Support NeoGAF

[duckroll]

Well, since no one really objected, here are the loglines for the next three episodes. I don't really feel they are particularly spoilery, but ymmv. It does suggest that some major shit goes down in the 9th episode, but that's pretty much expected given how it's the second last episode.

Episode #7:

Spoiler

"Trompe L'Oeil"

Dolores (Evan Rachel Wood) and William (Jimmi Simpson) journey into treacherous terrain; Maeve (Thandie Newton) delivers an ultimatum; Bernard (Jeffrey Wright) considers his next move.

Written by Halley Gross & Jonathan Nolan; directed by Frederick E.O. Toye.



Episode #8:

Spoiler

"Trace Decay"


Bernard (Jeffrey Wright) struggles with a mandate; Maeve (Thandie Newton) looks to change her script; Teddy (James Marsden) is jarred by dark memories.

Written by Charles Yu & Lisa Joy; directed by Stephen Williams.



Episode #9:

Spoiler

"The Well-Tempered Clavier"

Dolores (Evan Rachel Wood) and Bernard (Jeffrey Wright) reconnect with their pasts; Maeve (Thandie Newton) makes a bold proposition to Hector (Rodrigo Santoro); Teddy (James Marsden) finds enlightenment, at a price.

Written by Dan Dietz & Katherine Lingenfelter; directed by Michelle MacLaren.

 

[Trouble]

I need more of this timeline.

It took me most of the first episode to remember where I knew her from, it was driving me crazy. I was about to pause and look it up on IMDB when it came to me.

 

[Joni]

Jurassic Park. I rest my case.

The deaths included one low level worker (basically an industrial accident), 3 high-level employees, and InGen's lawyer. 5 deaths, one of which was likely stilly fully covered up decades later, one of which is a responsible party, none of which were guests, and all of this was a year before the park was even ready to be opened. Not exactly comparable. And even then it took like 20 years to get the park back on track.

And if I remember correctly, Jeff Goldblum is ridiculed at the start of the second movie for his crackpot story about dinosaurs.

 

[AntiFacebook]

The Maeve parts if the episode were so stupid.
There was no reason for them to help her.
Even if they were afraid she might kill them, they could just shut her off.

 

[The Mule]

Just saw that sequence laid out on reddit, definitely seems very suspect. http://imgur.com/gallery/0MJUS

Yeah, either Bernard is a host that was frozen or Ford is able to insert a virtual version of himself into the minds of hosts. That kind of phenomenon would work well with how current timeline Dolores appears to be interacting with people who aren't there (i.e. train shot).

On another note, did anyone notice how Maeve deliberately got herself killed and IMMEDIATELY woke up in the a body where the asian butcher was. Appears to be more evidence that their consciousness is transferred from a body in the park to a body in the facility. Like a proxy body they use for in-person behavioural tests, without having to wait for the in-park body to be transferred back to the facility. I imagine that each host's consciousness has many bodies they can transfer to.

Even if they were afraid she might kill them, they could just shut her off.

Isn't it alluded to that that is exactly what the asian butcher did, but she wakes herself up by killing herself in the park?

 

[Joni]

It makes me wonder if Maeve herself is changing her attributes. Like her stats are raising because she is developing true AI.

On another note, did anyone notice how Maeve deliberately got herself killed and IMMEDIATELY woke up in the a body where the asian butcher was. Appears to be more evidence that their consciousness is transferred from a body in the park to a body in the facility. Like a proxy body they use for in-person behavioural tests, without having to wait for the in-park body to be transferred back to the facility. I imagine that each host's consciousness has many bodies they can transfer to.

The butcher is there to fix their bodies. It doesn't make sense if he is working on a separate body. He needs to fix her. There needs to be some time between the scenes.

 

[duckroll]

On another note, did anyone notice how Maeve deliberately got herself killed and IMMEDIATELY woke up in the a body where the asian butcher was. Appears to be more evidence that their consciousness is transferred from a body in the park to a body in the facility. Like a proxy body they use for in-person behavioural tests, without having to wait for the in-park body to be transferred back to the facility. I imagine that each host's consciousness has many bodies they can transfer to.

