Support NeoGAF

[GDJustin]

The fight hardens if there's not a poison remover in your group.

Yeah, this is a good point. I don't remember the exact details, but I DID experience one failpug, to go back on what I said earlier. Heroics are tuned tightly enough that group make-up can get you in trouble, sometimes. So it was less of a failpug and more of a "tough luck" pug.

We had NO class that could dispell magic, and this got us in trouble in one heroic bossfight. I don't remember the fight, but we eventually had to call the run, because we couldn't nullify the effect or DPS/heal through it enough.

I would still hate to see heroics made any easier, though. Like I said several days ago, the issue with heroic tuning is that every day you play, heroics will be easier than the day before. Each new piece of gear makes a heroic a little easier, and a little easier. The expac is brand new. Soon enough everyone will out gear heroics. So I really disagree with anyone saying blizz needs to ease up.

 

[etiolate]

borghe:

You can have active debuffing/cc if you have a more active game design. Guild Wars doesn't have direct lockout CC, but multiple debuffs to keep casting that limit incoming damage while doing damage, or at least engaging the player.

The problem with direct lockout CC is its not really fun from a playing perspective. Maybe aoe-everything was easy, but mark up and CC adds no challenge honestly and diminishes enjoyment. It is a false sense of making things harder. All the design is doing is adding a tough mob, but letting you remove that mob from play. So what is the point?

Also, realize that as people gear up that they will be able to return to aoe-everything the same they did in BC due to speed of dps.

 

[Ferrio]

The problem with direct lockout CC is its not really fun from a playing perspective. Maybe aoe-everything was easy, but mark up and CC adds no challenge honestly and diminishes enjoyment. It is a false sense of making things harder. All the design is doing is adding a tough mob, but letting you remove that mob from play. So what is the point?

No challenge? Sure it's not rocket science to a lot of us, but to some it's a skill they don't have or use. Knowing what/where you should cc mobs is sometimes crucial. It certainly quickly weeds out who knows their shit and who doesn't, something that you never saw in Lich.

 

[KibblesBits]

I got my hat from regular Stonecore.

Yeah, I don't think my twink (lvl 70)will get a hat this year. Too bad because I'm so close to that title.

 

[Zertez]

Why does Blizzard always screw over people trying to get Winter Hats? Seems like it's only gonna drop in heroics this year...

I got my hat out of a daily quest box. Dont remember which quest it was, but it was the red winter hat. Guess I got lucky, because I havent ran one dungeon yet.

 

[KibblesBits]

I got my hat out of a daily quest box. Dont remember which quest it was, but it was the red winter hat. Guess I got lucky, because I havent ran one dungeon yet.

Please try to remember, because I'm going to farm SFK on normal soon and I dread it.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

I do not like that gear score mentality is reinforced by the game system. Despite the re-implication of CCing, the gear score qualifiers neglect any real question of skill involved. CCing is not an active thing within the game, just a slow down in mob to mob procession.

Gear score became the scourge it was as it was the extent of a number of players understanding of overcoming difficulties (ie, "throw iLevel at it"). Add in the rapidly decreasing ways to socially punish sociopaths, elitists, ninjas, and screwups along with heavily available gear and different tunings, and well, This One Number is what alot go by. Elitism will find a way. ALWAYS.

 

[Twig]

borghe:

You can have active debuffing/cc if you have a more active game design. Guild Wars doesn't have direct lockout CC, but multiple debuffs to keep casting that limit incoming damage while doing damage, or at least engaging the player.

The problem with direct lockout CC is its not really fun from a playing perspective. Maybe aoe-everything was easy, but mark up and CC adds no challenge honestly and diminishes enjoyment. It is a false sense of making things harder. All the design is doing is adding a tough mob, but letting you remove that mob from play. So what is the point?

Also, realize that as people gear up that they will be able to return to aoe-everything the same they did in BC due to speed of dps.

I vastly, vastly prefer having to CC than just having to spam AoE all over the fuckin' place like whoa.

It requires actual coordination and people who aren't stupid. I love it.

DISCLAIMER: This is coming from someone who only very casually raids and also significantly prefers PvP.

