Punished Miku
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Boy this takes me back to ancient NeoGAF lol.
Your views on the Final Fantasy games?
- Thread starter Cutty Flam
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Red Rackham's Revenge
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Some thoughts based on memory for FFXII:
- Ivalice is my fav setting in any FF
- Gambits got a lot of hate but I liked them
- Monster hunts were awesome
- The slider was pulled a little closer to traditional and away from wacky
- I don't remember if it was before or after xbox achievements, but I remember I loved the Sky Pirate's Den at the time and thought it was so cool to have trophies for in-game achievements.
- Best design - characters, the world, costumes, etc.
royox
Member
FFXII army, GET THE FUCK ITT!!!!!
Summoning a strong portion of the FFXII crew and other FF experts in search for answers about FFXII
What makes FFXII stand out? And can it be mentioned along with the greatness of FFVI through FFX, in the same breath? Can it be called a masterpiece, or is it just short of?
The game is on sale for $24.99 or 50% off right now. Last time it was on sale I passed it up, but apparently it's really good?
Bash the game or praise the game, either is fine. What are your true thoughts on FFXII and how great this game is, if you don't mind sharing?
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Oh wow I'm in that list too.
As I never had a PS2 I never got to play FFXII at release and the only I knew about it was "single Player MMO, no more turns, jobs are shit, where are my summons, gambits are shit" and the best of them "medieval Star Wars".
3 Years ago, in FFXIV's Stormblood Expansion we received a whole set of alliance raids based on Ivalice so it got me interested on playing FFXII HD edition on my PS4. What I found:
-Single Player MMO but no diferent of what years later Bioware would do with Dragon Age Origins. So It was just FF fans bashing a FF for going out of the standard formula.
-No turns: A total lie. The combat system is basically ATB like FFVII and the diference is that you can move around the enemies while you select new actions.
-Jobs: I played the Zordiac version wich I understand completely changed the job system of the original game into something not horrible.
-Summons: just not the ones we were used to after 10 years of FF.
-Gambits: as a lover of Dragon Age Origins, I loved the gambit system and it's options...but I would understand a younger myself pre-Dragon Age hating it.
But even if I liked the graphics and the gameplay I could't play more than 20 hours of that game. The story felt super boring (edit: actually...cannot remember what it was about AT ALL) and the characters...i had the feeling the whole party is a party of Side Characters without a lead. Most of the people joined because of reasons.
Couldn't finish the game but I guess it was more because I got bored at the story and the grindy gameplay than anything else. I remember having to grind some levels at every zone cause the enemies could be brutal, maybe that made me lose interest on the story as between every bit of story I had to invest 2h of brainless fighting monsters and MMO-sidequesting. Maybe one day I will give it another chance without my past grindy mentality (DO ALL THE SIDEQUESTS!!!) and I will like it more. I absolutely saw potential on this game and the way it was done but it's totally a game of his age...PS2 when we were young and didn't care about lack of save points and games being 100h long cause we had time enough for all games.
pd: the 20-30h I played of FFXII felt at least better than the unfinished piece of shit of FFXV.
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Imru’ al-Qays
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FFXII is a flawed masterpiece. It represents a path not taken by Squenix after they forced Sakaguchi out of Final Fantasy, one that would have seen the series emphasize mature storytelling and a non-linear world. Sakaguchi himself clearly treated Matsuno as his protégé, and I think that this path would have helped FF maintain some of its relevance if they'd followed it.
Squenix under Wada decided to double down on the adolescent anime style that the anti-Sakaguchi devs had been pursuing with VIII and X (and especially X-2), however, and recent installments like XIII and XV are as a result repulsive to anyone with good taste and a brain.
The main flaw with XII is that Squenix forced Matsuno out at some point in development. As a result the first half or two-thirds of the story is much more coherent and skillfully told than the ending, which degenerates pretty sharply. The presence of non-entity Vaan as "main character" is also the result of Squenix's meddling - Matsuno's original plan had been for Basch to be the main character, which would have resulted in a much better story.
What Squenix wasn't able to sabotage is the huge scope of the world. I think XII may have the largest, most impressively detailed world of any Final Fantasy ever. It's certainly a change of pace from the hyper-linearity of X and XIII. In some ways it was trying to do an open world RPG on the PS2, sort of like Dragon Quest VIII at the same time.
Punished Miku
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You already hinted at this, but FFXIII is basically a spiritual sequel to FFX, which was created while Sakaguchi was still there. Nothing about it is anti-Sakaguchi. You know he was there during FFVII too right? Anime is not some anti-thesis to Sakaguchi, and suggesting that it is the case is rewriting history a bit. FFIX was also pretty anime as well, and more childlike than anything in FFXIII. FFVIII also is fairly anime-esque. The Last Story is also pretty anime-ish.