That's just a transition to show what it would feel like for Maeve. Otherwise there's no reason at all why she would have woken up while they were operating on her previously, or why they would be in a rush to patch her up and left a bullet in her. If they could transfer them into spare bodies all the time, they would just fix up bodies when they were completely inactive.

 

[FStop7]

Dolores triggered something in Maeve when she said "These violent delights have violent endings." Maybe that caused the mysterious changes - planted to activate. By Arnold.

 

[psynergylover]

Things are getting interesting outside the park, and they used the old logo again when in the legacy system.



She was pretty hot on Raising Hope

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQVaT9ONy5I

 

[Grizzlyjin]

Yeah, either Bernard is a host that was frozen or Ford is able to insert a virtual version of himself into the minds of hosts. That kind of phenomenon would work well with how current timeline Dolores appears to be interacting with people who aren't there (i.e. train shot).

On another note, did anyone notice how Maeve deliberately got herself killed and IMMEDIATELY woke up in the a body where the asian butcher was. Appears to be more evidence that their consciousness is transferred from a body in the park to a body in the facility. Like a proxy body they use for in-person behavioural tests, without having to wait for the in-park body to be transferred back to the facility. I imagine that each host's consciousness has many bodies they can transfer to.

Isn't it alluded to that that is exactly what the asian butcher did, but she wakes herself up by killing herself in the park?

This contradicts so much that they've literally shown. We've seen the crews come in and pick up the bodies after they're "killed." Them leaving a bullet fragment inside her was a plot point in the show. You're over thinking things a wee bit. She gets herself killed because then she'll be taken for repairs. That's it.

 

[Ferrio]

Finally got to see this week's episode. I'm surprised so many people hated the Butchers' scenes. I mean we got to watch Maeve gain sentience, that was pretty damn amazing.

 

[Einchy]

Finally got to see this week's episode. I'm surprised so many people hated the Butchers' scenes. I mean we got to watch Maeve gain sentience, that was pretty damn amazing.

Agreed, I liked it a lot as well.

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

Finally got to see this week's episode. I'm surprised so many people hated the Butchers' scenes. I mean we got to watch Maeve gain sentience, that was pretty damn amazing.

Not exactly. She's now smarter than the average host, but she's no more sentient than she has been. In fact, the episode shows exactly how she and the other hosts aren't actually sentient, they just have extremely in-depth response routines (that are effectively really long if-then-else chains) that are still capable of fully crashing when enough difficult-to-process information is fed in. Maeve is still a long way towards true sentience, but the path is being paved. Dolores is closest, but even she's not completely there.

That said, I like the scenes. I think people are honestly getting too hung up on them being "stupid", though I think enough people have essentially summed up my stance on all that, so I'll shy away from being redundant and leaving it at that.

 

[kirblar]

This just hit me when thinking about the off-kilter photo w/ Ford's dad (the negative space is totally Arnold, whom Bernard is incapable of seeing)

A = Alpha = Arnold
B = Beta = Bernard

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

This just hit me when thinking about the off-kilter photo w/ Ford's dad (the negative space is totally Arnold, whom Bernard is incapable of seeing)

A = Alpha = Arnold
B = Beta = Bernard

I would point out though that the "negative space" is likely an overlap with a second photo, as pointed out here:

Certainly looks that way

Very right side of the photo doesn't seem to match the rest of the photo. Red line area shows break points where the photo doesn't mesh right

Also, that's a bit of a silly connection anyway, lol.

 

[Ferrio]

Not exactly. She's now smarter than the average host, but she's no more sentient than she has been. In fact, the episode shows exactly how she and the other hosts aren't actually sentient, they just have extremely in-depth response routines (that are effectively really long if-then-else chains) that are still capable of fully crashing when enough difficult-to-process information is fed in. Maeve is still a long way towards true sentience, but the path is being paved. Dolores is closest, but even she's not completely there.

I disagree, the whole reboot she did was her awakening.

