I understand where you're coming from but not all fine art is good art, not all movies are good art, not all music is good art. Games have already blurred the definition of "game" and the richest examples of those games aren't commercially available, they're experiments. I wouldn't expect a commercial industry to start focusing on games that are good art.
Will gaming ever be an art form?
- Thread starter Calmine
- Start date
I understand where you're coming from but not all fine art is good art, not all movies are good art, not all music is good art. Games have already blurred the definition of "game" and the richest examples of those games aren't commercially available, they're experiments. I wouldn't expect a commercial industry to start focusing on games that are good art.
J
Jotamide
Unconfirmed Member
I don't care as long as I have fun playing.
Yep.
Aaron-Lagann
Banned
Whether or not is is is irrelevant to me. I enjoy playing games. Cannot care whether people consider them art or not.
ShinMaruku
Member
That's because the industry doesn't care. They only use that label when it nets them money.
Not really relevant but that's not actually true. Until the Italian Renaissance the people of the time that we now look back and call artists were considered to craftsmen. The people who built the walls and ceilings were no more or less important than the people working on the 12,000 square foot of fresco on the inside of the building.
The same also applied for the work they did.
It really was the Renaissance that changed that, it elevated the work above the work of craftsmen.
Apoleptica
Banned
Gaming is an activity, not art. A game itself is art. And honestly why does anyone care, what difference does it make what people believe about games or gaming.
Trigonometrize.
Member
You can find art on the cover of the box you get the video game in, let alone the game itself.
I think we're coming to an agreement here, and I agree that not everything produced in these mediums is great. But that mostly comes down to the artist's skill, and not the limitations of the medium. Games are still in an immature phase where the boundaries and possibilities afforded by the medium are constantly being pushed, discovered, and redefined. I just don't personally believe we're there yet.
And your comment about the commercialization is absolutely true and holding games back. Although that could go into another discussion about the way the AAA industry has focused tested too much to a singular demographic that makes any risks dangerous. I would argue that indies that are starting to fill these niches that are being left ignored, and making huge money, would show there's plenty of money for different types of games sitting on the table because the AAA industry is too focused on what it knows to explore what's possible. Though we're starting to see it with Ubisoft creating the UbiArt games and Grow Home, and EA with it's various little projects. I'm hopeful, but cautiously optimistic.
no, That's like asking is baseball an art of basketball. They are games, toys for children that adults decided to co-op and take over. Doesn't change they aren't art, they aren't movies, or TV shows despite what the gaming media and devs keep trying to make us believe.
Im not going to deny their entertainment value, but you'll never mention "The Last of Us", with Citizen Kane or any of Hitchcock s work.
Im not going to deny their entertainment value, but you'll never mention "The Last of Us", with Citizen Kane or any of Hitchcock s work.
FrenchToastDisciple
Member
Art forms are created when people treat them as art forms and come to expect value out of them that transcend feelings of mere enjoyment or diversion.
Novels were once considered trifling, well, novelities, in comparison to poetry, schlock for foolish women who wanted easy stories. Then people started taking them seriously as art forms, writing essays about them, analyzing them through close reading and other literary criticism and now they're as entrenched in the realm of high culture as classical music or classical poetry. All other "high art" has undergone a similar process where it started as entertainment for the average person until people started actually analyzing it intensely with the expectation that it will conform to some sort of artistic standards.
This process isn't inevitable though. It requires a dedicated community of critics and creators that insist on pushing mediums to new levels of human insight, insist that creations hold up to close examination and reward soulful, whole hearted and intense levels of engagement with equal levels of unveiled insight on the human experience and the systems and structures we've created. Of course, just like other mediums regarded as "art," there will always be a place for entertainment in the equation, but enough people have to expect more than entertainment from games until we get the mainstream critical mass capable of reaching a "yeah they're art" consensus.
So, short answer, probably, but games being considered art requires us to consistently regard them as such and demand the same depth of craft, ingenuity, and genius we demand out of our established artistic mediums. It's on us. Art isn't something something either is or isn't. It's something something becomes when we think of it with certain expectations.
