Support NeoGAF

[borghe]

vanilla wow (truly vanilla wow, not "classic") is all rose tinted glasses. And as someone who's account was created Nov 24th, 2004, I can say that it was indeed GLORIOUS rose tinted glasses. To this day I have never been more blown away by a game, MMORPG or otherwise, than WoW. This includes UO at launch, and even EQ at launch (which is at least a much closer 2nd) or even Mario64 or OoT. WoW was so realized (at the time) and so far beyond everything else at launch that it was impossible not to be in sheer awe of it.

but that was 6 years ago. and what was advanced and genre-changing back then is antiquated and archaic now. The amazement of it and the great time I had with friends was more impressive than the actual game design.

WoW now is SOOOO much better, and thankfully cataclysm has gotten pretty much everyone back together. it's not even a comparison. I get the criticisms that leveling it too "easy" now. and good. it should be. you should be learning your class and slicing through leveling quests and dungeons with ease. Because until everyone is overgeared and simply running dailies for points, heroics are where the challenge is at. shit, we've wiped a couple of times so far just learning Halls of Origination and Vortex Pinnacle on regular. And some higher up guys have wiped more than a few times on Heroic Halls and SFK. Enjoy it now... because pugging those for at least the next few months is going to be downright brutal. Shit, pugging normals has been a painful experience.. thankfully I've only pugged about half of my runs and the other half have been guildies. I can only guess pugging heroics is going to be just awful for the next few months.. at least into late winter when most are overeared and the strategies are second nature.

Remember old Azshara? Attunement for raids? Getting stuck with 10 quests left that were all telling you to kill elites all over the world map but no one was around to form a group to do it?

the ubrs key.............. one of the only times I felt blizz could truly fuck themselves. onyxia was annoying.. MC was fine as you could just spam LFG with a request to do an attunement run. BWL, SC and Strat you just had to not be an idiot. but fucking UBRS. WTF were they thinking. IF YOU WERE LUCKY, you only had to run LBRS three times. That means that a different gem dropped in each run, and no one else needed the gem. IF anyone else needed a gem, or if the same gem dropped, well that was one run shot to kaput. I ran LBRS probably 30+ times and stopped finally when I got the damn key... and LBRS was NOT a fun dungeon.

attunment was annoying... but it was more of just running around wasting some time. none of it was that awful except for UBRS. That can go fuck itself.

 

[Scrow]

Also when you do this, remember Outland was heralded as a revelation, a godsend, of quest and area design.

Outland used to be by far the best thing in the game.

yeah, and at the time it was a MASSIVE upgrade from vanilla. same was true of wotlk and now cata. blizz are just that awesome. best developer by far. only valve is a contender.

Old WOW fucking sucked. Play 60-70 in Outland and try to keep a straight face while still telling everyone you want old WOW questing back.

yeah, as much as i enjoyed BC and WotLK at the time, i don't think i could ever level characters through that content again. that pretty much leaves me with my druid who is 85, and my warlock who is 78 (close enough to cata level to smash through storm peaks and then go to hyjal at 80).

i love that i eventually made my druid main so that if i ever get bored of melee DPS, i can just re-spec and re-gear to healing, tanking or caster DPS... no need to re-level a character ever again.

 

[borghe]

yeah, as much as i enjoyed BC and WotLK at the time, i don't think i could ever level characters through that content again. that pretty much leaves me with my druid who is 85, and my warlock who is 78 (close enough to cata level to smash through storm peaks and then go to hyjal at 80).

nah.... with the new xp rates you are through BC in a hardcore weekend or a casual week. you are through WotLK (which isn't bad at all and very close to Cata in terms of quest/leveling upgrades) in a hardcore 3-5 days or a casual 1.5-2 weeks.

 

[piratepwnsninja]

nah.... with the new xp rates you are through BC in a hardcore weekend or a casual week. you are through WotLK (which isn't bad at all and very close to Cata in terms of quest/leveling upgrades) in a hardcore 3-5 days or a casual 1.5-2 weeks.

Yeah, I left Swamp of Sorrows at level 59 last night around 11pm and went to Outlands. Started questing and stayed queued for dungeons and by 12:30 I was level 61. Shouldn't be too painful.

 

[Lenardo]

ya'll are youngsters wow wise, the revised vanilla wow is soo much BETTER as a Game than original wow, there is no comparison

someone above said they made their character on release day, & they probably played beta.

i had a GM say that my wife's acocunt was the oldest he had ever seen (originally my account she took it over) because he didn't believe the date given for when it was made....in alpha.


wow is by far the best fantasy mmo game out there currently and has been for the past 6 years since release.

i am loving the quest lines with the in game cinematics. the boat ride (alliance) to vashir was the best, especially whoever did the voice for Budd...my wife and i were howling, then the end started and i saw someone actually type in holy shit on the ride.(btw you can fly to vashir without porting fly due west from gnomegan and you make it easily)...and can fly around most of vashir as well)

my wife and i are old school, we go zone from zone, and do ALL the quests and we promised- due to phasing- that we would not do any quests without the other there to prevent phasing conflicts.

i am halfway thru 83 and we are about 1/3rd the way thru vashir (we just finished up the giant snail thingy quest and did a couple with the divers and the anenome scent)


we should most likely finish vashir tonite and then move onto deepholm. we'll be 85 before we get thru uldum i bet

my wife is a hunter so she grinds a lot of mobs to level her pets

i'm an alchemist/herbalist(enhance shaman- wielding 2 360dps weapons)) i do my gathering of herbs..in twilight highlands mobs their are pretty easy @83(i have 62.5k hp).