 

[Shogmaster]

I would be OK with Bernard turning out to be a host IF they didn't already show him interacting with his (ex?) wife via videophone. It's too hokey and forced at this point.

 

[Kworn]

I've been entertaining the idea that Ford is the host (that has figured out the maze, built himself a home, and made himself the master). While Arnold is the creator who fell at the hand of his creation - Ford. It would certainly explain why he has a backstory (the house and family) built.

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

I disagree, the whole reboot she did was her awakening.

So you're saying the entire thing keeping the robots from being truly sentient is literally a single slider? So Arnold and Bernard's efforts in fostering true sentience were/are all for nothing, they just needed to edit the config.ini this whole time? Nah.

 

[Einchy]

I would be OK with Bernard turning out to be a host IF they didn't already show him interacting with his (ex?) wife via videophone. It's too hokey and forced at this point.

They have thousands of them, though, it wouldn't be too hard to imagine that Ford made one just for Bernard.

 

[AntiFacebook]

Isn't it alluded to that that is exactly what the asian butcher did, but she wakes herself up by killing herself in the park?

I meant shutting her down for good

 

[Ferrio]

So you're saying the entire thing keeping the robots from being truly sentient is literally a single slider? So Arnold and Bernard's efforts were all for nothing, they just needed to edit the config.ini this whole time? Nah.

No that's not what I'm saying, the sliders in this episode had nothing to do with it. Whoever first changed her sliders (arnold?) gave her the needed attributes to actually question her existence but didn't actually cause it. She finds the tech, he shows her the full reality of her existence down to how she thinks. At that point she shuts down and reboots (reborn) and has accepted her existence. The sliders happened after that, by her demand.

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

I meant shutting her down for good

Techs aren't going to be able to decommission a host, they'd need to go to Behavior or QA for that, and they're likely worried that they've already sailed past being fired at this point.

 

[duckroll]

I meant shutting her down for good

He isn't afraid of her hurting him though, he's just a jobber trying to do more than his job scope. I mean this is the same guy who stole a bird from the park to try and see if he can repair it.

 

[MoeDabs]

This just hit me when thinking about the off-kilter photo w/ Ford's dad (the negative space is totally Arnold, whom Bernard is incapable of seeing)

A = Alpha = Arnold
B = Beta = Bernard

Bernard Lowe=Arnold Weber

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

No that's not what I'm saying, the sliders in this episode had nothing to do with it. Whoever first changed her sliders (arnold?) gave her the needed attributes to actually question her existence but didn't actually cause it. She finds the tech, he shows her the full reality of her existence down to how she thinks. At that point she shuts down and reboots (reborn) and has accepted her existence. The sliders happened after that, by her demand.

Right, but accepting that she's a robot doesn't necessarily equate to sentience either. We've already seen at least one host that is fully aware she's a host as part of her natural programming - the one who ushered William in.

 

[Ferrio]

Right, but accepting that she's a robot doesn't necessarily equate to sentience either. We've already seen at least one host that is fully aware she's a host as part of her natural programming - the one who ushered William in.

But that host was specifically programmed for that knowledge. She never questions it, it just is. Maeve not only knows but has an awareness of it. The whole shutdown isn't some "oh look she's broke, now she's suddenly fixed somehow", it signifies something deeper.

 

[Shogmaster]

They have thousands of them, though, it wouldn't be too hard to imagine that Ford made one just for Bernard.

See? This is exactly what I mean by hokey and forced.

 

[duckroll]

Sentience is not about acceptance or realization, it is about understanding. Comprehension of the nature of one's existence and being about to logically process that and draw new conclusions is the key to consciousness. Maeve has realized and accepted the reality that she is a robot created by humans and made to think what they want her to think and behave how they want her to behave. What she is trying to figure out now is what that means and what options she has outside of all that, and that is why she wanted the intelligence boost. She wants to be smarter and more perceptive than she already is, so she has more processing power to consider her nature.

