Support NeoGAF

[The_Lump]

The CPU has nothing to do with the display, what powers the pixels and drives the display is the display adapter, this is what we call a graphics processing unit, or GPU.

Way too broad strokes there! It has plenty to do with the display.

However, in context it's clear what you mean

 

[z0m3le]

Way too broad strokes there! It has plenty to do with the display.

However, in context it's clear what you mean

Yes my quote was about resolution, whether it is 240p to 4k the CPU doesn't work any harder AFAIK. The GPU is fed information from the CPU, so they do work in concert of course but most people won't understand that, so I made it cut and dry.

 

[Eradicate]

The CPU has nothing to do with the display, what powers the pixels and drives the display is the display adapter, this is what we call a graphics processing unit, or GPU.

Ah, thank you for the explanation!

Are there particular GPUs out there that play best with, say, an A53? I'm admittedly ignorant. Just trying to see what Nintendo may go with. I could see 540p basically being the resolution, but I'm curious what type of power would then be available after everything is said and done. I'm not expecting a Ferrari from Nintendo, by the way, just considering the possibilities.

(I think the handheld will be $200. Just throwing that out there! Nintendo wants people around the world to smile, and that'd make me happy.)

 

[z0m3le]

Ah, thank you for the explanation!

Are there particular GPUs out there that play best with, say, an A53? I'm admittedly ignorant. Just trying to see what Nintendo may go with. I could see 540p basically being the resolution, but I'm curious what type of power would then be available after everything is said and done. I'm not expecting a Ferrari from Nintendo, by the way, just considering the possibilities.

(I think the handheld will be $200. Just throwing that out there! Nintendo wants people around the world to smile, and that'd make me happy.)

Sure, I'll give you the "expected" run down from me. If they go 14nm and with AMD for the GPU, I think we will see a 128GFLOPs polaris part. This would at 540p perform slightly better than Wii U with more modern features and have about twice the polygon throughput.

For CPU, I think they will actually use the same CPUs in the Console and the Handheld. 4 A72 cores are 8mm^2 on 14nm, the new low power process Samsung has would mean that 4 A72 cores clocked at 1.5ghz would only cost 1.3 watts, the GPU should come in around 1 watt, and I think they can use A53 cores for the OS. This would give them the ability to easily port even PS4 games to the handheld.

Coming back a bit to where I expect the CPU, I think a dual core A72 clocked at 1.5ghz with 4 A53 cores clocked at 1.5ghz is exactly where I see them, this would be a tiny chip, about 6mm^2 and run about 1 watt.

 

[Lonely1]

And halve that power for a rough approximation for a 28nm system, which is still on the cards.
I personally expect ~60-80Gflops for the GPU.

 

[z0m3le]

And halve that power for a rough approximation for a 28nm system, which is still on the cards.
I personally expect ~60-80Gflops for the GPU.

60 to 80 gflops would still be a drastic increase over vita, but I don't see them going with 28nm, 14nm is mature, it is competitively priced, works out historically with the 2 year gap that GameCube and Wii both experienced for their process adoption and saves Nintendo power consumption which is something they obviously care about, not to mention that it is cheaper than 28nm starting next year since 10nm chips will have taken over the mobile market and these 14nm fabs have huge capacities that won't be used. 28nm is old, and doesn't make sense, even Wii U's old process had a reason (it was the smallest process NEC could make and they produced the embedded memory and the gpu)

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Id pay 250 if it hit the right notes

We just have so little to go on right now

$250 handhelds have a really good track record so far.

 

[DrROBschiz]

$250 handhelds have a really good track record so far.

They are going to hit 199

No doubt about it

 

[Lonely1]

60 to 80 gflops would still be a drastic increase over vita, but I don't see them going with 28nm, 14nm is mature, it is competitively priced, works out historically with the 2 year gap that GameCube and Wii both experienced for their process adoption and saves Nintendo power consumption which is something they obviously care about, not to mention that it is cheaper than 28nm starting next year since 10nm chips will have taken over the mobile market and these 14nm fabs have huge capacities that won't be used. 28nm is old, and doesn't make sense, even Wii U's old process had a reason (it was the smallest process NEC could make and they produced the embedded memory and the gpu)

I know, Vita's GPU at max speed (222Mhz) would be around 27 Gflops. Am I wrong?

 

[Thraktor]

You realize how disingenuous it is to compare no backwards compatibility to offering it on a "unified" platform and then breaking up a part of that platform into hardware-specific pieces, right?

I mean, especially considering everyone's favourite talking points about the Wii U and 3DS failures were how unclear their marketing message was to the reality of the product, right?

I just want to be sure you're aware that you've compared apples to a slice of moldy bread.

