieces that have castles built on them, nor do we fight giant monsters that can rip through said pieces of machinery with half a thought.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
Real world kind of sucks.
Other than not being raped all eternity long by chaos daemons.
Other than not being raped all eternity long by chaos daemons.
So, what's technological advancement like in the 40k universe? I lurk this thread hard because it's probably the greatest ever, but I don't have any real experience with the subject matter. I know that there's a deep resentment for advanced technology (dark age of technology and all), but does that mean that the stuff they use now is mostly handled in a "follow the instructions" sense and not a "we actually know what we're doing and how this works" sense? Is there a struggle between zealots wanting to maintain the status quo and more forward-thinking people struggling to climb back up to the technological heights mankind previously reached, or is the party line to just keep things as they are?
Also, chainswords. Someone give me a reason for chainswords other than them being the most badass weapon ever conceived.
Also, chainswords. Someone give me a reason for chainswords other than them being the most badass weapon ever conceived.
Everybody but the Tau are basically standing still technology-wise. The Imperium occasionally produces something new, but most of the time the techpriests are busy saying prayers and burning incense to placate the machine spirit on misbehaving machines.
This is 40k, being badass is the only required reason
Why waste the effort of using a weaker base to produce super humans? It's not like they are lacking in the number of men (and even then most don't even make the cut)?
The point of the female SM has evolved slightly. It's not about the lack of inclusion, but rather why bother with a lesser version? (if you take into considering base genetics and having to improve on that).
I cannot imagine the Emperor sitting there going, now how can I take a woman and make her the physical equal of a man so that I can have SM from both sexes. It was probably just simpler and less time consuming to use a male of which there are plenty. He did have a galaxy to conquer!
Eppy Thatcher
God's had his chance.
except for.. you know.. the way the chapters pick space marines. If they happened to land on a world where the women were holding all day long, to the death, round robin death matches and the men were doing literally EVERYTHING else ... they might just pick the strongest gal outta the bunch and turn into a fuckin Assault Marine.
But you are ignoring what many have said... that it's not physical strength just for physical strengths sake...it's physical strength because your bones break and reform, they implant multiple little upgrades all over your body, muscle mass increases, the gene-seed goes nuts on your physiology and all the while you are most likely either fighting OTHER space marine recruits, your shadow against the wall or perhaps a gigantic fucking wolf... while in the throes of a full body genetic makeover.
The women they pick may deal with the pain decently... just about as well as any other human dealing with their body literally changing from the inside out... but in the end they still have to go up against the rest of the marines that just got jumped into a new space gang... and would likely get swallowed up before their first deployment.
Eppy Thatcher
God's had his chance.
Rending. Captain + Chainsword + field of Orks = Trimming the grimdark hedges. Shits gotta have TEETH son!!
SillyEskimo
Member
The lore is basically a futuristic version of the Dark Ages. There were not a lot of female warriors during the Dark Ages. I think the Sisters of Battle fill that niche exceptionally well actually with their Joan of Arc vibe. The rest of the lore really shouldn't be messed with very much at all IMO. In such a dark place, I don't think being PC ranks very high on the "to do" list. I mentioned earlier several scenerios where females get their spot light and I think each one fits really well when the lore supports them. They also have good roles in a lot of the books.
Cosmic Schwung
Member
I found my color scheme (which can be the hardest part!). It is based off of this artwork by Andrew Bawidamann.
I want a bright, exotic look. A bright orange should be easy to deepen and highlight, with black/white as a stark contrast. Yellow will be my "pop" color, so things like clear canopys and such will pop out a bit.
Looks like Lugganath.
There's a small blurb in this Lexicanum entry on why males are chosen over females in the creation of a Space Marine. I guess if you wanted to expand on it you could just say that it came down to The Emperor making 20 18 sons and it's their gene-seed that's passed onto new Marines.
Knowledge is monopolized more or less by the Mechanicum and predicated on templates, this means that it stagnates and can be lost. (Some weaponry from the Great Crusade isn't able to be replicated in M41, for example.)
I don't think there is as deep a divide as the Puritan / Radical difference in the Inquisition (excepting the Dark Mechanicum, of course), however there is a small sect that is more... heretical in its devotion to learning about alien technology. All members of the Mechanicum want to learn more knowledge, so there isn't really a progressive / conservative rivalry (excepting the Xenarites, of course.)
