molnizzle
Member
Yeah, it's not even close. Attack of the Clones is easily the worst Star Wars film.
The Phantom Menace is the most 'Star Warsy' of any of the prequels, never understood the hate for it.
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Which film was worse...The Phantom Menace or Attack of the Clones?
- Thread starter SpaceWolf
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Yeah, it's not even close. Attack of the Clones is easily the worst Star Wars film.
The Phantom Menace is the most 'Star Warsy' of any of the prequels, never understood the hate for it.
I can agree with this.
Ok.. I'm not sure if you're getting that just because something can be interpreted or began as a children's story doesn't mean a movie/show/book/piece of entertainment can't be created to target a broader or completely different audience.
Do you really think Episode 3 is a children's story meant for kids? There's a reason it's rated PG-13..
Seventy_X_Seven
Member
I like the prequels, eh. I know it's not popular but whatever.
Regarding midichlorians, I get why there is the hate but I don't. Everything about them was revealed in the OT, they just never had a name. Let's go over the force in the OT: not everyone can use it and it appears to be hereditary. That's all the existence of midichlorians in TPM prove. Nothing more. It doesn't demystify the force, it just states what we already knew that not everyone can use it. Also midichlorians aren't the force, they are just what allows a force sensitive being to use it.
And regarding sand, don't forget Anakin grew up a slave in a freaking desert. I don't blame him for having bad thoughts when thinking of sand.
Regarding midichlorians, I get why there is the hate but I don't. Everything about them was revealed in the OT, they just never had a name. Let's go over the force in the OT: not everyone can use it and it appears to be hereditary. That's all the existence of midichlorians in TPM prove. Nothing more. It doesn't demystify the force, it just states what we already knew that not everyone can use it. Also midichlorians aren't the force, they are just what allows a force sensitive being to use it.
And regarding sand, don't forget Anakin grew up a slave in a freaking desert. I don't blame him for having bad thoughts when thinking of sand.
They totally demystify the force. It's assumed, but not outright told, that certain people are stronger in the force than others, but that doesn't mean the force doesn't exist in everyone to some degree or that it's JUST about bloodlines/heritages. Yoda says it binds us all together, but the PT tells us it just comes down to simple science. Totally different. One is powerful mythology, one is quantifiable gibberish.
Midichlorians spell it out for you and introduce scientific fact (within this universe) to explain everything in a black/white sense to the audience.
It completely removes the magic.
Seventy_X_Seven
Member
Outside of Jar Jar it's probably showing 6 year old Darth Vader or whatever. People don't like kids in movies, and having suppose to be the same person as possibly the most iconic movie villain, yeah good luck. I applaud George Lucas for sticking to his vision for how he saw Star Wars to be as opposed to listening to people say "Kids in films are bad, let's have them find an older Anakin or skip to where he's already older." I guess you can make a good counter argument against that as well, I know there's all the arguments about Lucas surrounding himself with Yes-men. Still, there's something nice about someone telling their own story without focus testing it to death, even if it ends up getting a lot of criticism.
Either that or trade disputes...
Also Kylo Ren was really hurt. The movie intentionally shows how powerful Chewbacca's weapon was before he got shot by it and Kylo Ren took the blow and still took down Finn easily and was winning against Rey. It wasn't total bullshit at least.
Not to mention the emotional weight of you know.. murdering your father about 2 minutes before?
Seventy_X_Seven
Member
Even according to midichlorians based lore, Yoda wasn't lying. Official lore is everyone has midichlorians but at varying concentrations. So everyone still has some connection to the force. Also important to note that midichlorians aren't the force, and the force still binds allthings regardless. Midichlorians are how you communicate with them.
Additionally the force can still be strong with someone even if there's no history of high midichlorians in their family, and even if there is a science to count how many midichlorians you have there is no science to understand how they communicate with the force and how to use them. Anakin had a higher concentration than Yoda but Yoda was clearly superior in the prequels at least.