The selling point of the NX isn't that both devices play every single Nintendo game ever created out of the box*, it's that if you buy an NX game, you can play it on both the console and/or the handheld. In fact, that's not even it, the selling point is that, by integrating their hardware devices into one ecosystem, they can release more games for each of their devices. Most of their customers are just going to buy one device or the other (mostly the handheld), and they want to make sure they have as many games as possible to tempt people in, regardless of which form-factor they prefer. Being able to buy a game once on eShop and play it on both devices is pretty much just a bonus on top of that.

*Which, by the way, is pretty much impossible. Unless you expect the NX home controller to also act as a Wii remote + nunchuck, and you expect them to cram a PowerPC chip in the handheld to allow it to play GC, Wii and Wii U games (never even mind how you expect to be able to control Wii games on the handheld).

I think you need a refresher on just how much money Virtual Console has made Nintendo with its first-party titles alone. Sony might not want to throw money after it, but Nintendo sure as hell would, because they've made more money out of it than Sony could hope to achieve, they know the value of it, so long as it's done right.

Do you expect their VC profits to be entirely centred on Wii U games? There's nothing to stop Nintendo supporting NES, SNES, N64, GB, GBC, GBA games out of the box on both consoles, which will cover the considerably majority of profits Nintendo would expect to make on the service. The handheld could play DS and 3DS games out of the box, and the home console could play GC games out of the box, with Wii and Wii U games requiring peripherals.

It's not exactly something vastly confusing for customers. It's not like people are going to expect the NX handheld to play Wii games.

And this is without discussing the negative aspects of their likely-intended marketing message, something Nintendo seriously can't afford to screw up again, or at least not as blatantly or intentionally as what you're proposing would.

Nintendo's failed messaging with the Wii U had nothing to do with BC/VC and everything to do with the gamepad. Watch Nintendo's 2006 E3 conference and see how easily people understood the concept of the Wii remote. All they had to do was show a quick video of people playing Wii tennis, golf and bowling, and the appeal was obvious.

Fast forward to the 2012 E3 conference, though, and watch Eguchi attempt to explain how Luigi's Ghost Mansion works (it's about 1 hour in). Nintendoland makes excellent use of the gamepad, and it's a better game than Wii Sports in pretty much every way, but that can't overcome the fact that it's inherently difficult to explain to people the advantages the gamepad offers. Add to this the fact that multiple players needed to use different controllers, and you've got an interface that is possibly the most confusing of all time, coming after probably the most intuitive controller of all time.

No, they attempted and failed to sell people on a controller with a screen in it being a marquee feature of a console with last-gen graphics for $350. There's a bit of a difference, that burden doesn't fall to the Gamepad alone.

And you think the controller screen had nothing to do with the $350 price?

They don't use it for all that much more on the DS and 3DS either, but that didn't stop them. So.............

See the above example.

The 3DS was coming after the 150 million selling DS, so they tried to imitate the DS as much as possible (just look at the logo). The Wii U hasn't even sold one tenth of that yet. Besides, the 3DS wasn't an attempt to create a long-running hardware-agnostic games platform. It was very firmly developed in the old school of pressing reset every 5 years or so and starting from scratch.

Except, y'know, I don't want to ALWAYS play on a screen that isn't my TV. Nor do I wish to buy a $200+ device just for that function alone. And neither will anyone else.

Actually, about five times as many people want to play Nintendo games on a screen that isn't their TV versus a screen that is their TV, judging by 3DS/Wii U sales figures, so you're quite definitely in the minority on this one.

Actually, that overlap is minimal to non-existent. GAF is not an indicator of the larger market. Most 3DS owners don't own a home Nintendo console. Just need that clarified.

Well of course most 3DS owners don't own a Wii U. It's statistically impossible (unless the average 3DS owner owns like 4 3DS's). But what I think is safe to say is that the set of Wii U owners who care about Wii BC are likely to also own a 3DS. And assuming the handheld NX sells more than the home console (statistically extremely likely), then I would argue that the (small) group of NX home console owners who care about Wii U BC are generally going to be Nintendo fans and are quite likely to own a NX handheld anyway.

Where's the touch screen you'd need to play those DS games if both screens are on the TV? So now you're going to have them say "yes, we have backwards compatibility for our most successful game hardware ever!.... except you can't play on your home console, and I hope you like to squint on your handheld!"

When did I say the home console should play DS and 3DS games? Why would people expect it to? Do you think the same people are going to expect to play Wii and Wii U games on the handheld?

I know Nintendo have released some DS games on Wii U, but given the small number of titles released I wouldn't be surprised if it was simply a way to explore how well dual-screen games translate to a single touchscreen (which it turns out is pretty well).

Whether or not something is commercially viable depends greatly on its messaging, which is completely thrown into jeopardy by your proposal advocating against it.

