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[Dorfdad]

With all these next gen console struggling to reach 60fps, why haven't developers or engines innovated to make 30 FPS games feel smooth and less janky. Motion blur is pretty awful in most games, but with AI and other innovations why have we not had any improvements in making 30FPS games look and feel smooth?

 

[cash_longfellow]

Because they can’t. Shit is 5 years dated regardless of how devs try to paint it. There’s nothing that will make 30fps better. No matter what you do, 30fps is 30fps, regardless of how you try to mask it.

 

[gothmog]

Most 30 fps games I've played look and play fine. They're not 60 fps and that's the point. Performance vs quality. That's why we have different settings. The problem is that the very loud minority demands both at the same time.

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

They should focus on better matchmaking for games since the old way is still used and archaic.

 

[LazyParrot]

Just be happy you're basically forced to use a controller. You'll never know just how horrific 30 fps can feel until you've tried aiming with a mouse at that framerate.

 

[KloetenQuetsche]

My TV has a function to interpolate 30 fps to 60 fps. Used it a lot in GTA 4 and 5.

I think there are already functions doing that.

Use them.

 

[Killer8]

Motion blur, good frame pacing and low latency. There are games which run at 30fps which have lower latency than some games at 60fps. Halo 3 supposedly had just 90ms of latency at 30fps on an Xbox 360.

 

[GHG]

It doesn't make sense to waste money doing r&d on methods to mask poor framerate when you can spend that same amount of time and money doing research on how to improve framerate via methods that lean on AI.

 

[buenoblue]

That's why I went Samsung OLED. They have game mode interpolation that smooths out 30fps games while keeping input lag to 30ms. Doesn't feel like 60fps but feels about the same as the 40fps modes in some games, which is a big improvement.

 

[squidilix]

40fps is the key.

 

[Danjin44]

Because most developers will put effort try to make game run 60 FPS instead of "innovating" to make 30FPS look better.

 

[March Climber]

Motion blur, good frame pacing and low latency. There are games which run at 30fps which have lower latency than some games at 60fps. Halo 3 supposedly had just 90ms of latency at 30fps on an Xbox 360.

The big developer teams used to do these and other tricks to make 30fps feel good during PS360 gen and most of PS4/XBO generation. If you're wondering why 30fps games feel much worse and less smooth this generation, it's because most of the devs stopped. Even PS5 had to have a patch months into it's generation because some of the older BC games that were locked at 30 had an odd stuttering effect compared to playing them on PS4.

 

[Three]

Isn't frame generation exactly this? Designed to make lower framerate look more smooth. Also didn't Killzone shadowfall do exactly this in 2013 with temporal reprojection to hit higher generated res and framerate and get universally shat on for not being 'true' framerate/res?

 

[Spukc]

35 fps is so much better ngl nigel

 

[Guilty_AI]

Frame generation?

 

[BoxFresh123]

downloadmoreframes.com

 

[Fess]

With motion blur you just get blurred frames but you still see the image stutter from only changing 30 times per second.

There is frame interpolation though like Nvidia’s DLSS frame generation, but then it’s 60 frames just created through software instead, usually with added latency. Try using your TV’s frame interpolation to feel how it is. Works for slow games, I played Skyrim that way on 360.

 

[Tchu-Espresso]

Don’t know but I’m inclined to just skip 30fps content these days. It’s just unpleasant on OLED.

 

[rodrigolfp]

Only DLSS/FSR frame generation. But adds little input lag.

 

[whyman]

Because they can’t. Shit is 5 years dated regardless of how devs try to paint it. There’s nothing that will make 30fps better. No matter what you do, 30fps is 30fps, regardless of how you try to mask it.

I guess it could be solved on the consumer end with frame interpolation or whatever they call it. Problem is, only nvidia does it well and all the consoles run super old tech or amd. I look forward to someone telling me how I’m wrong, because I probably am.

 

[Hrk69]

It's called PC.