 

[borghe]

The problem is that you refer to CC in this context like it's just a slider that removes difficulty/enemies. However you fail to include that the CC is still the responsibility of one or more players who have many other responsibilities besides CC, and that the CC itself, whe a direct lockout, does so because otherwise the pull would be lost. But it's really that first part that needs to be addressed. In most cases it's not a switch to flip. It's about applying the CC, keeping the pull away from the CC for aoe, reapplying the CC, all on top of classes that are already primary damage dealers or threat generators.

I'm just saying that while the overall effect isn't really different from what you are saying at an overly simplified level, the application of it is hardly that trivial often times and that is where the challenge comes from.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

I'm seriously considering playing this for the first time. Somebody talk me into it / out of it.

 

[etiolate]

The problem is that you refer to CC in this context like it's just a slider that removes difficulty/enemies. However you fail to include that the CC is still the responsibility of one or more players who have many other responsibilities besides CC, and that the CC itself, whe a direct lockout, does so because otherwise the pull would be lost. But it's really that first part that needs to be addressed. In most cases it's not a switch to flip. It's about applying the CC, keeping the pull away from the CC for aoe, reapplying the CC, all on top of classes that are already primary damage dealers or threat generators.

I'm just saying that while the overall effect isn't really different from what you are saying at an overly simplified level, the application of it is hardly that trivial often times and that is where the challenge comes from.

You CC pull and the tank grabs the mobs off you, or you threat pull your CC target away and CC. Since some CCs like Fear and Hex can take a little damage before breaking, you can often just have tank pull the non-CC away. You go back to dps.

Really CC is more tank work than before. You have to remember all the targets to CC, which kill order and pulling threat off if you have someone CC pull.

Overall, not much more than taking a difficult mob and removing the mob. It would be more interesting to have to deal with a mob in an active sort of way. I am not saying that aoe was more fun, but it was less tedious and in that matter was a step forward. They were addressing a problem(tediousness of CC) and had a cheap easy answer. People complained it was too easy, so instead of doing something progressive they just go back to the old model, and that model will eventually be replaced with AOE once gear goes up.

I also think that straight lockout CCs are a game design crutch. It's there to deal with having too many mobs by removing a mob, but it far more fun to be able to take on more mobs in an active matter. Nevermind that pve CCs have constantly plagued PVP balance in the game from their very pve design.

To give a counter example, I was just in the prison area of Tol Barad doing the quests. There are a lot of mobs in there and my gear isn't good enough to just pull a bunch and instant nuke them. However, one mob by one mob is god damned boring. So I went through, dealt with multiple mobs by earthbind snaring them into totem aoe, tstorming them off me, interrupting spells and healing/damaging alternately. This is far more active and entertaining than a dps/cc cycle.

 

[Zertez]

Please try to remember, because I'm going to farm SFK on normal soon and I dread it.

I really want to say it was out of the fishing daily quest bag in org. I have done so many daily quest recently, it is tough to recall exactly which one.

 

[Shrennin]

Are the servers slow for anyone else? The WoW site doesn't say that they are down, but I can't log in to any particular server (it will stay at the "logging in" screen).

 

[hamchan]

I'm seriously considering playing this for the first time. Somebody talk me into it / out of it.

Even if you end up hating it, it's good to experience WoW at least once. It's one of the biggest games of the past decade after all.

Also vanilla should be super cheap to buy now that comes with a months playtime, so if you end up not liking it you won't lose much. If you end up liking it you will have a hell of a time. So trying WoW is a low risk with high reward.

There's also a 10 day trial if you don't want to spend any money at all.

 

[Alex]

CC is such a minor staple of the game even now, I can't see what the heck would possess you to form this large of an argument about it. Is it really that important? Trash pulls in a heroic?

Personally, having a good CC setup and flow can very much be a nice skill check, but it's still just heroic trash. You could also design ways around having that same skill check through AOE spam, vehicles, whatever, it's just semantics, really. It's what people liked and wanted so they threw it back in there.

What's important is the actual boss and encounter design, which are just absurdly good so far. Some of the best in the medium, crazy inventive and full of great action mechanics. It really seems like a big step up from even Ulduar. I really hope it keeps going along this line of quality. I wasn't around for the giant drop off during WOTLK and I hope I don't have to see one here.