I'm just making this up, but Imperial arms are chosen with a certain degree of utilitarianism (for example, the lasgun is the standard issue IG weapon because it can operate anywhere with minimal need for resupply). A motorized cutting blade can be used for clearing flora, or rending the flesh of large fauna. They're also terrifying, and thus wielded by fear-inspiring agents of the Imperium (e.g. commissars, SPESS MAHRINES).
DonasaurusRex
Online Ho Champ
actually they're both , genetically engineered to be strong and smart AND they have power armor of varying degrees. For whatever reason only the sons can carry the emperors gene seed so im guessing its bound to the Y chromosome.
Sneaky Gato
Member
The problem is that when originally conceived the Universe was a very clear parody of the original product Warhammer Fantasy. Which was a fantasy take on Medieval to Renaissance Europe. They had the Empire so there was the Imperium, There were Orcs so we got Orks. There were Elves so we got Eldar. There were dwarves so we got Squ- *BLAM* I mean nothing. So the Space Marines were based off of various knightly monk orders. Well and that in the original version they were barely any better than Chaos. As time has passed that sort of immidiate paring has faded away so while it may make sense now back then it really didn't. Well that and GW was nerd heaven in the 80's. But the things were set in place and too much had been set in stone by this point to really change it.
SillyEskimo
Member
I know what you mean, but it really is a bit deeper than that too. The IG are treated as cannon fodder ala WW1 trench warfare or Russians during Stalingrad. Space Marines are like super versions of modern day special forces with a large dose of warrior monk mixed in. The Eldar's highly trained citizen army is comparable to modern Israel, right down to both sexes serving. Tau are like a combination of mecha and Star Trek with Communist overtones. The Dark Eldar are all basically Cenobites from Hellraiser. The mash ups that GW do are absurd and amazing at the same time. Somehow it all works though. They can and do tweek their lore (see Squats), but so much of their stuff is borrowed or lifted from actual history and there just are not any famous battles in history containing forces that were predominately women or had female warriors.
V
Vilix
Unconfirmed Member
SquiddyCracker
Banned
Or why their differences couldn't be harnessed.
If women are smaller and lighter than men, enhance that even further to make faster and deadlier assassins or scouts.
Thing is, I believe the Imperium is doing precisely that, but they're being limited by their ability to come up with new genemod techniques being pretty much nonexistent due to the decay of the Empire.
The space marines were conceived way back, and nowadays they're just repeating an ancient process.
I think the Callidus Temple is comprised exclusively of women.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
I don't see how gender has to do with anything when you're picking individuals from the cream of the crop.
Unless you mean to argue that the sickly old man in his death throes is a better choice than a woman who killed multiple enemies against fierce odds solely because the former choice is a man regardless of his condition or aptitude.
You see this in nature all the time. Bigger doesn't mean better.
Plenty of living organisms in nature kill things significantly larger than them all the time. Even Space Marines for all their enhancements do it against the enemies they fight that are frequently larger and stronger than them.
You parse for results, not something that doesn't affect those results. Or at least that's what I would expect if someone is looking for the best of the best.
I still need to finish the Retribution SM campaign.
Unless you mean to argue that the sickly old man in his death throes is a better choice than a woman who killed multiple enemies against fierce odds solely because the former choice is a man regardless of his condition or aptitude.
You see this in nature all the time. Bigger doesn't mean better.
Plenty of living organisms in nature kill things significantly larger than them all the time. Even Space Marines for all their enhancements do it against the enemies they fight that are frequently larger and stronger than them.
You parse for results, not something that doesn't affect those results. Or at least that's what I would expect if someone is looking for the best of the best.
I still need to finish the Retribution SM campaign.
That would never be an issue as recruits are chosen as teenagers and younger. At the age they are chosen they have very limited fighting experience and most marine recruitment worlds don't even use ranged weapons from what I have read over the years. Any tactics they know are thrown out the window most of the time as most chapters follow the codex astartes.
Eppy Thatcher
God's had his chance.
They specifically mention the fact that one of the most important factors they look for in any of their recruits is straight up un-mitigated blood lust and ferocity. The killer instinct as it were... those who... without any assistance or training ... manage to survive and thrive and move forward despite overwhelming odds and all that.
