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World of Warcraft |OT2|
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cuevas. PhD.
Member
etiolate said:
Just saying, just because you thought he was good didn't mean he was. If he didn't use binds he couldn't be that good, sorry.
haha oh god
"he can't be good"
You're just living off of assumptions and what I've learned about gaf is if you challenge gaf's hive assumptions then you're going to cause a riot. Just think about the amount of commands/actions needed in KB vs a healing mod interface. Then think about people who have faster mouse/click response time than key command response time. There is no way for KB to be universally better. It's just an assumption that gets passed around as truth for people to feel like they're in some club.
"he can't be good"
You're just living off of assumptions and what I've learned about gaf is if you challenge gaf's hive assumptions then you're going to cause a riot. Just think about the amount of commands/actions needed in KB vs a healing mod interface. Then think about people who have faster mouse/click response time than key command response time. There is no way for KB to be universally better. It's just an assumption that gets passed around as truth for people to feel like they're in some club.
cuevas. PhD.
Member
etiolate said:
Yeah, just like those idiots who spread the rumor that running shoes are better than construction boots for marathons.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
You're thinking he's claiming that healer just clicks, but he means his healer just spams healbot, which in reality are just mouse bound keybinds.cuevas said:
etiolate said:
I'm sure you can be perfectly successful in PvE without using keybinds; however, in PVP it would be impossible to achieve 2200+ without using keybinds. If you are clicking in PVP, you are dead. You can't be moving your character/camera with the mouse effectively while concurrently clicking your heals, let alone interrupts or trinkets.
Sorry, but BS. as a healer especially it's absolutely NOT possible to be that good without keybinds (also, tip: IF you mean he's using clique type functionality, those are just mouseover macros bound to mouse buttons, not 'clicking').
You can be good, but your skill ceiling is absolutely nowhere near even a mediocre player, especially as a healer since you need to be moving your mouse over your raid frames, at least as a dps you could theoretically use lots of tab or whatever else to target and just mouse over your keys all the time (It would still be awful).
You can be good, but your skill ceiling is absolutely nowhere near even a mediocre player, especially as a healer since you need to be moving your mouse over your raid frames, at least as a dps you could theoretically use lots of tab or whatever else to target and just mouse over your keys all the time (It would still be awful).
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Again, he's confusing you by using the wrong terminology. He's talking about using mouseclick to heal (i.e. duplicating Clique) functionality of HealBot instead of binding them to KB buttons.
wonderdung
Member
etiolate said:
Yes, I assume that Fitts's Law is correct when it states that it is always faster for a human to press a key on a keyboard than to accurately navigate to a place on a screen with a mouse. (Unless that place is of infinite size or is 0 units of distance away.)
Mouseclick style healing isn't that bad though, since you're already paying the cost of navigation to select a target in the first place. You're actually faster doing move->mouseclick than move->mouseclick (to select) -> keybind.
But this discussion was in the context of pvp where you're doing things that aren't just "stand in one spot and heal".
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
You don't have to select a target to heal with Healbot, it has the same functionality as clique.wonderdung said:
Basically you can move and one click heal/decurse. As a Shaman, I use about 26 spells as Resto. That is retarded for keybinding. Using a heal interface, I can assign all major heals to one-clicks, then use some keybinds for stuff like purge.
KBs aren't one key but key combos that stretch across a sometimes wider space than the monitor space(factor in mouse sensitivity). If you cluster spells together(removing a Hbot interface from the question) you can have access to many actions with good mouse speed. I can tell you that my ability to switch from shift+a to ctrl+alt+f is slower than my ability to move a mouse over a tiny space and click.
KBs aren't one key but key combos that stretch across a sometimes wider space than the monitor space(factor in mouse sensitivity). If you cluster spells together(removing a Hbot interface from the question) you can have access to many actions with good mouse speed. I can tell you that my ability to switch from shift+a to ctrl+alt+f is slower than my ability to move a mouse over a tiny space and click.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I really don't think you understand how much you're confusing everyone. You ARE keybinding your spells; you are just claiming you aren't (even though you are)etiolate said:
devildog820
Member
So I hit 85 last night. Now what the hell do I do?
Alex
Member
You can bitch about GAF hivemind all you like, you're still a keyboard turner. 
Not that this is anywhere near a GAF thing at all, feel free to hit up other communities though, see how they're into keyboard turning and ability clicking. Even Blizzard drops mockery on it
The argument you're making is tantamount to Analog Sticks > Mouse for FPS, basically (arguably worse, clicking is so, so bad!)