There's no explanation at all for how the force works, it remains a mystery. Nothing is contradicted from the OT, just some classification that Chewbacca couldn't decide to dedicate his life to becoming a powerful force user and take over the galaxy if he wanted to which was a given anyways.
You don't see how quantifying the force removes the magic established in ESB with Yoda, or even in ANH with Obi-Wan? Can you imagine Yoda explaining how the force works to Luke and immediately afterword hooking himself into a midichlorian machine to show Luke just HOW WELL he can commune through the force via physical proof?
The mystery was that we didn't know exactly what the force was or how it worked. Quantifying it scientifically is totally unnecessary and does nothing to improve the previously established mythology and in fact works against its magic.
Seventy_X_Seven
Member
This is actually a really key point. It's common knowledge that hate and rage fuel the dark side. When Kylo kills that old guy at the beginning of the movie he unleashes that hatred and rage and consequently his powers get stronger and he's able to immediatly afterwards stop a Blaster shot in its path.
When he kills his father he's expecting to get a similar boost to his powers but instead of feeling hatred and rage he's saddened. You can see this as Han brushes his hand across Kylo's face right before he dies, it wasn't what he was expecting at all.
Exactly. These are the subtleties missed by furious fans piecing together evidence for their 2 minute "TFA is ANH" YT videos.
Seventy_X_Seven
Member
midichlorians aren't the force, there's no quantifying the force. And no one knows how the force works, let alone how midichlorians beside that they communicate with the force. This is the whole misconception. Everything about the force is still a mystery.
I edited my post. But you must also understand that quantifying PART of how the force works is, in itself, quantifying the force, even partially.
Just because midichlorians don't explain ALL of the force doesn't mean it doesn't partially ruin its magic. Once you start down that path why not eventually quantify the rest of it?
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
And the fact that she was shown kicking the shit out of a small group of men on Jakku, and has been surviving on a harsh planet on her own since childhood, proving she's a tough chick who can handle herself.
But yeah, total bullshit fight because she beat an injured apprentice who was going soft on her because he had been ordered to take her in alive. I mean, she never should've won. She barely knew anything about the Force.
The odds of her beating Kylo Ren with almost zero Force knowledge is about the same odds that someone with almost no Force knowledge would have of hitting an exhaust port on a massive starship with a missile, without use of a targeting computer, while flying a damaged spacecraft at supersonic speeds.
That's like a million-to-one odds or something crazy like that.
victreeb3l
Member
Attack of the Clones. I actually kinda liked Phantom Menace.
Hey, I didn't say it was good. Even though I consider the Phantom Edit to be better than the original version, I still never watch it. I'm just saying it's passable. You could watch this and come away with some entertainment value. AOTC doesn't provide that. If you watch that film, you waste nearly 3 hours of life. The Phantom Editor did try to fix that film as well, cutting out 40 minutes of content, but it was still the same slog. All he really succeeded in doing was removing the few barely interesting action scenes the movie had.
In TPM, Jar Jar and all the scenes involving his people are trash. Almost all of Anakin's acting is trash. The fart jokes and general slapstick goofiness is bewilderingly bad. But... the film doesn't feel like it's utterly consumed by bad CGI every moment of its runtime. Some of the actors actually do a pretty decent job. There's even a great climactic fight. It never gets too bogged down in politics to let the pace completely stop. It's not a strong movie, but it comes out pretty well next to AOTC.
He levelled up to level 17, allowing him to perform Laser Break and Tantrum.
Killing the dude at the begging doesn't immediately make him stronger or at all. What kind of nonsense are you talking about.
More midichlorians = more (potential) force power
That's why Liam Neeson has an orgasm when he tests Anakin with the machine. So yes it does quantify it.
TPM is by far worse. I cannot fathom the overwhelming opinion that AOTC is somehow a more miserable experience than watching a movie heavily involving Young Anakin and Jar Jar Binks, literally the two worst characters I've ever had the displeasure of watching in the cinemas. There is no part of AOTC that approaches the levels of drudgery of the Young Anakin is a fighter pilot scenes. Pure, unadulterated trash.