Essentially - To kill has be something so second nature that we would, in modern times, consider the best SM applicants to be in the wool psychopaths. Where as in the modern world that makes you a dangerous addition to something like the marine corps the Astartes will have no trouble breaking that nasty insubordination habit you have while at the same time cultivating your batshit crazy attributes so you don't even blink when facing up against a fucking Termagaunt or whatever.
"FOR THE EMPRAH" indeed...
Yeah they have to test them somehow. Irc the space wolves recruit from fenris and that place still has multiple warrants fighting each other all the time viking style. They just pick and choose from the most crazy fighters. At the end of the day the best warriors are generally going to be men and there us a limited supply of gene seeds. Most recruits don't even live through the process.
Now if you look at the eldar/dark eldar they have short supply of man power not equipment so they take anyone man, woman, ghost.
Yeah pretty much. I'm sure the most detailed fluff about SM recruitment was about the space wolves in 2nd ed and they just get all the craziest warriors and put them in warbands of young bloods I think. They were basically khorne berserkers.
Now if you look at the eldar/dark eldar they have short supply of man power not equipment so they take anyone man, woman, ghost.
Yeah pretty much. I'm sure the most detailed fluff about SM recruitment was about the space wolves in 2nd ed and they just get all the craziest warriors and put them in warbands of young bloods I think. They were basically khorne berserkers.
Eppy Thatcher
God's had his chance.
I'm trying to remember if it's out of the book about the Space Wolves (can't remember the name) but they talk about the whole process of turning this guy into a SM and at one point they are in completely dark chambers... essentially holding cells... while the gene-seed works its way through their system and they talk about how they have to go from room to room and find the recruits whose gene-seed implant ran a little too rampant.. essentially turning the guys into fucking werewolves... and they just kill em. Rip the seed out and start over.
Like - Teeth, sharp nails, extra muscle and manly ass man beard? All good.
Dislike - Bi-jointed legs, snouts, hunched posture and drooling? Sorry kid ya failed. *Bolter round*
Grim-fackin-dark.
was it part of the ragnar greymane series?
Eppy Thatcher
God's had his chance.
Fucking RAGNAR .. yes. Thank you man... my WH40K would have been so disappointed in me just now. But yes... it is. The first book actually.
Fucking good stuff.
Yeah the 2nd ed space wolves codes had a lot of cool stuff like that. Fluff was great but rules were so so so broken.
Eppy Thatcher
God's had his chance.
I'm really hoping that a new Ork codex will finally include some really good, dark, violent fluff to go along with the black humor.
I don't want pictures of "bosses" in pirate hats with lorries and shit. I want them treated like the rest of the races for once. With some seriously intimidating fluff to go along with army lists and new rules.
I mean... Ghaz is supposed to be like 24 feet tall. Show me some brutality already.
I remember looking through the codex books and such back in the day with my friends while they played. Stuff like the Burning Legion and the universe wide understood truths (Space Marines are warrior gods, if the Orks got together nothing could stop them, Dark Eldar are fuuuuuucking scary) was so fantastic. Daydreams about the Emprah over and over again. I think my favorite part was that the pre-history of 40k is our current time now. That the Emperor himself could be walking around right now shaking his head like "Godamn these fucking psychos keep killing each other. Gonna have to make an army of Psychos to slow this shit down...."
And that whole "Robot AI army rebellion" thing that the fluff just glosses over so fast...
I don't want pictures of "bosses" in pirate hats with lorries and shit. I want them treated like the rest of the races for once. With some seriously intimidating fluff to go along with army lists and new rules.
I mean... Ghaz is supposed to be like 24 feet tall. Show me some brutality already.
I remember looking through the codex books and such back in the day with my friends while they played. Stuff like the Burning Legion and the universe wide understood truths (Space Marines are warrior gods, if the Orks got together nothing could stop them, Dark Eldar are fuuuuuucking scary) was so fantastic. Daydreams about the Emprah over and over again. I think my favorite part was that the pre-history of 40k is our current time now. That the Emperor himself could be walking around right now shaking his head like "Godamn these fucking psychos keep killing each other. Gonna have to make an army of Psychos to slow this shit down...."
And that whole "Robot AI army rebellion" thing that the fluff just glosses over so fast...
Sneaky Gato
Member
2nd was completely broken. Remember how 'nid players had to destroy their virus cards they were so broken. Just wipe entire armies from the field.
