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World of Warcraft |OT9| People still play this? Isn't it from 2004

Metroidvania

People called Romanes they go the house?
I'll gladly take the current crafting system over the previous one in Draenor. Actually, it wasn't the crafting per se, it was basically standard issue stuff, but it was really the garrison being the #1 source of your gathering mats since it was so bloody terrible trying to find the crap out in the world.

Wut. Cannot agree with this, at all.

I understand/agree that the gathering in WoD being made redundant for BS/Engi and alchemy users, which compounded the issue re: the Garrison being the entirety of your WoD experience, but at the same time, the 2/3 star 'gathering' profession 'bonuses' are terribly RNG-dependent to acquire (and similar to the legendary problem, makes things feel bad the longer you go without getting a rank up ). To be fair, Blizz has said they've increased rank 2/3 drop rates, so maybe I'm just unlucky.

But even beyond that, every crafted option at max level that isn't alchemy (highest demand from Raiders) or Enchanting (free chaos crystals from WQs once your ilevel gets high enough) is worthless now unless you want to invest way more than you've ever had to in the past to get gear that gets outdated the moment you step into normal nighthold, and will not do you any favors in getting accepted for non-carry mythics.

If there was a mix of WoD's more reasonable recipes (and more reason to actually have them be made, such as maybe letting some of the 795 gear be available for alts at 101 or what have you) combined with the overall improvements in scattering of nodes near WQ spots and roads throughout each zone, I'd take it.
'
Granted, we'll have to see how good the crafted legendaries' abilities are in 7.2 (and how much they cost mat-wise, though Bloods of Sargeras probably means it's a non-issue overall), but Legion isn't without some sizable caveats in terms of crafting profs.
 
Eh, the new direction in Legion for crafting I think is slightly better than WoD, WoD was easily the worst implementation. Though I much preferred Mists and earlier versions of the system, even if they were a little stale/predictable after awhile.

They still haven't really nailed (IMO) crafting after what, 12 years? Gotta be a happy medium in there somewhere that takes the best elements of all the iterations they've had and/or uses new ideas.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Eh, the new direction in Legion for crafting I think is slightly better than WoD, WoD was easily the worst implementation. Though I much preferred Mists and earlier versions of the system, even if they were a little stale/predictable after awhile.

They still haven't really nailed (IMO) crafting after what, 12 years? Gotta be a happy medium in there somewhere that takes the best elements of all the iterations they've had and/or uses new ideas.

Honestly, outside of gathering being fucked up in WoD crafting was perfect. The gear stayed useful and helped make up for bad luck on drops so you could stay current, but it wasn't too easy and made you work for it. In Legion the gear is shit (and expensive) and the amount of effort it takes to make it good is insane. It's just not worth it right now.
 

Robin64

Member
The notion of making crafted gear then getting enough Obliterum to bring it up to scratch seems ludicrous right now, when you can just go do a random world quest like kicking some squirrels and get an equivalent piece of gear just like that.
 

mclem

Member
I think the big problem with crafting is that it can't be truly worthwhile if it exists in a vacuum - if it's treated as an isolated progression path in itself, it's easy enough to craft an item with purchased mats that it can't afford to make the reward-based items look inferior.

There's two other options.


One is that top-end crafting doesn't give gear directly but instead improves gear - think enchants and gems these days, but also armour kits, belt buckles and shield spikes in days gone by. That's one way to keep crafting relevant, but it tends to be the case that it feels like you're not using the full range of your crafting potential, there's just one to three recipes that really matter, and a lot of mats just don't get used.

The second is to have crafting tiers, requiring reward-based drops to open the newer tiers - Obsidian chunks, Lava/Fiery Cores. Which works to some extent towards keeping crafting relevant late into an expansion, but has the problem of then restricting top-end crafting progression to those players doing the content that rewards the essential items - and the structure back then was generally to have a guild pool the items and dole them out as required to gear people up strategically - which works, but is fundamentally incompatible with the notion of personal loot (and in turn, LFR)

I'm not sure what the right direction is. Blood of Sargeras have effectively become a sort of 'crafting currency', but they're a bit too easy to gather (and, at least in my case, far too hard to find much of a use for!), but maybe that's the sort of direction to work in - doing content collects 'gather currency' which can be traded for top-end crafting materials, with the rate of collection varying depending on the content (and with structured raids perhaps offering the drops directly instead?)
 

