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Hearthstone |OT4| The warsong has ended, please patron other decks

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ZealousD said:
Battle Rage doesn't come with the text "only usable by Patron Warrior". If there were ever the possibility that some other kind of Enrage/Self-Damage warrior were to emerge, which is an archetype that Blizzard has always tried to push (if not somewhat unsuccessfully), than nerfing Battle Rage would affect that deck as well. And as I said, that's a pretty significant hit to Warrior in arena.

Swapping the attack and health of Warsong Commander to a 3/2 only significantly hits any kind of enrage deck that can double whirlwind and generate additional more little dudes after the second whirlwind.procs. So that really only hurts Patron and... Dragon Egg.
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Swapping Warsong's health and attack wouldn't do much because the Charge she gives minions is a permanent buff, it's not an aura effect (think Hobgoblin, not Stormwind Champion). Warsong can die in the flurry of Whirlwinds and your Patrons and Frothings will still have Charge, provided you played them before killing her.

I still think the best way to nerf the deck without killing it is to make Frothings a 2/3 or even a 3/2. That would put a cap on the amount of damage you can do in one turn but still leave the rest of the deck intact.
 
Opiate said:
Do you feel that the warlock arcane golem decks are unfair? They can get 2x 12/10 chargers out in a single turn, even without Emperor. With emperor, they can get 3x 12/10 chargers.

I think the biggest difference is that the Warlock Arcane Golem deck (despite Warlocks' hero power) doesn't have the crazy draw engine that Patron has. If it took Patron decks longer to get to their combo on average, their win percentage would drop notably.

I think this is what makes Patron and Miracle Rogue unique in the history of "empty board suddenly charge your face with giant minions" decks; both Patron and Miracle Rogue could draw their decks incredibly quickly to get to the core cards they really need. Other similar decks are fine because they draw more slowly.
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I don't think the Warlock Arcane Golem burst deck is a problem in the current meta. Maybe I'm not looking deep enough into the reasons why Patron is so strong and dominant both on ladder and competitive play compared to the Warlock deck.

Maybe it's the draw engine that gets nerfed, like Auctioneer did for Miracle.
 
gutshot said:
Swapping Warsong's health and attack wouldn't do anything because the Charge she gives minions is a permanent buff, it's not an aura effect (think Hobgoblin, not Stormwind Champion). Warsong can die in the flurry of Whirlwinds and your Patrons and Frothings will still have Charge, provided you played them before killing her.

I still think the best way to nerf the deck without killing it is to make Frothings a 2/3 or even a 3/2. That would put a cap on the amount of damage you can do in one turn but still leave the rest of the deck intact.
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What it would do is this:

Play Warsong Commander
Play Patron
Hit your opponent with your death's bite, causing whirlwind
Patron doubles, warsong commander is now 3/1
Use actual whirlwind
Patron quadruples, but last two patrons do not get charge because the warsong commander is dead before they replicate

Only the first two patrons get charge. Right now, you have to whirlwind 3 times in a single turn before people stop getting charge, and that's extremely rare, and even when it happens your board is usually filled up already anyway (third whirlwind is almost certainly not for more patrons, but for berserker buffs). 2x whirlwind, though, would be a small but notable nerf to the deck.
 
ZealousD said:
Make Warsong Commander a 3/2? The Grim Patron combo is still strong but you can only pull off one whirlwind before patrons lose charge, meaning you basically place a cap on the more ridiculous damage numbers.
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This works well too. Having Warsong only survive 1 AoE to generate charge minions would make the deck more strategic.

Edit: And when they nerf Mad Scientist it really should be to put a random secret in play from the entire pool of secrets. That'd be a way to bring the secrets to even more popularity so all classes could run secrets.
 
Opiate said:
What it would do is this:

Play Warsong Commander
Play Patron
Hit your opponent with your death's bite, causing whirlwind
Patron doubles, warsong commander is now 3/1
Use actual whirlwind
Patron quadruples, but last two patrons do not get charge because the warsong commander is dead before they replicate

Only the first two patrons get charge. Right now, you have to whirlwind 3 times in a single turn before people stop getting charge, and that's extremely rare, and even when it happens your board is usually filled up already anyway (third whirlwind is almost certainly not for more patrons, but for berserker buffs). 2x whirlwind, though, would be a small but notable nerf to the deck.
Click to expand...

