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Westworld - Live in Your World, Play in Ours - Sundays on HBO
- Thread starter RatskyWatsky
- Start date
Arnoldddd
He warned her very clearly that if she fucked with him he'd deal with her and he did. From his talks with her, it sounds like he's done this many times.
He warned her not to get in his way. She got in his way.
More_Badass
Member
Ford's "new narrative" isn't going to end well for Delos, is it?
SwiftDeath
Member
Yeah that's why I asked if we think Bernard might have been made exactly in Arnold's image or not as this show is into cheap manipulation of its audience but if that scene is Arnold separate from the Bernard host but in the image of the bernard host I'm going to be a little disappointed.
The other thing is one of the sessions has Bernard ask Dolores the last time she spoke to Arnold and she says 35 years.
Although if it was the Bernard host then maybe any talk of Arnold acting recently would be blocked to protect Bernard?
I really feel like there is a free Arnold and that Bernard is only a shadow of Arnold created by Ford, nothing more.
I'm also not really a believer that Ford is a host, he could be but it would just be creatively bankrupt at this point to have a secret host creating a secret host who creates non-secret hosts.
More_Badass
Member
Wasn't that Ford asking Dolores?
bearythebear
Member
It looked like some of the chats between Bernard and Delores were happening in the basement under the house.
But this doesn't resolve any conflict with the board. Unless there's no conflict with the board? Then what is anything. Why did that lady even exist?
Is the board elder gods? Is it a literal blood sacrifice.
SwiftDeath
Member
Maybe, I certainly could've gotten confused.
If so that would be more interesting as Arnold is likely talking with dolores outside of Fords purview
That house could've been in the park since the very beginning and those talks could legitimately be Arnold and Dolores talking before the park was even open when the basement room was not re-purposed into a makeshift host lab.
All conjecture though
I think that was all a show to kill her. Board is owned by Ford for all we know
You know the bad thing about writing a twist like this? It continues to highlight the artificiality of writing stories with large time gaps between two major events. So Dolores has been doing her loop for 30 years or so without any deviation, until -now- because the story requires it. Arnold somehow doesn't act for 30 years for some reason? But that's okay. It's more believable that something triggered Arnold to start acting now.
But Bernard as a host? He has been "working" there for at least over a decade. But somehow he has never heard of Arnold nor has he ever asked about him until now? When the audience needed to know about it? Really convenient. It doesn't seem like Ford wipes Bernard's memories at all either. It's interesting to see how the long stretches of time that gives the show more history and legacy instead feel more and more hollow. If you're not seeing it, nothing important or worthwhile happened. Heh.
Westworld is the secret sequel to Cabin in the Woods.
But Bernard as a host? He has been "working" there for at least over a decade. But somehow he has never heard of Arnold nor has he ever asked about him until now? When the audience needed to know about it? Really convenient. It doesn't seem like Ford wipes Bernard's memories at all either. It's interesting to see how the long stretches of time that gives the show more history and legacy instead feel more and more hollow. If you're not seeing it, nothing important or worthwhile happened. Heh.
Westworld is the secret sequel to Cabin in the Woods.
Hopkins and Newton are fucking killing it in this show.
That last scene brought shades of Hannibal, and the scene where he is watching the little show the Delos board put up, the gestures, like he is amused at how pathetic it all looked.
Thandie Newton has been fucking incredible.
That last scene brought shades of Hannibal, and the scene where he is watching the little show the Delos board put up, the gestures, like he is amused at how pathetic it all looked.
Thandie Newton has been fucking incredible.
Cornballer
Member
A few more interviews:
- EW: Westworld producers on that huge reveal and brutal scene
- EW with Jeffrey Wright
- IGN with Jeffrey Wright
- NY Mag with Jeffrey Wright
- EW: Westworld producers on that huge reveal and brutal scene
- EW with Jeffrey Wright
- IGN with Jeffrey Wright
- NY Mag with Jeffrey Wright
SwiftDeath
Member
Bernard could have asked about Arnold many times, who knows he might ask about it daily. He's a host, he'll have a loop just like the rest. At the end of the day the stuff he doesn't need to remember goes away.
It wasn't until the revelries patch did the hosts start to remember past events.
Switch Back 9
a lot of my threads involve me fucking up somehow. Perhaps I'm a moron?
Hopkins channeling Hannibal Lecter hard in this episode. Fuck me is he ever good at playing villains, I was enthralled during that entire speech.
And Petyr is that parks MiB
SwiftDeath
Member
Actually did the Boards little show highlight something interesting about the park mechanics?
They coded either Clementine to see the other host as human or coded the other host to present as human.
That suggests that hosts can easily be fooled regarding other hosts
They coded either Clementine to see the other host as human or coded the other host to present as human.
That suggests that hosts can easily be fooled regarding other hosts
More_Badass
Member
The Man In Black triggered it. He likely planted the picture and the gun. The gun is the gun Dolores first used all those years ago
Thus Bernard not knowing about Arnold till now, till his legacy began anew. And it's not Bernard can actually know or hear anything. That's all controlled and modulated due to him being a host
As for this "When the audience needed to know about it? Really convenient"...well yeah....that's basic storytelling. Audience always tends to drop in the characters' lives just when the conflict and drama is starting. The aliens attack just when the family is separated so they have a goal of reuniting? The shark attacks just when the town's tourist season is beginning? The down-on-his-luck chem teacher happens to tag along with his DEA brother-in-law on a drug bust?
