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[lastflowers]

So the bits are going to change when the "official release" is upon us?

I believe the thought process is that WP's hubs are moving towards a more extensible framework. Before, we might be able to provide a solid in-hub experience for a couple of apps (twitter, fb), but these interfaces required massive headaches for both parties. They had to maintain APIs, and sometimes MS or the 3rd party broke them (see: various reports of twitter or fb integration breaking). Instead, we moved towards a more generalized implementation that allow easier consumption of content in these feeds by more parties.

Interacting with the data feed requires the third party app developer to implement the ways in which a user can interact. As opposed to interaction being built in to the OS, interaction is now able to be updated at will and iterated on very quickly. This poses a problem for the people using the developer preview, as they haven't had a long time with the OS to optimize the new paradigm. Further, I would hope that devs implement a specific, super speedy interaction model for HUB-type interactions. I don't think any dev has done that yet. Simple apps can load very quickly, it's dependent upon a dev to figure out how to structure their loading processes to ensure a good HUB interaction and a good regular interaction (opening from start-screen). For large code bases, that is probably not an easy, simple thing to do. Smaller apps by devs should be able to do it much more quickly. Randy Huyn, for example, might be able to implement some quick updates to his apps that integrate 6gram, 6chat, etc into the HUBs in the coming weeks.

I still much prefer our old model in many respects, but I don't think it was scalable in its previous implementation. The new model helps keep the same desire, to hook up all feeds into a centralized HUB, but it exposes the ability for DEVs to mess up the extremely unified interaction experience that the previous Hubs offered. Hopefully many devs actually implement their HUB interaction model in such a way that it emulates the 8.0 design....if you get what I mean, though I doubt that will happen.

Spoiler

I didn't reread this. It might ramble.

 

[dLMN8R]

The Facebook app has been poor for years, and that's really the main issue with the new People Hub. So while there may be no OS limitation to the fact it's poor at the moment, we also have no reason to assume that suddenly the Facebook app will be good after all these years either, don't you see our viewpoint?

Edit: I could see the new ME tile being useful once we get a few new People hub apps. Still an easy to go to place to post your updates and such.

The same was said about the apps that came with some pre-RTM Windows 8.0 version and how the big fat "preview" banner in those apps were an indication that they shouldn't be judged like final release versions. Then the consumer version was released and it took another year for those apps to become useful. Nothing is going to get turned around in another 3 months. The Xbox Music beta app has been out for a while now, but very basic things like the fucking scrubber are still missing. That has nothing to do with betas and previews and version numbers and it's simply a case of mismanagement.

That past history is irrelevant to this argument.

The fact of the matter is that Windows Phone 8.1 substantially improves the ability for social apps to build into the hubs in ways they never could before, and in ways where that integration can be updated literally any time instead of waiting for a subsequent OS releases. However, the SDK was literally just released to most developers mere weeks ago, and "special" partners didn't have it much longer than that.

Whether or not developers actually make use of these abilities this time around is tangential to the fact that this is the first time those abilities exist at all, and developers have had barely any time to take advantage of those abilities.


I understand that everyone is excited for new software, but like I've said countless times already, it's still a developer preview for a good reason. It's not going out to the masses yet for many good reasons. Bloggers can claim "it's done!!" till the end of time, but that doesn't mean it's the whole truth.

 

[hadareud]

Excellent posts, thanks MSers.

I get how from a nostalgic point of view people prefer the old people hub, but it's been broken for as long as I can think back. The new hub looks nicer and works, even if some things are missing at the moment. But I can see how it can improve considerably on the old model.

The music app is different. It's broken and not functional at the moment. That and the various bugs need fixing urgently, the people hub just needs some love from devs.

 

[joshschw]

That past history is irrelevant to this argument.

The fact of the matter is that Windows Phone 8.1 substantially improves the ability for social apps to build into the hubs in ways they never could before, and in ways where that integration can be updated literally any time instead of waiting for a subsequent OS releases. However, the SDK was literally just released to most developers mere weeks ago, and "special" partners didn't have it much longer than that.

Whether or not developers actually make use of these abilities this time around is tangential to the fact that this is the first time those abilities exist at all, and developers have had barely any time to take advantage of those abilities.