The main problem with the deck, as I see it, is its insane OTK combos that come from the Frothings, not its ability to generate a board full of Patrons. This nerf would do nothing to stop that and would barely even put a dent in the Patron board clear combo since you still have stuff like Inner Rage, Slam, and Cruel Taskmaster to help you spawn more Patrons with Charge. I don't really see the point.
 
gutshot said:
The main problem with the deck, as I see it, is its insane OTK combos that come from the Frothings, not its ability to generate a board full of Patrons. This nerf would do nothing to stop that and would barely even put a dent in the Patron board clear combo since you still have stuff like Inner Rage, Slam, and Cruel Taskmaster to help you spawn more Patrons with Charge. I don't really see the point.
Click to expand...

Patron uses Patrons to survive till late game so nerfing them in any way will definitely affect the deck.
 
gutshot said:
The main problem with the deck, as I see it, is its insane OTK combos that come from the Frothings, not its ability to generate a board full of Patrons. This nerf would do nothing to stop that and would barely even put a dent in the Patron board clear combo since you still have stuff like Inner Rage, Slam, and Cruel Taskmaster to help you spawn more Patrons with Charge. I don't really see the point.
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Yes, it definitely does not stop the frothings. I think many of us are choosing small changes because big changes (like frothing losing charge if it has more than 3 attack) would destroy the deck and it would be played about as often as Miracle rogue is now.

We'd like to avoid that, because Patron is very complicated and very difficult to play well and also unique. I don't want decks like that to go away, even if I don't personally play them. I don't feel Patron is so out of control that a few light touches can't fix it. I may be wrong, but it's certainly better to try a light touch first and, if that doesn't work, a heavier touch later.
 
Opiate said:
I think it's druid or shaman, so far. Lots of cards still to be revealed, however.
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Cannot wait to make an Inspire Token Druid and a Joust Control Shaman.I think priest has gotten a lot of tools as well to make some of their existing decks work better or even allow for new archetypes.
 
Opiate said:
Yes, it definitely does not stop the frothings. I think many of us are choosing small changes because big changes (like frothing losing charge if it has more than 3 attack) would destroy the deck and it would be played about as often as Miracle rogue is now.

We'd like to avoid that, because Patron is very complicated and very difficult to play well and also unique. I don't want decks like that to go away, even if I don't personally play them. I don't feel Patron is so out of control that a few light touches can't fix it. I may be wrong, but it's certainly better to try a light touch first and, if that doesn't work, a heavier touch later.
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I agree a small change is needed but I don't see how this one would affect the deck in any meaningful way. The Patron board clear would still be fairly effective since a lot of times you aren't even using the Whirlwind effects for that, just bouncing Patrons off enemy minions and/or using Slam, Inner Rage, etc. And the Frothing OTK is still in tact (I guess you lose 6 damage from it, for whatever that is worth).

Nerfing the Frothings still lets the deck do its thing with the Patrons and still lets you OTK from a reasonable health range but would put a cap on how much damage you could do so you aren't dying from 50 health and an empty board.
 
Honestly, more important than the Shaman cards themselves are the effects those cards can have on the opponent. If Thunderbluff valiant and draenei totem carver are played with any regularity at all, they put the fear of totems in people. It means every totem you create must be dealt with.

Making people afraid of totems is a big buff in itself.
 
I figured that I have most of the legendaries that see a lot of play, like dr boom, sylvanas, ragnaros, etc etc. so should I spend my dust on cards common in other decks? I don't ever play druid just because I don't have stuff like ancient of lore and ancient of lore and stuff. Should I craft those first, or save up for another legendary like Malygos (sp)?
 
Vitanimus said:
I figured that I have most of the legendaries that see a lot of play, like dr boom, sylvanas, ragnaros, etc etc. so should I spend my dust on cards common in other decks? I don't ever play druid just because I don't have stuff like ancient of lore and ancient of lore and stuff. Should I craft those first, or save up for another legendary like Malygos (sp)?
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Are you still getting classic packs? How are you getting your packs?
 