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
Everything about the Force is so mysterious that they have a fucking Midichlorian Home Test Kit to check your blood for the little fuckers.
So basically, it's as mysterious as diabetes.
TPM is the worse of the two. At least Attack had some type of cohesive story that mattered, even if that story was executed in about the poorest way possible.
If you disagree with me, write out the plot points of each movie and tell me which one has the most interesting story on paper. Which movie you would rather see. TPM is a complete throwaway and an unnecessary movie in telling the story of how Anakin became Darth Vader and how the empire came to be.
If you disagree with me, write out the plot points of each movie and tell me which one has the most interesting story on paper. Which movie you would rather see. TPM is a complete throwaway and an unnecessary movie in telling the story of how Anakin became Darth Vader and how the empire came to be.
I think, objectively, TPM is clearly the superior movie. SW film or not, it's better made in spite of the travesties that are jar jar and young Anakin.
Shit man I agree! Those exhaust ports are tiny too relatively speaking! They couldn't be much bigger than a womprat!
No, you didn't get it. You're equating general story structure. TFA copies actual scenes and very essential events. Specific story structure. Those two are not at all the same.
I've seen the movie over ten times, I get it. I've seen the criticism. They're nowhere near copies and TFA accomplishes a variety of things ANH does not. I don't even think of ANH at all when I watch now (I did the first time). Shit is so blown out of proportion.
Tom Nook Sawyer
Member
Whoa, I was literally thinking about this while walking an hour ago. I was trying to figure out why that is though and I'm not entirely sure why
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
Exactly! Why, I'd reckon you'd have to be pretty damned connected to the Force to make shots like that with any regularity, whether you know you're connected or not.
It's almost as if the Force can help make the impossible possible for those with strong connections. One minute you're blowing up Death Stars, the next minute you're beating injured evil apprentices in fights. Crazy stuff.
Suggesting that the force is more powerful in some people than others doesn't equate to "it's caused by this specific cell in your blood," especially not when the OT strongly suggested that the force could be cultivated in anyone through training. The prequel explanation brings up a lot of problems with the force... like the fact that all of the people carrying the genes for high midichlorian counts are celibate and not passing those genes down. Or the fact that with all of the genetic manipulation that was obviously possible on the clones that no one ever just engineered perfect jedi with massive midichlorian levels. It really did reduce the force from being a omnipresent and intangible power into something mundane.
I could literally quote any dialog scene from AOTC at random and it would be worse than the scene you're describing.
"I truly... deeply... love you (blank, emotionless stare)"
"I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere. Not like here. Here everything is soft and smooth."
Either the writing is painfully cliche (rolling around in a meadow and sharing romantic confessions by a fire) or it's just utterly... weirdly unnatural. The characters just state "I love you" over and over as if that's romance, without ever doing anything to make you believe in it. The dialog is bordering on "The Room" levels of quality. Seriously, just imagine Tommy Wiseau delivering this shit:
"The thought of not being with you- I cannn't breathe, I luff you so maach. I'm haunted by kiss that you should never have given me, Padme. My heart is beating... hoping that kiss will not become scar, hauh? You are in my very soul, tormenting me... why Padme why Padme why, what can I do? Oh, hai threepio."
It has the same bones, so to speak. That was intentional. Dial down to what is actually happening atop the structure - the story, the characters, their arcs and relationships, and it's a whole other animal.
brandonh83
Banned
The Phantom Menace is one million times better than Attack of the Clones. Just for Darth Maul and Qui Gon Jinn, if nothing else.
That being said, I would rather watch either of them again than film #3.
TFA was weird too. Felt like the Kylo Ren character was a scathing critique on modern young men by JJ Abrams and whoever else wrote it. He just seemed so bizarre and out of place from the rest of the series.
That being said, I would rather watch either of them again than film #3.