But as I explained earlier, Nintendo's success in selling home games consoles is directly correlated to how intuitive the system's interface is. Their messaging is more complicated (and less likely to succeed) the more time they have to spend explaining just how to play the thing. The logical deduction from that is that they should make the interface for the NX as simple and intuitive as possible, and placing a screen on a controller goes in completely the opposite direction from that.

In fact, even aside from that, I think Nintendo's messaging should be distanced as far away from the Wii U as possible. If they have another controller screen it's going to immediately be seen as the follow up to the Wii U, and that's anything but good for the console in the eyes of the press, the public, and third party developers.

 

[10k]

No matter how powerful it'll be, Nintendo just doesn't have that reputation for high price, premium products. They've always been associated with lower cost systems. The Wii hit that beautiful spot of $250 with a compelling hook and impulse buy price. The 3DS should have been $179 to begin with but the positive reception it got at E3 2010 inflated Iwata's ego.

No way the Wii U was ever worth $350. NX console should hit $299 max for a basic unit and the handheld $199 max.

 

[ZeroMaverick]

No matter how powerful it'll be, Nintendo just doesn't have that reputation for high price, premium products. They've always been associated with lower cost systems. The Wii hit that beautiful spot of $250 with a compelling hook and impulse buy price. The 3DS should have been $179 to begin with but the positive reception it got at E3 2010 inflated Iwata's ego.

No way the Wii U was ever worth $350. NX console should hit $299 max for a basic unit and the handheld $199 max.

Yeah, this really seems like the sweet spot.

 

[Thraktor]

For CPU, I think they will actually use the same CPUs in the Console and the Handheld. 4 A72 cores are 8mm^2 on 14nm, the new low power process Samsung has would mean that 4 A72 cores clocked at 1.5ghz would only cost 1.3 watts, the GPU should come in around 1 watt, and I think they can use A53 cores for the OS. This would give them the ability to easily port even PS4 games to the handheld.

Coming back a bit to where I expect the CPU, I think a dual core A72 clocked at 1.5ghz with 4 A53 cores clocked at 1.5ghz is exactly where I see them, this would be a tiny chip, about 6mm^2 and run about 1 watt.

As I explained a few pages back, at the TDP Nintendo is likely to devote to the CPU in the NX handheld, A53 cores would actually give them more performance than A72s, even on 14nm/16nm.

60 to 80 gflops would still be a drastic increase over vita, but I don't see them going with 28nm, 14nm is mature, it is competitively priced, works out historically with the 2 year gap that GameCube and Wii both experienced for their process adoption and saves Nintendo power consumption which is something they obviously care about, not to mention that it is cheaper than 28nm starting next year since 10nm chips will have taken over the mobile market and these 14nm fabs have huge capacities that won't be used. 28nm is old, and doesn't make sense, even Wii U's old process had a reason (it was the smallest process NEC could make and they produced the embedded memory and the gpu)

The 14nm process that Nintendo would be using isn't mature. Samsung's early 14LPE process which was used pretty much exclusively for Apple and Samsung SoCs was used in shipping products this time last year, but the 14LPP process that will replace it (and is being used by AMD) will only start to see product launches in the next few months. If the NX handheld uses a 14nm SoC and launches late this year, then it's probably only about 6 months into the life of the process. That's not to say they shouldn't use 14nm (I personally think they should, but only for the handheld), but that they probably won't.

I would also be extremely surprised if 10nm chips "take over the mobile market" in 2017.

 

[Chezzymann]

I expect the handheld to be about the same power as the vita, maybe a little bit more powerful so that it can have games at the same graphical fidelity without the need to have terrible sub resolution stuff

 

[DrROBschiz]

I expect the handheld to be about the same power as the vita, maybe a little bit more powerful so that it can have games at the same graphical fidelity without the need to have terrible sub resolution stuff

It should trounce the Vita in theory. 5 years gave us at least a few advancements

 

[Chezzymann]

It should trounce the Vita in theory. 5 years gave us at least a few advancements

Wasn't the 3DS around the same level as the PSP though?

 

[DrROBschiz]

Wasn't the 3DS around the same level as the PSP though?

Im just saying even off the shelf budget components should outperform vita specs 5 years later but i could be wrong

 

[10k]

Im just saying even off the shelf budget components should outperform vita specs 5 years later but i could be wrong

Heh. Memories of this same line of thinking in the WUST threads. "Nintendo would have to try really hard to make the Wii U as weak as the PS360. Even off the shelf parts are more powerful than those". And then Nintendo proved that, yes, they could make PS360 level hardware in 2012 on purpose. Smh.

 

[Lonely1]

Wasn't the 3DS around the same level as the PSP though?

No, it wasn't.

