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[RocBase]

Over the last several months, there has been a lot of debate in the Final Fantasy XV threads over "stylized" and "realistic" character aesthetics. Which of the two styles used is better? Which should be used going forward? Why are there two drastic styles to even begin with?

For those not in the know, Final Fantasy XV is also releasing a movie titled Kingsglaive which features a very different style compared to that of the game. Basically the game goes for the usual "pretty" aesthetic SE is known for and the movie has a more realistic approach. For comparison:

So now this thread was mostly created with the concern of what this means going forward into SE's future FF titles. I will say personally that I have nothing against either of the styles, but in a time where we are not short on games that strive for realism, I do side with the game aesthetic more and I do feel there is still room for experimenting to just outright abandon it.

A common complaint I see is how the current SE style of characters are not able to emote properly. It's a valid point which, while I don't entirely agree with, I can understand where the issue might be coming from. I don't believe this is at fault of the model looking like a doll itself, but more down to a conscious animation choice. This observation comes from a panel VisualWorks held last year where they go over their entire workflow, and there's a section where they talk about their facial rigging/animation. Note what is being said about what they do to keep their characters looking "pretty" (the segment is just short of 5 mins):

https://youtu.be/gyt9xZCx_YY?t=3917

The technology is certainly there, but they deliberately dial it down to keep the "fair" features of their characters - hence why they look like dolls.

Disney and Pixar animations all have characters that straight up look like dolls, but they are perfectly able to emote through the way they're (amazingly) animated. I dont htink anyone can argue that their characters don't convey emotion clearly, unless of course someone wants to contest this.

So yeah, that's my piece. Debate away!

 

[Falk]

Final Fantasy VIII, IX and X were successive mainline games. I wouldn't take the aesthetic of one game to have a mandatory effect on the next.

 

[Man God]

Final Fantasy VIII, IX and X were successive mainline games. I wouldn't take the aesthetic of one game to have a mandatory effect on the next.

You can add V, VI, VII to that as well. Plus XI, XII, XIII The last two games to have a similar aesthetic were IV and V.

 

[Narroo]

The technology is certainly there, but they deliberately dial it down to keep the "fair" features of their characters - hence why they look like dolls.

For the love of god. Liking how pretty your character models are is not a excuse to screw up the animation. They look worse!

 

[Falk]

Yeah, well, I get that the differences from game to game are at the very least on par with the difference between e.g. Kingsglaive and FFXV, but I picked VIII, IX, X because they were the most extreme examples of seesawing, jump to 3D aside.

 

[wmlk]

I think costume design is what really throws people off for mainline FF games. I think a character design like Agni with her simple but stylized red dress would be appreciated by a lot more people.

 

[Astral Dog]

One goes for a slightly more generic/stylized JRPG look, of course, but outfits wise the movie looks more typical Final Fantasy.

 

[jiggle]

I prefer Acne's philosophy and advent children's look

 

[Turin]

Final Fantasy has played around with and switched up it's look many times in the past. It'll continue to do so.

As I said in the other thread, I think some are getting carried away in feuding over regional design styles.

 

[RocBase]

For the love of god. Liking how pretty your character models are is not a excuse to screw up the animation. They look worse!

That's precisely the point. It's the animation which needs to be addressed, not the models.

 

[Ran rp]

I think costume design is what really throws people off for mainline FF games. I think a character design like Agni with her simple but stylized red dress would be appreciated by a lot more people.

>.>

never forget

she was the perfect mix of stylized and grounded design

<.<

Acne's philosophy

lmao

 

[Pyrrhus]

Don't worry. One movie that's honestly still pretty Japanese-looking isn't going to be able to knock the androgynous, pointy-chinned Nomura fare that has nearly monopolized FF in the two decades since FF7 out of the limelight.

 

[NoctisVsStar]

OP it's a one time only thing.. Remember this game was originally a spinoff. Also, worth mentioning these games do have to appeal to the Japanese audience so don't expect them to go balls in regards to the Kingsglaive aesthetic.

 

[Dennis]

It is easier to go for the photorealistic look when you are making a movie.

A more stylized look is easier to pull off when you need to think of the hardware running your game.