Novels were once considered trifling, well, novelities, in comparison to poetry, schlock for foolish women who wanted easy stories. Then people started taking them seriously as art forms, writing essays about them, analyzing them through close reading and other literary criticism and now they're as entrenched in the realm of high culture as classical music or classical poetry. All other "high art" has undergone a similar process where it started as entertainment for the average person until people started actually analyzing it intensely with the expectation that it will conform to some sort of artistic standards.
This process isn't inevitable though. It requires a dedicated community of critics and creators that insist on pushing mediums to new levels of human insight, insist that creations hold up to close examination and reward soulful, whole hearted and intense levels of engagement with equal levels of unveiled insight on the human experience and the systems and structures we've created. Of course, just like other mediums regarded as "art," there will always be a place for entertainment in the equation, but enough people have to expect more than entertainment from games until we get the mainstream critical mass capable of reaching a "yeah they're art" consensus.
So, short answer, probably, but games being considered art requires us to consistently regard them as such and demand the same depth of craft, ingenuity, and genius we demand out of our established artistic mediums. It's on us. Art isn't something something either is or isn't. It's something something becomes when we think of it with certain expectations.
return of the first post
I think games that are good art might just end up under the fine arts umbrella in the end, museums are becoming more and more open to sound art, and that's not even visual, games will fit in nicely, but they are still very young I'll agree with you on that.
Seeing as playing a game can often invoke varying degrees of shared authorship, I think you can argue a case for gaming itself as an artform. Beyond just the obvious stuff like Minecraft, I think this can also include stuff like speedrunning and minmaxing mechanics.
Zeyphersan
Banned
That's more a sport, where technical perfection what is being strived for, not actual expression
Does that imply something like a concert pianist only performing works written by others does not qualify as art either?
To iterate further, I think the strive towards perfection can be a form of expression. What I find especially fascinating about minmaxing and speedrunning is that they often push the technical limits of mechanics in such a way that even the developers could not even think of which stumps even then, and I guess that is some form of interpretation.
Yeah I agree, and maybe this is me being a wide-eyed optimist, but given the affordances of games (the complete engagement of the audience, marriage of audio and visuals, and blurring the line between protagonist and player), that when they do come into their own, games will become the ultimate way to tell a story, simply because of the level of engagement. Other media will still do certain things better, but games seem to be a meld of everything other media offers, as well as audience agency.
Also as an aside you've been a great debate opponent, and better than several other people I often bring this up to. They simply focus on aesthetics and feeling, as opposed to actually judging games against other media. So thank you
I completely agree with you on that and I want to be someone who helps make that happen.
No prob.
Good post
Evoker1995
Member
I think of video games to be an art form. Video games itself combines many different pieces of art to create a experience.
To create a great game, there has to be great:
-Music
-Art
-Story
-Game Play
I do not believe video games are not art since it combines these pieces that are already considered art by society.
To create a great game, there has to be great:
-Music
-Art
-Story
-Game Play
I do not believe video games are not art since it combines these pieces that are already considered art by society.
Thank You.
Zeyphersan
Banned
I'm underqualified for this debate. However, I was not implying that. I think the difference is that with speedrunning and min-maxing and all that jazz, there IS an optimal way to do things. When speedrunning, there will always be a best time. Always. And with that best time, the person is the best at that speedrun. If you don't get the best time, you are not the best. It's binary. You either achieve or you don't achieve.
When playing a song, there is no "best" way to play it. There's so many subtle variation in how notes are hit and played or how sections are interpreted that a person can only play other people's songs and they will still be unique experiences. A person who speedruns a game and doesn't get the best time loses. A person who plays a song but doesn't do it exactly the same as the original artist doesn't lose the song. You can't lose a song.
(This is excluding scenarios like a competition where the goal is to play the best/most accurately to the original. Then obviously the competition is a sport. But playing songs, even other people's, is not)
Fiercedeity
Banned
Gaming or games? They're art already.
Oh gaming itself? Hmm no it's a skill yes but an art form? I don't see it.
Oh gaming itself? Hmm no it's a skill yes but an art form? I don't see it.
