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[Tranqueris]

My Steam support ticket for a refund got denied. Trying again.

Also I feel like the two hour timer makes things worse in a sense. Yes you can get refunds now but it also gives them something to hide behind when the shit really hits the fan like this, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was designed that way.

I want a refund.

"But the policy states.."

Well this game runs poorly and.

"Yes, we know but our policy.."

And the advertising for it is incredibly misleading.

"Have you heard about our policy?"

 

[Tony Iron Man Stark]

My Steam support ticket for a refund got denied. Trying again.

Also I feel like the two hour timer makes things worse in a sense. Yes you can get refunds now but it also gives them something to hide behind when the shit really hits the fan like this, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was designed that way.

I want a refund.

"But the policy states.."

Well this game runs poorly and.

"Yes, we know but our policy.."

And the advertising for it is incredibly misleading.

"Have you heard about our policy?"

This is through manual support ticket?

 

[Tranqueris]

This is through manual support ticket?

Yep, they just replied with "you don't qualify" and pasted the refund policy link.

The other part I put in that post was just me showing how the time limit in the policy can screw people by design.

 

[Nzyme32]

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-rights-for-consumers-when-buying-digital-content

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/can-i-get-a-refund-on-a-digital-download

Key changes include:
this will be the first time that consumers have had clear legal rights for digital content - specifically, the Act gives consumers the right to repair or replacement of faulty digital content such as online films and games, music downloads, and ebooks
a 30 day time period to return faulty goods and get a full refund, the law was previously unclear on how long this period should last.

After 30 days, retailers have one opportunity to repair or replace any goods and the consumer can choose whether they want the goods to be repaired or replaced - if the attempt at a repair or replacement is unsuccessful, the consumer can then claim a refund or a price reduction if they wish to keep the product.

Edit: October 2015 saw the Consumer Rights Act come into play. This covers physical and digital good including good as a service such as hire purchase etc.

You get equal right on BOTH physical an digital goods. You get 30 days to claim a full refund if the goods are faulty, not fit for purpose or misdescribed.

Oh! Very nice, wasn't aware of this. It doesn't apply to "refunds" for any circumstance though.

- It does count for faulty / broken digital content, but not "for any reason at all" as steam does in 14 days. Arguing technical reasons should work, but importantly Valve should add a clear section for this for UK folk
- Consumers being able to challenge terms and conditions which are not fair or are hidden in the small print (this is also good)

 

[VlaudTheImpaler]

My Steam support ticket for a refund got denied. Trying again.

Also I feel like the two hour timer makes things worse in a sense. Yes you can get refunds now but it also gives them something to hide behind when the shit really hits the fan like this, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was designed that way.

I want a refund.

"But the policy states.."

Well this game runs poorly and.

"Yes, we know but our policy.."

And the advertising for it is incredibly misleading.

"Have you heard about our policy?"

This is why it's important to be consistent. If enough people are voicing their complaint it is going to light a fire under steam to reach out to HG and get a response or something. They will feel the heat. They have already put that warning message up in the steam description.

 

[Gator86]

Oh, definitely agree that devs should be given a chance to fix games, but that is only fair if the consumer has plenty of time to refund the game if it's still broken afterwards, no matter how much they played it in between.

No, the onus should be on devs to release a working product at launch. If your product doesn't work, you deserve no favors or courtesy. Release working shit if you're asking for money. They deserve zero days to fix it.

 

[benicillin]

This is why it's important to be consistent. If enough people are voicing their complaint it is going to light a fire under steam to reach out to HG and get a response or something. They will feel the heat. They have already put that warning message up in the steam description.

They put the warning message up because places like Reddit and NeoGAF are floating the idea that there's some special No Man's Sky recall taking place when it's really just Steam's basic refund policy.

 

[VlaudTheImpaler]

They put the warning message up because places like Reddit and NeoGAF are floating the idea that there's some special No Man's Sky recall taking place when it's really just Steam's basic refund policy.

Which means they are feeling the heat...

 

[Sacul64GC]

I tracked him down in order to talk some sense into him but ran away after I caught a glance of his room...

What movie is this?

 

[Speely]

Which means they are feeling the heat...

Thermal protection falling.

 

[benicillin]

Which means they are feeling the heat...

They aren't though. Steam isn't going to reach out to HG because they're 'feeling the heat.' Steam doesn't care. Steam just doesn't want people spreading misinformation about refund exceptions that don't actually exist.

 

[VlaudTheImpaler]

What movie is this?

One of the paranormal activity movies I presume.

 

[LostDonkey]

Thermal protection falling.

 

[Venom Fox]

Oh! Very nice, wasn't aware of this. It doesn't apply to "refunds" for any circumstance though.