v1perz53

Member
WoD CRAFTING was fine, it was the gathering that I felt was the problem (being entirely confined to your garrison). WoD introduced the upgrade system for crafted items, which I thought was a huge boon to crafting overall allowing you to keep items relevant, and I actually think the 3 crafted item limit was smart since it allowed you to make those pieces very strong without worrying they would be OP. I also always thought the "make X of this material per day, make an item when you get Y total" system was bad, it allowed scarcity in the market so pieces could be worth more, and gave you something to work towards. And finally, the best aspect of the crafting system was that items were equippable and minimum level (90), so if you had money for your alts you could super power them and make things easier.

Legion crafting falls apart at basically all of these areas where I thought WoD was good. No crafting item limit means crafted gear always has to be worse than gear acquired in the world, no limited daily mats for crafted items means that the market is flooded with them and they are worth so much less overall, you can't even twink alts with crafted items and they remain a bad source of gear for fresh 110s unless you can chain heroics, because a fresh 110 has no way to get Blood of Sargeras easily to upgrade their items. Not even mentioning the HORRIBLE 3 star system which gives no benefit and only downsides, or the fact that professions require quests in dungeons that most groups will refuse to do those bonus objectives for since they are out of the way.

But honestly, the end result is that crafting professions in legion (aside from alchemy/ench) cost enormous sums of money to get to max level while providing almost nothing useful at all.
 

strafer

member
Only weapon I ever crafted and felt good about was the Titansteel Destroyer.

That weapon was a money maker.

titansteel%20destroyer.jpg
 

v1perz53

Member
Only weapon I ever crafted and felt good about was the Titansteel Destroyer.

That weapon was a money maker.

Making Arcanite Reapers back in Vanilla felt pretty good! That thing was a monster, before weapon normalization it was better than most raid weapons, and it remained super strong even afterwards. But vanilla was a different game entirely.
 
Honestly, outside of gathering being fucked up in WoD crafting was perfect. The gear stayed useful and helped make up for bad luck on drops so you could stay current, but it wasn't too easy and made you work for it. In Legion the gear is shit (and expensive) and the amount of effort it takes to make it good is insane. It's just not worth it right now.

The problem is though, gathering is core to a crafting system, so it's impossible to say it was perfect, oh besides this thing that makes a huge difference.

The drawbacks to the WoD system in my eyes were everything being limited by one daily CD widget resource. Hated that, as it essentially socialized crafting to the extreme, serving as an equalizer (in this case a bad thing), since there was no reward or incentive to put forth any extra effort beyond logging in and pressing one button each day. For the people who couldn't do anything but that, it was great I guess, but for the more dedicated, there was no way to get ahead.

The other thing, which is more a fault of the amount of content in WoD, was the lack of additional crafts added. New raid or patch should = new gear, new crafting materials. I don't like the fact that they just had these upgrade tokens - that's not nearly as fun or engaging to me as entirely new recipes/pieces of gear. Vs. now where it's just "oh I better dump some extremely generic obliterum into this piece I already have." Having to buy new pieces entirely stimulates the economy more than just upgrading existing stuff. I would prefer if they went back to the Wrath/Cata model of having these raid drop recipes for extremely powerful pieces of gear for the tier, that also required new materials that dropped from said raid. Getting Spiked Deathdealers, or the Breastplate of the White Knight, for example, felt really good.

Another thing would be lack of dependency between professions. Engineers needing stuff from well, everyone. Enchanters needing rods from Blacksmiths. Alchemy Transmutes or Mining Smelts that matter, etc.

I think that's all I want to cover for now, bit rambly, but yeah.
 

Bisnic

Really Really Exciting Member!
Are warlocks still as bad as they were at launch? Is Demonology still the worst one of the three?
 

Lomax

Member
Are warlocks still as bad as they were at launch? Is Demonology still the worst one of the three?

Demo is still clunky but the numbers are great. If you have the legendary boots that allow casting while moving it makes a world of difference.
 

v1perz53

Member
The problem is though, gathering is core to a crafting system, so it's impossible to say it was perfect, oh besides this thing that makes a huge difference.