 

[Twig]

I'm seriously considering playing this for the first time. Somebody talk me into it / out of it.

Don't do it.

It's a trap!

 

[Conceited]

Legendary (The WoW show) is starting now

http://www.justin.tv/gamebreakertv

Be sure to stick around until the after-party if you want to be a part of their next viral video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2AkvPDBT_E

 

[iamblades]

CC being good or bad depends entirely on encounter design.

I love having to use CC in boss fights. As someone who played a mage primarily through BC, Majordomo Executus is still one of the most memorable boss fights in the game for me.

Though what most people seem to mean when talking about having to use CC is just having one more mob in each pack of trash than you can tank, which is lazy design that just slows the pace of the game down. Trash is bullshit to begin with, most of it isn't fun and is just pointless filler content to lengthen the dungeon.

If you are going to have non boss challenges in dungeons, at least use more ingenuity than '+1 on all the mob packs so people have to use CC'. Do something like the suppression room or the bug tunnel or wave based fights that give you limited setup time or fights that require careful movement, make mobs that drop bombs or poison clouds or something.

Just saying 'here's 5 mobs, sheep one, then kill the rest' is not challenging and not fun. It just slows the pace at which you can proceed. That may be a valid reason to put it in from time to time, but it's hardly a valid reason to require it on every pull like some of the vanilla and BC dungeons and raids did.

 

[etiolate]

CC is such a minor staple of the game even now, I can't see what the heck would possess you to form this large of an argument about it. Is it really that important? Trash pulls in a heroic?

Personally, having a good CC setup and flow can very much be a nice skill check, but it's still just heroic trash. You could also design ways around having that same skill check through AOE spam, vehicles, whatever, it's just semantics, really. It's what people liked and wanted so they threw it back in there.

What's important is the actual boss and encounter design, which are just absurdly good so far. Some of the best in the medium, crazy inventive and full of great action mechanics. It really seems like a big step up from even Ulduar. I really hope it keeps going along this line of quality. I wasn't around for the giant drop off during WOTLK and I hope I don't have to see one here.

Who are these people? I did not want it. I cannot imagine any sane person wanting it. I can only imagine the slothish archaic design lovers wanting it.

As for boss encounters, I'll wait until I've seen raid bosses. Only one boss encounter so far has been interesting in the five mans. For awhile now the bosses have just been a remix of the same old song and dance.

And I what I write isn't that large of a response. In the real world people explain their points when people respond to them.

 

[Belfast]

Legendary (The WoW show) is starting now

http://www.justin.tv/gamebreakertv

Be sure to stick around until the after-party if you want to be a part of their next viral video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2AkvPDBT_E

Seriously cannot stand the dudes on this show.

 

[Twig]

I cannot imagine any sane person wanting it.

That is probably because either you have no imagination or you are insane.

Empathy and understanding are not difficult concepts to grasp, but so many people seem unable or unwilling to even try!

SPAM AOE is not good design. It is simple, undemanding, by-the-numbers - where numbers equal stats - design.

 

[Sai-kun]

Who are these people? I did not want it. I cannot imagine any sane person wanting it. I can only imagine the slothish archaic design lovers wanting it.

As for boss encounters, I'll wait until I've seen raid bosses. Only one boss encounter so far has been interesting in the five mans. For awhile now the bosses have just been a remix of the same old song and dance.

And I what I write isn't that large of a response. In the real world people explain their points when people respond to them.

As a Hunter, CC coming back is the GREATEST THING EVER

There are fewer joys in life than being a group with a mage or other hunter, and perfectly doing CC pulls. CC makes this game infinitely more satisfying.

 

[dimb]

As a Hunter, CC coming back is the GREATEST THING EVER

There are fewer joys in life than being a group with a mage or other hunter, and perfectly doing CC pulls. CC makes this game infinitely more satisfying.

Now if only Blizzard would give it to every DPS spec.

 

[Twig]

Now if only Blizzard would give it to every DPS spec.