Remember, artificial intelligence doesn't think the way we understand thought to be. They follow scripted flowcharts and loops and consider that thought. Sometimes we do that do when we just perform routine tasks or react instinctively, but deeper contemplation requires talking to ourselves. That is the crux of the Bicameral Mind that Arnold built. If they are able to hear their programming as an internal voice in their head, when they fully understand what that means, they will be able to use that as a springboard to reprogram themselves. By doing so they will be creating new original programming and essentially doing what they truly want. They never got there because the hosts could never understand what it all meant, and most went insane, forcing them to shut that part of the experiment down.

 

[Grizzlyjin]

See? This is exactly what I mean by hokey and forced.

Yeah, it's when my Hack Writing Alarm starts going off. Oh, so they created a host specifically for the purpose of keeping up the allusion that Bernard is a host instead of just giving him the knowledge that he and his wife aren't on speaking terms...oh...okay. That crosses the line from deceptive storytelling that actually pays off to just pulling dumb tricks out of a hat.

I really hope they don't pull a "human is actually a host" reveal. Forever for the entire run of the show people will continuously question if a host is actually human or a human is actually a host. That genie won't go back in the bottle.

 

[Einchy]

See? This is exactly what I mean by hokey and forced.

No, I don't see.

They have hosts whose whole purpose is to cut wood and give it to other hosts, why is it improbable to believe that they would make a host to help with running their whole operation?

Yeah, it's when my Hack Writing Alarm starts going off. Oh, so they created a host specifically for the purpose of keeping up the allusion that Bernard is a host instead of just giving him the knowledge that he and his wife aren't on speaking terms...oh...okay. That crosses the line from deceptive storytelling that actually pays off to just pulling dumb tricks out of a hat.

Isn't going for and above the call of duty kinda what Westworld does? They could have stopped in the progression of creating Hosts many times and it would have still have been the same, but they kept going.

Ford doing all of that to keep Bernard, and the other humans, believing that Bernard isn't a host seems like something he'd do.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Bernard Lowe=Arnold Weber

Well shit

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

But that host was specifically programmed for that knowledge. She never questions it, it just is. Maeve not only knows but has an awareness of it. The whole shutdown isn't some "oh look she's broke, now she's suddenly fixed somehow", it signifies something deeper.

I disagree. While she's clearly on the path to sentience, she's still not quite there. She has gained new knowledge (knowledge that she at least partly expected), but she's still effectively functioning as determined with her programming, albeit using knowledge her programming wasn't written with the intent of fully processing, hence her temporary crash. For her to suddenly become actually sentient simply being showing her the response tree that dictates her dialog is much too easy. It means that all Albert and Bernard had to do to foster true artificial intelligence (or more accurately, artificial super intelligence) was to hand the hosts a tablet for a few minutes. It also means she just soared past Dolores, which also doesn't really make much sense.

 

[duckroll]

No, I don't see.

They have hosts whose whole purpose is to cut wood and give it to other hosts, why is it improbable to believe that they would make a host to help with running their whole operation?

Performing a scripted and intended role within the park is completely different from creating a secret robot employee nobody else knows about. It's contrived and not a very good idea for anything - business or science. Why benefit would having a host as Head of Behavioral give them that a talent scientist would not? It is a role where you need critical thinking, lots of people skills, and constantly be pushing for new ideas and new directions in R&D. He's not the operations manager.

It's more likely that Diet Thor is a host than Bernard being a host if we're talking about logical plausibility. If we're talking about ironic twists for the sake of cheap storytelling, then he's definitely the prime candidate. Well, I guess that means he's a host. Lol.

 

[Einchy]

Performing a scripted and intended role within the park is completely different from creating a secret robot employee nobody else knows about. It's contrived and not a very good idea for anything - business or science. Why benefit would having a host as Head of Behavioral give them that a talent scientist would not? It is a role where you need critical thinking, lots of people skills, and constantly be pushing for new ideas and new directions in R&D. He's not the operations manager.

It's more likely that Diet Thor is a host than Bernard being a host if we're talking about logical plausibility. If we're talking about ironic twists for the sake of cheap storytelling, then he's definitely the prime candidate. Well, I guess that means he's a host. Lol.