Heh. Memories of this same line of thinking in the WUST threads. "Nintendo would have to try really hard to make the Wii U as weak as the PS360. Even off the shelf parts are more powerful than those". And then Nintendo proved that, yes, they could make PS360 level hardware in 2012 on purpose. Smh.

The differential between potential power envelopes among handhelds is much lower than between consoles.

 

[Vena]

Wasn't the 3DS around the same level as the PSP though?

No...? 3DS performance has been astroturfed surprisingly well it seems.

 

[Nightbird]

540p is more than enough.

The screen on the vita is amazing, especially compared to the 3DS, and a handheld with the same resolution but with more power is gonna do wonders.

Chasing 720p or more for handheld is similar to trying got get console games to run at 4k. Sometimes you should know when to stop.

 

[Hero of Legend]

No, it wasn't.

Isn't it though in polygon counts and textures in general? What really gives it the edge is its lighting and shading capabilities and other advanced features I think.

 

[Lonely1]

Isn't it though in polygon counts and textures in general? What really gives it the edge is its lighting and shading capabilities and other advanced features I think.

No, the PSP was particularly poly starved and didn't exactly supported advanced texture features either...

 

[Tovarisch]

Hmm, this is mildly interesting. http://www.stevenchith.com/resume/

+ Steve Rabin

Principal Software Engineer
Nintendo Technology Development
January 2016 – Present

As part of the Developer Experience group at NTD, I help develop tools, such as the Nintendo CPU Profiler, for current and next generation Nintendo platforms.

+ Tanner Stevens

Software Engineer
Nintendo
September 2014 – Present

* Moved to a new project (under NDA)
* Multi-platform C/C++ software development
* Driver development for PCI/e and DMA devices
* Software performance optimization

Not sure if there is something interesting. Maybe you'll find something else on their profile.

 

[Thraktor]

Not sure if there is something interesting. Maybe you'll find something else on their profile.

It's worth noting that the second of those (September 2014) corresponds pretty much exactly with when AMD started working on the semi-custom design which is heavily expected to be used in the NX.

Edit: PCIe is a little interesting, though. I don't think Wii U used PCIe interfaces at all, unless someone wants to correct me on that?

Edit2: Unless it's just PCIe drivers for the dev kits.

 

[Rösti]

Interesting, I didn't know Steve Rabin had joined NTD. But it's no surprise considering his background at DigiPen.

 

[Fourth Storm]

It's worth noting that the second of those (September 2014) corresponds pretty much exactly with when AMD started working on the semi-custom design which is heavily expected to be used in the NX.

Edit: PCIe is a little interesting, though. I don't think Wii U used PCIe interfaces at all, unless someone wants to correct me on that?

Edit2: Unless it's just PCIe drivers for the dev kits.

No PCIe in Wii U afaik either. There was the 60x interface w/ the CPU, SATA for the disc drive and everything else was USB.

But yeah, I suppose this could deal w/ the SDK for PCs.

 

[10k]

PCIe? NX to use AMD 290X confirmed.

 

[Fourth Storm]

I hadn't noticed this conversation going on until now, I put up my first thoughts and mockup on handheld design in the IHS thread. For form factor it would be around Vita width and height but around 3/4 that height at any single cross section, so it's easier to slide into pockets, uh, as long as they accomodate banana shapes.
Feelswise it would have a stick position similar fo holding a Vita upsidedown, which is way more comfortable for me at least.

Dpad and face buttons would be completely done away with (though I agree with you that 2 buttons would be enough if they had to compromise)
Instead there would be a pair of low profile clickable sticks or circle pads and around them a circle of 8 subtle deformations in the glass to give the physical impression of buttons, or at least directional markers, virtual buttons can be drawn here and vary per game, similar the patent drawings they wouldn't need to be at cardinal points, you could have 4 in an arc for example, or 8 all the way around if there was a need for that.
Screen would have a pair of pressure sensors built in so it can determine deliberate presses compared to the usual capacitive touch, and applying enough pressure to a virtual button could deliver a physical and audible click from a pair of actuators and speakers, and a similar effect for when a button is released. If they could get this interaction and feedback good enough, the lack of buttons wouldn't matter in most cases.

Scrolling shoulder buttons would have to be done capacitive in a handheld I think, as wheels take up a fair bit of space and you probably don't want them collecting dirt in your pockets. Towards the end of their patent a capacitive option was mentioned so it's worth considering, it also brings up extra control possibilities above scroll wheels, like pressing the button in different places for different results.

For tying the handheld control into the home console version, every console controller would have a pair of circular screens that replicated those areas from the handheld, these displays could either be streamed from the console or drawn natively by a simple low power processor and display chip, maybe similar to what the wii u gamepad has for drawing the off power TV remote, but with support for storing scripts and custom images.