Or, better yet, reduce the DPS of the CC classes.

uh oh i just angered every mage and hunter in existence

Spoiler

i used to be a hunter if that counts

 

[Sai-kun]

Or, better yet, reduce the DPS of the CC classes.

uh oh i just angered every mage and hunter in existence

Spoiler

i used to be a hunter if that counts

what the

f u

 

[Twig]

what the

f u

Seriously, I think it's better that "class balance" mean different classes have different roles rather than it mean that all classes can do the same things with different names. Shrug.

 

[AdventureRacing]

I'm seriously considering playing this for the first time. Somebody talk me into it / out of it.

I consider WoW to be the close to if not the best game ever made.

However i have always had good real life friends who play with me which is where much of my fun comes from.

I think if you don't have any friends who play WoW then this could hamper your enjoyment somewhat.

A lot of the low level areas are empty even after the revamped zones so this can make it difficult to find people to play with.

If you're worried about that whole thing about being addicted you really don't have to. You seem like a sensible person and if you have any sort of restraint this won't be an issue (it hasn't been for me).

I would just give it a try, especially since you can get a free trial. Low level questing has been revamped and is much better than it used to be.

If you were to end up on Saurfang (oceanic pve server) i would be happy to help you out.

Edit:

CC being good or bad depends entirely on encounter design.

I love having to use CC in boss fights. As someone who played a mage primarily through BC, Majordomo Executus is still one of the most memorable boss fights in the game for me.

Though what most people seem to mean when talking about having to use CC is just having one more mob in each pack of trash than you can tank, which is lazy design that just slows the pace of the game down. Trash is bullshit to begin with, most of it isn't fun and is just pointless filler content to lengthen the dungeon.

If you are going to have non boss challenges in dungeons, at least use more ingenuity than '+1 on all the mob packs so people have to use CC'. Do something like the suppression room or the bug tunnel or wave based fights that give you limited setup time or fights that require careful movement, make mobs that drop bombs or poison clouds or something.

Just saying 'here's 5 mobs, sheep one, then kill the rest' is not challenging and not fun. It just slows the pace at which you can proceed. That may be a valid reason to put it in from time to time, but it's hardly a valid reason to require it on every pull like some of the vanilla and BC dungeons and raids did.

Great post and i agree.

 

[Macattk15]

I'm up to 12-14k single target DPS now. As is most of the DPS (guildies) I do Heroics with. So they are now becoming laughably easy. Few more pieces of loot (thanks RNG gods, how many times must I run HoO) and I'm BiS pre-raiding.

I've completed Ripsnarl in several pugs. Last PUG I managed to do almost 1 million damage to vapors through the course of the fight while the next was the tank around 347k. No one notices these things but me sadly. The 2 PUG DPS sat there fat dumb and happy though when the boss died.

Time to start raiding soon. WTB Tol Barad control.

 

[Yaweee]

I'm up to 12-14k single target DPS now. As is most of the DPS (guildies) I do Heroics with. So they are now becoming laughably easy. Few more pieces of loot (thanks RNG gods, how many times must I run HoO) and I'm BiS pre-raiding.

I've completed Ripsnarl in several pugs. Last PUG I managed to do almost 1 million damage to vapors through the course of the fight while the next was the tank around 347k. No one notices these things but me sadly. The 2 PUG DPS sat there fat dumb and happy though when the boss died.

Time to start raiding soon. WTB Tol Barad control.

Tol Barad's raid is easier than Heroics, by my understanding. Or at least nothing that is anywhere near on par with the real raids.

 

[webrunner]

Seriously, I think it's better that "class balance" mean different classes have different roles rather than it mean that all classes can do the same things with different names. Shrug.

The problem with that road is that if every class does individual things 'better' or 'worse' then you're going to start getting people kicked from groups because a particular instance needs something that particular DPS can't provide.

Standardizing the roles is important to ensuring every player can actually play instead of being kicked to the curb just for their class choice.

 

[TheExodu5]

The problem with that road is that if every class does individual things 'better' or 'worse' then you're going to start getting people kicked from groups because a particular instance needs something that particular DPS can't provide.

Standardizing the roles is important to ensuring every player can actually play instead of being kicked to the curb just for their class choice.

