It typically reprojects "shit" from previous frames, which is also why static-image resuts are basically identical to native render. It's obviously not ideal, but unlike usual upscaling, the data is not actually made-up, which is where most of the quality benefits come from.rakanishu said:
Digital Foundry PS4 Pro Launch Coverage Begins
- Thread starter Jonboy
- Start date
Yeah it's pretty pathetic. What a waste of time lol. It's frustrating that a bunch of people seem to be hellbent on damaging the image of the system, and who knows why they're doing it.
It's kind of sad that you think "the image of the system" is something that matters. It's a box.
I'll retract my statement of "shit" because it seems to trigger something that I didn't intend to do. I understand what you are saying. I'm agreeing with it not being ideal. The problem I originally had was the topic stating 4k. It was a copy/paste, but still, it is misinformation. It is comparable with upscaling or a codec, but it doesn't look like the real thing. That is my point.
Hexa
Member
You disagree with me (and the general industry) on this It seems, but I think that's fine. Just like how Netflix 1080p isn't actually native 1080p and no one really seems to have a problem with it, I would consider calling this simply 4K fine by the same logic. Calling it native 4K would be wrong though of course.
So much misinformation here. The term scaling is being thrown around, but it's such a broad term that it's actually confusing and missing the point. Scaling can literally be the decices ability to scale an image to another resolution, higher or lower. The Xbox one s scaled to my 4K TV and the output is native, the image being used is not. This is not what the PS4 pro is doing. The IQ of the image has no improvement in this case.
The fact is, 4k requires aporximately 4 times the rendering power of the PS4. Sony wanted to keep cost down, so they doubled the rendering power instead, added ram and some other extra tricks.
From my understanding...
Checkerboard is 2 frames of data being used to produce a 4K image by means of a checkerboard, i.e. Alternate pixels take from the first and second frame. Each frame requires the power of 2 ps4s, hence why the pro is speced as such. Usually this sounds like a bad idea.... However the PS4 pro has special hardware to track geometary at 4K and I put that data somehow into the rendering process to make an image similar in quality to 4k. It is my understanding that looking at the images if you are not moving, produces an almost native 4 image. When the game moves, quality is still excellent but is compromised slightly.
The fact is, 4k requires aporximately 4 times the rendering power of the PS4. Sony wanted to keep cost down, so they doubled the rendering power instead, added ram and some other extra tricks.
From my understanding...
Checkerboard is 2 frames of data being used to produce a 4K image by means of a checkerboard, i.e. Alternate pixels take from the first and second frame. Each frame requires the power of 2 ps4s, hence why the pro is speced as such. Usually this sounds like a bad idea.... However the PS4 pro has special hardware to track geometary at 4K and I put that data somehow into the rendering process to make an image similar in quality to 4k. It is my understanding that looking at the images if you are not moving, produces an almost native 4 image. When the game moves, quality is still excellent but is compromised slightly.
So checkerboard rendering is comparable to stretching pixels and using compression-like techniques. Okay. So I should compare it to Onlive.
Doubtful about that.
Bloodborne is probably somewhere near the 3 million mark.
Bloodborne probably made more money ,because it most likely cost less to make.(while selling nearly as many copies as infamous)
Guardian Monkey
Member
The system can output in most cases 1440p at 60fps which is the same amount of pixels as 4K at 30fps roughly. So your getting two passes to produce 4K image by alternating pixels at each pass, at the end of the second pass the composite is shown on screen.
Hexa
Member
There are obviously major quality differences in that live streaming tech transmits no where near even half the pixels so in terms of quality it doesn't compare at all with common streaming compression algorithms. But as very broad concepts they are similar, so I'm making the comparison mostly for the sake of establishing terminology than making any statements about quality.
You seem to be trying way too hard to try to simply cb and fit it into boxes of already established technologies. There's no single thing it's going to be exactly like that you can completely compare it to. It's not revolutionary but it's still pretty new tech.
shouamabane
Member
visiblemode
Member
Yeah totally. A simple inert box. Oh wait, no...it plays games and serves a function. Its image impacts on its sales. Those adopting the system would rather people don't deter adoption based on fiction and therefore depress developer support.
Brad Grenz
Member
That's not how it works, either. It doesn't composite anything. An algorithm uses color and motion data from multiple previous frames, color data from neighboring frames and the polygon ID buffer to estimate the color of the missing pixels. You get a large percent of the accuracy of traditional rasterized samples but at a tiny fraction of the rendering time and any artifacts that manifest are very small because your overall resolution is so high.
3rdamention
Member
That is a PSVR Concession, not a PS4 Pro Concession. Or, it could be argued it was a PSVR oversite. Who knows? But the fact that the PSVR breakout box doesn't pass through HDR isn't a PS4 Pro concession to reach $399. Maybe a PSVR concession to reach $399......
Your example is an apples to oranges comparison.
pixelation
Member
Thank You!