Healbot is one thing, though I'd never use healing raid frames in arena myself(though I still have never cared for it, Vuhdo is the way to go nowadays IMO) it's more than fine for BGs however. That aside you can't bind everything to Healbot, guy and as a Shaman you need a fucking metric ton of binds to even be mediocre in PvP. Keybinds are simply faster and far, far more accurate than dragging a mouse across bars and it also doesn't massively impede your movement or take the proper camera out of your hands.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHgj0RDJ9RA
I do wonder if you're just trolling though, this is certainly an argument I haven't seen in years.
It's hard to answer that with no other information, though. What do you want to do and what have you done on the way?
Not that this is anywhere near a GAF thing at all, feel free to hit up other communities though, see how they're into keyboard turning and ability clicking. Even Blizzard drops mockery on itThe argument you're making is tantamount to Analog Sticks > Mouse for FPS, basically (arguably worse, clicking is so, so bad!)
Healbot is one thing, though I'd never use healing raid frames in arena myself(though I still have never cared for it, Vuhdo is the way to go nowadays IMO) it's more than fine for BGs however. That aside you can't bind everything to Healbot, guy and as a Shaman you need a fucking metric ton of binds to even be mediocre in PvP. Keybinds are simply faster and far, far more accurate than dragging a mouse across bars and it also doesn't massively impede your movement or take the proper camera out of your hands.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHgj0RDJ9RA
I do wonder if you're just trolling though, this is certainly an argument I haven't seen in years.
It's hard to answer that with no other information, though. What do you want to do and what have you done on the way?
etiolate said:
And if you're using healbot/clique you are BINDING them to the keys on your mouse. Unless you've got a razer naga or something nutty you're still lacking lots of key buttons, but regardless you are still using keybinds. "clicking" has nothing to do with the act of hitting buttons on your mouse and everything to do with where your mouse pointer is going.
cuevas. PhD.
Member
Wow. No one calls mouseover macros clicking. Clicking is defined as not binding the spell to anything and having to mouse back and forth.etiolate said:
etiolate said:
12345QERTFGX
Shift+12345QERTFGX
Ctrl+12345QERTFGX
Rotation goes on 1-5
Frequently used actions go on QERF
Cooldowns go on Ctrl+12345
The rest I try to organize intuitively. For example, Stealth is Q, Vanish is Shift+Q, and my GTFO macro (Stealth + Vanish + Sprint + Rocket Boots) is Ctrl+Q. My 10 second interrupt is on E, and my stun/silence is on Shift+E, across all characters.
I have plenty of keybinds at my disposal. I could use Z, C, and V as well, but I'd need to rebind C, and I just don't need any more keybinds at this point. In fact, I may do this because ZXCV would be nice to use for shape shifting as Druid.
cuevas. PhD.
Member
Gvaz said:
Vigil is soo pissed.
ToyMachine228
Member
I'm a click healer myself and I consider myself to be a pretty damn good healer. My 10-man guild is currently 2/13H. I've always clicked on every character that I play. For DPS and Healers in PvE, it's never been a problem. For tanking, it can be a little more difficult. As others have mentioned, in PvP as well. You're not going to be as good as you can possibly be clicking in PvP. But I've always clicked, and I do pretty well so I'm not going to worry about changing my ways now. We're seeing success in PvE, and the one thing that holds us back is our Priest. Who uses key binds, but is just bad, it's not the fault of the key binds.
All I came in here to say is, don't dismiss click healers.
Also, I don't use addons. Besides the basic DBM. Don't even use a custom UI.
All I came in here to say is, don't dismiss click healers.
Also, I don't use addons. Besides the basic DBM. Don't even use a custom UI.
TheExodu5 said:
Yes, you have plenty. You have grown yourself accustomed to that system. For others, a hybrid or clicking system works better. If I have a cluster of iconable clicking spells, I can move between them faster or the same speed than I can accomplish the same with KB combos.
There is no proof of KB > all in a universal way. Some are more adept at different ways of doing things.
As for bound mouseclicks being keybinds, I've never really seen that used together in terminology. Like the quoted post, keys are what people talk about with KBing.
Since there is an extra step between name clicking and then hitting KB, I can argue that a healer interface removes a step of the process.
Also, you can turn and cast no matter what setup you're using.
ToyMachine228
Member
TheYanger said:
When we encounter something that we cannot kill, because of the healers, I will admit that you are right. We have not had that problem thus far. We work our way through each new encounter, refining our strat as we go, and we progress.
charlequin
Banned
Angry Grimace said:
Well, I've never heard anyone refer to Clique as "keybinding" because it doesn't involve any keys.