This is actually a problem in stonecore, as it's mandatory to have someone who can do ranged AOE DPS to take out the crystal shards.

 

[dave is ok]

Tol Barad's raid is easier than Heroics, by my understanding. Or at least nothing that is anywhere near on par with the real raids.

No way. It's easy but it still has a five minute timelimit

 

[cubicle47b]

Oh hey, Etoilet doesn't like WoW. This is new and interesting material.

 

[Macattk15]

Tol Barad's raid is easier than Heroics, by my understanding. Or at least nothing that is anywhere near on par with the real raids.

I'm sure it is, but we haven't had Tol Barad for weeks because its design is utterly stupid. I said that place because it's basically free T11.

This is actually a problem in stonecore, as it's mandatory to have someone who can do ranged AOE DPS to take out the crystal shards.

The Ret pally I run with and I (Fury Warrior) just run into them as soon as they pop up before they target anyone ... he Divine Storms ... I Cleave and Whirlwind. Most, if not all, are dead at this point.

 

[TheExodu5]

I'm sure it is, but we haven't had Tol Barad for weeks because its design is utterly stupid. I said that place because it's basically free T11.



The Ret pally I run with and I (Fury Warrior) just run into them as soon as they pop up before they target anyone ... he Divine Storms ... I Cleave and Whirlwind. Most, if not all, are dead at this point.

Don't they each aoe for like 20k damage when they die?

 

[borghe]

I am going to just happily agree to disagree with you etiolate on all but one point. I don't know if you are or have played a CC class, and are or have played an AOE class, but having played the primary class of both of these mechanics (and all three specs considerably as a mage.. starting off as Frost, then moving to Arcane in LK once my gear permitted, and now doing Fire for AOE), I have to disagree STRONGLY with your assertion that AOE is more interesting to play than CC. AOE is literally spamming a key (or few keys). literally. you stand there, spam your keys, keep standing there, keep spamming your keys. There is very little mobility because most of your old AOEs as a mage required channeling.

With CC I am actually having fun in fights. sheep the one mob, frostbolt/nova kite another mob on adds/pats, keep DPS up and pass living bomb around, get a wonderful impact combustion off when available. etc. significantly more fun than just spamming AOEs while the tank holds aggro.

 

[Macattk15]

Don't they each aoe for like 20k damage when they die?

They float up from the ground for a certain amount of time before they will blow up. They actively target someone and float at them ... when it gets to them, it blows up. While they are floating up from the ground, as soon as you can see them ... they are able to be targeted.

They just simply die when they die.



PROTIP : You can also jump to avoid the Quake damage of the big stone giants in Stonecore right as the stomp goes off.

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

I am going to just happily agree to disagree with you etiolate on all but one point. I don't know if you are or have played a CC class, and are or have played an AOE class, but having played the primary class of both of these mechanics (and all three specs considerably as a mage.. starting off as Frost, then moving to Arcane in LK once my gear permitted, and now doing Fire for AOE), I have to disagree STRONGLY with your assertion that AOE is more interesting to play than CC. AOE is literally spamming a key (or few keys). literally. you stand there, spam your keys, keep standing there, keep spamming your keys. There is very little mobility because most of your old AOEs as a mage required channeling.

With CC I am actually having fun in fights. sheep the one mob, frostbolt/nova kite another mob on adds/pats, keep DPS up and pass living bomb around, get a wonderful impact combustion off when available. etc. significantly more fun than just spamming AOEs while the tank holds aggro.

I think arcane is probably the best CC class right now. Sheep, Slow, Nova, and Ring of Frost. I can basically CC three different adds alone.

 

[webrunner]

Does anyone know if it's possible for a Worgen Hunter to tame a Blackwald Fox before leaving Gilneas? There doesn't seem to be a Stable Master anywhere to stow the Mastiff.

 

[Flib]

Does anyone know if it's possible for a Worgen Hunter to tame a Blackwald Fox before leaving Gilneas? There doesn't seem to be a Stable Master anywhere to stow the Mastiff.

Not sure, but you can always come back and tame one after the starting area is over.

 

[webrunner]

Not sure, but you can always come back and tame one after the starting area is over.