Lol that's exactly why I love 2nd ed above all others. 20 man terminator squad with assault cannons. All the different grenades like hallucinogen grenade, virus grenade etc. Anti grav guns against a carnifex or leman Russ demolisher. Shooting some buff special character with shuriken shrieker ammo and watching him stumble around until he explodes and kills his own men. So many unique things could happen every battle. Btw I'm sure nids were immune to everything except Helfire shells.
Putting aside fluff justifications for the whole no female Space Marines thing for a second, I've always thought it was kind of interesting that the modern, popular Space Marine concept borrows a lot from the Adepta Sororitas, which was the Sisters of Battle archetype before they were called the Sisters of Battle.
Rogue Trader's treatment of Space Marines was more overtly Heinlein-inspired, and they were treated as freaky, drug-addled quasi-space berserkers in power armor that were more objects of revulsion than of reverence within the Imperium. The Sororitas in their Rogue Trader mentions as well as their portrayal in the Codex Imperialis that was released alongside 2nd edition 40k were a more ascetic order of women-at-arms. Then the monastic element got rolled into the Space Marines and the Sororitas were sidelined until they were revived as the Sisters of Battle with the whole Ecclesiarchy and Age of Apostasy backstory in the latter days of 2nd edition.
Their model line's never gotten an update since then, though there've been rumors for years that one of GW's senior sculptors has been working on an updated line as something of a pet project. Even in their 2nd edition incarnation they were never a "complete" model line so to speak, as you were expected to draw upon Imperial Guard miniatures to round out your army if you wanted any sort of tactical flexibility.
Kind of a weird history, really. They've been part of the fiction practically since its inception, but their thematic elements all got gobbled up by the likes of the Space Marines and the Inquisition.
Rogue Trader's treatment of Space Marines was more overtly Heinlein-inspired, and they were treated as freaky, drug-addled quasi-space berserkers in power armor that were more objects of revulsion than of reverence within the Imperium. The Sororitas in their Rogue Trader mentions as well as their portrayal in the Codex Imperialis that was released alongside 2nd edition 40k were a more ascetic order of women-at-arms. Then the monastic element got rolled into the Space Marines and the Sororitas were sidelined until they were revived as the Sisters of Battle with the whole Ecclesiarchy and Age of Apostasy backstory in the latter days of 2nd edition.
Their model line's never gotten an update since then, though there've been rumors for years that one of GW's senior sculptors has been working on an updated line as something of a pet project. Even in their 2nd edition incarnation they were never a "complete" model line so to speak, as you were expected to draw upon Imperial Guard miniatures to round out your army if you wanted any sort of tactical flexibility.
Kind of a weird history, really. They've been part of the fiction practically since its inception, but their thematic elements all got gobbled up by the likes of the Space Marines and the Inquisition.
Eppy Thatcher
God's had his chance.
I remember reading about orks being absolutely bonkers to play as/against. Just weapons exploding and crazy "one if 5 things might happen now: roll dice" all over the place. Sounds like a game I might wanna watch instead of play!
NuclearSpy
Member
Hey guys, just wanted to introduce myself here. I haven't played 40k since 3rd ed, but i still had my models, so I stripped the paint off and I started repainting them this year.
I have an Ork army that I am currently painting Bad Moon colors. I'll have same pics for sharing up when I get the chance.
Anywho, I want to ask for some advice for expanding and adding onto my army getting it current for competitiveness.
First question, why did Nazdreg get taken out? Lame, we need his rules back in. Kustom blasta X was awesome. Keep that shit awesome.
I understand the best Ork armies are the shooting kind. Let me be clear as to what the consensus is on the MUST haves for successful Ork shooting armies. I know there might plenty of people who believe Orkz should be all about getting into an assault, so feel free to disagree. Orkz with rediculous amounts of dakka succeeds far more then an assault army. Seen it. Done it myself.
2 Big Meks
Maximum amount of Burna Boyz
Maximum amount of Defcoptas
Battlewagons
Anyone have any insights on new Ork models?
Nice to see Cyan in here. Didn't know you were into 40k.
I have an Ork army that I am currently painting Bad Moon colors. I'll have same pics for sharing up when I get the chance.
Anywho, I want to ask for some advice for expanding and adding onto my army getting it current for competitiveness.
First question, why did Nazdreg get taken out? Lame, we need his rules back in. Kustom blasta X was awesome. Keep that shit awesome.