I understand that everyone is excited for new software, but like I've said countless times already, it's still a developer preview for a good reason. It's not going out to the masses yet for many good reasons. Bloggers can claim "it's done!!" till the end of time, but that doesn't mean it's the whole truth.

I understand, and I remain optimistic and positive about the changes, which are a downgrade at the moment, but I realize it's just a beta developers preview.

And trust me, I understand the detachment of the OS from the hubs is a GOOD thing.

 

[stktt]

Excellent posts, thanks MSers.

I get how from a nostalgic point of view people prefer the old people hub, but it's been broken for as long as I can think back. The new hub looks nicer and works, even if some things are missing at the moment. But I can see how it can improve considerably on the old model.

The music app is different. It's broken and not functional at the moment. That and the various bugs need fixing urgently, the people hub just needs some love from devs.

Yup. The Video app isn't faultless, but it's at least reasonably fast and stable. It makes me wonder why the Music app is essentially unchanged from the "preview" release last year with features as basic as live tiles not even arriving with the first update.

 

[brotkasten]

That past history is irrelevant to this argument.

The fact of the matter are that Windows Phone 8.1 substantially improves the ability for social apps to build into the hubs in ways they never could before, and in ways where that integration can be updated literally any time instead of waiting for a subsequent OS releases. However, the SDK was literally just released to most developers mere weeks ago, and "special" partners didn't have it much longer than that.

Whether or not developers actually make use of these abilities this time around is tangential to the fact that this is the first time those abilities exist at all, and developers have had barely any time to take advantage of those abilities.


I understand that everyone is excited for new software, but like I've said countless times already, it's still a developer preview for a good reason. It's not going out to the masses yet for many good reasons. Bloggers can claim "it's done!!" till the end of time, but that doesn't mean it's the whole truth.

I was talking about the Xbox Music app and other OS apps and how they always seem to take one step forward and two steps back. I was not talking about any of the 3rd party stuff, like Facebook or Twitter or Instagram or whatelse is out there. Only about the experiences developed by Microsoft and your post reminded me of a similar post of yours, how anything with a preview label shouldn't be judged like most people do and yet, the experience doesn't improve that much from now until then, when it's supposed to be "ready". It has to be said again and again, the Music app is total dogshit. It was bad as a beta on Windows Phone 8.0 and it's even worse now and features the Zune HD had 5 years ago are still missing. No preview and beta disclaimer can sugercoat that.

It's cool that developers can now, finally, 4 years after 7.0, integrate their apps more into the OS, but looking at the activity of official apps, we might not see the benefits before Windows Phone v.Next, because those 3rd party publishers are moving very, very slowly on Windows Phone. I wonder how long it's going to take Instagram to drop the beta label, get on feature parity with iOS and Android and integrate their feed into the OS. It won't happen anytime soon, that's for sure. Until then, the user experience for consumers remains worse than it was before the update and I won't ignore the past history, because it taught me to believe in the worst case.

 

[Nero3000]

I can understand why the decision has been made, but I don't share your optimism.

We have gone from a situation where Microsoft controls the experience to where its up to the 3rd parties to deliver - which, not to mince words, historically they have not done.

I know the situation is a lot better, but 3rd party apps arrive late, incomplete and poor performance wise. Updates to these apps are infrequent and well behind other platforms.

The twitter app on Windows 8 still doesn't support custom snap states for fucks sake, and how long has a developer available version for that been out?

I'm a big fan of the stuff Microsoft does and have been on the Windows Phone bandwagon since launch with HD7 to 800 to 925 (and probably 930). Subscribe to Zune Pass/Xbox Music and Office 365. These things have all been done well (although I would like PowerPivot included in my subscription) and that is because Microsoft (not third parties) controlled the whole thing.

The preference for me was for Microsoft to still control the connection to services in a way that they can do it on the backend (through live) and work with changing API's in a way that is seamless to the user and doesn't require updates on the phone. This way has historically provided a top experience as an end user.

 

[hadareud]

The twitter beta app integrates with the people hub already. I think we'll see most social networks integrate in the not too distant future.

The twitter app on Windows is a disgrace on the other hand.

 

[LukasTaves]

http://www.wpcentral.com/social-extensibility-framework-windows-phone-81-will-make-things-better

It's "awful" because you're using a developer preview, which exists explicitly so developers can get early access to it before the vast majority of customers do in order to build their apps in a way that use the new APIs as intended.