The idea is that it's avoiding making up stuff as much as possible. In an ideal case(no movement, or light movement with no occlusion), no information is made up at all.
BRocknRolla
Member
Do you even know what product is being discussed in this thread? Are you even trying?
Liabe Brave
Member
Except if the view doesn't move, CBR can produce results exactly like "the real thing" (i.e. native 4K).
Still not a very good comparison, but at least you've admitted you were wrong to call it "upscaling".
The essential point is that in technical discussions nuance matters. For example, I would be remiss not to mention that, while CBR is not upscaling, PS4 Pro is sometimes using upscaling in addition to CBR.
VisualFidelity
Member
Not including a 4k Blu-ray player, especially when x1 does is the biggest deal breaker in gaming history. I was gonna get one until I found out
Maybe it's just me, but I have bought only 1 UHD Blu-ray for my one s, everything else I have streamed. I feel like the UHD Blu-ray missing on the pro isn't such a huge deal.
JetBlackPanda
Member
This thread is something else..
I'm only interested in PSVR upgrades from the pro.
I'm only interested in PSVR upgrades from the pro.
Mikey Jr.
Member
/rolls eyes
Traxtech
Member
You're so full of shit lol
That's not diarrhoea. That's overflow incontinence.
Well, i wasn't serious.
Very, very odd that you didn't say anything to Elios 83 or onQ123, instead you "attacking" others and trying so hard to prove your point. In that case, C'MON, SON! GIVE IT A SHOT :
dlbeast
Member
Such a troll comment.
that's no't even related to gaming..
You were literally in line to pre-order, but when you found out about the biggest deal breaker in gaming history, you threw your hands up in the air, shrieked, ran past the endcap with the twenty-five UHD Blu-rays in it and then made this totally truthful post.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
You should be very interested then.
In my whole gaming life, i watched 2 movies on consoles. And that console was PS2. I don't buy consoles for watching movies. I use PC instead for that.
Well, xbox one now have the "best" movie watching game system and "best" tv watching game system.
I guess the majority sticking with the "best" gaming system(playstation) are idiots.
/s
Sony employee talks about Pro on this podcast.
https://youtu.be/n45vdR4CqRQ?t=1h54m35s
His twitter page has pics and video https://twitter.com/Darkcloud25
https://youtu.be/n45vdR4CqRQ?t=1h54m35s
His twitter page has pics and video https://twitter.com/Darkcloud25
BigSoftieFF
Member
I've seen some stupid fucking comments but WOW.....
Sad Affleck
Member
Someone earlier said that the starting resolution is 1600x1800 that is then reconstructed through chequerboard rendering to 3200x1800 and then upscaled to 4k. Is that not the case?
Edit: Elios83.
2blackcats
Member
What we really need is the highest quality pixels.
Hopefully Jesus comes back with them in a year or so or is there another saviour that you're expecting?
BigSoftieFF
Member
You make a good point!
ScaryShark
Banned
It usually has to do with them not being able to afford it and then marginalizing the product to justify not having it right away or at all. This goes for most tech.
DOWN
Banned
Both PS4 and PS4 Pro do HDR, this is a thread on PS4 Pro, and you post something about an optional peripheral not passing HDR to TVs in general???
I'm quite sure that in this case the correct term is interleaved rendering.
In case of 1800p checkerboard this is the case.
Some games use higher resolution to get directly to 4k. (Comparable to 1920x2160)
Pretty close.
For some (hopeful) clarity;
The important difference is that it is a reconstruction algorithm, not an upscaling algorithm.
The best upscale algorithms will analyze an image in isolation, attempting to find known patterns - e.g. a high contrast edge - and upscale those element based on what it thinks it is. A high contrast edge is a pretty easy case to upscale if you can trace along the edge accurately enough.
This is actually how fxaa works, fwiw.
A reconstruction algorithm differs by having partial knowledge of the full image - there is a mix of native data and some missing data. E.g. you already know there is an edge and you know it's precise shape - you don't need to detect it or trace a guess of it - but you may not know some of its color. This is a much easier situation to reconstruct that will always produce a closer result to the ground truth because you have more data.
Compared to fxaa, you can actually think of MSAA as doing this in a way.
In the case of checkerboard, the missing pixels still have native 4k depth and 'id' (a unique value to identify their source). This allows you to know with certainty if neighbor pixels (or temporally reprojected pixels) come from the same object or not - so there is far less guess work involved in reconstructing the missing data, thus the result is going to be dramatically better than a pure upscale.
Lion Heart
Banned
This would be a big deal to me if you could still rent Blu-Rays or if I had a 4k Tv. I'll hopefully have one in the next 12-16 months but UHD aint cheap, no rent = limited use. I swear I rented a Bluray every week starting in 2006 and 1080p sets were way more common than 4k at the time, yet it was less of a big deal than UHD...go figure.