TFA was weird too. Felt like the Kylo Ren character was a scathing critique on modern young men by JJ Abrams and whoever else wrote it. He just seemed so bizarre and out of place from the rest of the series.
brandonh83
Banned
When people say that TPM isn't important all... I mean, okay if you don't care about certain story elements I guess. There's this whole thing about TPM that some refuse to acknowledge, but it's there.
What I like about TPM is that it actually addresses problems people have with certain things and they don't even seem to know it. People complain about how the Midichlorians explain too much about the Force, but they don't. If you watch ESB, Yoda like explicitly talks about the Midichlorians, just without giving them a name. They don't explain the Force. After the Midichlorian information in TPM, I don't know much more about the Force. I know that the Jedi used the Midichlorians to sort of gauge how powerful a specific being was in relation to the Force, but it never told me what the Force was or how it works specifically. It's an element of the Force without really explaining anything.
Beyond that, and this is kinda important really, but Jinn's death in TPM is actually what paves the way to the remaining Jedi, Obi-Wan and Yoda, understanding the Force better. What interests me is that Kenobi and Yoda were part of the Jedi Order when they fell, but in that 20 year gap, Jinn became part of the Force and learned more about it which is why at the end of Episode III, Yoda tells Kenobi that an "old friend" has learned about the ways of the Force. TPM was important because we saw not only Anakin's origins and why he was initially having problems with being a Jedi but also Qui-Gon's view of the Force, what the Jedi SHOULD be, and then on.
The Jedi are mostly wiped out through ignorance and ego. They think they have everything figured out, but they don't. It was easy for Sheev to slink through everything because they were so high on power they didn't imagine that anyone could possibly overthrow them. They had this hugely scientific (read: Midichlorians) view of the Force that they had no religious-level respect of it. In the OT they do because Qui-Gon, after death, learned more about the Force as he personally connected to it and was the one that actually learned of the Force-ghost technique. This is what led Kenobi to sacrificing himself to guide Luke through the Force. It's all right there in TPM.
TPM isn't some pointless thing that can be skimped over. People say that the prequels contradict what the Force is, but, no, not really. The prequels actually, if anything, explain how-- a group like the Jedi with supposedly infinite knowledge about the Force-- could possibly fall. It's that they didn't have that knowledge. It's very important to the grand scheme. People give a lot of shit to Lucas for being too blunt, but in this case, I wonder.
What I like about TPM is that it actually addresses problems people have with certain things and they don't even seem to know it. People complain about how the Midichlorians explain too much about the Force, but they don't. If you watch ESB, Yoda like explicitly talks about the Midichlorians, just without giving them a name. They don't explain the Force. After the Midichlorian information in TPM, I don't know much more about the Force. I know that the Jedi used the Midichlorians to sort of gauge how powerful a specific being was in relation to the Force, but it never told me what the Force was or how it works specifically. It's an element of the Force without really explaining anything.
Beyond that, and this is kinda important really, but Jinn's death in TPM is actually what paves the way to the remaining Jedi, Obi-Wan and Yoda, understanding the Force better. What interests me is that Kenobi and Yoda were part of the Jedi Order when they fell, but in that 20 year gap, Jinn became part of the Force and learned more about it which is why at the end of Episode III, Yoda tells Kenobi that an "old friend" has learned about the ways of the Force. TPM was important because we saw not only Anakin's origins and why he was initially having problems with being a Jedi but also Qui-Gon's view of the Force, what the Jedi SHOULD be, and then on.
The Jedi are mostly wiped out through ignorance and ego. They think they have everything figured out, but they don't. It was easy for Sheev to slink through everything because they were so high on power they didn't imagine that anyone could possibly overthrow them. They had this hugely scientific (read: Midichlorians) view of the Force that they had no religious-level respect of it. In the OT they do because Qui-Gon, after death, learned more about the Force as he personally connected to it and was the one that actually learned of the Force-ghost technique. This is what led Kenobi to sacrificing himself to guide Luke through the Force. It's all right there in TPM.