If you don't think the FFX team would have a greenlight to try their hand at a new game after the success of FFX, you're kidding yourself. What hobbled FFXIII was PS3's development architecture being extremely difficult to work with (Valve famously said they were not putting anything on PS3 for a while, and eventually changed their mind). This was also happening at the same time that they were developing HD art assets for the first time, and dealing with the explosion in team sizes and budgets that came with it. This hobbled most Japanese developers for that entire generation, and that was when the western game developers shone the most, during 360 era.
In reality, its actually remarkable that FFXIII came out in the state that it did. To this day, its one of the most visually impressive games on the whole system, and looks stunning in 4K, had basically zero glitches, and also had one of the best and most mature OSTs in the entire series. The story is actually extremely dark and mature. The battle system is an evolution of FFXII, with the gambits being auto-programmed into the stances/jobs, keeping the strategy from XII but giving it a bit more player participation and action feel.
Then, FFXIV collapsed under the weight of its own development and launched in a broken state on PS3, as their first HD MMO. Then FFVersusXIII was so troubled in development that it couldn't even get off the ground without a complete relaunch and didn't even make it on PS3 at all, and had to get a new director. Even after skipping a console generation, FFXV launched in rough shape and didn't generate enough fan interest to even maintain DLC releases.
The only thing that even kept SQEX alive at that point were FFXIII sequels that were developed on PS3 with difficult architecture, on time and on budget. The FFXIII team saved SQEX during one of their darkest periods. Now that is the team putting together FFVII Remake as well. It's basically their best team.
Matsuno failed to complete production as director of FFXII. Wikipedia says that key staff left the project during development and he resigned. Nomura also couldn't even complete FFVersusXIII.
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Imru’ al-Qays
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Sakaguchi had very little to do with VIII or X. This is well-documented. He was majorly involved in VII and was obviously in charge of IX. I specifically said that VIII, X, and XIII have an adolescent anime style: these are lighthearted, melodramatic stories for teenagers. VII is much darker and is tonally most similar to VI, which Sakaguchi was also heavily involved with. IX is more similar to the fairy tale narrative style of Dragon Quest or indeed earlier FFs like IV.
If you can't see a major tonal shift from VI-VII-IX to VIII-X-XIII I don't know what to tell you.
What hobbled XIII was that without Sakaguchi at the helm Squenix has no fucking talent left. Nomura and co can't write or think. They're fucking idiots who've driven the series into the dirt by catering to the worst elements of its fanbase.
FFVII Remake is disgusting.
Matsuno was forced out by Squenix because he was resisting their attempts to shoehorn teenage anime bullshit into his game.
Punished Miku
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Do you have any source for that?
Imru’ al-Qays
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Vaan and Penelo and the last third of XII compared to the first two-thirds and literally every other game Matsuno has ever directed.
Punished Miku
Gaslighter Pro: 16.7 Fireflops
I'm talking about any kind of source claiming Matsuno was forced out and didn't resign like it says on wikipedia (with a source).
This claims it was literally Sakaguchi's company that caused him to throw a temper tantrum and refuse to work on his own game. Matsuno notably didn't go to Mistwalker by the way, and actually worked with Level 5 instead and then did work for SQEX also.
Wikipedia said:
FFXII producer steps down
Final Fantasy XII stars a princess named Ashe, who teams up with Vaan, an urchin, and several other characters to protect their homeland of Ivalice against invaders.
web.archive.org
Changes to Final Fantasy XII Staff - IGN
Final Fantasy XII has been thrust back into the spotlight following its appearance at the Square Enix Party in Japan over the weekend. And with the new appearance has come some news of a change in the development team that's hard at work on the game.
web.archive.org
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Imru’ al-Qays
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Lol he was "temperamental" presumably because Square Enix had forced out his mentor, the guy who created the fucking series. It seems like he wasn't the only one, since a bunch of members of his team followed Sakaguchi out the door.
It's Japan, when you're fired you "resign."
Punished Miku
Gaslighter Pro: 16.7 Fireflops
And yet he never worked with Sakaguchi at his new company. He did go back and work with SQEX more than once after that.
Regardless, abandoning a mainline FF project halfway through like that is weak as hell. His output after that wasn't stellar in any way either. He made multiple bad decisions.
And you completely ignore all the other legitimate points I brought up about the PS3 era of game development across virtually all Japanese developers because you just want to fixate on your Sakaguchi narrative.
There is no guarantee Sakaguchi would have led them any better during the HD development transition era. He almost bankrupted the entire company and forced a merger while just making a 2 hour movie.