- It does count for faulty / broken digital content, but not "for any reason at all" as steam does in 14 days. Arguing technical reasons should work, but importantly Valve should add a clear section for this for UK folk
- Consumers being able to challenge terms and conditions which are not fair or are hidden in the small print (this is also good)

It's really hard to grasp it all tbh but I edited my post with clarifications. It seems like you can only get a refund to the store wallet.

 

[Trojan]

This whole debacle has got to force some altering of refund policies, and hopefully is enough to bring Sony and Microsoft into the arena. It's about time they had a legit documented policy regarding refunds.

That being said, it's going to be really tough to define a rock-solid refund policy with something as complicated as current video games. And I'm pretty confident that Valve/Sony/Microsoft/etc are not going to have a refund policy that is not clearly documented. If they don't, it will be a nightmare for those companies trying to sort through those requests and validate on a case-by-case basis.

So how do you do that? Time limit is the easy answer that's at least a good start for Valve, but that will not hold up in cases like these that have severe game defects dozens of hours in. Each user of a game, particularly on PC, can have a wildly different experience from the same game so trying to craft a refund policy incorporating "your experience" would be insanely difficult.

I could see refund policies where there is still a short term window for any reason you don't like it, but a separate long-term window that is reserved for more formal complaints relating to technical issues. I could see some process where a consumer would fill out a more detailed form stating the issue in detail and then if it can be shown by the consumer a refund could be processed. These companies would probably also need to include verbiage that gives developers X amount of time to patch major issues.

Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

 

[VlaudTheImpaler]

They aren't though. Steam isn't going to reach out to HG because they're 'feeling the heat.' Steam doesn't care. Steam just doesn't want people spreading misinformation about refund exceptions that don't actually exist.

I don't think you understand what feeling the heat means...

They obviously have been getting enough requests so that they needed to put that message up. Other games that have been a mess have done the same thing and didn't have websites spreading the miss info that you mentioned. Even if it was because of the sites it is still something that has come of people being fed up and trying to do something about it (creating heat). HG definitely sees and feels this and if you don't think they've taken a hit due to people asking for refunds then I don't know what to tell you.

 

[BouncyFrag]

I foresee a tense day at work Monday morning for HG.

 

[Xisiqomelir]

Alright, whatever it is Ultimatum Games is making, I'm out.

Thanks for investigating.

Every scumfuck is toppling out of the woodwork now.

https://twitter.com/UltimatumUK

Hmm, looks like Shahid is doing a lot of the development in Malaysia. I'm actually visiting KL tomorrow, I wonder where the studio is.

 

[Speely]

This whole debacle has got to force some altering of refund policies, and hopefully is enough to bring Sony and Microsoft into the arena. It's about time they had a legit documented policy regarding refunds.

That being said, it's going to be really tough to define a refund policy with something as complicated as current video games. And I'm pretty confident that Valve/Sony/Microsoft/etc are not going to have a refund policy that is not clearly documented. If they don't, it will be a nightmare for those companies trying to sort through those requests and validate on a case-by-case basis.

So how do you do that? Time limit is the easy answer that's at least a good start for Valve, but that will not hold up in cases like these that have severe game defects dozens of hours in. Each user of a game, particularly on PC, can have a wildly different experience from the same game so trying to craft a refund policy incorporating "your experience" would be insanely difficult.

I could see refund policies where there is still a short term window for any reason you don't like it, but a separate long-term window that is reserved for more formal complaints relating to technical issues. I could see some process where a consumer would fill out a more detailed form stating the issue in detail and then if it can be shown by the consumer a refund could be processed. These companies would probably also need to include verbiage that gives developers X amount of time to patch major issues.

Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

You bring up some good points. It's crazy to think about how many aspects of releasing a game that the NMS debacle has now put front and center. From developer-to-consumer communication to hype/preordering vs being sensible in regard to refund policies. There are points to be made on both sides of the above issues, and it will indeed be interesting to see how the market is affected by this, if at all.

Thanks for your post. It's a nice break from the madness

 

[Venom Fox]

I foresee a tense day at work Monday morning for HG.

I forsee the staff returning to work like "where's Sean"?

Last confirmed sighting...

 

[Alienfan]

I totally support refunds for people who can't get the game working. But people getting refunds just because they don't like the game though - not sure I agree with that. Maybe next time don't preorder and wait for reviews, it's really as simple as that. It's the same for people that go to midnight screenings of films, you take a risk in not knowing anything about the quality product, but that's on you and not the developers.

 

[heliosRAzi]

But people getting refunds just because they don't like the game though - not sure I agree with that.

Who is doing that?

 

[Nicktendo86]

I foresee a tense day at work Monday morning for HG.

It's a bank holiday in the UK on Monday so they will probably still be down the pub.

 

[Ollie Pooch]

I totally support refunds for people who can't get the game working. But people getting refunds just because they don't like the game though - not sure I agree with that. Maybe next time don't preorder and wait for reviews, it's really as simple as that. It's the same for people that go to midnight screenings of films, you take a risk in not knowing anything about the quality product, but that's on you and not the developers.