Hey, sorry this has taken so long. I was all set to respond yesterday, but I just haven't had the energy to do much writing lately. I saw your mockup in the other thread, and I really like it. It's probably the closest to my expectations that I've come across. We seem to agree on some type of touch area being a better scrolling solution than mechanical wheels for a handheld.

As I've said in other posts, I do think that they'll either stick to a simple and elegant shape with the handheld and allow grips and possibly triggers to be snapped on via controller shell. I also think that they will have to redesign their analog sticks somewhat. Their current products are way to prone to slippage and the click feels terrible. No way in hell that click would be a satisfying or reliable way for Mario to jump. So they're going to have to tweak those inputs somewhat.

I can't get behind doing away with face buttons completely. Even if they have one on each side under the sticks, (think of the giant 'A' button on the Wii Remote), that might be enough.

For the home controller, I've been a bit more confounded. They may opt for a similar look, but with a capacitive touch pad surface in place of the screen. They could throw your traditional cross pad and diamond face buttons on there as well, as consoles are typically geared more towards core gamers and western gamers at that. I mean, even Amazon's box and those iPod/Android controller shells have this standard config, so it would probably be more off-putting not to include one, especially since your virtual buttons wouldn't be possible without a screen.

While I love the idea of a rotary dial touch screen around the sticks, I doubt that they'll include any screen on the home console controller. I do think it would feel and work great (there's a Nintendo patent which details dual vibrators, so you could have one dedicated to each virtual jog dial). I'm not so sure that they'll even have a full circle around the sticks in the HH, though. Looking at the Free Form patent again:

Furthermore, as shown in FIG. 6(C), the notch 34 that lower end portions of the right and left of the display panel 14 are cut off in a fan form may be formed. This is because such a portion is partly hidden by the thumb of the player and also deviates from an effective visual field described later. If such structure is adopted, assembly of the information processing apparatus 10 is easy.

Hmm, easy manufacturing may be the deciding factor here.

Good point that linear sensors could be an alternative to capacitivity on a button, hadn't thought of it like that. perhaps easier to place over curved button too, but I wouldn't know.
I've been thinking more about the elliptical screen and I dunno, it seems a bit too weird, I think a rounded rectangle would be more suitable, something like the 2ds form but stretched to 16:9 size, all screen apart from a 1/2 inch strip along the bottom, and whatever frame it needs to be durable.
A 7 inch screen with pokey sticks is doable in a smaller unit than the Vita especially if a bit wider than 16:9. 1024x480 wouldn't surprise me.

An elliptical would be easy to slide into one's pocket, but I'm thinking those sides might be a bit too...pointy? Then again, Nintendo had us using the Wii Remote sideways for many games, so you never know. I said in a previous post that a track shape may be too similar to Vita, but this is the same Nintendo which designed and released the Wii U Pro controller, which is clearly inspired by the 360 pad. A track shape also has the bonus of being in their logo.

I'm gonna stick w/ the 540p consensus and also take IHS' word that the initial handheld will have a 3"-5" screen. My guess is closer to 5, but the Free From display would definitely make for some wacky number in the horizontal.

I'm just gonna post a picture of the Pokken controller, because the X-Files fan in me believes there are secrets hidden in its design.

 

[James Scott]

Wasn't the general consensus 540p, also because of this resolution being the exact half of 1080?

Sorry if this sounds dumb, but why does it matter that it's exactly half?

 

[DapperSloth]

I think that they will use a handheld-type device that acts as a "GameBoy" when you want to take it with you, and when you come home, connect it to the NX home console and the "GameBoy" is now a controller for the NX.

So, the controller IS the handheld that can be used both with the NX console and as standalone handheld on the go.

The patents that we have seen suggests just that. A controller with a screen (like the WiiU-Gamepad but smaller, more handheld device) that you control and can take with you.

 

[lensoftruth]

Sorry if this sounds dumb, but why does it matter that it's exactly half?

images scale much cleaner at multiples

 

[Pancake Mix]

Wouldn't Smash Wii U require a 16 GB game card without discs? We haven't even had an 8 GB 3DS card I think. Has Nintendo brought down the price of reliable solid state media (via Macronix of course) enough for a port of Smash Wii U? I guess removing any flash memory intended for saving (requiring SD card or HDD space for example) might drive the price a tiny bit.

I'm really curious how Nintendo will do physical media on NX. I hope they don't do anything stupid like digital-only.

Solid state game carts and cards are fantastic. I hope it's feasible. Discs being back on console would be fine too if not.

 

[AmyS]

PCIe, for a Nice Radeon GPU?

For NX console and/or Supplemental Computing Device?