 

[brentech]

Stole features? Damn. They simply saw that QuestHelper was so popular that almost everyone used it, so the implemented it. They have been doing that with every more-than-insanely-popular addon so far, but to call it a steal...damn, one gotta have balls.

Well, it's not stealing only because the creators of addons know they're allowed to do so. Other than that, it most definitely is stealing.

As you said, all the crazy mainstream addon's they've adopted into the game. There is a lot of very simple addon's that existed in vanilla WOW like scrolling combat text and unit-frames....such basic necessities, but they weren't in the game itself, you had to get them from an outside source (a lot of people that didn't play the game in vanilla have no idea that that shit used to be an addon, almost everything in the damn game that provides useful info is someone else's idea, lol).

Everything that became a must have, they've stolen the general idea and patched into the core game, but they usually still are less useful than the actual addon. I understand they created the game with the ability for people to make addons/macros and share, but it still essentially comes down to "we didn't think of that before"..."MINE". Theft.

 

[webrunner]

Well, it's not stealing only because the creators of addons know they're allowed to do so. Other than that, it most definitely is stealing.

As you said, all the crazy mainstream addon's they've adopted into the game. There is a lot of very simple addon's that existed in vanilla WOW like scrolling combat text and unit-frames....such basic necessities, but they weren't in the game itself, you had to get them from an outside source (a lot of people that didn't play the game in vanilla have no idea that that shit used to be an addon, almost everything in the damn game that provides useful info is someone else's idea, lol).

Everything that became a must have, they've stolen the general idea and patched into the core game, but they usually still are less useful than the actual addon. I understand they created the game with the ability for people to make addons/macros and share, but it still essentially comes down to "we didn't think of that before"..."MINE". Theft.

I think if you make an addon, for free, you're basically saying "I think World of Warcraft could certainly use this feature". By making an addon at all, there's almost an implicit suggestion to blizzard to implement it themselves. If then World of Warcraft gets that feature, I don't see how that's a bad thing for anybody?

 

[Yaweee]

Well, it's not stealing only because the creators of addons know they're allowed to do so. Other than that, it most definitely is stealing.

As you said, all the crazy mainstream addon's they've adopted into the game. There is a lot of very simple addon's that existed in vanilla WOW like scrolling combat text and unit-frames....such basic necessities, but they weren't in the game itself, you had to get them from an outside source (a lot of people that didn't play the game in vanilla have no idea that that shit used to be an addon, almost everything in the damn game that provides useful info is someone else's idea, lol).

Everything that became a must have, they've stolen the general idea and patched into the core game, but they usually still are less useful than the actual addon. I understand they created the game with the ability for people to make addons/macros and share, but it still essentially comes down to "we didn't think of that before"..."MINE". Theft.

Remember the good old days when you needed a fucking mod to get instant quest text?

 

[Pride]

I have a dilema, I saw my wife bought me WOW: Cat Standard Edition for Xmas but I start my vacation this week and really want WOW: Cat LE (I have all the LE's as I'm a big Blizzard fan). Really considering buying the LE on the DL and hoping she doesnt put 2 and 2 together when I start playing WOW again all the sudden. Decisions, decisions...

 

[ultron87]

I have a dilema, I saw my wife bought me WOW: Cat Standard Edition for Xmas but I start my vacation this week and really want WOW: Cat LE (I have all the LE's as I'm a big Blizzard fan). Really considering buying the LE on the DL and hoping she doesnt put 2 and 2 together when I start playing WOW again all the sudden. Decisions, decisions...

Either just mention that you picked up the WoW expansion in conversation and she'll go "well that's nice" and quietly return the expansion she bought for something else, or tell her you saw her buy it and that it was really thoughtful, and you'd really like to start playing it a bit early so could you pretty please get it before Christmas?

 

[brentech]

I think if you make an addon, for free, you're basically saying "I think World of Warcraft could certainly use this feature". By making an addon at all, there's almost an implicit suggestion to blizzard to implement it themselves. If then World of Warcraft gets that feature, I don't see how that's a bad thing for anybody?

Never implied it was bad at all. I also noted that the addon developers know that Blizzard can do this, I'm just saying that they still "steal" the idea.
Generally they don't even implement said idea in a good enough way for the the addon to stop existing unless it's a extremely simple function.

Don't get me wrong though, addon's and general game customization is one of WoWs strongest points.


edit:

Remember the good old days when you needed a fucking mod to get instant quest text?

Exactly. Pretty much basic necessities to most players these days were created by an outside source a long time back. Blizzard was smart enough to take most of those ideas. It's smart on their part as they save some time, but yet the re-create it on their own anyways...

 

[Nostalgic Nightmare]

Retribution sucks SO MUCH now. It's making me lose my will to live.

You have to watch your Holy Power, Exorcism and Mastery procs, trinket, Avenging Wrath and Zealotry CDs, keep Inquisition up at all times, pay attention to the priority rotation... And the result is less DPS than most tanks are pulling nowadays. Meanwhile Arcane Mages are pulling awesome DPS with three different spells, one resource to manage and one CD.