Vitanimus said:
I figured that I have most of the legendaries that see a lot of play, like dr boom, sylvanas, ragnaros, etc etc. so should I spend my dust on cards common in other decks? I don't ever play druid just because I don't have stuff like ancient of lore and ancient of lore and stuff. Should I craft those first, or save up for another legendary like Malygos (sp)?
Click to expand...
Tbh any current Malygos deck is inconsistent gimmick trash. Malylock has been the strongest one since Malygos Miracoli was killed and it turned out to be nothing but a silly fad. Just keep your dust, see what TGT brings and how it affects the meta.

Lore will be in every Druid deck ever but it's an epic so you'll be super sad when you eventually pull them from packs.
 
Don't ever craft commons or rares, you will get them eventually. Epics though, you might not. There are few good epics you need, probably have to craft them. Like Force of Nature or Ancient of Lore. It ends up costing like a legendary though, so it's hard for me to do that. Still rocking that single Ancient of Lore I opened from a pack, don't want to craft a second one.
 
Just got some friends into Hearthstone. Do you think buying packs is more important than the expansions?

It looks like the first wing of BRM at least gets you the emperor. And sludge belcher is in the second wing of nax.

I also gave them the list of unique quests that they should aim for to get some extra gold and dust.

Anyone have a preferred path to follow?
 
Opiate said:
Are you still getting classic packs? How are you getting your packs?
Click to expand...

just from doing the dailies. I don't really run arena cos i'm not that amazing

miladesn said:
Don't ever craft commons or rares, you will get them eventually. Epics though, you might not. There are few good epics you need, probably have to craft them. Like Force of Nature or Ancient of Lore. It ends up costing like a legendary though, so it's hard for me to do that. Still rocking that single Ancient of Lore I opened from a pack, don't want to craft a second one.
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yeah, I don't have things like force of nature either, so i can't really run any sort of druid deck. I have a single ancient of war and that's it.
 
Vitanimus said:
I figured that I have most of the legendaries that see a lot of play, like dr boom, sylvanas, ragnaros, etc etc. so should I spend my dust on cards common in other decks? I don't ever play druid just because I don't have stuff like ancient of lore and ancient of lore and stuff. Should I craft those first, or save up for another legendary like Malygos (sp)?
Click to expand...

I think it's worth it to craft epics, provided it is for a deck that you really want to play. I pulled one Ancient of Lore from a pack but then went ahead and crafted a second plus a Force of Nature because I really liked Midrange Druid and wanted to play it competitively.

I'm not going to be too sad if/when I pull another Ancient of Lore because it's only 300 dust lost and that 300 dust allowed me to play a deck I really enjoy 3-6 months earlier than I would have otherwise.
 
Phawx said:
Just got some friends into Hearthstone. Do you think buying packs is more important than the expansions?

It looks like the first wing of BRM at least gets you the emperor. And sludge belcher is in the second wing of nax.

I also gave them the list of unique quests that they should aim for to get some extra gold and dust.

Anyone have a preferred path to follow?
Click to expand...

I would advise playing all deck archetypes / classes, picking one they like with a cheap dust deck, and then go after the cards in that deck.

Some of the cheaper decks are aggro paladin, hunter of several kinds, patron warrior (without Harrison), and maybe tempo Mage?
 
It would actually be quite easy to "nerf" Patron if they simply made cards like these.

Mana Burn
4
Target player discards a card at random. Deal damage to them equal to its cost.

Warlock version:

Fel Stalker
3
Battlecry: Target player discard a card at random.
3/2

Rogue:

Mind-Numbing Poison:
3
Give your weapon +1/+0 and "When you deal damage to a player they discard a card at random".

Neutral:

C'thune
8
Battlecry: Shuffle both players' hands together and redistribute them evenly.
5/9
 
zoukka said:
I called bullshit on two accounts. The "aggro decks play themselves" and to the notion that control decks can't have opening hands/draws that guarantee wins. They can just as well as aggro decks. Let's say control warrior draws nothing but heal, 2 armorsmiths and whirlwind effects. No face deck can beat that.
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Most aggro decks do pretty much play themselves not including zoo which I don't think is really a face deck. Paladin and face hunter require no thought to win at a high clip and minuscule amounts of thought to win at a very high clip.

And face decks draw their "God draws" way more frequently than the 2 armorsmith draw that you described because almost all of their cards are completely interchangeable in each drop slot while other decks usually need to draw 2 specific cards out of 30 to stand a chance. And even then....who knows.
 
The problem is not Patron. It's Emperor. (though I think Emperor is good for the game, hear me out).