Aesthetically, I am OK with both. Execution is everything.

This topic is the justification for posting a high fidelity yet stylized FF piece of art:

 

[Garrett Hawke]

I prefer Acne's philosophy

sounds unpleasant.

 

[Turin]

I think costume design is what really throws people off for mainline FF games. I think a character design like Agni with her simple but stylized red dress would be appreciated by a lot more people.

I don't think it's the one thing. It's how it all comes together.

Agni would most likely be more warmly received, yes.

 

[wmlk]

>.>


<.<


lmao

Well, not even Nomura liked how that looked so he changed that design like 3 more times. It's unfortunate, but that's why we have what we have.

 

[Dennis]

Hey jiggle, don't edit my Tifa into your post.

 

[The Last One]

I like what they're going in for VII Remake:

 

[Joyful]

jpop/fashion models

 

[120v]

i dunno... FF has more or less had the same art direction for two decades now. save for some odd abberations like FFIX, maybe XII

 

[paragonpro]

I like what they're going in for VII Remake:

I agree, it reminds me of the concept art

 

[kurahador]

I don't mind whichever direction they go, but there need to be a consistent styles and look when it comes to the same series which is why Kingsglaive departure from the game and Brotherhood bums me out.

Even Ivalice series has more consistent look despite their games doesn't quite relate to each other.

 

[Ran rp]

Well, not even Nomura liked how that looked so he changed that design like 3 more times. It's unfortunate, but that's why we have what we have.

nomura fucked up

Finaland & FFDream: Why did you change Stella’s design and made her look so much younger. Is it because of story development or because you made a survey with the audience ?

Tetsuya Nomura: There is no specific reason behind hit, but we didn’t want to make her look younger, we just wanted to make her a little bit prettier. That’s all.

Finaland & FFDream: But in 2007 she was very nice ! She’s very nice and still pretty but she’s still a little younger.

Tetsuya Nomura: When I created Stella, back in 2007, I actually created something that is not my type of character, but obviously time has past since then, about six years now, and then she actually became something that I quite like now.

 

[Ydelnae]

I want to see a Kingsglaive type of approach to FFIV and V's designs. Let the characters clash between realism and fantasy. I think Agni's philosophy did a good job at this, she was realistic and FF-like while not being a literal doll like what happens with other Visual a works CGI in characters like Sora or Lightning.

I don't think XV and Kingsglaive actually point to the direction the franchise is going to take in terms of art direction, though. Actually, I'm fairly sure that they won't repeat present day fantasy again and they will go either classic FFI art direction or a huge departure from past FF settings and try something like Star Wars.

 

[Sakujou]

i think this was told so many times, but i want to say this once again: FF is a series which never tries to take over stuff from the last game. they rarely do look similar or play similar.

people complain about "traditions" in ff.

so yeah what is this tradition?
the magics are called similar
chocobos
some always returning npcs
bestias

except that we always had new ideas/designs in FF.

if you want a traditional j-rpg, go get DQ.

i dont have a problem, playing a k-pop/j-pop boyband on a roadtrip.

i dont care about the movie and the different style in the game.
as long as they are not completely exploit their fans(which they already do with offering too much shit for one series entry) iam more worrying about this.

the art direction never was bad in FF.

 

[DangerMouse]

Final Fantasy VIII, IX and X were successive mainline games. I wouldn't take the aesthetic of one game to have a mandatory effect on the next.

This.

This topic is the justification for posting a high fidelity yet stylized FF piece of art:

Yeah, that mixed style and the designs so far for FF7 Remake are some of the best so far, they're knocking it out of the park so far IMO.

FFXII also did it pretty well in the game models.

I think costume design is what really throws people off for mainline FF games. I think a character design like Agni with her simple but stylized red dress would be appreciated by a lot more people.

I disagree. If they ever put out a game with Agni in that outfit, I would fully expect that feather-looking collar to get ripped to shreds in threads about her design.

 

[NoctisVsStar]

I want to see a Kingsglaive type of approach to FFIV and V's designs. Let the characters clash between realism and fantasy. I think Agni's philosophy did a good job at this, she was realistic and FF-like while not being a literal doll like what happens with other Visual a works CGI in characters like Sora or Lightning.