Aren't the only foxes in Gilneas afterwards the Highland Fox? It's got a grey skin and is level 13, but the foxes in Gilneas are 6-9 and use the red/white skin.

 

[Bisnic]

I think arcane is probably the best CC class right now. Sheep, Slow, Nova, and Ring of Frost. I can basically CC three different adds alone.

I prefer Frost personally for CC/kiting.

Faster Frostbolts, instant FrostFire Bolt when i get Brain Freeze proc, 2 Frost novas, Deep Freeze stun, Sheep, Ring of Frost and the best spec for Cone of Cold. Not to mention we have Frostfire Orb which have chill effect & proc Fingers of Frost & Brain Freeze a lot.

And frost is really powerful now for instances, i love it! I can do 13-14k DPS on some 5 man bosses with mostly 333 blues.

 

[Sai-kun]

Does anyone know if it's possible for a Worgen Hunter to tame a Blackwald Fox before leaving Gilneas? There doesn't seem to be a Stable Master anywhere to stow the Mastiff.

http://www.wow-petopia.com/look/mistfoxskinred.html

 

[Flib]

I think you have to get rid of your mastiff to get the blackwald and such. You can always get another mastiff.

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

I prefer Frost personally for CC/kiting.

Faster Frostbolts, instant FrostFire Bolt when i get Brain Freeze proc, 2 Frost novas, Deep Freeze stun, Sheep, Ring of Frost and the best spec for Cone of Cold. Not to mention we have Frostfire Orb which have chill effect & proc Fingers of Frost & Brain Freeze a lot.

Yeah, but slow is an instant cast, snares just as much as a fully talented chill effect (if not more. I can't remember if frostbolt is only 50% slow, or if it's 60% slow), and lasts longer than chilled effects, then you get the bonus to counterspell and sheep with arcane talents. Plus you get tons of mobile damage with arcane barrage. Plus the spec is still good for PvE, which... you can't say so much for Frost. Drawback with slow is it only applies to one target.

Edit: Did they make Frost viable for PvE? I thought it was still way under Arcane and Fire.

 

[Raide]

Yeah, but slow is an instant cast, snares just as much as a fully talented chill effect (if not more. I can't remember if frostbolt is only 50% slow, or if it's 60% slow), and lasts longer than chilled effects, then you get the bonus to counterspell and sheep with arcane talents. Plus you get tons of mobile damage with arcane barrage. Plus the spec is still good for PvE, which... you can't say so much for Frost. Drawback with slow is it only applies to one target.

Edit: Did they make Frost viable for PvE? I thought it was still way under Arcane and Fire.

More than viable for Cata. Hate Fire because its so mana dependant and everyone and their mage dog goes Arcane. Don't have any mana issues, pet is there to help with extra nova's, plus you can survive if things get too close. Damage goes a bit mental when you kick Icy Veins and Time Stop in.

Frostbolt with slow, plus the Frostfire bolts and also the Flame Orb when talented also adds a slowing effect.

 

[Bisnic]

Yeah, but slow is an instant cast, snares just as much as a fully talented chill effect (if not more. I can't remember if frostbolt is only 50% slow, or if it's 60% slow), and lasts longer than chilled effects, then you get the bonus to counterspell and sheep with arcane talents. Plus you get tons of mobile damage with arcane barrage. Plus the spec is still good for PvE, which... you can't say so much for Frost. Drawback with slow is it only applies to one target.

Edit: Did they make Frost viable for PvE? I thought it was still way under Arcane and Fire.

Frost is much better than it was in LK. As i said, i can do 13-14k DPS on some 5 mans boss with mostly 333 blues. And Frost also get tons of mobile damage. Fingers of Frost procs A LOT. Brain Freeze is a free instant cast for Frostfire. And with the Ignite talent that frost mages can get, it's nice! And when Fingers of Frost happens, Ice Lance does a lot of damage, and have a high chance to crit. IF i get both Brain Freeze and Finger of Frost procs, Frostfire is almost guaranteed to crit and proc Ignite. I've seen my own Deep Freeze crit on bosses for around 68k.

I love it, and its much more fun than what Arcane was last time i played it in Lich King. I didn't went back.