TPM isn't some pointless thing that can be skimped over. People say that the prequels contradict what the Force is, but, no, not really. The prequels actually, if anything, explain how-- a group like the Jedi with supposedly infinite knowledge about the Force-- could possibly fall. It's that they didn't have that knowledge. It's very important to the grand scheme. People give a lot of shit to Lucas for being too blunt, but in this case, I wonder.
Count Dookkake
Member
I know this isn't really what your post is about, but let me fixate on the bolded for a moment.
If you ask that, you could also ask why the clone army was not based on a Jedi or a Sith.
Once you ask that, you can easily assume that midichlorians aren't transferred in the cloning process. If that is the case, then if you want a clone army you will have to clone a badass who has no force powers.
You might similarly ask why Padme did not use clones as decoys, rather than her crew of brunettes.
Also, if midichlorians aren't transferred, then a clone of Sidious wouldn't have any force presence or scent or whatever. Would very easily explain why the Jedi never noticed anything funny in the years that they worked with Palpatine; the politician, an unwitting clone of the Sith master, was a decoy. LIke the clone army, this sad bastard was a puppet. Palpatine, in the prequels, was a Trojan horse for Sidious to become Emperor.
I am 100% confident that that was the reason Lucas introduced midichlorians, but then for some reason, he decided to not drop a big clone reveal for Sidious/Palpatine in ROTS.
If you watch the movies with that in mind, so much more makes sense. You might still not like the films, but you will see that quite a few odd details throughout the trilogy suddenly have dramatic purpose.
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
It's Ren's bizarre nature that makes him so interesting, in my opinion. He desperately wants to be evil but is unsure of his ability to embrace what he feels is his birthright. He seeks out his dark self because he thinks it's his destiny to be like his grandfather, Darth Vader.
Unlike his grandfather, who fell from grace because his love for others was used to manipulate him, Ben Solo fell because of his love for himself (and his desire for power fueled only by ego, versus the desire for power that his grandfather had, that was fueled by the desire to save his wife). He knows of the power once held by his grandfather and now he wants to reclaim his rightful place in the galaxy.
Where Anakin was redeemed in the end because his love for his son pulled him away from the edge, Ben dove headfirst into that dark void to prove he was deserving of his grandfather's legacy. Anakin spared his son's life and became light; Ben took his father's life and became dark.
Obviously, we have a large number of puzzle pieces yet to be filled in about the character of Kyle Ren, but so far, I love what they've done with him.
Damn right it was intentional. Disney probably figured Star Wars fans would bitch about any movie they would come up with, unless it was so similar that bitching about it would be bitching about ANH. Which they wouldn't dare. Makes sense business wise. But people see the fanservice for what it is. Well some of us.
Yes the characters are great, the actors are great, the character interactions are fantastic (no longer po-faced like the prequels) and the visuals are second to none. It's definitely (almost) as good as the OT. But that doesn't mean Kasdan and Abrams didn't completely pull a Star Trek into Darkness with the story.
Robocop 2014 is probably more different to Robocop 1987 than TFA is to the OT.
Anyway I'll drop it. There are more important things. Such as that AotC is at least ten times better than TPM (and still sucks).
I couldn't agree more! What makes him interesting is that he's someone trying to follow in Vaders footsteps, but his reasoning is Completly different.
Keeping the prequels as cannon, their motivations couldn't be farther apart, and it shows in the conviction (or lack thereof) in each character.
Raiden1018
Banned
So much people in denial that TFA is basically the softest reboot of a franchise ever.
I loved the movie and seen it 3 times in the theaters but with every viewing I can see it. And I know it was intentional to win over the og fans.
I did have flaws with the movie though: some of the dialogue, the extreme coincidences(Fan service) Star killer base and its fate, Rey being able to do almost anything (even though I love her 😊
but overall it was a great movie. I hope episode 8 can be original and even better though
I loved the movie and seen it 3 times in the theaters but with every viewing I can see it. And I know it was intentional to win over the og fans.