Emperor exists as a combo enabler, primarily. He's a very powerful mana engine, and he's neutral. We already see him enabling multiple burst combo decks. That's fine, that's what his design is built for. But keep in mind that with a powerful engine like this, it's usually the engine that will cause problems, not the specific deck that happens to currently abuse the engine to the greatest effect. Right now Patron is "the best Emperor deck" but it's not the only good one, not even close.

So if Patron is taken out with a nerf specific to the deck, it's just a matter of time before a different deck that abuses Emperor comes to the fore. This is particularly true in a slower metagame. Almost certainly, the next deck to break Emperor will be a Malygos deck since (1) we already have very strong Emperor-Malygos decks (2) spell burst has even less counterplay than charge minions (3) Malygos is neutral and they will continue to print damage spells obviously and (4) Malygos combo gains strength in a slower meta.

Alternatively, a druid-Emperor deck could become broken quite easily since FoN + SR is already so strong and Druid is getting a lot of good cards. Emperor enables ridiculous SR turns - we are shocked by videos of an 8 card Emperor-enabled Patron combo, and Savage Roar combos take way fewer cards to become ridiculous and Druid has additional mana burst through Innervate. This is currently only held back by Druid being slightly weak in the current game, though it's still a tier 1 deck! With one large Emperor tick like a Patron deck uses, you could throw out FoN + SR x2 + Innervate + Druid of the Sabre x2 (the new charge 2/1) and OTK any non-Warrior class.

We see this happen before with Miracle Rogue. Ultimately, the engine got nerfed (Gadgetzan). Leeroy nerf was justified because he was too much neutral burst for every class, but Gadgetzan combo still existed and it would have been only a matter of time before a Gadgetzan combo deck was really strong again.

However, I think combo engines are good for the game in moderation. My real answer isn't even to nerf Emperor, but to provide for more counterplay to OTK combo decks in general (counterplay that is more than "kill the combo deck faster than he can put his combo together"). Cards that interfere with your opponent's ability to put together the combination (like discard). Cards that interfere with your opponent's ability to put out a lot of damage in one turn through spells or charges (like Loatheb, but more of this). Cards that guarantee a turn of survival (like Ice Block). And so on.
 
Patron would still play an uncyclable Battle Rage. They'd just have to be a lot greedier with getting Patrons on the board and damaging them, which in turn will hurt their combo potential.

Of course it makes the card useless everywhere else but you can't win em all.

How about:

Battle Rage
2
Give yourself +2/+0, draw a card for every damaged minion.
 
Isn't it weird that Counter is its own mechanic and gets an explanatory text bubble explaining what it is when you hover over a card with it... and the only card with Counter in the game is Counterspell?
 
There might be more Counter effects in the future, since it's an archetypal mechanic in card games, but for the time being, yes, it's weird.
 
Santiako said:
Do you think they'll show the 54 remaining cards one by one on the stream or they'll just dump them all at once?
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If it is anything like the BRM stream, they will play a few show matches with some new cards and then show any they didn't get to in the Collection screen.

BRM had a lot less cards to show off though, so it is possible they may miss a few, in which case we'll have to wait until the image dump hits either later today or this weekend.
 
So are rogue and mage pretty much the only viable classes in this brawl? Trying to do dailies and got 1 win with shaman but not doing too well at getting another. Facing all mages.
 
depths20XX said:
So are rogue and mage pretty much the only viable classes in this brawl? Trying to do dailies and got 1 win with shaman but not doing too well at getting another. Facing all mages.
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Druid is the best in my opinion.

Shaman sucks for it because alot of their spells are undercosted to compensate for overload.
 
depths20XX said:
So are rogue and mage pretty much the only viable classes in this brawl? Trying to do dailies and got 1 win with shaman but not doing too well at getting another. Facing all mages.
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Druid is easily the best. I had a Paladin/Priest 5 wins quest, so I made an all spell Priest deck and just got demolished at least 4 games in a row. Threw together a Paladin deck and went 5-0.
 
I haven't played against a druid yet, but my rogue and paladin decks have destroyed mage so far.

EDIT My rogue totally did play a druid and won handily(Vanish is wonderful here BTW) - I just forgot > <
 
Qx48FPJ.jpg
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Ladder is a funny place.
 
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