I don't think XV and Kingsglaive actually point to the direction the franchise is going to take in terms of art direction, though. Actually, I'm fairly sure that they won't repeat present day fantasy again and they will go either classic FFI art direction or a huge departure from past FF settings and try something like Star Wars.

Present day FF will never happen again, you can book this post.

 

[Aters]

I don't like FFXV's main cast. If they want a pretty boy cast, make them actually pretty. I've seen many pretty people in my FF games before, I don't mind some more.

Now they look like a failed attempt to go for realism, a cosplay to themselves. Full realism like the film or full anime-ish like FFXIII are both better options.

 

[Stumpokapow]

My suggestions:

1. The real world does not have flat ground. Stop making games with Japanese Game Flat Ground Syndrome.

2. I get that there's narrative reason for people to wear all black runway fashion in FF15, but I think maybe it'd be better if the clothing, while remaining stylized and character-appropriate, were a bit less intense.

3. Mechanics don't flop their tits out.

That's really the only input I have.

 

[sn00zer]

I think the realism makes characters look a bit silly, but I think it was the best outcome translating Nomura's 2D to 3D. That said I LOVE the realism applied to creature design. FFXV has some truly insane creature designs and the heap of realistic texture and sculpting makes the world really come alive. I would love to see more "realistic" monster work in the future.

I like where FFXVI is going as they seem to be moving away from the "protagonist must have anime hair"


EDIT: In short FF has insanely strong world and creature design and weak character design.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Quoting myself from the other thread:

I feel like Japanese games would be more successful if their character design was more grounded instead of "well we just think this looks cool." Especially if they're gonna have the fidelity that FFXV has. Hell they could even start scanning in actual asian people and have those people actually perform and get immersed in their roles instead of just providing voice over work. It's not even like the costume design would suddenly get "downgraded" or whatever, the opposite, they would just start to make more sense instead of "just looks cool and it's fantasy so believability isn't important."

This logic applies to any sort of FF setting they choose next.

 

[wmlk]

I disagree. If they ever put out a game with Agni in that outfit, I would fully expect that feather-looking collar to get ripped to shreds in threads about her design.

This is pretty anecdotal, but I've seen nothing but praise for Agni's design from day one. I can't even find multiple posts criticizing her look.

 

[NoctisVsStar]

My suggestions:

1. The real world does not have flat ground. Stop making games with Japanese Game Flat Ground Syndrome.

2. I get that there's narrative reason for people to wear all black runway fashion in FF15, but I think maybe it'd be better if the clothing, while remaining stylized and character-appropriate, were a bit less intense.

3. Mechanics don't flop their tits out.

That's really the only input I have.

Then the game won't be JP

Spoiler

Kappa

 

[DangerMouse]

I like what they're going in for VII Remake:

Yeah, it's incredible how well they are nailing it, the designs and style in the gameplay trailer was super impressive.

 

[Lights and Waves]

I like when they pick a theme and design around it. For example, FFX's Polynesian aesthetic.

 

[Shoeless]

It's probably never going to happen, but I would love for Squenix to revisit the look that Amano defined for the series in earlier years. The technology is now there that it's feasible to create characters in this style, and even Amano himself has actually experimented with CG animation with some passable results.

 

[DangerMouse]

This is pretty anecdotal, but I've seen nothing but praise for Agni's design from day one. I can't even find multiple posts criticizing her look.

I don't remember myself too (though I do remember the overly familiar guns and desert rightfully getting regular complaints) for sure, but it was possibly also helped by the thing as a whole looking really good for a good impression, as did she, but I think a "frilly" outfit like that would probably bring out the usual complaints from those people who always complain about non-western designs.

 

[sn00zer]

While I don't like Zelda I always felt it has THE BEST mix of practicality and fantasy in terms of character design. The clothes seem otherworldly, but not overly ornate to the point of being impractical. Also all the clothes seemed to suit the characters job appropriately.

 

[Shig]

I died at the ad I got at the bottom of this thread:

Yes, this. Do this.

 

[Turin]

Present day FF will never happen again, you can book this post.