It's not even a question of 'quality' - even if that is lacking - it's a question of the dev saying things were in the game and they're not. It's black and white. People are only refunding now because they only just found out they could. I'd wager most would have got one a week or two back (i would have) if I knew PSN would do it.

 

[freenudemacusers]

Who is doing that?

they know who they are

 

[Speely]

I totally support refunds for people who can't get the game working. But people getting refunds just because they don't like the game though - not sure I agree with that. Maybe next time don't preorder and wait for reviews, it's really as simple as that. It's the same for people that go to midnight screenings of films, you take a risk in not knowing anything about the quality product, but that's on you and not the developers.

Nope. When a developer offers preorder incentives, this argument doesn't fly. And besides, the onus is on the person falsely advertising a product, not the people who believe them. Con artists are still con artists whether or not their dupes are clueless.

Sean Murray lied to consumers. Full stop. It doesn't matter how savvy the consumers were or weren't. They sold a product that does not exist as it was sold.

Should consumers be more aware? Of course. But laying the blame on them for failing to be so is straight up victim blaming. The fault is Hello Games' alone. The rest of us are just perhaps guilty of being flawed consumers.

 

[Deadbeat]

they know who they are

Ah yes. Them.

 

[Speely]

they know who they are

Haha. This thread has all the things.

 

[heliosRAzi]

they know who they are

We will only know when they complain about their systems bricking.

 

[freenudemacusers]

Ah yes. Them.

no not them; them *points*

 

[Ollie Pooch]

Nope. When a developer offers preorder incentives, this argument doesn't fly. And besides, the onus is on the person falsely advertising a product, not the people who believe them. Con artists are still con artists whether or not their dupes are clueless.

Sean Murray lied to consumers. Full stop. It doesn't matter how savvy the consumers were or weren't. They sold a product that does not exist as it was sold.

Should consumers be more aware? Of course. But laying the blame on them for failing to be so is straight up victim blaming. The fault is Hello Games' alone. The rest of us are just perhaps guilty of being flawed consumers.

The one that gets me is his suggestion of easter eggs and hidden content to create 'cool moments' but with the disclaimer that too many people are playing right now for it to actually work. Ugh. He never elaborated on that either.

 

[CaLe]

I wonder how Sean feels. Honest question. Must not be easy being him right now. I also wonder how much some of the stuff he said were planned but had to be cut for some reason.

I don't know man. I'm torn between calling him a liar and just not saying anything because I wasn't in his shoes. I also miss my 60$. A lot.

 

[diablos991]

I wonder how Sean feels. Honest question. Must not be easy being him right now. I also wonder how much some of the stuff he said were planned but had to be cut for some reason.

I don't know man. I'm torn between calling him a liar and just not saying anything because I wasn't in his shoes. I also miss my 60$. A lot.

He put himself here. If the PR was managed better we wouldn't be having these threads.

 

[CaLe]

He put himself here. If the PR was managed better we wouldn't be having these threads.

Yeah, the "no response whatsoever" thing is kind of weird. I don't remember any developer doing that in recent memory. Maybe I have short term memory...

 

[Rhaknar]

I wonder how Sean feels. Honest question. Must not be easy being him right now. I also wonder how much some of the stuff he said were planned but had to be cut for some reason.

I don't know man. I'm torn between calling him a liar and just not saying anything because I wasn't in his shoes. I also miss my 60$. A lot.

Like this

 

[sflufan]

Yeah, the "no response whatsoever" thing is kind of weird. I don't remember any developer doing that in recent memory. Maybe I have short term memory...

As I stated previously, the radio silence is more than likely due to the advice of attorneys.

 

[Alienfan]

It's not even a question of 'quality' - even if that is lacking - it's a question of the dev saying things were in the game and they're not. It's black and white. People are only refunding now because they only just found out they could. I'd wager most would have got one a week or two back (i would have) if I knew PSN would do it.

That's where it gets confusing. Advertising vs developer communication. Are they the same? These are our plans vs this is actually in the game. Considering how malleable game development is, how things are done right up to the last minute anything can change from anncounment to release. You see it with movies as well with reshoots, comic-con panel hype etc. Everything talked about before release are just plans, nothing is guaranteed to be in the final product. The official product description being misleading (ie: has multiplayer in it) are good grounds for refunds, but something the developer said in a interview months and months back, maybe less so. I think hello games should have been more clear, clearing up all of this confusion befeore launch - but what's advertised on the box and steam product description page is exactly what you get.

 

[Valentus]

they know who they are

The bricker knows them too?

 

[CaLe]

Like this

LOL !

As I stated previously, the radio silence is more than likely due to the advice of attorneys.