The drawbacks to the WoD system in my eyes were everything being limited by one daily CD widget resource. Hated that, as it essentially socialized crafting to the extreme, serving as an equalizer (in this case a bad thing), since there was no reward or incentive to put forth any extra effort beyond logging in and pressing one button each day. For the people who couldn't do anything but that, it was great I guess, but for the more dedicated, there was no way to get ahead.

The other thing, which is more a fault of the amount of content in WoD, was the lack of additional crafts added. New raid or patch should = new gear, new crafting materials. I don't like the fact that they just had these upgrade tokens - that's not nearly as fun or engaging to me as entirely new recipes/pieces of gear. Vs. now where it's just "oh I better dump some extremely generic obliterum into this piece I already have." Having to buy new pieces entirely stimulates the economy more than just upgrading existing stuff. I would prefer if they went back to the Wrath/Cata model of having these raid drop recipes for extremely powerful pieces of gear for the tier, that also required new materials that dropped from said raid. Getting Spiked Deathdealers, or the Breastplate of the White Knight, for example, felt really good.

Another thing would be lack of dependency between professions. Engineers needing stuff from well, everyone. Enchanters needing rods from Blacksmiths. Alchemy Transmutes or Mining Smelts that matter, etc.

I think that's all I want to cover for now, bit rambly, but yeah.

I really couldn't disagree more. I don't think since TBC I've had a gathering toon, I've had 2x crafters since WotLK. I've always just bought my mats from the AH (even in WoD, I never bothered with the tedium of the mine or herb garden), didn't affect my experience as a crafter at all how the mats were available. In all cases I just bought them. The relevance of crafted gear, ease of levelling crafted professions, and usefulness of crafted items all has nothing at all to do with how the raw materials are obtained. Literally the only impact gathering has on crafting is the price to craft and profit gained from items you make. How good the crafting system is in any one expansion couldn't have less to do with how gathering works/is balanced for a huge amount of players.

Honestly, to each their own, but pretty much everything you said you liked about the old systems I hated, and all the things you didn't like about WoD I thought were great. I liked everything being tied to a daily mat, meant nothing would flood the AH but anyone who wanted to could work towards crafting anything, and you felt more invested in your crafts since you had to use your daily CD for X days, instead of just "buy mats from AH, make item" as it is otherwise. I MUCH preferred upgrade tokens and no new crafted recipes to endless new crafted pieces fully replacing the old ones never to be sold again, especially since further crafted pieces always required raid mats that I would never have access to since my raid team would use them for the guild. I think upgrade tokens stimulates the economy more since every crafter can make them and every player can potentiall use them, instead of just raiders getting the recipes and the mats for the new stuff. Also, the forced "interplay" between professions in the past was some of the most tedious and worthless integration to me. Needing a blacksmith rod for enchanting, needing an alchemist to make you fuel as an engineer, it was just an artificial barrier to crafting and again you just bought some junk from the AH, and if your server didn't have any on the AH you couldn't make stuff. I think people who are most into crafting are least likely to be hardcore raiders or in huge guilds of people who can also craft lots of stuff, so the more self contained crafting is, the better it serves the actual audience that is heavily invested in it.

Anyway, I guess the game couldn't help but troll me just a little after giving me a BiS legendary. Opened my weekly order hall cache, and it has ilvl 900 bracers with perfect stats and a socket... same slot I just got BiS legendary bracers for. Oh well, fine with me, guess I can use them for off-spec hah.
 

Mupod

Member
raging/necrotic/fortified week. Uhhh sorry guys I can't tank I have to manage my real estate in Yakuza 0.

Here's hoping for something worthwhile out of my weekly chest. The terrorbound nexus last week was surprisingly useful, its damage output is insane for a mythic+ tank. Worthless for a DPS in raids though.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
I got a +10 arcway key

Is arcway a good dungeon to run? Never done it. Will people be vehemently against it like Halls of Valor?

It's a bit of a long one with one or two annoying pulls. It kinda feels like they didn't develop it with mythic+ in mind. That said, it's got some really good drops and getting them at a mythic +10 level should draw some interest. Though given this week's affixes it might be an uphill battle given they all buff trash mobs.
 