You can't MRI yourself tho a host wouldn't be able to read the results.
What does it even mean to be in his way? What path is he on.
What does it even mean to be in his way? What path is he on.
You wouldn't be able to read the results correctly.
Maybe he is a host, and he's building an army?
The patch doesn't affect Bernard, he's not part of the system, he's Ford's personal experiment. No one else in the company knows Bernard is a host. If he started to act weird people would have noticed. That's what we're led to believe. There's no "loop" here.
greendomo's ghost
Member
Definitely think those are Arnold/Delores chats set in the past, and I think Arnold's sons death is what led him to kill himself. But maybe he preserved his consciousness somehow, and possibly his son's, in a cryogenic stasis if you will, waiting for advancements in the hosts to get to a point where he and his son could live again. I think there's some of Arnold in Bernard, and Ford isn't as in control of him as he thinks.
You didn't listen to him? He just wanted to tell his damn stories man.
FlutterPuffs
Member
God at the Bernard Lowe = Arnold Weber anagram.
Would be funny if the Delos name was inspired after Dolores and owned by MiB who buys Westworld years after his adventure there.
Could be a good reason why the staff gives him the power to do what he wants.
Would be funny if the Delos name was inspired after Dolores and owned by MiB who buys Westworld years after his adventure there.
Could be a good reason why the staff gives him the power to do what he wants.
Grizzlyjin
Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
I've hated the idea of Bernard being a host for the longest time, but I at least appreciate them heavily foreshadowing with the opening of this episode.
Hopkins is doing a wonderful job here. That last scene was extremely tense. The sad thing is that all the storylines are losing steam for me. This show was doing some unique things when it started but it's reveling in the cliche at this point. And I know, everything has been done before. But now we've gotten to the point where even the execution isn't that unique. It's almost as if everything in the show has flipped. Where before they enjoyed subverting audience expectations on the premise, now it is just giving us exactly what you would expect. Evil Lady Robot. Human That Is Really A Host. Starcrossed Human/Robot Love. Maybe I'm alone in seeing this, but the past few episode feel like the intention of the show changed. It really bothered me in Episode 6 and it's still lingering here with Episode 7. So it isn't just a lull in the story, the actual direction of the storylines just feel incredibly bland now. Which is super disappointing because I absolutely loved some of the stuff they did in Episode 5.
Tell me I'm not crazy, it feels like this suddenly morphed into a different type of show. Even in the inclusion of action sequences seem more artificial than they were before.
Hopkins is doing a wonderful job here. That last scene was extremely tense. The sad thing is that all the storylines are losing steam for me. This show was doing some unique things when it started but it's reveling in the cliche at this point. And I know, everything has been done before. But now we've gotten to the point where even the execution isn't that unique. It's almost as if everything in the show has flipped. Where before they enjoyed subverting audience expectations on the premise, now it is just giving us exactly what you would expect. Evil Lady Robot. Human That Is Really A Host. Starcrossed Human/Robot Love. Maybe I'm alone in seeing this, but the past few episode feel like the intention of the show changed. It really bothered me in Episode 6 and it's still lingering here with Episode 7. So it isn't just a lull in the story, the actual direction of the storylines just feel incredibly bland now. Which is super disappointing because I absolutely loved some of the stuff they did in Episode 5.
Tell me I'm not crazy, it feels like this suddenly morphed into a different type of show. Even in the inclusion of action sequences seem more artificial than they were before.
SwiftDeath
Member
They've mentioned that it takes 1000s of hrs of coding to make one host so unless Ford can capture a person's subconscious and then alter it to his end that seems unlikely.
Curious what Bernard is. Fully host code written by Ford?
SwiftDeath
Member
Actually thinking back Dolores Clothes basement scenes must be old flashbacks with Arnold
Previous episode had host boy Ford admitting to killing the dog because of a voice he heard presumably Arnold's meaning the host abnormal behavior is almost certainly not Fords handiwork
Previous episode had host boy Ford admitting to killing the dog because of a voice he heard presumably Arnold's meaning the host abnormal behavior is almost certainly not Fords handiwork
Buba Big Guns
Banned
Really liked the episode. Bernard being a host was really obvious, but that reveal was amazing.
So is the Delos board chick a host too?
So is the Delos board chick a host too?
Context is everything though. The issue isn't that the audience is dropped into a moment of conflict. The problem is when storytelling wants to create an illusion that there is a history to a place or a person, but doesn't work for it. That's why this mainly a problem that's common in stories which like having a long gap between important events but leave the space between as blank slates. That's always artificial.
It's like those RPGs where they talk about an evil demon lord who was sealed away 500 years ago, and the world has been at peace... until now. The best types of those stories are the ones where the focus isn't on the hows and whys of the demon lord being sealed away, but what the world was like in these 500 years and the changes and history the world has had, and what it means to have that disrupted.