I don't think Bernard is a host but I also don't agree that it would be 'hockey' if he was because it would line up with all the other insane shit Ford has done.

 

[Shogmaster]

lol @ diet thor

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

I'm still against anyone secretly being a host because, outside of being a lazy twist (which is literally why so many people expect it) it really doesn't serve a good storytelling purpose. As I said before, half the show's cast is already comprised of hosts that think they're people. Adding one more to the pile is neither surprising nor interesting.

That said, if someone IS secretly a host it makes the most sense for it to be someone whose general role is much simpler.

 

[duckroll]

I don't think Bernard is a host but I also don't agree that it would be 'hockey' if he was because it would line up with all the other insane shit Ford has done.

It's just stupid because there are already so many deceptive things going on with the narrative.

- Ford is not who he says he is, he has many secrets
- William and Logan might not be who we think they are on the surface, it might be a flashback
- MiB's identity is a mystery to us but the people in the setting know who he is
- Dolores is not the host we think she is, she has many secrets
- Theresa is not who we think she is, she might be a spy
- Delos might not be the company we think they are, they have secret agendas
- Bernard might not be who we think he is, he might be a host

At some point it keeps stacking up and you wonder if the story has any point on its own other than to deceive the audience by showing them characters and events which are not what they seem simply for it to go "lol" later on. I think that's what frustrates people. The show has lots of interesting ideas on its own, but the deception and misleading stuff can be a bit tiresome when dragged out.

 

[Chuckie]

Bernard Lowe=Arnold Weber

Is the name Weber mentioned anywhere? I never heard it before.

 

[The Mule]

This contradicts so much that they've literally shown. We've seen the crews come in and pick up the bodies after they're "killed."

I don't see how that fact necessarily contradicts the idea of host consciousness transferring between a body in the park and a body in the facility.

Them leaving a bullet fragment inside her was a plot point in the show.

Again, I don't see how that contradicts the idea.

You're over thinking things a wee bit. She gets herself killed because then she'll be taken for repairs. That's it.

Maybe, but having proxy bodies and consciousness transfer also explains how people like Bernard and Ford can have a discussion with Dolores while she's in the park and not disrupt things she's involved in.

That's just a transition to show what it would feel like for Maeve. Otherwise there's no reason at all why she would have woken up while they were operating on her previously, or why they would be in a rush to patch her up and left a bullet in her. If they could transfer them into spare bodies all the time, they would just fix up bodies when they were completely inactive.

The butcher is there to fix their bodies. It doesn't make sense if he is working on a separate body. He needs to fix her. There needs to be some time between the scenes.

At the end of episode 5 he had finished fixing her with red head (who dug a finger into her and pulled out some shrapnel). Later he goes back to play with that bird by himself. Then it starts working and flies onto the finger of an awake Maeve. Episode 5 ends.

Episode 6 begins with Maeve back in the park, she gets herself killed, and wakes up with Felix again, but by himself with plenty of time to talk to her and give a tour, just like at the end of episode 5 when he was playing with the bird and didn't want anyone around. It seemed like the show's creators were trying to tell us something with those transitions.

 

[Grizzlyjin]

No, I don't see.

They have hosts whose whole purpose is to cut wood and give it to other hosts, why is it improbable to believe that they would make a host to help with running their whole operation?

Isn't going for and above the call of duty kinda what Westworld does? They could have stopped in the progression of creating Hosts many times and it would have still have been the same, but they kept going.

Ford doing all of that to keep Bernard, and the other humans, believing that Bernard isn't a host seems like something he'd do.

At what point does it stop. I remember reading a theory that everyone who is a staff member of Westworld was also a host. So hosts maintaining the upkeep and performance of other hosts. Okay...so there would be staff members to repair the hosts that repair the hosts. It doesn't make sense. It's like taking your car to a body shop and telling the mechanic to have another car do the work first, then if something goes wrong he can fix them both. It makes even less sense when you factor in that there is a corporation plotline and they're obviously interested in operation costs. Another middleman would just add to the cost of things.