Chezzymann
Member
The 'art' part of gaming is the developers crafting an experience that the player enjoys. Different types of gameplay evoke different experiences, thus this is where the art part comes from.
Dusk Golem
A 21st Century Rockefeller
I think I agree with what Guy Cihi, the voice actor of James Sunderland in Silent Hill 2, said on the matter during a live stream when the question was asked if he thought games were art.
"How old is Silent Hill 2? 14, 15 years old? And we're still talking about it."
"How old is Silent Hill 2? 14, 15 years old? And we're still talking about it."
VR_RaidenXOF
Member
Games can be a brilliant merging of several art forms at once, so not only is it art, it can be some of the best.
MGS2 for example.
Literature/Film/Music combined into game. It has more critical depth than most books that land on shelves year after year.
This debate was over before it started. Never was a debate really.
MGS2 for example.
Literature/Film/Music combined into game. It has more critical depth than most books that land on shelves year after year.
This debate was over before it started. Never was a debate really.
They are an art. Tetris is an art piece. Ocarina of Time is an art piece. Flower is an art piece. Video games are art. Shigeru Miyamoto is an artist, whether he believes it or not. Ken Levine is an artist. Hideo Kojima is an artist. Hideki Kamiya is an artist.
Yes, it's broad, some wouldn't consider artists themselves.
We went from the most basics of mechanics to having elimination and collection in Pac-Man and Break-Out and Space Invaders and Tetris to having tons and tons of interesting game mechanics ideas explored, some for pure fun, other for pure beauty, other for social commentary, all for artistic reasons as they shape the art piece.
Many publishers might not treat video games as such and not care for archiving or artistic analysis or social views expressed through a game, but there are many more voices just as influential as publishers in this medium. Some developers for example.
I know this video was posted on here recently but this is a good example of how interactive media are art for example.
Yes, it's broad, some wouldn't consider artists themselves.
We went from the most basics of mechanics to having elimination and collection in Pac-Man and Break-Out and Space Invaders and Tetris to having tons and tons of interesting game mechanics ideas explored, some for pure fun, other for pure beauty, other for social commentary, all for artistic reasons as they shape the art piece.
Many publishers might not treat video games as such and not care for archiving or artistic analysis or social views expressed through a game, but there are many more voices just as influential as publishers in this medium. Some developers for example.
I know this video was posted on here recently but this is a good example of how interactive media are art for example.
Professor Renegade
Banned
I think that gaming is an artform to an extent, it takes a certain type of game to be considered art imo. Something like Custer's Revenge would never rightfully be considered art, but a game like Bioshock could be considered art in terms of the design of the world and narrative.
The major hump that video games need to get over though is the connection it has with supposed "low brow culture." Like comics, video games have a tendency to be associated with children, teens, and young adults. It's viewed in the eyes of the status quo as an avenue of subcultural entertainment as opposed to an accepted art form, or literature for that matter.
During one of my classes this week I brought up the concept of video games as literature (ones that have stories at least), and my prof was really hesitant to admit that video games could even be considered literature.
The major hump that video games need to get over though is the connection it has with supposed "low brow culture." Like comics, video games have a tendency to be associated with children, teens, and young adults. It's viewed in the eyes of the status quo as an avenue of subcultural entertainment as opposed to an accepted art form, or literature for that matter.
During one of my classes this week I brought up the concept of video games as literature (ones that have stories at least), and my prof was really hesitant to admit that video games could even be considered literature.
Also, with regard to Hideo Kojima's position on video games as an art form, check this: https://youtu.be/aZkfMwBBdM0?t=25m39s
Very gracious.
Very gracious.
LegalEagleMike
Member
It already is. Just probably not to this guy.
FrenchToastDisciple
Member
It's also worth noting that there is a difference between discussions of artistic craft, which are discussions about how well the artist is achieving a coherent, discernible artistic effect through his or her choices, and discussions about artistic significance (doesn't feel like the best word, but it'll have to do for right now), which are discussions about what those created ideas mean and their significance for us as human beings. Both are compelling and important discussions, but we can certainly imagine a game which perfectly achieved a vision, but was nonetheless derivative and not particularly inspiring or interesting.
