OK good for you. I run a pharmacy and guess what, many drugs don't meet the patient's expectations. Should I be offering refunds for every prescription that doesn't work? Why do you think the FDA's main criteria is safety and not efficacy? You can't guarantee that a product meet's everyone's expectations and therefore that is not the criteria for a refund.
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WOW OMG: Steam is refunding No Man's Sky even if you played more then 2 hours
- Thread starter Tony Iron Man Stark
- Start date
OK good for you. I run a pharmacy and guess what, many drugs don't meet the patient's expectations. Should I be offering refunds for every prescription that doesn't work? Why do you think the FDA's main criteria is safety and not efficacy? You can't guarantee that a product meet's everyone's expectations and therefore that is not the criteria for a refund.
if you leave a movie in the first 30 mins, the cinema here gives you your money back.
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
We are able to have a satisfaction guarantee because we make our own products much like HG...
There are many other reasons that a pharmacy wouldn't give refunds and you know it. That is a bad example.
duck_sauce
Gold Member
Well we are talking about a game and not a medicall product. I fail to see the relevance of your example.
Did any of these drugs claim to cure ailments, only for people to find out the active ingredients needed for said cure were removed from the medication without notice? Otherwise this isn't apples to apples.
I was denied because I exchanged Destiny Rise of Iron for The collection upgrade so I could go fully digital. Because in Sony's eyes that was a refund, they denied me my one time show of goodwill. Should I try again tomorrow (apparently they just closed) or do you think the system literally locks them from processing refunds on accounts that had the refund?
If the only criteria for a refund is not meeting one's expectations, you don't think that's a slippery slope? I just don't see why games are held to this much higher standard than other forms of entertainment. It would make the industry impossible to function because it is exceedingly difficult to ensure a game is bug free upon release and to meet everyone's expectations.
sazzy
Member
medicines = videogames is a nonsense premise.
I say good. Normally I would oppose this kind of thing, but with NMS, the product that was sold is so different than what was promoted, and even now is promoted in the Steam page, that it's a clear-cut case of false advertising.
Due to the galaxy-spanning nature of the game, it can take longer than two hours to find out of there really is anything other than the repetitive resource management grind out there. It can take longer than this to notice that features that were promised don't exist at all, and perhaps never did.
The game was literally sold on lies... not just hyperbole or claims of greatness that perhaps are not reflected in the quality of the game, but blatant deception and misleading promotion of large features missing from the final product. Setting a precedent that this is not acceptable is more important than risking some folks just getting their digs in and getting a refund because they are opportunists.
And there was a pre-order incentive, so "waiting to see what players said" was not an option for those consumers who wanted to take advantage of that incentive. At any rate, this victim-blaming crap is insufferable. Whether or not people got caught up in the hype too much is irrelevant and in no way changes the fact that they were lied to and sold on a product that does not exist in the form it was promised. The onus is on the con, not the mark.
So I hope everyone who feels ripped off by Sean Murray gets their money back. He has no one to blame but himself. If my refund goes through I will use the sixty bucks to support a different indie dev or four and feel a lot better about doing it.
Due to the galaxy-spanning nature of the game, it can take longer than two hours to find out of there really is anything other than the repetitive resource management grind out there. It can take longer than this to notice that features that were promised don't exist at all, and perhaps never did.
The game was literally sold on lies... not just hyperbole or claims of greatness that perhaps are not reflected in the quality of the game, but blatant deception and misleading promotion of large features missing from the final product. Setting a precedent that this is not acceptable is more important than risking some folks just getting their digs in and getting a refund because they are opportunists.
And there was a pre-order incentive, so "waiting to see what players said" was not an option for those consumers who wanted to take advantage of that incentive. At any rate, this victim-blaming crap is insufferable. Whether or not people got caught up in the hype too much is irrelevant and in no way changes the fact that they were lied to and sold on a product that does not exist in the form it was promised. The onus is on the con, not the mark.