I understand the best Ork armies are the shooting kind. Let me be clear as to what the consensus is on the MUST haves for successful Ork shooting armies. I know there might plenty of people who believe Orkz should be all about getting into an assault, so feel free to disagree. Orkz with rediculous amounts of dakka succeeds far more then an assault army. Seen it. Done it myself.
2 Big Meks
Maximum amount of Burna Boyz
Maximum amount of Defcoptas
Battlewagons
Anyone have any insights on new Ork models?
Nice to see Cyan in here. Didn't know you were into 40k.
Orks in 2nd edition were pretty much a hilarious logistical nightmare. Depending on the size of the game you could easily have well over 100 miniatures on the table and they were all constantly exploding, misfiring, picking fights with one another, haphazardly lurching towards the opposing army, crashing into terrain pieces, trying to run away from their minders, teleporting through the warp and materializing inside of enemies, and -- on rare occasions -- successfully engaging the enemy.
Turns could easily take an hour. In a lot of ways 2nd edition games were best enjoyed retrospectively; once they were over you could mentally edit out the interminable dice-rolling, template-scattering, and grot-moving and just remember the zany highlights while thinking "Man, what a game!" when during the actual proceedings you were mostly checking your watch and rolling your eyes whenever a scatter die or failed leadership test necessitated another 10 minutes of resolving the crucial question of whether or not your whole army was about to be annihilated, turn tail and run, or some combination of both.
I kinda wish GW made a companion app for tablets. Register your armies, set up an engagement, and the armydiscombobulator will guide you through each battle you indicate, remind you of important rule sets, roll dice on command, and allow you to check up on your units on the field, in reserve, and everywhere else they might turn up. All of this while wirelessly syncing the results with your opponent. Maybe even with a custom minimap built from a hasty photo from above, with custom markers and a small scratchpad for strategies and general info).
Sure, it would devolve the game into two nerdlings sitting across a table filled with minis, taking turns silently shoving said minis around, checking their tablets, and removing minis accordingly. Still, as horrifyingly boring as this particular example would turn out, I wish computers could alleviate the mind numbing number crunching part a bit. With the right balance skirmishes wouldn't need to be a major affair.
( Still astounded that GW haven't started putting NFC chips in their kits. Especially with the skylanders and whatnot hype. Don't sneer. You would buy a simplistic model viewer app that allowed you to look at any single of your minis - in 3D, with custom decals and battle damage, backed with atmospheric backgrounds and garnished with some fluff and maybe a battle log. Custom base fills up with the remains of your slain foes! Automatically awarded service bolts, purity seals, etc! Tap for Teef! And so on...)
Sure, it would devolve the game into two nerdlings sitting across a table filled with minis, taking turns silently shoving said minis around, checking their tablets, and removing minis accordingly. Still, as horrifyingly boring as this particular example would turn out, I wish computers could alleviate the mind numbing number crunching part a bit. With the right balance skirmishes wouldn't need to be a major affair.
( Still astounded that GW haven't started putting NFC chips in their kits. Especially with the skylanders and whatnot hype. Don't sneer. You would buy a simplistic model viewer app that allowed you to look at any single of your minis - in 3D, with custom decals and battle damage, backed with atmospheric backgrounds and garnished with some fluff and maybe a battle log. Custom base fills up with the remains of your slain foes! Automatically awarded service bolts, purity seals, etc! Tap for Teef! And so on...)
They don't always kill the failures. Remember, "there are no wolves on Fenris".
Well essentially what you're asking for isn't a SM in women. They do have enhancements to give them more in the role of assassin and scouts; Callidus and Venenum assassins.
Unfortunately the only person who truly knows how the gene-seed works and can be created is the Emperor himself. So it's essentially impossible to start creating anything remotely like an SM.
Not to mention anything and everything not sanctioned by the Imperium is considered heretical and burnt.
2nd edition in general was insane. Grenades with dozen different effects, artillery firing shitload of randomly scattering templates, pimped up squads deep striking off the table, weapons jamming and exploding killing more of your own men then enemies (oh reaper autocannons, how I loved thee), rules upon rules everywhere, for everything. In retrospect, although it's probably nostalgia speaking, it was my favourite edition up to date.
Orks love loud noises so lots of dakka makes just as much sense as a really choppy Ork army. I think both extremes work well.