Our Mastery sucks. We have no AoE. Inquisition is ridiculous. There are times when there is absolutely nothing to do, even if you follow your rotation perfectly, and the only thing we can do to increase our DPS is to pray as hard as we can for the RNG to give us Exorcism procs every 3 seconds.

Unfortunately we have to deal with completely retarded decisions like Templar's Verdict not refreshing Inquisition and Divine Storm sharing a cooldown with Crusader's Strike, and the fact that the only ability we have that really damages enemies is Exorcism. Templar's Verdict just isn't worth it, considering the build-up.

I feel ya man, but you forgot Hammer of Wrath or Avenging Wrath/HoW
For right now, I macro Avenging Wrath and Crusader strike, but what is the consensus on Inquisition? Is it worth waiting for 3 HP or just to get it off once you get the first HP?

 

[ACE 1991]

*Wall of text*

I emphatically agree with all that you've said. I used to yearn for Blizzard to release a vanilla WoW server, but now I realize that I would in actuality hate this. The truth of the matter is vanilla WoW seemed incredible at the time because the game's mechanics and world were fresh. Unfortunately, no matter how much Blizzard improves the game from here on out it just isn't possible for them to evoke the same feelings I experienced in those first couple years.

 

[kodt]

Yeah Vanilla WoW was fun but had some serious flaws. I started in beta and loved the game, but there were several issues.

1. At points the quest breadcrumbs would just stop and you wouldn't know where to go.
2. You routinely had quests that were red to you and would have to either grind mobs or go somewhere else and level first.
3. Several zones just didn't have many quests and went unused.
4. Dungeon quests might be spread around so unless you knew where to find them you would complete dungeons without doing the quests.
5. Finding a group for dungeons was a pain, and required spamming LFG and waiting unless you had an active guild with people your level. If you leveled slower than your guildies you were left behind.
6. Original endgame sort of sucked. Apart from the attunement and other quest issues people mentioned, every guild seemed to run on DKP in those days. So unless you played a ton, you never got enough DKP to even roll on anything. I remember raiding over and over but since I hit 60 later than most of the guild I never had enough DKP to get a single drop. It didn't help that we were running 20 man in dungeons that are now 5 man.

My favorite part about vanilla wow was just exploring the game world. Even though some zones went unused, it was fun as I would explore. The fact that no quests led you to these zones made it a bit more of an adventure going out there. Blizzard did a great job designing the game world. Even if the quests in some zones were poorly done.

Another thing I liked about vanilla wow was the PVP, before battlegrounds people had to PVP in the game world. To me this felt more natural and immersive. The big issue of course was that one side would always retreat to a city that had infinitely spawning guards.

I do think that they made dungeons a little too easy now, I remember struggling and wiping on almost every instance when I played vanilla. But now we just blow through them all.

Now questing is much better both in content and flow, dungeon finder is sweet and allows anyone to find groups. Daily quests allow you to get rep with factions and buy decently good epic items. Items and rewards from professions are better. There are just so many more ways for people to gear up without needing to be a hardcore raider.

Then of course the hardcore raids are still there.

 

[piratepwnsninja]

Yeah Vanilla WoW was fun but had some serious flaws. I started in beta and loved the game, but there were several issues.

1. At points the quest breadcrumbs would just stop and you wouldn't know where to go.
2. You routinely had quests that were red to you and would have to either grind mobs or go somewhere else and level first.
3. Several zones just didn't have many quests and went unused.
4. Dungeon quests might be spread around so unless you knew where to find them you would complete dungeons without doing the quests.
5. Finding a group for dungeons was a pain, and required spamming LFG and waiting unless you had an active guild with people your level. If you leveled slower than your guildies you were left behind.
6. Original endgame sort of sucked. Apart from the attunement and other quest issues people mentioned, every guild seemed to run on DKP in those days. So unless you played a ton, you never got enough DKP to even roll on anything. I remember raiding over and over but since I hit 60 later than most of the guild I never had enough DKP to get a single drop. It didn't help that we were running 20 man in dungeons that are now 5 man.

My favorite part about vanilla wow was just exploring the game world. Even though some zones went unused, it was fun as I would explore. The fact that no quests led you to these zones made it a bit more of an adventure going out there. Blizzard did a great job designing the game world. Even if the quests in some zones were poorly done.

Another thing I liked about vanilla wow was the PVP, before battlegrounds people had to PVP in the game world. To me this felt more natural and immersive. The big issue of course was that one side would always retreat to a city that had infinitely spawning guards.

I do think that they made dungeons a little too easy now, I remember struggling and wiping on almost every instance when I played vanilla. But now we just blow through them all.

Now questing is much better both in content and flow, dungeon finder is sweet and allows anyone to find groups. Daily quests allow you to get rep with factions and buy decently good epic items. Items and rewards from professions are better. There are just so many more ways for people to gear up without needing to be a hardcore raider.

Then of course the hardcore raids are still there.

Are you actually blowing through the new dungeons? I'll agree on the WotLK dungeons, but the Cata ones are no cakewalk.

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

As someone who started in Vanilla WoW I agree Cataclysm makes the old content much better. The only thing that may/may not be better is the amount of satisfaction you get from getting an awesome drop.