Can we expect similar apis in the future for messaging? Would love to have the messaging hub being extensible for 3rd party apps in the same way.

 

[dLMN8R]

I can understand why the decision has been made, but I don't share your optimism.

We have gone from a situation where Microsoft controls the experience to where its up to the 3rd parties to deliver - which, not to mince words, historically they have not done.

I know the situation is a lot better, but 3rd party apps arrive late, incomplete and poor performance wise. Updates to these apps are infrequent and well behind other platforms.

The twitter app on Windows 8 still doesn't support custom snap states for fucks sake, and how long has a developer available version for that been out?

I'm a big fan of the stuff Microsoft does and have been on the Windows Phone bandwagon since launch with HD7 to 800 to 925 (and probably 930). Subscribe to Zune Pass/Xbox Music and Office 365. These things have all been done well (although I would like PowerPivot included in my subscription) and that is because Microsoft (not third parties) controlled the whole thing.

The preference for me was for Microsoft to still control the connection to services in a way that they can do it on the backend (through live) and work with changing API's in a way that is seamless to the user and doesn't require updates on the phone. This way has historically provided a top experience as an end user.

The extremely important fact you're missing is that Microsoft did not own the experience in the previous social integration model. There was a massive amount of work that had tight dependencies on Facebook, Twitter, and other partners building parts of the integration, and ensuring that those things didn't break whenever those services were updated.

Not only was it a huge amount of work on those partners combined with Microsoft, not only did updates to those services require OS updates to fix issues on the client, not only did those updates also depend on mobile operators and device manufacturers to validate those updates, but even after all that work, things usually still didn't work right.

It's far more likely that individual app developers will update their apps in the new, much simpler model, than in the previous model. And when they do, everyone will get those updates right away.

 

[joshschw]

The extremely important fact you're missing is that Microsoft did not own the experience in the previous social integration model. There was a massive amount of work that had tight dependencies on Facebook, Twitter, and other partners building parts of the integration, and ensuring that those things didn't break whenever those services were updated.

Not only was it a huge amount of work on those partners combined with Microsoft, not only did updates to those services require OS updates to fix issues on the client, not only did those updates also depend on mobile operators and device manufacturers to validate those updates, but even after all that work, things usually still didn't work right.

It's far more likely that individual app developers will update their apps in the new, much simpler model, than in the previous model. And when they do, everyone will get those updates right away.

I think this is the best post made on the subject so far, and I thank you for it. I realized there were issues but when you put it so bluntly it makes me realize that the issues - and potential issues - were more severe than I thought

 

[VanMardigan]

I think Apple is moving faster towards the integrated model while it seems like these changes basically mean yet another reboot for devs on windows phone. And Apple is more likely to get the third party support for their efforts than Microsoft is. It's tough to have faith in devs when they've been ignoring the platform for so long. We have the worst version of every major third party service, and now this model depends even more on them.

 

[NeOak]

I chose Windows Phone because of its integration with Facebook and Twitter and linked in, plus the music app.

Xbox music was awful, and it went from awful to worse. The guy who gave that interview in 2012 about starting from scratch made me want to slap him about how proud he was of starting from scratch.

We have an even worse music client than WP8 at launch, and lets not talk about WP7. I used to listen to music on my phone a lot. Now I dread opening that app.

Plus with Facebook integration being so clunky, makes me regret sometimes updating to 8.1. Sure, its new so on that it works, and willing to give it some time.

But please whip whoever had the idea of scratching Zune and creating Xbox Music. Whip 10 times more whoever is responsible for the current music app and its atrocious state.

 

[hwalker84]

I chose Windows Phone because of its integration with Facebook and Twitter and linked in, plus the music app.

Xbox music was awful, and it went from awful to worse. The guy who gave that interview in 2012 about starting from scratch made me want to slap him about how proud he was of starting from scratch.

We have an even worse music client than WP8 at launch, and lets not talk about WP7. I used to listen to music on my phone a lot. Now I dread opening that app.

Plus with Facebook integration being so clunky, makes me regret sometimes updating to 8.1. Sure, its new so on that it works, and willing to give it some time.

But please whip whoever had the idea of scratching Zune and creating Xbox Music. Whip 10 times more whoever is responsible for the current music app and its atrocious state.