So I hope everyone who feels ripped off by Sean Murray gets their money back. He has no one to blame but himself. If my refund goes through I will use the sixty bucks to support a different indie dev or four and feel a lot better about doing it.
You could try again just don't mention that you've had a refund before. Usually they allow one refund per year.
Heavy_D206
Member
The hate against NMS is so absurd.
If you request a refund after playing for 8 hours then I have zero respect for you.
If you request a refund after playing for 8 hours then I have zero respect for you.
What about people who skim a thread before making their opinion known? Do you have respect for that?
How many steam refund requests can I make before they get fed up?
I was refused because I'm at 11 hours """""""played"""""" while most of it was just idling/restarting the game and looking at my laptop browsing r/nomanskymods and here to somehow make the game more tolerable and make it not run like complete ass.
I was refused because I'm at 11 hours """""""played"""""" while most of it was just idling/restarting the game and looking at my laptop browsing r/nomanskymods and here to somehow make the game more tolerable and make it not run like complete ass.
Mononoaware
Banned
Why? you think because we put time into it, that they are entitled to our money because we put x amount of time into that piece of shit?
Let me put it to you this way....my time has value too! I put more than 8 hours into it, because I kept looking and hoping there might be something redeeming about the game. Something that might make the $60 worth it. Instead I just felt like I wasted $60, and too much of my own time. I'm glad I could at least get the PSN credit so i could maybe get something good.
Honestly, since the PC version released later than the PS4 one, I think the only way you should get a refund outside of the usual policy is if you run into technical problems. By the time it was out on PC any consumer could have known what was up with the game and if it would upset him/her.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I don't understand why there are people shaming others who are refunding, even using outrageous comparisons.
What is to gain? To have "morally high ground"?
What is to gain? To have "morally high ground"?
Essentially what this thread shows is that the industry will never accept refunds without some sort of restrictions (I.e steam's 2 hr limit). I don't think anyone is arguing that you can't refund a broken product. But the industry wouldn't survive if the refund criteria was simply whether you liked the game or not or met your expectations.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
but that's not the case here, you're crusading for something that is irrelevant to this thread
Here's a technical problem: My game is missing tons of stuff that's supposed to be there. Lots of this stuff wasn't even found out until the PC version released, btw.
The equivalence of a medicine being the same as NMS is giving the patient a pill for nausea and digestion but it ends up helping with neither of those. I find all these refunds justified just on the basis that Sean straight up lied about most of the features of this game, hopefully this won't happen again.
Xisiqomelir
Member
I'm solidly on Team Kyoufu. Amazed we have a Defence Force for a broken product.
Shang
Member
Time isn't a metric of quality.
Are all those drugs you prescribe promising they will be effective above a certain baseline to all customers? Be effective for all users for certain ailments? Are you making that promise?
Because that is what the issue is here. Expectations set by the developer that did not actually exist when used. The crashing issue could be considered the level of side effects a drug has. And when a drug has severe side effects, it can be held legally liable and often is. NMS is one of the most egregious violators of that in some time.
Frankly in most countries, making the sort of false promises that Hello Games did but about a drug would lead to legal recourse that could put people behind bars and bankrupt the company through civil lawsuits.
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
I would if there weren't more to it in this case. It works for us because people love our products. If some of the very rare refunds that we do are people ripping us off it is more than made up for by others who are very happy. Especially because of our customer service.
Thing is that companies tend to look at business much differently than I look at mine. For me it isn't about how much I can get as fast as I can get it. It isn't about maximum profit. I don't read the FRA and get all tingly.
I know that what we do is filling a hole for something that a lot of people need/want. I take peace of mind that I am doing a good thing. It's also good to know that something that I make is bringing others joy and helping them feel better. Thing is that by doing this, being transparent and open and consumer focused like I would want others to be to me, it garners a really awesome following of loyal repeat customers that more than make up for those who may be disingenuous. Almost like how CDProjekt thinks about their business model when it comes to piracy.