I remember back in the day I was just randomly killing some elementals to farm mats for my Robe of the Archmage and a motherfucking Eye of Flame dropped. I pissed my pants for about three hours after that happened. Now it seems like epics are a ton easier to get, so it takes away from the excitement a bit. It certainly doesn't take away enough to offset the fact that in Vanilla only a handful of the best and most hardcore guilds ever saw all of the content. I mean, hell, BWL was a pipe dream for me to even get to when my guild wasn't even clearing ZG or MC at the time.

Also, has anyone else had trouble with the final alliance quest in Vashj'ir where you have to ride the sub around the vortex area? It is thoroughly bugged, and I learned that the harsh way when I drowned while trapped inside the thing, then couldn't retrieve my corpse as it was in a different phase.

 

[Brandon F]

Holy shit at Badlands questline

Spoiler

Punch Deathwing in the face!

 

[Pinzer]

People who ran out of quests in vanilla wow were doing it wrong. You did have to move around to different zones a lot, but there were always enough quests to reach 60 without grinding.

I feel like some of the new content is too fast. I remember spending hours and hours questing and exploring Stranglethorn, and the whole jungle atmosphere really sank in because I was forced to be there for so long. Now, on the Lost Isles (goblin starting area) you move from area to area so quickly it just ends up feeling like a clusterfuck. Plus, more and more of the new quests are gimmicky vehicle ones or involve some stupid usable quest item. While the normal "kill 10 of x" are common, at least they make use of the great combat mechanics WoW has developed.

Vashj'ir, however, seems slower paced and is laced with atmosphere. Although the Horde entrance to the zone ended up being kind of lame due to the terrible voice acting.

 

[borghe]

1. At points the quest breadcrumbs would just stop and you wouldn't know where to go.

This still happened in early BC. It's been so long since I started a BE, but my wife yesterday (very very noobie) said she didn't have any quests and I simply couldn't believe her. I mean wow ALWAYS tells you where to go. and lo and behold, she didn't have a quest and running back to earlier areas I couldn't find a single quest telling her where to move onto next. Rather than screwing around with it, I just ported her to Brill.

4. Dungeon quests might be spread around so unless you knew where to find them you would complete dungeons without doing the quests.

dungeon quests were the worst for so so so many reasons. First, dungeon quests usually were the end quest of a "single player" quest chain. So you'd do this entire 10 quest long chain, only to not be able to see the end of it without running an instance. second, the loot was always decent for finishing the quest, but never so much so that it was irreplaceable. even in true vanilla the longest used leveling blues were drops, not rewards. from an exploration standpoint, the old dungeon quests were novel and interesting. Form a gameplay standpoint, it was a pretty miserable mechanic.

5. Finding a group for dungeons was a pain, and required spamming LFG and waiting unless you had an active guild with people your level. If you leveled slower than your guildies you were left behind.

dungeons before dungeon finder were like long distance communication before the telephone. there is nothing more that need be said. LFG was dead on arrival, and meeting stones still didn't fix half of the problem to begin with, the long trek to get to the dungeon. and given the harder nature of the dungeons, up to BC a dungeon pug for anything Uld or higher often resulted in x number of wipes out of y successful runs. The end game dungeons were constant wipefests.. Pre-BC I can't count the number of successful PUG UBRS runs on two hands. Hell, I probably only need one more hand to count the number of PUG attempts I was in that made it past Rend.

I do think that they made dungeons a little too easy now, I remember struggling and wiping on almost every instance when I played vanilla. But now we just blow through them all.

nah... I think people are saying this because WotLK is two years old. I've been in PUGs that have wiped on thrones and BRC already.. a few actually. tanks not keeping aggro, healers not keeping up, etc.

Also one part is that end game gearing is different now than vanilla. Previously you had your 60 blues from Strat, Scholo and UBRS. There was literally nothing better in the game without going to MC or ZG. (which required 24 or 39 other people). Nowadays with raid seasons and badges/points, run enough dailies and enough heroics, and you will eventually end up overgeared for the heroics. with minimal coordination and well known strategies/tactics, an overgeared PUG will easily be able to beat the heroics. With enough of those and well known strategies/tactics, eventually the 10-man raids are doable in a pug.

I'm not ripping it.. just explaining that the dungeons themselves aren't easier. What's become easier is that blizzard allows non-raiders to gear up, past the heroics, thanks to the raid seasons and allowing non-hardcore folks the ability to buy raid-lite gear. While not scaling the heroics at the same time, it's only a matter of time before they become trivial.

HOWEVER, in the mean time I disagree that dungeons are considerably easier. There's already been more than one PUG run since last week that I am ashamed to admit has been disbanded because of the PUG simply not being able to handle the coordination. And even guild runs, like I said before, might end up with a wipe or two on the way to clear just figuring things out for the first time.

 

[Brandon F]

New WoW is clearly superior to vanilla WoW, about the only misstep I am finding is how damn quick the pacing is now. Blizzard is rushing everyone to the endgame raiding content at lightspeeds that it is almost impossible to appreciate much of the experience. Hitting new levels 5-6 years ago was something to relish, it happened almost too sluggishly, but the stat adjustment was noticeable and you had opportune time to soak in your changes and appreciate what a 'ding' meant.

Now I'm almost dissapointed when I level, suddenly the dungeon finder completely negates me from entering entire instances I wanted to try because I did three quests and that other dungeon and overleveled past it. My skillbar is maxing out faster than I can even adjust to learning my abilities. I have multiple situational skills that I have YET to ever touch or use because no situation has demanded it, mostly because I am leveling so fast I can just kill without 'learning' my spec proper trial-by-fire style.