Mupod

Member
I got a +10 arcway key

Is arcway a good dungeon to run? Never done it. Will people be vehemently against it like Halls of Valor?


it's the fucking worst. The only saving grace is that they give you such a ridiculous amount of time to finish it, it's usually not hard to clear in time. Also I think they finally added some checkpoints to it, a wipe before used to mean you were running from the entrance. Even so, I'm pretty sure my group can clear Karazhan - including Nightbane - faster than a +10 arcway.

It does let up a little once you're past the demon area. The bosses aren't stupidly hard. It's just a really long, shitty dungeon. Those banshees can go to hell.

One trick to keep in mind is if you line of sight the mana wyrm swarms they'll chase your tank out of the room and bunch up for AOE. They suck to fight otherwise.
 
I got a +10 arcway key

Is arcway a good dungeon to run? Never done it. Will people be vehemently against it like Halls of Valor?

Arcway's fine most weeks. It's one a lot of people carry (mostly for loot). Bosses are simple. Stuns / interrupts make trash fine usually.

But raging / fortified week in there? No thank you.
 

v1perz53

Member
I got a +10 arcway key

Is arcway a good dungeon to run? Never done it. Will people be vehemently against it like Halls of Valor?

As most have said, this is kind of a terrible week to have an Arcway key. Raging + Fortified means that if the non-CCable Seer chooses to do his unavoidable uninterruptable AoE under 30% HP anyone without a personal CD will die. Necrotic sucks there too. Along with plenty of other awful interactions there.

In general though, Arcway is actually a pretty good key to get, because the timer is VERY forgiving, and the gear there is "better" than other dungeons (a lot of the random effects the gear has aren't budgeted, so you get them for free in addition to item stats). I just wish they would leave all the doors open for M+ runs, I always get Right sided runs which are far more annoying than Left, where you can do like 4 less trash pulls and come at some of the areas from a better direction.

Sigh, not looking forward to trying to figure out how to deal with Necrotic on my fresh pally tank, not nearly as good kiting options as I have on my Guardian druid. But honestly, at least it isn't skittish, FUCK skittish. I'm so fucking tired of being raged at by any DPS that we PUG for the whole run in tells saying that I'm a bad tank because they keep dying because they cannot be bothered to wait 4 seconds before going HAAM on a pack, even after I told them how skittish works and that they need to wait at the very least until all the mobs are standing in one area before they go crazy with DPS... Yea not bitter at all about the PUGs I ran last week...
 
I really couldn't disagree more. I don't think since TBC I've had a gathering toon, I've had 2x crafters since WotLK. I've always just bought my mats from the AH (even in WoD, I never bothered with the tedium of the mine or herb garden), didn't affect my experience as a crafter at all how the mats were available. In all cases I just bought them. The relevance of crafted gear, ease of levelling crafted professions, and usefulness of crafted items all has nothing at all to do with how the raw materials are obtained. Literally the only impact gathering has on crafting is the price to craft and profit gained from items you make. How good the crafting system is in any one expansion couldn't have less to do with how gathering works/is balanced for a huge amount of players.

Honestly, to each their own, but pretty much everything you said you liked about the old systems I hated, and all the things you didn't like about WoD I thought were great. I liked everything being tied to a daily mat, meant nothing would flood the AH but anyone who wanted to could work towards crafting anything, and you felt more invested in your crafts since you had to use your daily CD for X days, instead of just "buy mats from AH, make item" as it is otherwise. I MUCH preferred upgrade tokens and no new crafted recipes to endless new crafted pieces fully replacing the old ones never to be sold again, especially since further crafted pieces always required raid mats that I would never have access to since my raid team would use them for the guild. I think upgrade tokens stimulates the economy more since every crafter can make them and every player can potentially use them, instead of just raiders getting the recipes and the mats for the new stuff. Also, the forced "interplay" between professions in the past was some of the most tedious and worthless integration to me. Needing a blacksmith rod for enchanting, needing an alchemist to make you fuel as an engineer, it was just an artificial barrier to crafting and again you just bought some junk from the AH, and if your server didn't have any on the AH you couldn't make stuff. I think people who are most into crafting are least likely to be hardcore raiders or in huge guilds of people who can also craft lots of stuff, so the more self contained crafting is, the better it serves the actual audience that is heavily invested in it.