That's how we have prospered even in a world filled with those who would take advantage. I didn't start off my business thinking to get rich quick. I want to lay solid foundations and start slow and grow from there. It's working beautifully.
With games I can absolutely see where people could abuse the normal refund policies and I think that refund deadlines are a good thing in most cases... But in this case I think refunds are justified after the way this entire situation has been mishandled by HG. If it where me it is what I would do. Though I certainly wouldn't have gotten myself in this situation in the first place...
Rockandrollclown
lookwhatyou'vedone
These restrictions are already in place. This game is such a shitshow they are waiving these restrictions. That's pretty telling about the dissatisfaction with this game.
Ollie Pooch
In a perfect world, we'd all be homersexual
I played probably 12 hours on the suggestion that all the tedious grind and endless upgrading was for a reason - and that reaching the centre was actually something. Turns out the different galaxies don't give you different shit despite requiring constant grinding for new 'warp drives', there's literally nothing at the centre - not even a cut scene or something new - and it's a game completely sold by obfuscation and misleading their customers. This is deserved. It doesn't help the game is an unstable unfinished mess, either.
It's the only game I've ever refunded, and props to Sony for actually allowing it on a digital purchase.
It's simple, if the game is no longer functioning or just filled with crashes and game breaking bugs then yeah you are entitled a refund, regardless of the amount of time played.
HOWEVER, I don't think you are entitled a refund if you just think the game is bad or lacking after x amount of hours, I'm sorry, maybe don't buy products blindly and read reviews first, that's just common sense. ( x being anything above 2 hours per steam policy )
HOWEVER, I don't think you are entitled a refund if you just think the game is bad or lacking after x amount of hours, I'm sorry, maybe don't buy products blindly and read reviews first, that's just common sense. ( x being anything above 2 hours per steam policy )
exmachina64
Banned
Outside of technical reasons, was anyone entitled to a refund before Valve offered refunds or did your line of thinking shift once Valve offered refunds?
I'm glad Steam and Sony are making an example of NMS by giving refunds.
I had a hunch that Sony were not happy about the poor customer feedback for which they were linked closely with despite being just the distributor. You can bet they will have tighter control over indies that charge full price next time.
While they might lose on potential sales now from the refund, this will go to show other devs that they can't fuck around by marketing one thing and selling something else to get the game out the door.
I had a hunch that Sony were not happy about the poor customer feedback for which they were linked closely with despite being just the distributor. You can bet they will have tighter control over indies that charge full price next time.
While they might lose on potential sales now from the refund, this will go to show other devs that they can't fuck around by marketing one thing and selling something else to get the game out the door.
Flying Toaster
Member
I am surprised that Sony is actually offering refunds for this digitally. I am curious to see what happens with Hello Games after this.
Jacksinthe
Banned
While I agree there should be due diligence given before a product purchase, what other medium leaves so many unanswered questions other than games? What type of medium leaves so much off the table before spending money?
This isn't just about not thinking a game is fun. This is about a whole host of reasons from missing features that were spoken of ad nauseum. About failure to create a product that works without failure.
The onus most definitely lies on us developers to state our case about our game accurately while limiting potential spoilers and providing a product that does not fail.
This blame the consumer bullshit can fuck off. I know exactly how I market and sell my game and that's not with obfuscation, misdirection and lies. It's with honesty, integrity and truth. Not everyone will like my game but I'm not going to lie about what's in it and at the same time release a buggy product.
You can fault games for not being fun and there's no way a consumer can ever technically know if a game is their cup of tea, if even in their favorite genre. But you can't fault the consumer for listening and believing an expectation set by the developer's own words.
Again:
The onus should FIRST be placed on the developer to be forthcoming with product features. They dont have to give you spoilers, plot points, fine details, but they should be held accountable for continuing and advancing a charade and a faulty product.
I expect this accountability from my fellow devs. I am not out for blood but I'll sure as shit call a spade a spade when I see one.