I understand the desire for Blizzard to cater to the hardcore(and even the casuals) by giving them a brisk experience to move through the content and to see all the work put into the endgame. But it really comes at the expense of 90% of the game feeling totally ancillary. It's cute to witness the vignettes and stories in the old zones, but there is no satisfaction to my progression at all. Leveling feels like a cheat is turned on and it somewhat sours that aspect of the game. I have accomplished levels 1-60 in 1 week, a feat that took -months- years ago, but it is a far less compelling achievement despite the MUCH improved questlines.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

New WoW is clearly superior to vanilla WoW, about the only misstep I am finding is how damn quick the pacing is now. Blizzard is rushing everyone to the endgame raiding content at lightspeeds that it is almost impossible to appreciate much of the experience. Hitting new levels 5-6 years ago was something to relish, it happened almost too sluggishly, but the stat adjustment was noticeable and you had opportune time to soak in your changes and appreciate what a 'ding' meant.

Now I'm almost dissapointed when I level, suddenly the dungeon finder completely negates me from entering entire instances I wanted to try because I did three quests and that other dungeon and overleveled past it. My skillbar is maxing out faster than I can even adjust to learning my abilities. I have multiple situational skills that I have YET to ever touch or use because no situation has demanded it, mostly because I am leveling so fast I can just kill without 'learning' my spec proper trial-by-fire style.

I understand the desire for Blizzard to cater to the hardcore(and even the casuals) by giving them a brisk experience to move through the content and to see all the work put into the endgame. But it really comes at the expense of 90% of the game feeling totally ancillary. It's cute to witness the vignettes and stories in the old zones, but there is no satisfaction to my progression at all. Leveling feels like a cheat is turned on and it somewhat ours that aspect of the game. I have accomplished levels 1-60 in 1 week, a feat that took -months- years ago, but it was a far less compelling achievement despite the MUCH improved questlines.

Blizzard has made it easier and faster, but a bigger part is that you're just better and faster at the game. 1-85 is still longer and more grueling than 1-60 used to be.

Almost all old WOW nostalgia just comes down to wanting to experience the game for the first time again. You can never go back home. You really liked the achievement of leveling because you were so bad that it took forever and it was an achievement.

 

[Raide]

New WoW is clearly superior to vanilla WoW, about the only misstep I am finding is how damn quick the pacing is now. Blizzard is rushing everyone to the endgame raiding content at lightspeeds that it is almost impossible to appreciate much of the experience.

A huge amount of WoW players never get past the mid 20's. (I think they did a study to show how many, will have to hunt for link) Only the dedicated have the time to level cap, so Blizzard is just upping the pace to help more players actually see end-game content.

Personally I like the new pace. Now I actually enjoy levelling a new character without the endless grind from 1 - 85. :lol

 

[Fallout-NL]

I emphatically agree with all that you've said. I used to yearn for Blizzard to release a vanilla WoW server, but now I realize that I would in actuality hate this. The truth of the matter is vanilla WoW seemed incredible at the time because the game's mechanics and world were fresh. Unfortunately, no matter how much Blizzard improves the game from here on out it just isn't possible for them to evoke the same feelings I experienced in those first couple years.

Yeah, those first couple of weeks especially. It felt like an actual world instead of just 'zones'. I remember the first night where I got a quest to go to Darkshore that I should have done way later (due to its level, I was lvl 9 I think), but I was determined to go visit that tree all the way down in Darkshore. I had to sneak past all sorts of shit way more powerful than I was. It was stupid, but it was great.

My brother and friends had started in Elwynn so I had to make the epic journey across continents to join them early on. That was epic as well.

Now I experience WoW more as a grind and an infinite collection of fetch quests, that's what it always was of course. But my own amazement with the game at the beginning allowed me to be unaware of that.

We'll probably need an entirely new MMO to recreate that feeling.

 

[Brandon F]

HOWEVER, in the mean time I disagree that dungeons are considerably easier. There's already been more than one PUG run since last week that I am ashamed to admit has been disbanded because of the PUG simply not being able to handle the coordination. And even guild runs, like I said before, might end up with a wipe or two on the way to clear just figuring things out for the first time.

Oh man I disagree. Everything has been nerfed. Granted I have only touched the 1-60 five-man dungeons. But they are a joke now. I'm sure it might have been that way for years over patch changes, but back in 'year 1' of WoW they were multi-hour affairs where every trash group was something to fear and commanded communication.

Now the tank just pulls everything and everyone goes nuts for 30 minutes until entire runs are over, no need for skillful CC. I kinda prefer it this way, I like doing 3-4 runs in the time it used to take 1; but it does really dampen the satisfaction of a proper clear.

 

[cuevas. PhD.]

New WoW is clearly superior to vanilla WoW, about the only misstep I am finding is how damn quick the pacing is now. Blizzard is rushing everyone to the endgame raiding content at lightspeeds that it is almost impossible to appreciate much of the experience. Hitting new levels 5-6 years ago was something to relish, it happened almost too sluggishly, but the stat adjustment was noticeable and you had opportune time to soak in your changes and appreciate what a 'ding' meant.