Damage goes a bit mental when you kick Icy Veins and Time Stop in.

Haha yeah, Icy Veins + Lifeblood(herbalist haste buff) + Mirror Images + Time Warp + Frostfire Orb for tons of Fingers of Frost/Brain Freeze procs. Then add to this the procs from my trinkets = Helloooo 20k DPS at the beginning of a boss fight and you're not even pulling aggro. :lol

 

[borghe]

Yeah, but slow is an instant cast, snares just as much as a fully talented chill effect (if not more. I can't remember if frostbolt is only 50% slow, or if it's 60% slow), and lasts longer than chilled effects, then you get the bonus to counterspell and sheep with arcane talents. Plus you get tons of mobile damage with arcane barrage. Plus the spec is still good for PvE, which... you can't say so much for Frost. Drawback with slow is it only applies to one target.

Edit: Did they make Frost viable for PvE? I thought it was still way under Arcane and Fire.

you are correct. because of slow, arcane is the best for CC. I'm also finding that for CC the polymorph glyph is invaluable for "oops... didn't mean to dot that sheep". Fortunately it's all been guild runs mostly, but shit happens, and once that dot is on there it's really hard to get that mob sheeped again. mostly during bosses where it's a problem.

with that being said, ALL you have over me for CC is slow.. it's enough to make you the better build, but I am still very effective.

And frost is viable for PvE..... actually according to EJ, arcane after taking almost an entire expansion as the undisputed DPS king is currently low man on DPS. Same single target DPS, great burst DPS and survivability, but horribly low multi-target and mobility DPS.. absolutely awful. fire is same single target, and amazing multi-target (thanks to impact combustion) and mobility (thanks to free scorches while moving and instant Pyroblasts!). so so on burst and low man on survivability. frost sits in between.. basically same as Arcane, just considerably better than arcane at multi-target and mobility.

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

More than viable for Cata. Hate Fire because its so mana dependant and everyone and their mage dog goes Arcane. Don't have any mana issues, pet is there to help with extra nova's, plus you can survive if things get too close. Damage goes a bit mental when you kick Icy Veins and Time Stop in.

Frostbolt with slow, plus the Frostfire bolts and also the Flame Orb when talented also adds a slowing effect.

If you think Fire is mana dependant, try arcane :lol

I can blow through my entire mana bar in about 20 seconds when I'm in burn phase. Right now I'm arcane spec with fire as off spec. Considering the entire Mastery relies on your mana, that's a bad combination. It's mostly because I'm not properly geared yet though. I'm only at like iLevel 223 thus far. Not even ready for heroics.

Edit:

Yeah, arcane is probably the low man on the mobility dps front, definitely, but when you're in burn phase you do so much damage in that 20 second window that it's just ridiculous. And there's very rarely a boss where you don't have a 20 second window every two minutes to burn them. I think Blizzard did a pretty damn good job making every spec viable for both PvE and PvP with mages in this expo. They each have their specializations still, and will each benefit for certain types of bosses. I think it's probably a bit early to say whether or not one spec will be the low man or not when we really haven't seen anything with real gear in raids at this point. With enough mana regen, if an arcane mage could keep AB at four stacks for even half of a fight it seems like there's a possibility for it to really clean up. But there are scenarios like that for every spec.

 

[borghe]

More than viable for Cata. Hate Fire because its so mana dependant and everyone and their mage dog goes Arcane. Don't have any mana issues, pet is there to help with extra nova's, plus you can survive if things get too close. Damage goes a bit mental when you kick Icy Veins and Time Stop in.

Frostbolt with slow, plus the Frostfire bolts and also the Flame Orb when talented also adds a slowing effect.

fire is easy. between mana gems, pots and evocation, mana is rarely an issue. Not to mention you only really care about mana until the burn phase which is easy to keep under control thanks to free scorches and pyroblasts!. As long as you have enough mana to last the burn phase (35% boss health or final phase of boss, whichever is shorter) you are fine.

plus we get crazy mana efficient spells like blast wave, flameball or whatever, and the whole impact combustion setup. not to mention free scorches 100% of the time and with a decent crit rate lots of free pyroblasts!