 

[cash_longfellow]

I guess it could be solved on the consumer end with frame interpolation or whatever they call it. Problem is, only nvidia does it well and all the consoles run super old tech or amd. I look forward to someone telling me how I’m wrong, because I probably am.

I can’t tell you one way or the other. To me, all it means is the games look slow at 30fps no matter what tech they use. I know nothing about any of that jargon, I only know what I see on screen, and that’s 30fps looks choppy asf regardless.

 

[hinch7]

Async Reprojection should be looked into by devs and publishers.


My main issue with 30fps is the input lag. Making inputs independant from render would largely fix that issue and would make gaming on consoles much better. If done well, that is. Add in framegen and well render budgets are improved significantly without having to worry about CPU so much.

 

[Kabelly]

The innovation of 30 frames per second is 60 frames per second and higher.

 

[diffusionx]

With all these next gen console struggling to reach 60fps, why haven't developers or engines innovated to make 30 FPS games feel smooth and less janky. Motion blur is pretty awful in most games, but with AI and other innovations why have we not had any improvements in making 30FPS games look and feel smooth?

They have, it's called DLSS3.

 

[March Climber]

They have, it's called DLSS3.

How does DLSS3 help consoles?

 

[Fafalada]

With all these next gen console struggling to reach 60fps, why haven't developers or engines innovated to make 30 FPS games feel smooth and less janky. Motion blur is pretty awful in most games, but with AI and other innovations why have we not had any improvements in making 30FPS games look and feel smooth?

There have been.
Maybe worth noting also that this research predates AI frame-gen by 12+ years:

this has been a topic for as long as games existed.

There were multiple titles released on PS3/360 where the game (input, physics, game-logic, animation etc.) runs at 30fps, but presents(audio, rendering) at 60. People just never noticed it and think those were actual 60fps games (yes, not even the tech channels had any idea), because it worked well enough.
Simulators/racers have been doing physics/simulation and input at much higher tick(up to 480hz in some cases) for 25 years or so, also in an effort to make game feel more responsive irrespective of display refresh.
Not to mention VR titles (on all platforms) have been doing various tricks to increase responsiveness AND perceived framerate from day 1.

Ultimately there's more than a fair share of discussions online about 'why do some 30fps games feel smoother than others' - and it's not all just placebo.

 

[MikeM]

You don’t. You abandon it. TVs have 120fps and higher modes now. Why is 30fps still around?

 

[bitbydeath]

With all these next gen console struggling to reach 60fps, why haven't developers or engines innovated to make 30 FPS games feel smooth and less janky. Motion blur is pretty awful in most games, but with AI and other innovations why have we not had any improvements in making 30FPS games look and feel smooth?

The math was done recently, think we counted about 3 30FPS games in total for this gen. (On PS5)

 

[adamsapple]

Isn't frame generation exactly this? Designed to make lower framerate look more smooth. Also didn't Killzone shadowfall do exactly this in 2013 with temporal reprojection to hit higher generated res and framerate and get universally shat on for not being 'true' framerate/res?

KZ used temporal reconstruction for resolution only, iirc, not frame Gen, temporal reconstruction is used these days almost everywhere anyway.

Frame Gen, as it is, would only really work with a base of 60 fps or higher. 30 fps won't work with it.

 

[rodrigolfp]

How does DLSS3 help consoles?

Teaching Sony and MS to go with Nvidia.

 

[Fafalada]

Frame Gen, as it is, would only really work with a base of 60 fps or higher. 30 fps won't work with it.

It can work fine with lower refresh inputs. See post above - the Force Unleashed experiments did it as low at 15fps with visually acceptable results, and Oculus frame-doubled from 45hz baseline - just for two examples.
Going lower presents bigger challenges with input latency of course - but that's a separate discussion.

 

[rodrigolfp]

Frame Gen, as it is, would only really work with a base of 60 fps or higher. 30 fps won't work with it.

But is does work.