Now I'm almost dissapointed when I level, suddenly the dungeon finder completely negates me from entering entire instances I wanted to try because I did three quests and that other dungeon and overleveled past it. My skillbar is maxing out faster than I can even adjust to learning my abilities. I have multiple situational skills that I have YET to ever touch or use because no situation has demanded it, mostly because I am leveling so fast I can just kill without 'learning' my spec proper trial-by-fire style.

I understand the desire for Blizzard to cater to the hardcore(and even the casuals) by giving them a brisk experience to move through the content and to see all the work put into the endgame. But it really comes at the expense of 90% of the game feeling totally ancillary. It's cute to witness the vignettes and stories in the old zones, but there is no satisfaction to my progression at all. Leveling feels like a cheat is turned on and it somewhat sours that aspect of the game. I have accomplished levels 1-60 in 1 week, a feat that took -months- years ago, but it is a far less compelling achievement despite the MUCH improved questlines.

So is the game even easier than it was in WOTLK? Hard-modes barely made up for what they tried doing then. Even after killing yogg back then the game felt too easy, getting alts good gear was a joke too when you knew what you were doing.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Yeah, those first couple of weeks especially. It felt like an actual world instead of just 'zones'. I remember the first night where I got a quest to go to Darkshore that I should have done way later (due to its level, I was lvl 9 I think), but I was determined to go visit that tree all the way down in Darkshore. I had to sneak past all sorts of shit way more powerful than I was. It was stupid, but it was great.

My brother and friends had started in Elwynn so I had to make the epic journey across continents to join them early on. That was epic as well.

Even just finding the tram between Stormwind and Ironforge is a big deal and epic to a person with new eyes. Draenei and Night Elves still have to do a lot of running and boat riding to get to friends. It's all cool as hell today to new people.

One thing we didn't get is feeling so incredibly weak when we hit the big city and seeing the new 85s. When we used to do it, it was obvious who the 60s were, but they weren't blowaway amazing. Now level 10 people are checking out guys in incredibly detailed gear riding fucking dragons.

 

[Ferrio]

Now the tank just pulls everything and everyone goes nuts for 30 minutes until entire runs are over, no need for skillful CC. I kinda prefer it this way, I like doing 3-4 runs in the time it used to take 1; but it does really dampen the satisfaction of a proper clear.

Alot of the runs I've been doing in the new dungeon people are using CC (only done non heroics so far). What surprised me was not only the use of CC, but the fact that quite a few players still know how to do it and do it correctly.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Oh man I disagree. Everything has been nerfed. Granted I have only touched the 1-60 five-man dungeons. But they are a joke now. I'm sure it might have been that way for years over patch changes, but back in 'year 1' of WoW they were multi-hour affairs where every trash group was something to fear and commanded communication.

Now the tank just pulls everything and everyone goes nuts for 30 minutes until entire runs are over, no need for skillful CC. I kinda prefer it this way, I like doing 3-4 runs in the time it used to take 1; but it does really dampen the satisfaction of a proper clear.

Back then, people didn't know shit about proper gear or their role in a group. Remember tanks that didn't know how to tank? Healers that didn't actually heal? I even remember not forming a group unless we found two healers because we were all so incompetent. The game tells you what you are now, and you can be vote kicked for not understanding so you learn it out of necessity.

I remember the fucking floods of stupid warriors trying to tank with two-handed axes in berserker stance.

 

[Zerokku]

Alot of the runs I've been doing in the new dungeon people are using CC (only done non heroics so far). What surprised me was not only the use of CC, but the fact that quite a few players still know how to do it and do it correctly.

God I remember being praised to no end for being able to chain trap well on my hunter in BC. Maining a DK now though so my CC options are... yah.

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

Even just finding the tram between Stormwind and Ironforge is a big deal and epic to a person with new eyes. Draenei and Night Elves still have to do a lot of running and boat riding to get to friends. It's all cool as hell today to new people.

One thing we didn't get is feeling so incredibly weak when we hit the big city and seeing the new 85s. When we used to do it, it was obvious who the 60s were, but they weren't blowaway amazing. Now level 10 people are checking out guys in incredibly detailed gear riding fucking dragons.

I actually completely FORGOT the tram existed until you mentioned it just now. Advantage of having a mage as a main, I guess.

 

[Fallout-NL]

Even just finding the tram between Stormwind and Ironforge is a big deal and epic to a person with new eyes. Draenei and Night Elves still have to do a lot of running and boat riding to get to friends. It's all cool as hell today to new people.

Oh definitely. Though I think the people 'susceptible' to such an experience have probably already tried WoW.

One thing we didn't get is feeling so incredibly weak when we hit the big city and seeing the new 85s. When we used to do it, it was obvious who the 60s were, but they weren't blowaway amazing. Now level 10 people are checking out guys in incredibly detailed gear riding fucking dragons.

Yeah, to the point where the high level players appear walking stereotypes no doubt.

 

[cuevas. PhD.]

God I remember being praised to no end for being able to chain trap well on my hunter in BC. Maining a DK now though so my CC options are... yah.

What? Being able to CC correctly and not break it like a dumbass was just a standard...

 

[Brandon F]

Alot of the runs I've been doing in the new dungeon people are using CC (only done non heroics so far). What surprised me was not only the use of CC, but the fact that quite a few players still know how to do it and do it correctly.

I haven't seen a single shackle(does it even exist anymore?), banish, or other such skill use having ran every 5 man dungeon(1-60 content) multiple times in the past week. People may do it cool, but it's never necessary. Tank pulls everything and everyone else kills, while healer heals. Not a single moment of extended strategy beyond that.