 

[Fourth Storm]

Wouldn't Smash Wii U require a 16 GB game card without discs? We haven't even had an 8 GB 3DS card I think. Has Nintendo brought down the price of their reliable solid state media enough for a port of Smash Wii U? I guess removing any flash memory intended for saving (requiring SD card or HDD space for example) might drive the price a tiny bit.

I'm really curious how Nintendo will do physical media on NX. I hope they don't do anything stupid like digital-only.

Solid state game carts and cards are fantastic. I hope it's feasible. Discs being back on console would be fine too if not.

That's the big question, isn't it?

 

[Neoxon]

I think that they will use a handheld-type device that acts as a "GameBoy" when you want to take it with you, and when you come home, connect it to the NX home console and the "GameBoy" is now a controller for the NX.

So, the controller IS the handheld that can be used both with the NX console and as standalone handheld on the go.

The patents that we have seen suggests just that. A controller with a screen (like the WiiU-Gamepad but smaller, more handheld device) that you control and can take with you.

That'd make the console a bit too pricey.

 

[Mr Swine]

Sorry if this sounds dumb, but why does it matter that it's exactly half?

If NX console can play NX handheld games then it would scale very nice on a 1080P screen whereas it wouldn't if the screen was 480/720p.

Also what kind of ARM cpu are on 28nm node that realistically Nintendo could use on its handheld? I don't think they will go with a 14nm node with an Arm CPU

 

[James Scott]

A 720p handheld sounds quite un-Nintendo to me. Just don't see that as a likely thing they'd go with (or even need to).

Yeah. Vita games at native res seem fine enough especially if the screen is smaller

 

[Thraktor]

No PCIe in Wii U afaik either. There was the 60x interface w/ the CPU, SATA for the disc drive and everything else was USB.

But yeah, I suppose this could deal w/ the SDK for PCs.

Yeah, that's what I figured. There isn't anything in the Wii U which would make sense to use PCIe for. Then again, if the home NX is using an AMD APU, AMD obviously have plenty of experience with PCIe interfaces, so I suppose AMD might have been pushing it?

PCIe? NX to use AMD 290X confirmed.

Nah, they're going to switch from eMMC to a couple of these bad boys. Throw two of them in there and your flash bandwidth almost hits Wii U RAM levels, let alone those measly hard-drives used by the competition.

More seriously, the only real reason I can think of using PCIe internally is for flash storage. The (cheaper) eMMC solutions which we would expect them to use are only available up to 128GB, and I don't get the impression they'd go the 2.5" SATA route. That basically leaves an on-board PCIe SSD as their only option if they want to offer storage tiers above 128GB.

Alternatively, we could see the return of the EXT port, long-missed by Nintendo hardware owners. A port on the side or bottom of the device with a PCIe 3.0 x8 interface and a ~100W power output would give them a lot of options for hypothetical SCDs, including a straight-up extra GPU when PS5 and Xbox Two hit.

Actually, they could take a similar approach internally. Have USB/SATA/eMMC/etc all run from an off-chip controller linked to the SoC via PCIe. That would allow them to release future versions of the console with different storage technology, more/faster USB ports, or whatever else they like while still sticking with the original SoC.

Wouldn't Smash Wii U require a 16 GB game card without discs? We haven't even had an 8 GB 3DS card I think. Has Nintendo brought down the price of reliable solid state media (via Macronix of course) enough for a port of Smash Wii U? I guess removing any flash memory intended for saving (requiring SD card or HDD space for example) might drive the price a tiny bit.

I'm really curious how Nintendo will do physical media on NX. I hope they don't do anything stupid like digital-only.

Solid state game carts and cards are fantastic. I hope it's feasible. Discs being back on console would be fine too if not.

According to Macronix, 8GB 3DS cards were ready to go back in early 2011, it just seems like no game has ended up needing them. If the home console is actually using game cards instead of discs then you would need at least 32GB and probably 64GB to accommodate it (a lot of AAA PS4 games are hitting 40GB+). I have no doubt such cards would be technically possible, but the question is how much they'd end up costing.

 

[Pancake Mix]

I wonder if the free form display, if there is one, will be for the console controller and provide HUD information/touchscreen feedback in a neat little row.

A 960x540 resolution screen or screens for a handheld could work but I doubt people will be quite as forgiving as with the 3DS in pixel density, especially if only an XL was released in any specific region. Everyone knows the 3DS is low-res, but that's not expected of a brand new system.

 

[Vena]

A 960x540 resolution screen or screens for a handheld could work but I doubt people will be quite as forgiving as with the 3DS in pixel density, especially if only an XL was released in any specific region. Everyone knows the 3DS is old, but that's not expected of a brand new system. Smartphones have amazing pixel density these days. If the system is available in a compact form like the OG 3DS or N3DS that would mitigate pixel density concerns a lot I feel.