Microsoft is a weird bird. Why do they keep starting from scratch? Are they unable to lay a foundation solid enough to continue to innovate on top of? Xbox Music is shameful, Xbox Video is shameful, as well as the Games app. The sync app need to go to hell. Strip out any unnecessary BS from Zune. Rebrand it and call it a day. Whoever thought the sync app is acceptable needs fired.

 

[NeOak]

Microsoft is a weird bird. Why do they keep starting from scratch? Are they unable to lay a foundation solid enough to continue to innovate on top of? Xbox Music is shameful, Xbox Video is shameful, as well as the Games app. The sync app need to go to hell. Strip out any unnecessary BS from Zune. Rebrand it and call it a day. Whoever thought the sync app is acceptable needs fired.

I swear, the Xbox music and video guys use Android/iOS. Aren't they a French team?

 

[Razdek]

Microsoft is a weird bird. Why do they keep starting from scratch? Are they unable to lay a foundation solid enough to continue to innovate on top of? Xbox Music is shameful, Xbox Video is shameful, as well as the Games app. The sync app need to go to hell. Strip out any unnecessary BS from Zune. Rebrand it and call it a day. Whoever thought the sync app is acceptable needs fired.

I'm glad I don't buy anything from the Xbox video store as I would probably end my subscriptions if I had to use that as well as the shit music app.

I have no idea why they have issues with media apps and maybe it's time to just fire that team outright. Surely some must've spoken up about them when they were dog fooding this stuff.

 

[The Flash]

I bet a lot of the goofy things that MS has done in terms of app development will get ironed out with Nadella's "Cloud First, Mobile First" doctrine. I think it's interesting that he put Spencer in charge of Xbox Video/Music. As a games person it'll be intriguing to see what he does with it. Maybe Xbox LIVE Platinum or whatever's more valuable than gold.

 

[Nero3000]

So.....when is the update Xbox Music?

 

[lastflowers]

So.....when is the update Xbox Music?

before dev preview we were getting updates every couple of days or daily. I imagine that'll get stretched out to weekly or bi-weekly releases. A complete shot in the dark though.

 

[Nero3000]

before dev preview we were getting updates every couple of days or daily. I imagine that'll get stretched out to weekly or bi-weekly releases. A complete shot in the dark though.

Is it much better?

Can you at least give us a sign....

 

[lastflowers]

Is it much better?

Can you at least give us a sign....

I hope that the xbox music team working on the app will outline their plans. I can't imagine that they are satisfied with the loading times and various freezes.

 

[PG2G]

before dev preview we were getting updates every couple of days or daily. I imagine that'll get stretched out to weekly or bi-weekly releases. A complete shot in the dark though.

Yeah, they said bi-weekly starting April 22nd. Hopefully we get something soon lol.

The ability to play playlists using Cortana should hold me over while they fix sooner if the performance issues

 

[Razdek]

I swear, the Xbox music and video guys use Android/iOS. Aren't they a French team?

If they're French that explains it. They work like 3 days of the week and the rest of the time just hanging out in front of a patio drinking away.

 

[show me your skeleton]

so the mac connector program went from failing to start at all, to now merely just refusing to sync.
that's progress, i guess.

 

[juliushandle]

Why not just use Mix Radio? You can play your own songs and playlists from there.

 

[SCHUEY F1]

Why not just use Mix Radio? You can play your own songs and playlists from there.

Can't play Xbox Music content.

 

[José Mourinho]

I think as somebody who is relatively new to software to development it's easy to understand why people get so frustrated at things. However, when you come to find out how many software releases ever actually ship on time with decent functionality -- never mind the full functionality that was planned from the start -- it's really not surprising that things rarely live up to expectations, particularly when those things are developer previews. It's easy to think that a company with Microsoft's power and financial weight should get these things right but it's not as simple as that.

Kind of reminds me of a friend of mine who constantly complains about certain software oversights on the Xbox One, saying "Why not just put it in there?" as if it's that easy.

 

[juliushandle]

Can't play Xbox Music content.

Well there's your problem.

 

[SCHUEY F1]

Well there's your problem.

Lol, I love Xbox Music even with the current issues the WP app is having. Luckily I'm a pretty patient person.