Again, I actually like it. But if I were to banish an enemy(as my warlock) it would only slow down the pacing. Stuff gets killed way faster than you would ever have need for that sort of play. Too many times when I humorously try it on what -used- to be a hard trash pull, the party is sitting there waiting for the banish to end after dispatching the rest.

Again, I am just talking normal 1-60 5-mans, and am comparing to my last major time spent with WoW during year 1 of release. Have no clue about 85 heroics yet.

 

[borghe]

Oh man I disagree. Everything has been nerfed. Granted I have only touched the 1-60 five-man dungeons. But they are a joke now. I'm sure it might have been that way for years over patch changes, but back in 'year 1' of WoW they were multi-hour affairs where every trash group was something to fear and commanded communication.

Now the tank just pulls everything and everyone goes nuts for 30 minutes until entire runs are over, no need for skillful CC. I kinda prefer it this way, I like doing 3-4 runs in the time it used to take 1; but it does really dampen the satisfaction of a proper clear.

sorry.. should have clarified.. yes, some 1-60 dungeons have been made a little easier. though only part of that is actually game changes. also remember that the primary strategies for these dungeons are 6 years old. not to mention the sheer number of blues at lower levels are insane. many people leveling are currently doing so either with twink blues or heirlooms, and even if you're naked (like I am with all of my alts) thanks to dungeon finder you're almost always in level appropriate blues anyway.

but get to the BC and WotLK dungeons and things at least get a little harder than current 1-60... and get to Cat dungeons and things are at least very close to where they were back then.. even if you don't have the length of dungeons that you used to have... but honestly, pugging with a group for 2 hours on UBRS or LBRS was not very fun, and more times often frustrating instead to waste two hours because you can't coordinate on Drak at the end.

I haven't seen a single shackle(does it even exist anymore?), banish, or other such skill use having ran every 5 man dungeon(1-60 content) multiple times in the past week. People may do it cool, but it's never necessary. Tank pulls everything and everyone else kills, while healer heals. Not a single moment of extended strategy beyond that.

You need to get to 85 heroics. I can tell you from other guildies that CC in places like Heroic HoO is a must. Heck, we've even been CC'ing in HoO standard just to deal with 2-3 guys with 300-600K instead of 3-5 guys with 300-600K. and those are trash pulls.

 

[Zerokku]

What? Being able to CC correctly and not break it like a dumbass was just a standard...

Of course, but chain trapping still surprised people. It wasnt hard, but hey I guess people were used to shitty hunters.

To be fair I did see my fair share of hunters who did not place a trap way before the pull so that they could place another immediately after the mob was frozen. So theyd sit there and have to kite the mob for 10 seconds so they could CC it again.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

By the way, I didn't even know what "defense" was on my warrior tank until I was well into level 60 and preparing for Molten Core. And as I talk to people about this, I find everyone was similarly dumb about something crucial to their class until 60.

So really, the game isn't that much easier now. We were really all just that bad. (Or, if you were really smart and good from the start, you had to group with total idiots.)

 

[Lain]

I'm of the idea that vanilla WoW was great for the time it was released, but I wouldn't want that again.
I hated running up and down the Barrens simply because the devs thought it would be cool to make you go between point A and B multiple times; the new setup is so much better, stuff like the NPCs "following" you, automatic quests etc are really awesome.
Also I find the quicker pacing to be better, because you can spend time more freely, dicking around and exploring the zones, reading the various NPC dialong boxes, the books etc without feeling like you're wasting time that would be better spent leveling.

 

[Brandon F]

sorry.. should have clarified.. yes, some 1-60 dungeons have been made a little easier. though only part of that is actually game changes. also remember that the primary strategies for these dungeons are 6 years old. not to mention the sheer number of blues at lower levels are insane. many people leveling are currently doing so either with twink blues or heirlooms, and even if you're naked (like I am with all of my alts) thanks to dungeon finder you're almost always in level appropriate blues anyway.

but get to the BC and WotLK dungeons and things at least get a little harder than current 1-60... and get to Cat dungeons and things are at least very close to where they were back then.. even if you don't have the length of dungeons that you used to have... but honestly, pugging with a group for 2 hours on UBRS or LBRS was not very fun, and more times often frustrating instead to waste two hours because you can't coordinate on Drak at the end.

Oh totally, and it's my expectation that difficulty changes with the endgame content. I did the whole of Blackrock Depths last night, which used to be a 10-man 4-6 hour chore IIRC way back. Really interesting and exciting to run a quickie 30-minute tour of a place that used to drive me mad.

 

[Flib]

I haven't seen a single shackle(does it even exist anymore?), banish, or other such skill use having ran every 5 man dungeon(1-60 content) multiple times in the past week. People may do it cool, but it's never necessary. Tank pulls everything and everyone else kills, while healer heals. Not a single moment of extended strategy beyond that.

Again, I actually like it. But if I were to banish an enemy(as my warlock) it would only slow down the pacing. Stuff gets killed way faster than you would ever have need for that sort of play. Too many times when I humorously try it on what -used- to be a hard trash pull, the party is sitting there waiting for the banish to end after dispatching the rest.

Again, I am just talking normal 1-60 5-mans, and am comparing to my last major time spent with WoW during year 1 of release. Have no clue about 85 heroics yet.