 

[adamsapple]

It can work fine with lower refresh inputs. See post above - the Force Unleashed experiments did it as low at 15fps with visually acceptable results, and Oculus frame-doubled from 45hz baseline - just for two examples.
Going lower presents bigger challenges with input latency of course - but that's a separate discussion.

That Force Unleashed experiment is 14~ years old now. There must have been some other issues with it, otherwise it would have made it to the final version of the game, or patched in later via updates. That technique never found its way to the game its demoed on, nor did any other future games try to use anything like it.

My comment about frame gen (as it is) needing 60 FPS or higher is paraphrasing what AMD have said in regards to things like FSR3 frame gen.

 

[Hollowpoint5557]

30fps on a CRT was a lot different than 30 fps on an LCD.

 

[BlitzerRadic]

KZ used temporal reconstruction for resolution only, iirc, not frame Gen, temporal reconstruction is used these days almost everywhere anyway.

Frame Gen, as it is, would only really work with a base of 60 fps or higher. 30 fps won't work with it.

Thats not true. High end Samsung TVs have Game Motion+ which works on 30fps games

 

[bbeach123]

last of us game feel pretty good to play even on 30fps .

 

[adamsapple]

Thats not true. High end Samsung TVs have Game Motion+ which works on 30fps games

Motion smoothing is absolutely terrible though, it's borderline impossible to play anything that isn't at urn based RPG on it

Also, Tom Cruise hates it.

 

[RoboFu]

Real locked 30 fps is smooth, but these days the main reason a game is 30 fps is because the game can't keep a solid frame rate and because pro consoles / backward compatibility are a thing devs rather leave the game with an unlocked janky frame rate than shooting for a rock solid 30 fps.

 

[Iced Arcade]

They did...they made 60

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Motion blur, good frame pacing and low latency. There are games which run at 30fps which have lower latency than some games at 60fps. Halo 3 supposedly had just 90ms of latency at 30fps on an Xbox 360.

On 360, Gears games were 30 fps. And BF games supposedly were too. Felt like night and day. Gears games felt so much more responsive.

 

[nkarafo]

You can't improve 30fps unless you somehow add frames, which means it won't be 30fps anymore.

The best middle ground is getting a 120hz or 240hz panel or at least vrr and lock at 40fps. That doesn't feel as terrible or laggy as 30fps and it allows for most bells and whistles visually if your system can't handle 60.

 

[BlitzerRadic]

Motion smoothing is absolutely terrible though, it's borderline impossible to play anything that isn't at urn based RPG on it

Also, Tom Cruise hates it.

Wrong. Dont talk about stuff you dont know anything about.

 

[Kataploom]

My issue with 30 is how it looks rather than how it feels, if dinner well it will feel great like Zelda on Switch, but it will look bad to me anyway, too choppy and lacking fluidity

 

[adamsapple]

Wrong. Dont talk about stuff you dont know anything about.

Any kind of TV based interpolation will suck and add a lot of latency and artifacting in fast motion. If Motion + was anywhere near as good as you think, it'd have been a bigger deal.

 

[kunonabi]

Most 30 fps games I've played look and play fine. They're not 60 fps and that's the point. Performance vs quality. That's why we have different settings. The problem is that the very loud minority demands both at the same time.

Yeah, not every genre really needs 60 fps. As long as the game is consistent at the framerate it aims for that's all you really need.

 

[Kumomeme]

FF16 animation is really good. feels smooth and snappy even at 30fps.

 

[Unknown?]

Teaching Sony and MS to go with Nvidia.

They both did and got burned badly.

 

[Gamerguy84]

The Best experience I've had with a 30fps game was Druveclub. Felt very smooth.

 

[Kataploom]

I guess it could be solved on the consumer end with frame interpolation or whatever they call it. Problem is, only nvidia does it well and all the consoles run super old tech or amd. I look forward to someone telling me how I’m wrong, because I probably am.

AMD FG is better than Nvidia's, afaik