Expecting to be told the truth and not be sold a lemon is common sense. If it isn't, just how much research does the consumer have to do before you consider this common sense you speak of to be fulfilled? Where were all the outlets that called this shit out in their reviews? Where were all the media types and their montages of "hey look folks, BULLSHIT!"?
The media and developers have been put on blast with this game.
Good.
Ideally, they will think very very hard about how bad of a dumpster fire this whole game was and hopefully have some hard learned lessons. That and re-evaluate their code of ethics.
But honestly at this point I think Hello Games is fucking DONE.
At the very least they're going to rebrand or something, because this was an epic fuckup.
Fucking hilarious about the whole "EA bloodmoney was bad karma".
Sean Murray will NEVER be the face of a game/project/studio ever again.
You look up liar and smug in the dictionary you see that dude's face.
Rapscallion74
Banned
LOL, they are starting to cry about this thread over in the OT
d00d3n
Member
I got my refund on Steam super fast. Must have been automatic or within minutes. I had preordered the game during the Steam sale period, but only played for 8 minutes. I have refunded two games previously (Inside to be able to play the xbone version early, and Telltale Batman because I heard that it had major issues). I buy a lot on Steam, which may have contributed to the fast processing.
Admiral Woofington
Member
Is Sony allowing refunds for people who bought it day of release? I haven't touched it since the first week.
Tony Iron Man Stark
Banned
Ollie Pooch
In a perfect world, we'd all be homersexual
This is me, took 2 minutes and got a full refund.
Admiral Woofington
Member
Welp. Attempting this shit tomorrow. Unless i can try it now.
tauroxd
Member
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Oh please. You got a fully working video game. Don't try to make it sound like a malfunctioning lawnmower.
You chose to spend sixty fucking dollars on a vague concept.
Got my refund. I enjoyed myself in patches, but hit the wall and the lack of content and lies. It also started crashing significantly as I got closer to the center and its virtually unplayable now...
3 days ago I was loving it but the crashes have made it impossible for me to continue.
3 days ago I was loving it but the crashes have made it impossible for me to continue.
wow
That's a more accurate statement of the OT thread.
I don't understand how people are still defending the game and saying that no lying took place.
It's pretty sad.
VlaudTheImpaler
tl;dr
Honestly, I would try it now in case this is some kind of limited time deal or something.
"You were asking for it, believing the developer like that."
Admiral Woofington
Member
don't even see live chat option listed.
I don't think it's necessarily fair to say that "after X hours, you're not entitled to a refund."
I think of the Mass Effect 3 scenerio. Now, I wouldn't want a refund for that game even if it was available because that was like 40 hours of goodness with 10 minutes of pure shit with the ending. However, the ending really was SO bad that it basically ruined the entire experience for me. After being a die hard fan, I immediately went cold turkey. I replayed ME1 and 2 multiple times, haven't touched ME3 since I finished it. I bought all the DLC in ME1 and 2, didn't buy the DLC for 3 even after hearing good things. I MIGHT get Andromeda, but even now, I'm ehhing on it just because the finale of 3 was just that cancerous for me. It poisoned everything I loved about the series.
Now, like I said, I wouldn't get a refund because I agree that enjoying 99% of the game and then demanding the entire amount of money investement back because of 1% is perhaps unreasonable. However, it does show how it doesn't matter how much hours you put into a game or how you enjoyed those first few hours if, when you put down the controller, you are feeling like you got cheated.
As a disclaimer, I'll say that I never bought into the NMS hype (not for any particular reason, I just didn't see what was so interesting about the game pre-launch besides being pretty), but I've had experiences like many NMS fans where they felt cheated from what should have been something fantastic and instead got something that has fallen vastly short. Not just a little, but a lot. The point here is that when you play a game, even in a pure blind buy, you are putting faith in the game to deliver you an experience that is worth your time.