To avoid false promises ? Makes sense. I wonder if the studio is done for. The only way to redeem themselves is to support the game for years to come.

 

[Sarcastico]

Like this

Hopefully all those refunds can turn those bills into smaller denominations.

 

[lt519]

I wonder how Sean feels. Honest question. Must not be easy being him right now. I also wonder how much some of the stuff he said were planned but had to be cut for some reason.

I don't know man. I'm torn between calling him a liar and just not saying anything because I wasn't in his shoes. I also miss my 60$. A lot.

I'm sure he's sleeping just fine on his bed of millions in revenue.

But seriously nobody would want to see their game shit on like this, it's probably tearing him apart and I wouldn't be surprised if he left the industry because of it. It's a shame because what is there and what is working is really damned impressive. Just needed to promise less and spend a month in beta to get the bugs ironed out (although a beta would have destroyed most the sales).

 

[CaLe]

I'm sure he's sleeping just fine on his bed of millions in revenue.

But seriously nobody would want to see their game shit on like this, it's probably tearing him apart and I wouldn't be surprised if he left the industry because of it. It's a shame because what is there and what is working is really damned impressive. Just needed to promise less and spend a month in beta to get the bugs ironed out (although a beta would have destroyed most the sales).

I have a feeling that's why we didn't get a beta. They knew the state of the game and the impact it would have on sales.

Man, I'm done pre-ordering. I learned my lesson.

The real question is: what impact will this negative reception have on the current employees. A mass exodus is totally possible; those that truly believe in the game in the long run might stay, but I have a feeling that won't be the general consensus within the team. Good luck with recruiting efforts too...

 

[Ollie Pooch]

That's where it gets confusing. Advertising vs developer communication. Are they the same? These are our plans vs this is actually in the game. Considering how malleable game development is, how things are done right up to the last minute anything can change from anncounment to release. You see it with movies as well with reshoots, comic-con panel hype etc. Everything talked about before release are just plans, nothing is guaranteed to be in the final product. The official product description being misleading (ie: has multiplayer in it) are good grounds for refunds, but something the developer said in a interview months and months back, maybe less so. I think hello games should have been more clear, clearing up all of this confusion befeore launch - but what's advertised on the box and steam product description page is exactly what you get.

I completely disagree and firmly believe the Steam page etc can't be taken in isolation - gamers were very aware of this game for years leading to release. He sold it as something very grand and different to multiple outlets. Barely any of the stuff he said is in the game is in it! No physics, no multiplayer, no 'factions' with any depth, no hacking, no naming of ships, no different ship capabilities or customisation. This has been covered ad nauseum by now.

I'd argue the video on Steam from E3 2014 is downright deceptive. It suggests human (or AI at the very least) flight companions and abilities, animal behaviour that doesn't exist. It shows buildings and locations that aren't even in the game!

He can't use the transparency of Twitter and interviews and tv appearance to push the 'engaged and open developer' thing and then back away form those claims and not expect some kind of blowback.

 

[VlaudTheImpaler]

As I stated previously, the radio silence is more than likely due to the advice of attorneys.

Is there really any evidence for this?

I mean it's still on Sean and the team. Ultimately the attorneys aren't holding them back from doing the right thing, Even if we knew this to be the case consumers should still do what they are doing atm and push for answers.

 

[QisTopTier]

I wonder if that story of one of the team members selling their house to help fund the studio because he wanted a fresh start and he used to work at EA so it was "blood money" was true?

Think he will sell his new house?

 

[Chev]

They obviously have been getting enough requests so that they needed to put that message up

Or, simply, enough sites have been wrongly reporting about a refund exception that Steam need to correct them.

 

[blastprocessor]

I wonder how Sean feels. Honest question.

If pressure was down to Sony to release, Sean and the four other shareholders of Hello Games are probably feeling grim. I know l would be as the company name has been tarnished.

Who knows maybe all will be forgotten when the game is stabalised and DLC provided for free; least they can do to clear the mess they are in.

 

[NoFaceNico]

I have a feeling that's why we didn't get a beta. They knew the state of the game and the impact it would have on sales.

Man, I'm done pre-ordering. I learned my lesson.

I'd say that's highly likely. And remember the tweets?

Yeah sure, don't go out and spoil yourself with any research to find out if the game is what we've been selling it as. Figure that part out after we have your money.

 

[HariKari]

I wonder if that story of one of the team members selling their house to help fund the studio because he wanted a fresh start and he used to work at EA so it was "blood money" was true?

Think he will sell his new house?

At this point I wouldn't be surprised if they fixed the technical issues, then the team took what money there was and disbanded.

 

[VlaudTheImpaler]

Or, simply, enough sites have been wrongly reporting about a refund exception that Steam need to correct them.

Even if it was that it would still be something to come of this whole thing hence the heat... They definitely see it. Unless you think they don't care?