You make some good points. Not going to address everything (don't have time to be exhaustive) here and we'll still probably disagree, but mainly:

Everything being tied to a daily mat made crafting mindlessly dull and boring in WoD. There was no flavor, no role-playing subtext. Lack of interplay between professions is also a case of losing the role-playing aspect. Maybe you don't care about that, but it was important to me. Just crafting one thing as a base material isn't nearly as engaging as having to gather various exotic ingredients from different parts of the world. I mean sure, you can always buy stuff on the AH, but that's sort of besides the point (and the AH desperately needs a revamp, but that's a whole other conversation). I liked having to puzzle together various parts to make a whole, rather than "press one button, win game." But I suppose this all depends on how much you care about professions as a system - whether you consider it a core RPG mechanic, or just a side affair.

Other than that, we can only speculate on the types of people who are most into crafting. The sentiment I seem to get from "goblin" types is that the more modern stuff wasn't as well-received because of the lack of shuffles, difficult to manage markets like glyphs (glyph market, and inscription in general may as well not exist in Legion), etc. That's my interpretation, at least, though it's anecdotal evidence all the way down for either side I think.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Either way, I'm not super happy with crafting in WoW right now (primarily the RNG nature of acquiring the 3rd star level in cases like alchemy) though it's not terrible, and I haven't been satisfied since maybe Mists. Even then though there were flaws for sure. I just think it can be improved, and maybe it doesn't have to be too burdensome --- it can be streamlined to an extent, but I would like flavor, role-playing in it, I guess is the point I'm trying to make.

Oh and the auction house, for the love of god, make the auction house better. Fucking ancient code/system that is, as bad as the backpack probably. I'd probably like to see something similar to the buy/sell orders in EVE, but that game also has the cool effect of arbitrage in that goods are physically located at different points (stations) in real space in the game -- there's money to be made "space trucking" stuff around to and from different market hubs.

---------------------------------------------------------------

In other news, got a shitty 890 neck this week from the box that is useless (haste/mastery), already got a 900 one last week. Eye of Azshara 10 key :(
 
As most have said, this is kind of a terrible week to have an Arcway key. Raging + Fortified means that if the non-CCable Seer chooses to do his unavoidable uninterruptable AoE under 30% HP anyone without a personal CD will die. Necrotic sucks there too. Along with plenty of other awful interactions there.

In general though, Arcway is actually a pretty good key to get, because the timer is VERY forgiving, and the gear there is "better" than other dungeons (a lot of the random effects the gear has aren't budgeted, so you get them for free in addition to item stats). I just wish they would leave all the doors open for M+ runs, I always get Right sided runs which are far more annoying than Left, where you can do like 4 less trash pulls and come at some of the areas from a better direction.

Sigh, not looking forward to trying to figure out how to deal with Necrotic on my fresh pally tank, not nearly as good kiting options as I have on my Guardian druid. But honestly, at least it isn't skittish, FUCK skittish. I'm so fucking tired of being raged at by any DPS that we PUG for the whole run in tells saying that I'm a bad tank because they keep dying because they cannot be bothered to wait 4 seconds before going HAAM on a pack, even after I told them how skittish works and that they need to wait at the very least until all the mobs are standing in one area before they go crazy with DPS... Yea not bitter at all about the PUGs I ran last week...

This and other replies

Fuck me. This game hates me. Always guving me Halls of Valor keys :(
 
At first I was bummed that I didn't get a +15 last week but my chest rolled a 900 anyway and it was an upgrade. Not bad.

Not sure if I'll bother with pushing anything over 8 or 9, whatever gives the third affix, this week though. Looks like it'll be too rough.
 

Strimei

Member
New keystone affixes in tonight's build:

Explosive Fel (New) - While in combat, enemies periodically summon an Explosive Orb that will explode if not destroyed.
Grievous (New) - While below 90% health players are afflicted with Grievous Wound.
Quaking (New) - Periodically players in the zone will explode and damage nearby allies.
Relentless (New) - Non-boss enemies are granted temporary immunity to Loss of Control effects.

Also bursting changed to a dot of 10% of your maximum health when a non-boss enemy dies (and explodes), instead of 20%.

edit:


Monks also get a cub pet of their mount.
 

Strimei

Member
So...looks like artifact knowledge may go up to 40 in 7.2.