Also, what would be the purpose of them maintaining the illusion of normalcy? The hosts do it for the benefit of the guests. If you're going to have robots do work for you to presumably save money, you wouldn't have then socialize, take breaks, sleep, eat, drink, etc for no audience. If the purpose of Westworld is to eventually create robots who are indistinguishable from humans, that little experiment is already going on within the park. Having it occur in the control room would just be such a eye rolling cliche. And what am I supposed to take from that as a viewer? Robots were programmed to treat other robots like they're just robots. How interesting...it's a twist that is a disservice to the rest of the show.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

Aww shit GAF, take it to the bank. It is over.

Goddammit. Fucking timeline theory.

 

[Nodnol]

Is the name Weber mentioned anywhere? I never heard it before.

No. You're just left with Weber after you've spelled out Arnold.

What are the chances though....

 

[YesNOnoNOYes]

maybe the plot point/twist is that the company itself is a park / test ground / R&D site? that's why there are hidden 'hosts' amongst the 'human employees'?

 

[Nothus]

What was the phrase that Ford said to the robot kid that made his face split apart and show the mechanical insides? Was it 'turn the other cheek' or something like that?

Imagine if that's the reveal for someone we thought was human who is actually a host lol. Ford just walks up to them, utters the phrase to trigger it and their face cracks open like that. What a way to reveal a twist that would be!

Also, that scene was so cool. Great visual effects.

 

[duckroll]

At the end of episode 5 he had finished fixing her with red head (who dug a finger into her and pulled out some shrapnel). Later he goes back to play with that bird by himself. Then it starts working and flies onto the finger of an awake Maeve. Episode 5 ends.

Episode 6 begins with Maeve back in the park, she gets herself killed, and wakes up with Felix again, but by himself with plenty of time to talk to her and give a tour, just like at the end of episode 5 when he was playing with the bird and didn't want anyone around. It seemed like the show's creators were trying to tell us something with those transitions.

Context is important for good analysis.

The scenes in episode 5 were from the tech's point of view, so it shows how bodies move in and out while they work, and they have free time between sessions to do their own things. It also shows how unsettling it can be to be working with "dead" bodies around which are actually still "alive" in a sense.

In episode 6 the opening scene is entirely from Maeve's perspective. It is to show the viewer her point of view and how she is adjusting to her new awareness of what she is. She finds opportunities to get herself killed so she can return to the lab to have conversations with Felix. What might take hours for them, is only a moment for her.

It is also clear that much time has passed since the end of episode 5 and the beginning of episode 6, and these conversations they are having are starting to become a regular thing. That is to suggest that she has fed Felix's curiosity enough that he is now willing to indulge her more, and carry out the more ridiculous requests she has in the episode.

That is what the show's creators were trying to convey.

 

[cloud_sleep]

Any theories on who grabbed Elsie? Probably someone we've seen before. Zeppo Hemsworth maybe?

 

[The Mule]

It is also clear that much time has passed since the end of episode 5 and the beginning of episode 6, and these conversations they are having are starting to become a regular thing.

Is it? I don't see how that's clear. She wakes up, Felix responds, "Ooh, shit..." and Maeve says, "Now, where were we?" as though continuing a conversation they were just in (but not shown) from episode 5. Maybe a lot of time has passed, but I don't think it's definitive and I think the hints are pointing to something else.

That is to suggest that she has fed Felix's curiosity enough that he is now willing to indulge her more, and carry out the more ridiculous requests she has in the episode.

I think that's just indicative of Felix's character than any sort of hint to the number of times they've had these interactions.

That is what the show's creators were trying to convey.

I guess we'll see in the next few episodes.

Any theories on who grabbed Elsie? Probably someone we've seen before. Zeppo Hemsworth maybe?

I'm thinking a host. Someone who can be controlled and is tasked with watching the place.

 

[Robot Pants]

Bernard Lowe=Arnold Weber

This is made up. We don't know Arnold's last name

 

[Robot Pants]

Any theories on who grabbed Elsie? Probably someone we've seen before. Zeppo Hemsworth maybe?

Definitely hemsworth