To summarize:
- Using keybinds (keyboard buttons tied to individual abilities, usually tied to mousing over character frames) = good
- Using clickbinds (mouse buttons tied to individual abilities when they click on character frames) = good
- Click targeting (clicking a frame THEN casting the spell) = slow
- Click casting (clicking the button on your screen to cast the spell) = extra slow
- Click targeting AND click casting = omg terrible
Alex said:
Is it? I just started healing again for the first time since Vanilla. I've got Grid set up right now and it seems to work fine (not ugly, shows me cleansable debuffs and reminds me about Earth Shield) but the setup seems a bit janky and I dislike that there's no easy way for me to turn it on and off (since I only want it on when I'm resto.)
ToyMachine228 said:
You mean you click target, right? Click targeting is going to be slower than either mouseover macros or clique-style mouse healing, but if you know what you're doing it's not going to make a huge difference.
cuevas. PhD.
Member
Sebulon3k said:
No but they've tried to poach our people in the past.
Clicking systems do not work better for high-rated PVPers. It's factually slower.
This is also true in PVE to a certain extent. You are losing HPS, DPS and TPS by clicking. The loss won't be as noticeable in PVE, but it's still bad to do.
It's kind of sad this has to be explained, really.
This is also true in PVE to a certain extent. You are losing HPS, DPS and TPS by clicking. The loss won't be as noticeable in PVE, but it's still bad to do.
It's kind of sad this has to be explained, really.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
it's exactly the same thing. You're binding an ability to a button rather than binding it to nothing and just manually targeting and clicking an icon.charlequin said:Well, I've never heard anyone refer to Clique as "keybinding" because it doesn't involve any keys.
To summarize:
- Using keybinds (keyboard buttons tied to individual abilities, usually tied to mousing over character frames) = good
- Using clickbinds (mouse buttons tied to individual abilities when they click on character frames) = good
- Click targeting (clicking a frame THEN casting the spell) = slow
- Click casting (clicking the button on your screen to cast the spell) = extra slow
- Click targeting AND click casting = omg terrible
Is it? I just started healing again for the first time since Vanilla. I've got Grid set up right now and it seems to work fine (not ugly, shows me cleansable debuffs and reminds me about Earth Shield) but the setup seems a bit janky and I dislike that there's no easy way for me to turn it on and off (since I only want it on when I'm resto.)
You mean you click target, right? Click targeting is going to be slower than either mouseover macros or clique-style mouse healing, but if you know what you're doing it's not going to make a huge difference.
Perspicacity
Banned
EDIT: Misread
Alex
Member
Vuhdo is like Grid, just more fleshed out and a little more modern, I suppose? I always used Grid in the past and enjoyed it, but this seems like the natural step forward. (On the contrary I've always found Healbot to be a bit simplistic and tacky, but I don't want to be a healing mod bitch here)
It's the same concept but it's just more powerful with more options. The display options, AoE clusters, bouquets, etc are all very neat. Especially a Resto Shaman, although as a Resto Shaman it also does a good job of reminding you just how awkward and tedious your AoE healing can be in a 10 man!
One issue though is that with more power and this kind of configuration comes a rather hefty learning curve, it has a nice UI (far better than what Grid had during WOTLK at least) but there's just a lot more options involved. There's some amazing video guides to it though on Youtube and the such.
cuevas. PhD.
Member
Gvaz said:
Virgil
charlequin
Banned
Angry Grimace said:
A mouse button is not a key and if you people are going to get into an idiotic argument about this I'm going to pedantically correct you when you're wrong about things.
Alex said:
I just set up Grid and it's okay but I'm kind of annoyed on principle that it doesn't give me the option to easily turn it on and off. I looked at some stuff for Vuhdo and it looked like they want you to do all your binds through it? Is that true? I just spent like an hour writing stupid mouseover macros so I don't want to make my interface even MORE dependent on a specific addon than it is now.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
You honestly don't think that's a semantic argument? The point was that he isn't clicking the icons to cast the spells; he has them bound to some kind of one-press mouseover button. Almost every raid-level healer has that.charlequin said:A mouse button is not a key and if you people are going to get into an idiotic argument about this I'm going to pedantically correct you when you're wrong about things.
Yeah...it IS exactly the same thing. Just because I get a Naga and bind every key to the little thumb buttons on the side doesn't make me a 'clicker' either, 'clicker' and 'keybinder' have everything to do with HOW you're using your interface, not with the physical technicality of 'clicking' with your mouse or 'hitting a key' on your keyboard. If I somehow bound a bunch of keys to an electronic keyboard, they would still functionally be keybinds. Same thing, you've BOUND abilities to your mouse buttons. You are not clicking abilities on your hotbars.