Unfortunately, thermodynamics does not bend under the perceptions of others. And, outside of fine text with the handheld held an inch from your face, you will likely not be able to easily differentiate pixels on a 540p, 5-6" screen.

A smart phone may have a nice screen... it also is throttled to a crippling degree, runs hot, and will have the battery life of under an hour under heavy load.

 

[Fourth Storm]

Before my replies, I just wanted to say that I searched for and Google translated (if necessary) a bunch of the earnings reports and Q&As from companies reporting in the last couple weeks. I just wrapped up Bandai Namco's things and, like the rest, didn't even get a morsel. Oh well!

In other news, it does look like that Sharp takeover with Foxconn will be happening after all. Not fully related other than just from a manufacturing standpoint.

Don't feel bad. I've spent way too much time on some days scouring for patents, but nobody does it quite like Rosti!

That Sharp/Foxconn drama has been interesting to follow! I don't know if it matters for Nintendo, as the contract is likely already signed if it exists. Still, from what I've read, Foxconn's offer would probably work out better, as it doesn't require a restructure and doesn't touch the LCD devision. Plus, Foxconn is reportedly manufacturing NX, so that could perhaps make communication and shipments simpler. Or maybe not.

Awesome, awesome post. I actually hadn't even heard about that linear image sensor patent! It actually provides another thing I was thinking about as far as interacting with games. They had a big hit with the Wii, and I just couldn't imagine they'd throw a more immersive experience with games like that entirely out the window. Touch can only replace it so much. They still include gyroscopes, which says something, but they are harping on about a new way of playing, a new experience.

Having image sensors all around the device (at least a majority of it) could enable some really innovative ways of playing. A WarioWare game would be insanity with all the different things you could do, such as swatting flies on a table or playing a theremin. You may look like a maniac, but it'd be a lot of fun. Having an array of sensors like that could add "depth" to 3D game mechanics, like drawing a bow or throwing something more realistically and with greater precision than just the button tap. I mentioned before having a touch pad (not a screen) on a handheld for different moves like pinches with the screen, and this could replace that and enable it on the handheld. (On that note, the console controller wouldn't need to have a screen in it and could just have these sensors and a touch pad in the middle. Then, you could just show any two screen games on one screen while still having the touch to interact with them, as far as backward compatibility/emulation goes.)

Yeah, I don't have too much to add. Glad you enjoyed the read. Of course, alot depends on how everything really works in practice, but in theory, it's a very cool concept. Nintendo should provide a discrete camera either way for AR and communication. To me, that's a better solution for a home console than putting a camera in every single controller. As for the perimeter sensors, that could end up looking alot like the bottom of the Pokken controller. It depends on how they do it. Conversely, they could opt for invisible IR emitters just for position tracking, but then you lose all that stuff in the linear image sensor patent.

I think Graphics Horse mentioned earlier just having the Circle Pads in an elliptical form, a lot like the patent. With your recent mention about left/right-handedness, I was thinking that maybe it actually will have two of these pads (dual analog, but also buttons) while having two "trigger" buttons underneath the handheld, your A and B, located where you hold the thing that you can press with your middle fingers. I think it's important they have at least two physical buttons available, though I don't think they need to be side by side. I'm think of classic platformers where you hold a button to then press another to run and jump. You might be able to execute that easier, actually, having them separated, one on each hand, as your one thumb could only be so quick anyways. Then, you'd have the scroll wheels/triggers/nub/optical laser array/whatever on the top for L and R. You'd have more than enough buttons and inputs, plus motion possibilities.

You are giving me flashbacks of the playing the Virtual Boy in Blockbuster Video!

In the above setup, I think it could still be either softened rectangle or elliptical/oval. I really don't know what to make of that yet! I think the scroll wheels (physical or optical) would feel/work better on a rounded surface. One thought is that the thing is elliptical, but you're able to get a peripheral to seat the handheld into to add grips, extra buttons, bongos, etc. The image sensors around it would detect that you're in "super gamer mode" and add the necessary additional capabilities on the fly. (Kind of like those controller for iPhones where they get cradled in.) That elliptical shape just gels more with the main body shape of controllers Nintendo has been putting out lately, like the Wii U Pro. This would be a great incentive to have both the handheld and console; you'd have extra enabled functionality. You will be able to play any game on either device, but this connection enables extra things.

Pretty much in agreement with everything you say. Only thing is I'm not sure they'd want to cover up this hypothetical LED/sensor array. Maybe they will provide windows in the shell for them. Nintendo sold a shitton of Wii wheels and Zappers, so the concept can work well. They just need to be careful and focus on giving the products a more quality feel. Consumers have moved on from the era of cheap plastic peripherals cluttering up their homes.