85 heroics are tough but doable, and require CC and a lot of coordination. All the other dungeons in the game are a joke compared to them, they're more akin to mini-raids.

 

[Ferrio]

By the way, I didn't even know what "defense" was on my warrior tank until I was well into level 60 and preparing for Molten Core. And as I talk to people about this, I find everyone was similarly dumb about something crucial to their class until 60.

So really, the game isn't that much easier now. We were really all just that bad. (Or, if you were really smart and good from the start, you had to group with total idiots.)

I never used slice 'n dice or feint until we started hitting MC hard. Ya we were all pretty stupid back then. The game didn't help much either since it didn't explain much. Lots of stuff was learnt the hard way.

Seriously Vanilla can screw itself due to the collecting elemental resistance gear crap.

On a side note, I really hate hunters with core hound pets. When I hear that growl I get flashbacks of MC.

 

[cuevas. PhD.]

sorry.. should have clarified.. yes, some 1-60 dungeons have been made a little easier. though only part of that is actually game changes. also remember that the primary strategies for these dungeons are 6 years old. not to mention the sheer number of blues at lower levels are insane. many people leveling are currently doing so either with twink blues or heirlooms, and even if you're naked (like I am with all of my alts) thanks to dungeon finder you're almost always in level appropriate blues anyway.

but get to the BC and WotLK dungeons and things at least get a little harder than current 1-60... and get to Cat dungeons and things are at least very close to where they were back then.. even if you don't have the length of dungeons that you used to have... but honestly, pugging with a group for 2 hours on UBRS or LBRS was not very fun, and more times often frustrating instead to waste two hours because you can't coordinate on Drak at the end.

Isn't it just easier to level from questing? Doing pre-70 dungeons while leveling since BC has seemed like a waste.

 

[Yaweee]

Isn't it just easier to level from questing? Doing pre-70 dungeons while leveling since BC has seemed like a waste.

No. I got a level and a half around level 40 doing in 35~45 minutes doing Scholo.

 

[ultron87]

So does every Throne of Tides run have that awkward moment where you're standing on the elevator doing nothing in silence and then someone finally says "?" or "what are we doing?"

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Isn't it just easier to level from questing? Doing pre-70 dungeons while leveling since BC has seemed like a waste.

No way, I've leveled exclusively with dungeons on alts since the Dungeon Finder came out. It's either just as fast or faster.

I don't know how it is now with Cataclysm changing everything, though.

 

[Lain]

I never used slice 'n dice or feint until we started hitting MC hard. Ya we were all pretty stupid back then. The game didn't help much either since it didn't explain much. Lots of stuff was learnt the hard way.

Seriously Vanilla can screw itself due to the collecting elemental resistance gear crap.

On a side note, I really hate hunters with core hound pets. When I hear that growl I get flashbacks of MC.

That reminds me of a Hyjal quest I did today, that asked me to crush some elemental orbs, with the quest-giver telling me how, in the past, those orbs were required to create some crappy resist gear. I chuckled.

 

[flyinpiranha]

So does every Throne of Tides run have that awkward moment where you're standing on the elevator doing nothing in silence and then someone finally says "?" or "what are we doing?"

:lol So far, yes. But I've only ran it a couple times myself.

 

[VGChampion]

I miss Vanilla WoW but there's no way I could play it today. The only thing I want back is old style PvP. Give me some gnome feet to collect in Alterac Valley, no time limits in Warsong, etc...

And I wouldn't mind some treasure chests.

 

[Twig]

Of course, but chain trapping still surprised people. It wasnt hard, but hey I guess people were used to shitty hunters.

During TBC, people would frequently praise me like "Man, you're an AWESOME hunter" just because I would do things like that.

But it wasn't so much me being awesome as most hunters being... well, there's a reason they're sometimes called huntards.

Oh hey, it's old WOW nostalgia glasses wearing time again.

Old WOW fucking sucked. Play 60-70 in Outland and try to keep a straight face while still telling everyone you want old WOW questing back.

Remember old Azshara? Attunement for raids? Getting stuck with 10 quests left that were all telling you to kill elites all over the world map but no one was around to form a group to do it?

No, Outlands is fine. Old WoW was balls-ass ugly, but Outlands is fine. Can't believe how many spoiled babies there are in this thread.

Wait, yes I can.

The problem with new WoW is there's no exploration. That's not "nostalgia", that's fact. You're always being told EXACTLY where to go, which is a shame when the world looks so damn good now. In the past I'd be running for hours across a desert, oh and there's a sand dune, oh and there's pile of bleached bones... These days it's a lot more interesting to look at, but you're never given any incentive to just explore.

The new way of doing things is better in some most ways, but worse in others.

It's that whole "linear vs. open-ended" argument again, and you having one preference doesn't make that preference objectively superior.

 

[Aeris130]

After 3 hours of half the fucking server camping in Crucible of Carnage and blocking the questgiver with mounts, running all bosses at least 7 times in an epic gank-fest of hordevsAllys, I finally have my lv333 weapon.

Phaze that zone based on groups, blizzard.

 

[Yaweee]

That reminds me of a Hyjal quest I did today, that asked me to crush some elemental orbs, with the quest-giver telling me how, in the past, those orbs were required to create some crappy resist gear. I chuckled.

A quest NPC Shaman in Twilight Highlands complains "I have no idea why cleanse totems were nerfed. Nobody was ever in range anyway".