Really, XV isn't that far from where VIII was, even VII in some ways. It's a lot more detailed, obviously.

You'll see it again one day. Just not any time soon. The series is overdue for a medieval style setting or even a bizarre world like FFX.

 

[Inuhanyou]

I agree OP. Stylized Japanese modeling can always work as long as its done properly IMO and doesn't reach uncanney valley status(Star Ocean 4).

Not everything has to be either cell shaded or super humanized realistic, there are perfectly reasonable in betweens.

 

[sn00zer]

I think in general the FFXV world and characters are great, the clothes though just look really really ridiculous.

 

[Azubah]

It would be awesome if they used careful toon shading like Guilty Gear to mimic the water color style of Amano. Animate it with brush strokes like Okami and you'd have something really incredible.

 

[Falk]

While I don't like Zelda I always felt it has THE BEST mix of practicality and fantasy in terms of character design. The clothes seem otherworldly, but not overly ornate to the point of being impractical. Also all the clothes seemed to suit the characters job appropriately.

You're asking for someone to post pictures of Cia aren't you

Spoiler

I don't disagree

It would be awesome if they used careful toon shading like Guilty Gear to mimic the water color style of Amano. Animate it with brush strokes like Okami and you'd have something really incredible.

GG Xrd was a very, VERY carefully controlled and crafted aesthetic that took basically forever to achieve for each character and only works from a very specific framing both in terms of perspective and zoom level. Heck the eye size is different on the combat models vs the cut-ins/closeups.

 

[Ran rp]

While I don't like Zelda I always felt it has THE BEST mix of practicality and fantasy in terms of character design. The clothes seem otherworldly, but not overly ornate to the point of being impractical. Also all the clothes seemed to suit the characters job appropriately.

I dunno, that third one looks pretty ridiculous.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I don't remember myself too (though I do remember the overly familiar guns and desert rightfully getting regular complaints) for sure, but it was possibly also helped by the thing as a whole looking really good for a good impression, as did she, but I think a "frilly" outfit like that would probably bring out the usual complaints from those people who always complain about non-western designs.

It's a really unique design that would have a cool silhouette during gameplay but one would assume that she'd change it since she seems to be on the run. Hell that could even be a big character moment since she's seemingly part of an order of some kind.

While I don't like Zelda I always felt it has THE BEST mix of practicality and fantasy in terms of character design. The clothes seem otherworldly, but not overly ornate to the point of being impractical. Also all the clothes seemed to suit the characters job appropriately.

Miyamoto cares SO much about making things believable, including outfits. It's why Hyrule Warriors looks so odd by comparison in every way.

 

[Inuhanyou]

This topic is the justification for posting a high fidelity yet stylized FF piece of art:

Ugh, best tifa. This was based on her AC model design, and probably will also be the design FF7R uses as well.

I will say i love her AC outfit the most out of all the design changes AC made though.

 

[Squire]

I prefer Acne's philosophy and advent children's look

The disparity between these designs isn't very large at all and the same applies to FFXV and Kingsglaive. Especially for the latter two, it's important to remember they're part of the same universe and were crafted to be so.

There's a difference - like, I'm not trying to undermine the debate - but I don't think it's noticeable to the point of them being different styles altogether, as that would run counter to Kingsglaive's core purpose, which is to introduce the world and onboard viewers of the film to the game.

I think better questions are: Which of the two directions could/should SE lean into? And can they/should they find a comfortable space between both? I imagine the latter is what they're striving for.

The animation just needs to better, flat-out. They're obviously capable, given the film (well, VW specifically is capable), but from what we've seen, XV's in-game cutscenes just aren't up to industry standard. Characters faces and bodies move very stiffly and camera placement is pretty bad, too. I don't really think that has anything to do with preserving doll-like beauty or whatever.

Edit: Oh, you meant Agni/AC share an extent. Gotcha.

XV and KG are still pretty close, all things considered.

 

[BumRush]

Like others have said, I think that over the next 3-4 FFs, I think we'll get realistic, fantasy, maybe steampunk, something new?, etc. I don't think the art direction of XV is going to have any bearing on XVI and beyond.