I recall seeing that AK26 is 49,500% so Jesus, can you imagine the percentages we'll be reaching?

edit: Also this is kind of interesting, there's a bunch of "unidentified (class)" legendaries and corresponding spells to identify them (and it says it'll identify it as one appropriate to your current spec). Why is this interesting? Because these legendary token things are BoA.
 
So...looks like artifact knowledge may go up to 40 in 7.2.

I recall seeing that AK26 is 49,500% so Jesus, can you imagine the percentages we'll be reaching?

edit: Also this is kind of interesting, there's a bunch of "unidentified (class)" legendaries and corresponding spells to identify them (and it says it'll identify it as one appropriate to your current spec). Why is this interesting? Because these legendary token things are BoA.

It'd be great if the utility class neutral legendaries became BoA
 

Einchy

semen stains the mountaintops
They said that not all specs were going to have different colored mounts but I wonder if they changed their view on that.
 

Einchy

semen stains the mountaintops
Currently running normal EN for the billionth time just for a possible legendary, meanwhile, guy in the guild got his 6th and and alt DH got the ring.

[edit]

Once the xpack is over, I think the legendary system will be the biggest mistake Blizzard committed.
 

mclem

Member
So...looks like artifact knowledge may go up to 40 in 7.2.

I recall seeing that AK26 is 49,500% so Jesus, can you imagine the percentages we'll be reaching?

They've said that you'll get the 34-54 AP refunded in 7.2, have they given any indication as to how many new traits the full 20 levels' AP would equate to?
 

v1perz53

Member
Finally!

Too bad the Frost +15 keystone skin looks terrible. But the Blood one is perfect.

I'm a little sad that I'll never get some of the cooler Balance of Power skins on my alts (or my main for that matter), because some of them like the Blood DK one look really awesome. But there's simply no way I'm gonna pug EN normal for 6-8 weeks when every single piece of gear that drops is a downgrade.

It seems they're absolutely set on the fact that these quest items won't drop in LFR, but could they at least speed up the EN part a bit? I think 2 weeks of pugging EN normal should be enough to finish the quest now that the content isn't in the least bit relevant anymore...
 

Shahadan

Member
I won a roll for a ring on Tichondrius but the guy gave it to a fucker who opened a trade window to ninja the loot.

Any chance a ticket will help?
 

Faiz

Member
I'd been ignoring Jc for a while, leveling an alt w/herb and alch.

Discovered this morning 815 JC items listing at 20k on the auction house, several times what they were listing at when I last looked. Which admittedly has been a while. A month or more.

Any idea why?
 

Savitar

Member
I won a roll for a ring on Tichondrius but the guy gave it to a fucker who opened a trade window to ninja the loot.

Any chance a ticket will help?

Can only try. Pretty sure I heard of such things happening before and a GM giving it to the right person but can only see.


And I did the world boss dragon today, got the legendary cloak for my paladin!

Did bonus roll and got a new helmet too.

Oh WoW....some times you just make me not want to hurt you.
 

dimb

Bjergsen is the greatest midlane in the world
Started doing the Archeology quest thinking...."oh, this won't take long." Then you collect 40 pages and realize that's part one of nine.
 
Here's an interesting side to 7.2. I was taking to a guildmate about, how will things be adjusted when people lose their +15% damage or whatever tanks and healers get. They've mentioned that all artifact weapons will get buffed to make sure losing those extra ranks won't be a loss but that also seems a little crazy for people who haven't been pushing past 36 who will just get a nice increase post 7.2. Will just have to keep an eye out for PTR patch notes.

On a class level, there's a new Outlaw golden trait that effects Roll the Bones, and I wonder if it'll also buff Slice and Dice too. Are there other classes that have artifact traits which can be effected or changed by talents? Just curious about the possibilities.
 

Metroidvania

People called Romanes they go the house?
I'd been ignoring Jc for a while, leveling an alt w/herb and alch.

Discovered this morning 815 JC items listing at 20k on the auction house, several times what they were listing at when I last looked. Which admittedly has been a while. A month or more.

Any idea why?

Certain necklaces (Mainly the ones that double roll a single stat, i.e double crit for firemages), when upgraded to the new max crafted ilevel, are BIS, at least until heroic/mythic nighthold.

Also, JC sucks to actually level, so they may be trying to recoup investments
 
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