Here, they're very much taking after the format where the first and last events are the most important and interesting, and they want to show the audience that and contrast it, but ultimately I feel the 30 years inbetween are going to feel hollow. Every time someone talks about the past, it's 30 years ago. The best bits of the history of Westworld are when they talk about the past incarnations of hosts. But they're basically resulted to short moments which so far have no bearing on the actual world building. What' worse is that while some of the hosts at least have a history to them, the humans really don't. Ford has been doing "nothing" for decades until he finally got bored I guess? Pisslord has been writing narratives for "years" without Ford having any input, he doesn't seem to have a writing team or any friends, he's just playing the asshole when the story needs him to.
I think there's a lot to critique when it comes to character development and world building here, because they clearly want to build this very precise puzzle that fits together, but I feel it's at the expense of having depth in the actual setting and it feeling real. It doesn't feel real to me, it feels entertaining because there are mysteries and crazy scifi buzzwords. Maeve's character arc is the most developed and well executed thing on the show so far, and that's being stonewalled now because it was moving too fast. Lol.
StopMakingSense
Member
Yeah that's what I am thinking.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Remember how Bernard was always analyzing Theresa's body language? Perhaps he was doing that in order to construct a personality profile just in case Ford went through with his bodysnatcher plan. Creeeeeepy.
What does it mean?
edit: nevermind
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trompe-l'œil
What does it mean?
edit: nevermind
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trompe-l'œil
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
It should be also noted that in the scene last episode where Ford is talking to young Robert and asking why he killed the dog, it opens with the 3D printing tank on the left side of the frame. That should have been a hint, as we've never seen that before.
Jex
Member
100% Arnold.
Shogmaster
Member
Well Fuck. A. Duck.
Just finished Ep7. Whoever called Bernard as host, well done, Dr. Ford has entered full Dr. Lecter mode.
Just finished Ep7. Whoever called Bernard as host, well done, Dr. Ford has entered full Dr. Lecter mode.
I'm still not "in" on the dual timeline theory, but I would imagine that Bernard being a host does seal a lot of the cracks I saw in it, especially if Bernard is modeled after Arnold - which seems extremely likely, considering that all of Ford's custom hosts that we've seen seem to be modeled after people from his life, along with the rest of the evidence.
I'll probably do some rewatching in the next week or two, at least before the finale, to see if any of the problems are still there. I suspect that Bernard being Arnold and the existence of Remote Diagnostics Stations or whatever they're called will probably be enough to get me on board. I seem to remember him being a link in the chain I thought they were breaking more than once.
Stil can't say I'm a huge fan of it structurally, though. Keeping track of something like that from scene to scene over the course of an entire season rather than just a movie is at least as laborious as it is clever. Struggling to remember what to recontextualize defeats the exercise, and having to sit through the show twice to get an accurate grasp of who is who doing what when isn't exactly a badge of honor either. Going back and rejiggering your view of Bernard in every scene is plenty on its own, having to do that with every character across two timelines is over the line.
I'll probably do some rewatching in the next week or two, at least before the finale, to see if any of the problems are still there. I suspect that Bernard being Arnold and the existence of Remote Diagnostics Stations or whatever they're called will probably be enough to get me on board. I seem to remember him being a link in the chain I thought they were breaking more than once.
Stil can't say I'm a huge fan of it structurally, though. Keeping track of something like that from scene to scene over the course of an entire season rather than just a movie is at least as laborious as it is clever. Struggling to remember what to recontextualize defeats the exercise, and having to sit through the show twice to get an accurate grasp of who is who doing what when isn't exactly a badge of honor either. Going back and rejiggering your view of Bernard in every scene is plenty on its own, having to do that with every character across two timelines is over the line.
molnizzle
Member
In this era of binge streaming, re-watching and theory discussions it's kinda perfect. If everything actually fits together it could potentially deliver on Lost's promise. That's exciting as shit to me!
Mysteries > everything
I finally figured out what has disappointed me about this show: it has no point of view.
It's content to tell a simple sci-fi story, and complicate it by wrapping it in timelines and twists and other distractions. That's fine and I'm enjoying it okay. But that "simplicity" (a silly term for a show this needlessly opaque) prevents it from ever being great. The showrunners have no take on the material.
The premise of Westworld lends itself to potentially meaningful sci-fi, so I admit to being disappointed that it's merely entertaining.
(And also super hacked together with Frankenstein parts from before and after the stoppage. I'm curious what the original ambitions for this show were.)
It's content to tell a simple sci-fi story, and complicate it by wrapping it in timelines and twists and other distractions. That's fine and I'm enjoying it okay. But that "simplicity" (a silly term for a show this needlessly opaque) prevents it from ever being great. The showrunners have no take on the material.
The premise of Westworld lends itself to potentially meaningful sci-fi, so I admit to being disappointed that it's merely entertaining.
(And also super hacked together with Frankenstein parts from before and after the stoppage. I'm curious what the original ambitions for this show were.)
What if you said "doesn't look like anything to me" when you saw the results?