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SlimeGooGoo
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Imru’ al-Qays
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He was taken off the project by Squenix.
The PS3 has nothing to do with why XIII and XV are such bad games. They're bad games because they're narratively incompetent.
This is totally false. Sakaguchi's investment was in CGI technology, Spirits Within was supposed to recoup some of the cost but it was never envisioned that it would recoup all of it. Wada is the one who opportunistically exploited the failure of the movie to oust Sakaguchi and eventually all of Square's competent developers. The company has been lurching from disaster to disaster ever since.
Gunslinger
Member
FF VII for me. Best in the series.
megreotsugua
Banned
FF IX. It was my childhood. Memories of the game still linger with me to this day.
SlimeGooGoo
Banned
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Elysion
Banned
So yesterday I bought FFIX on Switch, and was utterly gobsmacked to find out that it has options to make your party invincible, to always inflict 9999 points of damage, to maximize your level, to automatically learn an ability just by equipping an item, to give you 99999999 Gil, and to turn off random encounters. WTF? These totally remove any kind of challenge from the game!? Yes, I know they're optional, but they're right there in the pause and menu screens, and you can turn them on and off whenever you want, at any point during the game! Why would anyone fight battles, level up, or learn abilities normally if you can just cheat like that?
I could understand if such boost options were available once you've beaten the game, as a NG+ option or something. Or maybe through cheat codes, like in the old days, since this would make it impossible to activate them unless you were actively looking for them. But by making them available just like that, right there in the menu, I'd feel like an idiot if I played the game without those options. Why grind for money or experience if I can just learn abilities or get infinite money at the press of a button? Why explore the world, finish side-quests, or fight any of the game's secret bosses if none of the rewards you receive come even close to the power of those boosts? It's like with fast travel in games like Skyrim: even though I'm a critic of the mechanic, I can't bring myself not to use it if it's offered as an option within the game. Yes, I'm weak like that.
I knew beforehand that those FF remasters had an option to speed up the game, but I had no idea they allowed you to straight up cheat like that. Man, finding out about this really killed my excitement for the game, which I've been looking forward to replaying for the first time in nearly a decade. I assume the other FF remasters (I'm playing on Switch) have the same 'boost' options?
I could understand if such boost options were available once you've beaten the game, as a NG+ option or something. Or maybe through cheat codes, like in the old days, since this would make it impossible to activate them unless you were actively looking for them. But by making them available just like that, right there in the menu, I'd feel like an idiot if I played the game without those options. Why grind for money or experience if I can just learn abilities or get infinite money at the press of a button? Why explore the world, finish side-quests, or fight any of the game's secret bosses if none of the rewards you receive come even close to the power of those boosts? It's like with fast travel in games like Skyrim: even though I'm a critic of the mechanic, I can't bring myself not to use it if it's offered as an option within the game. Yes, I'm weak like that.
I knew beforehand that those FF remasters had an option to speed up the game, but I had no idea they allowed you to straight up cheat like that. Man, finding out about this really killed my excitement for the game, which I've been looking forward to replaying for the first time in nearly a decade. I assume the other FF remasters (I'm playing on Switch) have the same 'boost' options?
SlimeGooGoo
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DonkeyPunchJr
World’s Biggest Weeb
But there is something wrong with those older games. The combat is brain dead simple, repetitive, and time consuming. Most battles can be won by picking "attack" from a menu over and over. Sorry if that hurts your feelings but it's true. You spend hours and hours in battle, most of which are watching your ATB bars fill. You can practically count on one hand the # of battles where you fight an enemy who can actually kill you and where you have to use your brain in order to win.
This is Square Enix acknowledging reality and at least putting a band aid on the problem. By far the worst part of old school JRPGs is the crappy bland combat. They aren't fixing it but at least they're reducing the tedium
SlimeGooGoo
Banned
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DonkeyPunchJr
World’s Biggest Weeb
The point is to do something time consuming, repetitive, with zero challenge where your success is guaranteed? LOL okay well I give you credit for being honest about it at least.
So many people claim to prefer turn-based battles because they're "more strategic" and it's like, don't fool yourself. There's nothing strategic about these games. You're only making the simplest and most obvious decisions. In the rare event you encounter a challenge, your best "strategy" is to grind some levels and upgrade your equipment.
So many people claim to prefer turn-based battles because they're "more strategic" and it's like, don't fool yourself. There's nothing strategic about these games. You're only making the simplest and most obvious decisions. In the rare event you encounter a challenge, your best "strategy" is to grind some levels and upgrade your equipment.