 

[James Scott]

snip.

images scale much cleaner at multiples

So this is only if it upscaled and not if the games are natively up rezed, right?
With my experience with iPad games that aren't native, you can zoom in/expand the image to be full screen. This is what this whole 540p talk refers to, right?

 

[Somnid]

Resolution doubling doesn't matter. It only really comes up when the software does not know about the new hardware, typically backwards compatibility. If you are assuming devs want their software to run on both, then they can simply modify the output resolution.

 

[Fourth Storm]

Yeah, that's what I figured. There isn't anything in the Wii U which would make sense to use PCIe for. Then again, if the home NX is using an AMD APU, AMD obviously have plenty of experience with PCIe interfaces, so I suppose AMD might have been pushing it?

I was about to say that the only thing it makes sense for is a SSD, but you brought up some other good ideas below.

Nah, they're going to switch from eMMC to a couple of these bad boys. Throw two of them in there and your flash bandwidth almost hits Wii U RAM levels, let alone those measly hard-drives used by the competition.

More seriously, the only real reason I can think of using PCIe internally is for flash storage. The (cheaper) eMMC solutions which we would expect them to use are only available up to 128GB, and I don't get the impression they'd go the 2.5" SATA route. That basically leaves an on-board PCIe SSD as their only option if they want to offer storage tiers above 128GB.

I wouldn't discount a mechanical HDD. Yeah, it's moving parts, but Nintendo are changing and bottom line is that they need to keep this thing cheap while also offering a ton of storage so that they can continue to push those digital downloads. Still, a PCIe SSD may make a certain sense under the "Nintendo Overcompensation Theory" (bgassassin, 2012). This was demonstrated most famously when Nintendo went from the N64's 4 kb of texture cache to the Gamecube's 1 MB. In this scenario, it would go something like, "You say our OS is slow, do you? How do you like this shit?"

Alternatively, we could see the return of the EXT port, long-missed by Nintendo hardware owners. A port on the side or bottom of the device with a PCIe 3.0 x8 interface and a ~100W power output would give them a lot of options for hypothetical SCDs, including a straight-up extra GPU when PS5 and Xbox Two hit.

Just stop. As I posted earlier in this thread, I had a dream where the EXT port returned. Inexplicably, the handheld plugged into the bottom of the console, completely hiding the screen. Maybe player 2 would have to lay underneath a glass coffee table? My brain is trolling me.

Actually, they could take a similar approach internally. Have USB/SATA/eMMC/etc all run from an off-chip controller linked to the SoC via PCIe. That would allow them to release future versions of the console with different storage technology, more/faster USB ports, or whatever else they like while still sticking with the original SoC.

Now, that's actually a really smart idea. Maybe it costs them a bit more up front, but the benefit to future hardware revisions is huge.

 

[James Scott]

So yeah, the 540p upscaling well likely doesn't matter much, but I do think the resolution is probably the right one to choose.
If the screen is Vita size or smaller (likely normal size at launch and XL awhile later) 540p native is more than fine. Better for the games to try and be more ambitious than try to go for 720p and failing. You can squeeze more out of the games if they go this route which will also be better for the console since it wouldn't be as held back by a portable trying to achieve 720p.

 

[GhostTrick]

So yeah, the 540p upscaling well likely doesn't matter much, but I do think the resolution is probably the right one to choose.
If the screen is Vita size or smaller (likely normal size at launch and XL awhile later) 540p native is more than fine. Better for the games to try and be more ambitious than try to go for 720p and failing. You can squeeze more out of the games if they go this route which will also be better for the console since it wouldn't be as held back by a portable trying to achieve 720p.

720p will be worthwile when there'll be SoC available and ready to push native 720p without throttling. 540p is the resolution for a 2016 gaming handheld. And by that, I mean at native res. For what it tried to push, Vita should've been 360p.

 

[ozfunghi]

So yeah, the 540p upscaling well likely doesn't matter much, but I do think the resolution is probably the right one to choose.
If the screen is Vita size or smaller (likely normal size at launch and XL awhile later) 540p native is more than fine. Better for the games to try and be more ambitious than try to go for 720p and failing. You can squeeze more out of the games if they go this route which will also be better for the console since it wouldn't be as held back by a portable trying to achieve 720p.

You are only considering uprezzing, not downrezzing.

 

[orioto]

540p at 5" just looks goooooooooood, and will do even more with (hopefully) way more advanced 3d. So there is no reason to go higher. If we know something about Nintendo, it's that they will NOT overkill any aspect of their tech.

 

[Doctre81]

I'm sure this guy's linkedin has been posted already. ( a banned site did a topic on this yesterday) But I stumbled across this dude whole resume online. Must. Resist.. urge.. to.. contact.