 

[juliushandle]

I actually loved Xbox music too when I had it. I bought an android tablet though and the Xbox music app was shit. When MS released the separate Xbox music app on WP a few months ago, guess what, it was the same shitty performance as the android app. I lost faith in Xbox music and didn't renew.

 

[Rushersauce]

The randomizer in Xbox Music blows and the constant crashes are annoying as fuck. Also, Xbox Music doesn't show some of the artwork that it used to show and, it's kinda slow.
Internet Explorer has its problems, too! Sometimes it starts to flash and then it crashes.
Push notifications work whenever they want, and it annoys me that when I check whatsapp, I have messages from hours ago.

 

[PG2G]

So... about that update?

 

[juliushandle]

So... about that update?

Xbox music team, hard at work since zune's demise.

 

[stktt]

So... about that update?

It's loading, resuming, crashing, and loading again. Please be patient.

 

[NeOak]

I think as somebody who is relatively new to software to development it's easy to understand why people get so frustrated at things. However, when you come to find out how many software releases ever actually ship on time with decent functionality -- never mind the full functionality that was planned from the start -- it's really not surprising that things rarely live up to expectations, particularly when those things are developer previews. It's easy to think that a company with Microsoft's power and financial weight should get these things right but it's not as simple as that.

Kind of reminds me of a friend of mine who constantly complains about certain software oversights on the Xbox One, saying "Why not just put it in there?" as if it's that easy.

If it isn't broken, why fix it?

 

[Ape]

What is a good transparent tile weather app?

 

[hwalker84]

What is a good transparent tile weather app?

New amazing weather update is... amazing

 

[Razdek]

If it isn't broken, why fix it?

I think everyone on the Zune team left and the new guys who took over were like "I don't know how this works, everyone is gone. Let's just build a new app from scratch" and voila, shitty Xbox music app.

 

[lastflowers]

I think everyone on the Zune team left and the new guys who took over were like "I don't know how this works, everyone is gone. Let's just build a new app from scratch" and voila, shitty Xbox music app.

The Zune team is the same team that released windows phone iirc.

 

[Ape]

New amazing weather update is... amazing

Is there a free one?

 

[Razdek]

The Zune team is the same team that released windows phone iirc.

Oh nice, they did a good job then. Whomever did the Xbox music app though deserve all the complaints it is getting and unfortunately I have to use it daily.

 

[Razdek]

Does anyone else feel like the phone charges faster on 8.1? Not sure if it's just a placebo effect but to me it feels like it does.

 

[Steelyuhas]

Does anyone else feel like the phone charges faster on 8.1? Not sure if it's just a placebo effect but to me it feels like it does.

Feels like it charges slower for me actually, at least with the Qi charger.

 

[Magni]

So... how do I add Facebook info to a contact? I've tried swiping to 'Connect', tapping 'Facebook', tapping 'link', but my Facebook contacts don't show up...

Forcing a resync solved the problem.

 

[Razdek]

Feels like it charges slower for me actually, at least with the Qi charger.

I don't have a wireless charger to test but it seems faster with a charger and usb cable to me.

 

[derFeef]

New amazing weather update is... amazing

Oh neat! Is there a way to force updates other than uninstalling/installing?

 

[lastflowers]

Oh neat! Is there a way to force updates other than uninstalling/installing?

rebooting your phone can flush the cache. I think there's a way to do it in the store app, but I've forgotten. Maybe go to 'Downloads' or 'Settings' and I think there's a button 'Check for Updates' somewhere in the store app

 

[Steelyuhas]

rebooting your phone can flush the cache. I think there's a way to do it in the store app, but I've forgotten. Maybe go to 'Downloads' or 'Settings' and I think there's a button 'Check for Updates' somewhere in the store app

Store -> Settings -> Check for Updates

 

[Magni]

So... where is the documentation for this social extensibility framework? I'm making an app for a social network that is yet to be on WP, and this kind of functionality would be an awesome feature that the iOS and Android clients wouldn't be able to match.

Not saying what it is yet because it's so far out from being ready and I don't want to get peoples' hopes up, but once a private beta is on the near horizon I'll be posting a link for people here to try it out

Oh neat! Is there a way to force updates other than uninstalling/installing?

Search for the app in the store (or look in the "my apps" section).

 

[maeh2k]

Is there a free one?

Blue Skies is free at the moment.