SlimeGooGoo
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SlimeGooGoo
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Cutty Flam
Banned
I'll probably pull the trigger on this game tonight. Between FFVII, FFVIII, FFXII, and FFXIV I can't decide which one will be next to play lol. Will be my second FF game, and they all seem like the perfect second choice in their own ways
If you had to rate the story for all that it's worth, from 0-100 score, what would it be?
Velius
Banned
Notice how XV doesn't give a flying fuck about the boulder you just threw at him, he just keeps going
SlimeGooGoo
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Rat Rage
Member
I play JRGs to relax and have fun, to follow a cool story, listen to some nice music, fight monsters / enemies in a relaxed way, explore and travel interesting worlds and manage my party of characters, to see them get stronger, all while feasting my eyes on some beautiful artstyles / graphics.
JRPGs are a therefore a more relaxed, slow gaming experiences thanks to turn based battles / a passive gameplay style where you don't play yourself but give commands instead. It's not the point to do something "time consuming" or repetitive, unless our main reason for playing JRPGs is the actual grinding; in that case the games would be extra time consuming and repetitive, but that itself is not the main reason why most people play or like JRPGs I believe.
I also don't think there is no challenge to playing JRPGs. It depends on how you play. If you don't excessively grind - which I think nobody should - the challenge will be there (but of course not an overwhelming one), and depending on the game, sometimes the challenge will be there no matter what you do.
Anyway, in a sense JRPGs are more stategic than other game types like FPS', Platformers or Racing Games. I think that is what people mean when they say they're "more stategic", that's all; they don't mean to say they're "super strategic and challenging". JRPs provide a distinct gaming flavor / gaming experience that people just like, and turn-based battles are an essential key ingredient in forming that flavor / experience.
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MagnesG
Banned
Ok now I'm offended. Are you referring to games like Bravely Default, Octopath, Fire Emblem, SMT, Xenoblade, FF tactics and their clones or the usual mainline FF/DQ?
DonkeyPunchJr
World’s Biggest Weeb
I actually agree with some of what you said. I don't want every single random battle to be some challenging strategic engagement that can kill me if I make the wrong choice. I accept that lots of times I'm going to be fighting some grunt enemies that pose no threat to me.
But for the love of god, those battles should at least be as quick and unobtrusive as possible. Give me fast loading (or better yet, no separate battle screen), minimal dead time between actions, fast yet satisfying animations, quick (or no) victory animation/summary screen, "auto battle" option, etc.
I think FF XII handled this really well. Under the hood it works very similar to ATB. But now you can automate the routine simple stuff that makes up like 90% of battles like "use cure if someone has low HP", "use Fira on the enemy that's weak against fire", "attack the enemy with the lowest HP", etc.
I'm talking about the traditional Dragon Quest style/ FF ATB style battle systems.
SRPGs are a completely different thing. For one, you have to move and position your characters around. There's actually a risk/reward calculation because if you charge in and fail to kill the enemy first, you leave yourself vulnerable to a counter attack. And you can do stuff like try to lure the enemy into a disadvantageous position, or use terrain to your advantage,
Plus SRPGs are based around a smaller number of large-scale conflicts, each on unique terrain and facing a unique lineup of enemies. Not like typical JRPGs where you will fight the same group of enemies a dozen times in a dungeon.
iQuasarLV
Member
Well I can say that compared to FF:Tactics they are night and day in the story telling department. While FF12 had a shallow story I will say the gameplay more than made up for it. Especially the x2/x4 time factor in the Zodiac Age version. Definitely want to go with that version.
Imru’ al-Qays
Member
Agreed. If you compare FFXII to Matsuno's earlier work (Tactics Ogre, Final Fantasy Tactics, Vagrant Story), you can pick out specific scenes that seem to very clearly bear his trademark style - particularly those concerning political intrigue and the Judges in scenes like .
But this stuff never really goes anywhere. The game sets up the background to a grand political narrative, but in the end it's clear that without Matsuno to guide them the team had no idea how to stick the landing.
TheInfamousKira
Reseterror Resettler
FFXII army, GET THE FUCK ITT!!!!!
Summoning a strong portion of the FFXII crew and other FF experts in search for answers about FFXII
What makes FFXII stand out? And can it be mentioned along with the greatness of FFVI through FFX, in the same breath? Can it be called a masterpiece, or is it just short of?
The game is on sale for $24.99 or 50% off right now. Last time it was on sale I passed it up, but apparently it's really good?
Bash the game or praise the game, either is fine. What are your true thoughts on FFXII and how great this game is, if you don't mind sharing?