I did have flaws with the movie though: some of the dialogue, the extreme coincidences(Fan service) Star killer base and its fate, Rey being able to do almost anything (even though I love her 😊
but overall it was a great movie. I hope episode 8 can be original and even better thoughThe Phantom Menace is bad but Attack of the Clones is absolutely terrible.
Anakin and Padme's love story is so cringeworthy I almost thought they we're doing a parody.
Also the Yoda fight scene was a great way to ruin the mythos of an iconic character. Do we really need to see Yoda fight? Does it add anything to the character at all?
Anakin and Padme's love story is so cringeworthy I almost thought they we're doing a parody.
Also the Yoda fight scene was a great way to ruin the mythos of an iconic character. Do we really need to see Yoda fight? Does it add anything to the character at all?
Was too over the top for me. Unintentionally funny I'll admit but I can't say it's better than TPM with a straight face.
Let me tell you guys a story about a kid who knows the answer to this question is Attack of the Clones but can't accept it.
When I was 5, my dad made me watch the Star Wars OT. And I fell in love. The implied history of the vast world, the fact that literally every character in that movie could have had some sort of story told, the personality, the vibe all of it.
But one line from A New Hope is the reason I was so captured by the series. Princess Leia in her message to Obi-Wan says:
"Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope. You served alongside my father in the Clone Wars"
I distinctly remember turning to my father and asking him "What's the Clone Wars?" and he told me he didn't know. And that fascinated me. It was the coolest sounding mystery and I wanted it told.
I liked The Phantom Menace when it came out because I was a kid and Darth Maul was cool, Qui-Gon was cool, Obi-Wan was boss and I liked the newness of Star Wars, that my understanding of it was a lot more vast than I knew. Also: podracing.
And then Attack of the Clones. Wait, clones? Clone Wars?
AHHHHH
So yes, Attack of the Clones was the movie I was waiting for my entire childhood life... except it wasn't, was it? It explained the origins of the Clones and all of that (by butchering whatever mystique Boba Fett had left, which granted, wasn't that much) and it gave us the amazing sequence from Geonosis, with the Clones descending upon the arena. I had a child orgasm when Yoda says at the end "Begun, the Clone Wars has." and we see the troops all assembled in formation. I am a Clone Wars apologist, that is to say I will defend basically every aspect of that conflict because I think it is really, truly fascinating and the way that gets resolved in Episode 3 with Order 66 I still think is fantastic.
Also: at this point, if you haven't watched the Clone Wars animated series, you absolutely should. Not only does it justify why the Clone Wars was so pivotal to the Star Wars universe, it actually elevates all of the Prequel era content into something truly outstanding. Its too bad George Lucas didn't come close to translating the ideas he clearly had into the movies.
But Attack of the Clones also destroyed Darth Vader, my favorite Star Wars character. The Prequel trilogy horribly mishandled Anakin Skywalker (Clone Wars fixes this a little) and turned a terrifying villain into a creepy, awkward child with no real value besides the value other characters constantly remind us about. Less a flaw of the movie and more a flaw of the writing and I guess the entire plot that George Lucas had come up with for Anakin but Attack of the Clones did a terrible job in developing Anakin into a character that was worth the fall he would have in Revenge of the Sith, that was worth being called 'The Chosen One' and more importantly, that was worth the redemption arc he would have thanks to the emergence of his son because HIS ENTIRE RELATIONSHIP WITH PADME IS SO BADLY MANAGED.
So yes, I would love to say Attack of the Clones isn't the worst of the two. It has a special place in my heart because it provided the set up I needed and wanted for what would eventually be The Clone Wars.
But man, I hate it.
When I was 5, my dad made me watch the Star Wars OT. And I fell in love. The implied history of the vast world, the fact that literally every character in that movie could have had some sort of story told, the personality, the vibe all of it.