People say that after 8 hours, you should know what your in for, but the truth is, I've had games surprise me further in than 8 hours. I've books or comics that don't truly get good until a huge investment of time is had. So unless the game is just absolutely atrocious, I am willing to deal with most problems it has so long as I feel I am rewarded for my faith and steadfastness by the end of the journey.
I don't know how long I'd have tolerated NMS before giving up, but I could easily see myself putting in over 10 hours before realizing I was wasting my time with it. I might even go as far as making it all the way to the end, just because I would be willing to give the game a chance to deliver on the hyped up galactic center. It'd be only after I got there, and realized the full extent of the game's betrayal of my faith in it, that I'd be fully outraged at how it didn't live up to expectations.
So while I don't have a dog in this particular fight, I've been in positionswhere I'm excited for a game and willing to go out on a limb based on faith that the game will deliver something good. I don't consider this stupidity or irresponsibility, it's simply courtesy and optimism. I believe every game derserves a shot to get it's shit together and deliver on what good it can. And usually, this works out for me in some way or another. Not with big explosives turn abouts, but it usually accomplishes SOMETHING that makes me think "Well that was worth it". But if the game does fail on such a level that NMS failed many of it's fanbase (and lets face it, many people DO feel their faith in the game has been betrayed on a massive level), I think a refund is fair game, regardless of the hours they've put into it.
I think of the Mass Effect 3 scenerio. Now, I wouldn't want a refund for that game even if it was available because that was like 40 hours of goodness with 10 minutes of pure shit with the ending. However, the ending really was SO bad that it basically ruined the entire experience for me. After being a die hard fan, I immediately went cold turkey. I replayed ME1 and 2 multiple times, haven't touched ME3 since I finished it. I bought all the DLC in ME1 and 2, didn't buy the DLC for 3 even after hearing good things. I MIGHT get Andromeda, but even now, I'm ehhing on it just because the finale of 3 was just that cancerous for me. It poisoned everything I loved about the series.
Now, like I said, I wouldn't get a refund because I agree that enjoying 99% of the game and then demanding the entire amount of money investement back because of 1% is perhaps unreasonable. However, it does show how it doesn't matter how much hours you put into a game or how you enjoyed those first few hours if, when you put down the controller, you are feeling like you got cheated.
As a disclaimer, I'll say that I never bought into the NMS hype (not for any particular reason, I just didn't see what was so interesting about the game pre-launch besides being pretty), but I've had experiences like many NMS fans where they felt cheated from what should have been something fantastic and instead got something that has fallen vastly short. Not just a little, but a lot. The point here is that when you play a game, even in a pure blind buy, you are putting faith in the game to deliver you an experience that is worth your time.
People say that after 8 hours, you should know what your in for, but the truth is, I've had games surprise me further in than 8 hours. I've books or comics that don't truly get good until a huge investment of time is had. So unless the game is just absolutely atrocious, I am willing to deal with most problems it has so long as I feel I am rewarded for my faith and steadfastness by the end of the journey.
I don't know how long I'd have tolerated NMS before giving up, but I could easily see myself putting in over 10 hours before realizing I was wasting my time with it. I might even go as far as making it all the way to the end, just because I would be willing to give the game a chance to deliver on the hyped up galactic center. It'd be only after I got there, and realized the full extent of the game's betrayal of my faith in it, that I'd be fully outraged at how it didn't live up to expectations.
So while I don't have a dog in this particular fight, I've been in positionswhere I'm excited for a game and willing to go out on a limb based on faith that the game will deliver something good. I don't consider this stupidity or irresponsibility, it's simply courtesy and optimism. I believe every game derserves a shot to get it's shit together and deliver on what good it can. And usually, this works out for me in some way or another. Not with big explosives turn abouts, but it usually accomplishes SOMETHING that makes me think "Well that was worth it". But if the game does fail on such a level that NMS failed many of it's fanbase (and lets face it, many people DO feel their faith in the game has been betrayed on a massive level), I think a refund is fair game, regardless of the hours they've put into it.