We have advanced pretty far in evaluating craft in video games, but we are sorely lacking in discussing artistic significance in video games (some important exceptions notwithstanding). There's so much potential, though, and I'm glad to have these conversations so that we can start to realize it.
We have advanced pretty far in evaluating craft in video games, but we are sorely lacking in discussing artistic significance in video games (some important exceptions notwithstanding). There's so much potential, though, and I'm glad to have these conversations so that we can start to realize it.
I disagree. An experience like Journey not only stems from the game content itself, but also how players interact with the world and other players.
Watching a movie does not affect the piece of art itself in any way. Watching a painting does not change the painting in any way either. But gaming is a somewhat unique art form in that it not only offers a crafted experience from the developers side, it also requires interaction. I do not think people can deny games itself are art, but I also think there is there is a case for the act of gaming itself being (part of the) art, since the contribution of the player is a crucial part to the overall experience and the way the art is presented.
Hipster Cthulhu
Banned
Are Games art? Yes.
Is Gamming art? Yes, because Games are interactive, they can only reach their true actually as art if they are played and experienced, the Devs and the Players are both artists that can only create art in cooperation.
Is Gamming art? Yes, because Games are interactive, they can only reach their true actually as art if they are played and experienced, the Devs and the Players are both artists that can only create art in cooperation.
Spot on.
Yeah, that is a example that could end up being destroyed than preserved.
Advances in technology have very little to do with it. 30 years ago this was a sprite. Now it's art.
I know. Can't argue with that. Even games created from nothing but pixels can be art, while others that strive for realism in graphics can too.
It is. Amazing game.
Wow. Great post.
BibiMaghoo
Member
I consider it art, but there is a possible conundrum with it.
The greatest works of art do not age. It's quality and skill to produce are timeless. Not so with video games. Yes you can say that the caveman painting is art, but it's not appreciated art, it isn't skillful to produce, and therefore not of any real value or merit other than being 'early art'.
With games, they tend to age terribly. There are many games that look like shit but are still super fun, but the basis of the medium is not timeless. The canvas is bound to technology which progresses in a way art mediums didn't, even though they to changed with the times. If a painting is on canvas, velum, wood, slate, whatever, the quality or lack of in the piece remains, but games cannot achieve this. The quality does not remain over time, because it is superseded by techniques that vastly improve quality going forward.
So while it is certainly art, it differs greatly in quality over a very small time. One day this may not be the case, but it is now.
The greatest works of art do not age. It's quality and skill to produce are timeless. Not so with video games. Yes you can say that the caveman painting is art, but it's not appreciated art, it isn't skillful to produce, and therefore not of any real value or merit other than being 'early art'.
With games, they tend to age terribly. There are many games that look like shit but are still super fun, but the basis of the medium is not timeless. The canvas is bound to technology which progresses in a way art mediums didn't, even though they to changed with the times. If a painting is on canvas, velum, wood, slate, whatever, the quality or lack of in the piece remains, but games cannot achieve this. The quality does not remain over time, because it is superseded by techniques that vastly improve quality going forward.
So while it is certainly art, it differs greatly in quality over a very small time. One day this may not be the case, but it is now.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
I think games can be art. However, I'm of the opinion that something made to make a company money isn't art. It's a product in which business decisions control its integrity. So basically I wouldn't consider 99% of AAA games to be art. I left that 1% just in case there's an actual AAA game where focus groups and business suits aren't involved. That's just my opinion on art though, and I'm not authority on the topic so take it with a grain of salt.
Monocle
Member
Games are already art, if you define art as an instance of creative expression designed to give the audience an evocative experience. There are pieces of art in games, like skyboxes and music, and art in the meeting of different types of artistic forms within games.
I'd like to see someone explain why aesthetically and thematically rich games like Shadow of the Colossus and Okami shouldn't be considered art.
I'd like to see someone explain why aesthetically and thematically rich games like Shadow of the Colossus and Okami shouldn't be considered art.
travisbickle
Member
art with a capital A?
BackwardCap
Member
I've yet to see any good arguments against it being art in my entire life.
KojiKnight
Member
Never played Mario Paint? Never played a game with a level editor?