But one line from A New Hope is the reason I was so captured by the series. Princess Leia in her message to Obi-Wan says:
"Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope. You served alongside my father in the Clone Wars"
I distinctly remember turning to my father and asking him "What's the Clone Wars?" and he told me he didn't know. And that fascinated me. It was the coolest sounding mystery and I wanted it told.
I liked The Phantom Menace when it came out because I was a kid and Darth Maul was cool, Qui-Gon was cool, Obi-Wan was boss and I liked the newness of Star Wars, that my understanding of it was a lot more vast than I knew. Also: podracing.
And then Attack of the Clones. Wait, clones? Clone Wars?
AHHHHH
So yes, Attack of the Clones was the movie I was waiting for my entire childhood life... except it wasn't, was it? It explained the origins of the Clones and all of that (by butchering whatever mystique Boba Fett had left, which granted, wasn't that much) and it gave us the amazing sequence from Geonosis, with the Clones descending upon the arena. I had a child orgasm when Yoda says at the end "Begun, the Clone Wars has." and we see the troops all assembled in formation. I am a Clone Wars apologist, that is to say I will defend basically every aspect of that conflict because I think it is really, truly fascinating and the way that gets resolved in Episode 3 with Order 66 I still think is fantastic.
Also: at this point, if you haven't watched the Clone Wars animated series, you absolutely should. Not only does it justify why the Clone Wars was so pivotal to the Star Wars universe, it actually elevates all of the Prequel era content into something truly outstanding. Its too bad George Lucas didn't come close to translating the ideas he clearly had into the movies.
But Attack of the Clones also destroyed Darth Vader, my favorite Star Wars character. The Prequel trilogy horribly mishandled Anakin Skywalker (Clone Wars fixes this a little) and turned a terrifying villain into a creepy, awkward child with no real value besides the value other characters constantly remind us about. Less a flaw of the movie and more a flaw of the writing and I guess the entire plot that George Lucas had come up with for Anakin but Attack of the Clones did a terrible job in developing Anakin into a character that was worth the fall he would have in Revenge of the Sith, that was worth being called 'The Chosen One' and more importantly, that was worth the redemption arc he would have thanks to the emergence of his son because HIS ENTIRE RELATIONSHIP WITH PADME IS SO BADLY MANAGED.
So yes, I would love to say Attack of the Clones isn't the worst of the two. It has a special place in my heart because it provided the set up I needed and wanted for what would eventually be The Clone Wars.
But man, I hate it.
While AotC is still the worst in my opinion, I'm not going to lie I greatly appreciate this post. You set out your reasoning, when you mentioned stuff you liked or didn't like you explained why you felt that way!
I'll also say I really need to get around to watching that series!
There's no doubt that midichlorians line up with the "Force is strong in my family" concept from the OT, it's just a level of detail that is unnecessary and damages the mystique of the series. In the Harry Potter world, magic is very similar to the Force in that it seems to run in families and there are some who are vastly more powerful than others. That doesn't mean we need a scientific explanation of what DNA sequence leads to the wizard, squib, and muggle phenotypes. Some things are better left unsaid. As you say, midichlorians tell us nothing about the Force and play no role in the story, so why include them? Anakin's high score pushes Qui-Gon to train him as a Jedi, but weren't his insane reflexes and powers of foresight enough? The kid is racing death cars against multi-limbed aliens.
"Feel don't think" is Qui-Gon's catchphrase, he shouldn't give a shit about midichlorians. If Anakin had got a low score, would he have just left him on Tatooine? The test and its explanation were pointless, like many things in the prequels.
Always-honest
Banned
The problems with these Star Wars movies are the weird embarrassing choices that are made.
Some small fragments are so cringeworthy that they leave a really bad taste in your mouth.
Emotional segments rarely deliver.
I guess AotC is the worst one in this regard.
Some small fragments are so cringeworthy that they leave a really bad taste in your mouth.
Emotional segments rarely deliver.