C Count of Monte Sawed-Off @fatty
Well, I just now saw this, and it's probably been answered better before, but to me FFXII stands out for the following reasons: the plot (while it takes backseat in the middle to end and probably felt the effects of Matsuno's early departure) respects your intelligence and feels a bit more grounded than typical JRPG (or even FF) plots tend to be.
The gambit system is a very cool battle system that simultaneously feels like a blend of different elements of real time, turn based and strategy based RPGs. In terms of functionality and just how well it works, it's easily a gen ahead of when it was released.
Same for the overworld and quests. Mark hunting is great, grinding doesn't feel too bad with the gambit, the kill chains and the speed up option available in the remaster. The Quickening system is a very logical progression of Desperation Attacks in FFVI, meaning it gives you a chance to survive but doesn't instantly clean the field like Limit Breaks mostly do. It's overall a very fairly built, beautiful, mature, well functioning world and game. Definitely recommend.
cartman414
Member
It had a LOT to do with it. PS3 development was notoriously difficult.
The only game Atlus made for it was Catherine. No SMT/Persona that gen.
TheInfamousKira
Reseterror Resettler
PS3 and in house engine were a perfect storm for development hell. With that said, I like XIII and XV, but their highs are significantly lower than most of the lows of the classics.
cartman414
Member
Suffice it to say the PS3/360 gen was the beginning of the end for exclusives. Had to recoup them high dev costs.
Imru’ al-Qays
Member
The fact that the PS3 was notoriously difficult to develop for had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that XIII and XV were bad games on a narrative level.
cartman414
Member
That depends on the narrative being the prime influence, and not it being shaped by development.
SlimeGooGoo
Banned
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TheInfamousKira
Reseterror Resettler
I'd say the two face opposite problems. The lore in XIII was pretty interesting to me (never got the confusion over names, but people are different, I guess) but the plot itself was kind of full of tired anime archetypes and didn't utilize it's potential to the fullest.
Whereas XV I felt had a pretty good story (albeit spread out over six different types of media) but almost no focus on the lore, which was a shame considering how hard they pushed "a fantasy based on reality," shtick during the Versus XIII days.
Whereas XV I felt had a pretty good story (albeit spread out over six different types of media) but almost no focus on the lore, which was a shame considering how hard they pushed "a fantasy based on reality," shtick during the Versus XIII days.
There are two great
FF6 and FF12
They excel i most areas imo
some pretty good
FF7, FF9, FF5
there a quite a lot of shitty ones (music usually good though)
FF8, FF10, FF13, FF15, FF1-4, FF7 remake
dont know/care about the mmos
FF11, FF14
oh.. the last great one came in 2006 - been pretty shitty since then
FF6 and FF12
They excel i most areas imo
some pretty good
FF7, FF9, FF5
there a quite a lot of shitty ones (music usually good though)
FF8, FF10, FF13, FF15, FF1-4, FF7 remake
dont know/care about the mmos
FF11, FF14
oh.. the last great one came in 2006 - been pretty shitty since then
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Cutty Flam
Banned
Final Fantasy Community |OT| "We live not to forget our past, but to learn from it!"
Welcome Heroes of Light and Warriors of Darkness to GAF's Final Fantasy Community thread. This thread is designed as a catch-all to discuss anything and everything within the franchise from music, games, toys, and more. A few things to note: 1.) Let's try to avoid endless negativity and...
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arvfab
Final Fantasy Community |OT| "We live not to forget our past, but to learn from it!"
Welcome Heroes of Light and Warriors of Darkness to GAF's Final Fantasy Community thread. This thread is designed as a catch-all to discuss anything and everything within the franchise from music, games, toys, and more. A few things to note: 1.) Let's try to avoid endless negativity and...
You have just been summoned to this thread by the maniacal Mario Party sorcerer. The time has come, that I speak again with the FF Godz of old for these reasons
1) To invite others to discuss Final Fantasy in general in the Final Fantasy Community |OT|
2) To ask (those who have played it) about Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles and their overall impressions of the game. How is Final Fantasy: The Crystal Chronicles, if you've played it? Are the Crystal Chronicle games all fairly solid games, like the mainline FF games?
3) Final Fantasy XVI is going to compete head to head with BOTW's sequel for Game of the Year (GOTY) in 2022, guaranteed
4) One Piece = GOAT story
5) CHAOS
ArtemisClydeFrog
Banned
Final Fantasy Community |OT| "We live not to forget our past, but to learn from it!"
Welcome Heroes of Light and Warriors of Darkness to GAF's Final Fantasy Community thread. This thread is designed as a catch-all to discuss anything and everything within the franchise from music, games, toys, and more. A few things to note: 1.) Let's try to avoid endless negativity and...www.neogaf.com
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