If you're a clicker aside from the 2-3 heals you use as clique/healbot heals, then you're still bad, it's just not AS bad, probably by a fair margin not as bad. It's simply not possible to react with the speed that you need when you're clicking hotkeys. I click SOME things, most people probably do, like my prepots and stuff, cause it's irrelevant, speed doesn't enter into it. But when I'm in a fight, anything I use 99% of the time, is keybound in a manner that doesn't make any difference what I'm doing with my mouse at the time - that is keybinding.
I know, you're thinking "AHA but I'm doing things with my mouse cause I'm mousing over my targets or clicking on them' or somne other counterpoint like that, but you're missing the purpose which is that you could be doing those things with those buttons NO MATTER WHERE your mouse is. Sure, to hit a specific target you need to hit them, but a true clicker would always need to go back down to their FLASH HEAL button in order to actually cast flash heal, it's a world of difference, and it is NOT clicking in mmo terms.
If you're a clicker aside from the 2-3 heals you use as clique/healbot heals, then you're still bad, it's just not AS bad, probably by a fair margin not as bad. It's simply not possible to react with the speed that you need when you're clicking hotkeys. I click SOME things, most people probably do, like my prepots and stuff, cause it's irrelevant, speed doesn't enter into it. But when I'm in a fight, anything I use 99% of the time, is keybound in a manner that doesn't make any difference what I'm doing with my mouse at the time - that is keybinding.
I know, you're thinking "AHA but I'm doing things with my mouse cause I'm mousing over my targets or clicking on them' or somne other counterpoint like that, but you're missing the purpose which is that you could be doing those things with those buttons NO MATTER WHERE your mouse is. Sure, to hit a specific target you need to hit them, but a true clicker would always need to go back down to their FLASH HEAL button in order to actually cast flash heal, it's a world of difference, and it is NOT clicking in mmo terms.
Wut.charlequin said:A mouse button is not a key and if you people are going to get into an idiotic argument about this I'm going to pedantically correct you when you're wrong about things.
You have to mouse over the raid frame no matter what when healing. What's the difference between a shift+click for greater heal and having 5 or mouse button 5 modified by shift for a greater heal?
hover-->shift+5
hover-->shift+click
hover-->shift+mouse button 5
All are bound buttons with modifiers and so you don't have to click the spells.
I don't know how clique works, but it seems like there's a point where you need mouse over key binds as well. On the mouse or keyboard either one.
The argument should probably be that your main abilities shouldn't be activated by a modifier.
At the end of the day you should be binding your abilities to easily accessible buttons/keys/etc. Playing without doing so just creates an extraneous amount of work at your own expense, and you cannot possibly hope to keep up with those who do otherwise.
Additionally, buy one of these:
Additionally, buy one of these:
I don't know if I got a defective unit or my PC is messed up, but my cursor jumps around horribly after a while when I use mine. Sometimes it's like the Y axis dies and it will only move along the X. I tried old and new drivers. Restarts.Dance In My Blood said:
I tested it out for a week cause it'd work for hours on and off. It's sitting in the closet.
I didn't RMA cause it was scratched on the bottom from wear and tear.How do you avoid hovering over a player when healing in a raid?Gvaz said:
charlequin
Banned
Angry Grimace said:
I think it's worth being precise with language and not saying things like MOUSE BUTTONS ARE KEYS IT'S ALL THE SAME THING. Keybinding and mousebinding are pretty different strategies for healing and both quite distinct from the bad behaviors you want to criticize (like clicking hotbar buttons), which is the entire reason precise language is valuable in the first place! (I already covered why click-casting and click-targeting were bad in that post and you just ignored that to make this silly argument, which is the only reason I'm making such a big point of arguing with you; if you had just nodded in agreement or something we could have moved on to collectively bitching about some other ephemeral and unimportant complaint by now.)
Like wonderdung mentioned, the way you set both of them up is pretty different. If you're using keybinds for your heals but you're click targeting, you're still wasting precious time between your target and cast (which is why you should be using mouseover targeting instead) whereas with a mouse you're obviously going to be clicking to cast. Especially if you're using a bunch of modifier keys on a standard three-button mouse what you actually wind up with is going to be pretty different from most keyboard strategies (and affect how you move while casting, etc. etc.)
I mean, I'm not saying etiolate wasn't behind his own complete disastrous communications breakdown to start this whole ridiculous discussion in the first place, but sheesh.
cuevas. PhD.
Member
Dance In My Blood said:At the end of the day you should be binding your abilities to easily accessible buttons/keys/etc. Playing without doing so just creates an extraneous amount of work at your own expense, and you cannot possibly hope to keep up with those who do otherwise.
Additionally, buy one of these:
Why would you need that? Mx518 and I have like 15 spells bound to my mouse.
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