I guess AotC is the worst one in this regard.
brandonh83
Banned
Yeah. Like I said, the Midichlorians are just a title. They don't really go into how the Force itself operates. It's just a name. Yoda talks about how the Force "surrounds us and penetrates all beings" and to me the Midichlorians are just that. They don't really explain away any of the supernatural or mystic elements of the Force. They were given a name in the prequels to demonstrate how the Jedi used them to gauge how powerful or connected someone was with the Force so that they could indoctrinate inductees. It was never meant to say "hey this is what the Force is." It's not that at all. And after Jinn gives himself over to the Force and goes on to properly train Kenobi and Yoda between the PT and OT, that pretty much goes away-- the Jedi's "understanding" of the Force as they were an order relied on the Midichlorians to tell them who is more gifted than not, but as we saw with Anakin, it relies more on personal feelings and subjectivity than how many Midichlorians an individual has.
Luke probably had a fucking shitload, but at that time in the story, after the Jedi had been put in their place, Yoda didn't any longer give a shit about the "science" behind it and I feel like that lines up with that gap between the PT and OT-- during the PT they were more calculated and felt like they knew how to go about things, but after the Anakin debacle and Jinn saying "nope that's not how to do this shit" they were all the wiser. When people talk about how the Force, Kenobi, Yoda et al were more "wiser" and more mythical about the Force in the OT, that's exactly why.
That's just my take away from it. I get that some are really passionate about how they feel about the Force and that's fine, but within explaining why the Jedi were arrogant and felt like they knew everything, in addition to their self-centric ego and why they wouldn't allow Jedi to be able to love someone or feel compassion, I mean this is exactly what happened with Darth Vader. He was in love and had a child coming, but even when he went to Yoda about it in Episode III and was turned down, it gave him raw, negative feelings about the order itself which were the same raw feelings that Qui-Gon had that made him such a rebel toward the Jedi Order.
I dunno, for me it just makes sense. Like you said, Qui-Gon's catchphrase was that, because he didn't really buy into the specifics of the Force as the Jedi had it all laid out. He was more "monk" like in his feelings toward it all, and I think Lucas was trying to say hey, this is the Jedi that you all thought the entire order was going to be like. But in my opinion, in a very smart and unpredictable move, he made the Jedi Order very flawed, which to me, if they were ever so perfect, they wouldn't have been brought down to begin with.
I have a lot of problems with the prequels ranging from the acting to the writing. But when it comes to the actual story and logic, I think George Lucas absolutely fucking nailed it. In hindsight I'm glad that the Jedi Order was flawed as fuck, had very specific notions of the Force, and etc. that led to everything crumbling to shit.
Midichlorians =/= force.
Would've been pretty cool to have anakin actually be low with midichlorians as he was born of the force and didn't need them to communicate with it. Wild.
Also, the sand line itself don't think is actually that bad.
"I hate sand. It's coarse and irritating and gets everywhere."
Anakin is using it as a symbol of his dislike and hatred of his roots.
What is actually bad is that he transitions it to a cheesy come on line "not like here .... Where it's soft and smooth". *cringe*
I mean at the very least it could've been subtle and just end at ... "Not like here".
Would've been pretty cool to have anakin actually be low with midichlorians as he was born of the force and didn't need them to communicate with it. Wild.
Also, the sand line itself don't think is actually that bad.
"I hate sand. It's coarse and irritating and gets everywhere."
Anakin is using it as a symbol of his dislike and hatred of his roots.
What is actually bad is that he transitions it to a cheesy come on line "not like here .... Where it's soft and smooth". *cringe*
I mean at the very least it could've been subtle and just end at ... "Not like here".
This is me. Even putting aside that TFA gives déjà vu the whole way through, it took away the happy ending from the end of RotJ.
Not only do things not end up ok, the protagonists end up having down right miserable lives after singing with the woodland creatures. Han and Leia are separated and Luke is off living by himself after his school ending up being a royal fuck up. It just gave me this feeling of "I waited all this time for this?" It felt like JJ pissed all over these characters I loved. And it is weird saying this because the prequels sort of do the same thing, but at least they never touched Luke, Leia and Han.
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