I mean, Bash GW2 all day long for all I care, but the bolded is patently untrue. Did you even play GW2? LITERALLY THE ENTIRE PLOT is fighting elder dragons. The base game ends with you killin Zhaitan and the Xpac is about fighting Mordremoth.
Why isn't Guild Wars 2 more popular?
- Thread starter Larson Conway
- Start date
I mean, Bash GW2 all day long for all I care, but the bolded is patently untrue. Did you even play GW2? LITERALLY THE ENTIRE PLOT is fighting elder dragons. The base game ends with you killin Zhaitan and the Xpac is about fighting Mordremoth.
Back in 2012, i remember the hype for guild wars 2 being extremelly high and reviews were super possitive (90 on metacritic). Everyone was saying how great the game was.
However, something happen along the way. Just 1 year after it's release, the game lost it's popularity and the majority of players stop playing. I first try the game out in late 2013 and there was barely any players running around.
However, something happen along the way. Just 1 year after it's release, the game lost it's popularity and the majority of players stop playing. I first try the game out in late 2013 and there was barely any players running around.
BizzyBum
Member
Is GW3 a certainty?
2 out of 6 (1 out of 6 without Heart of Thorns) is not really fulfilling expectations in my opinion.
In Guild Wars 1 you can see 2 elder dragons sleeping, both were supposed to awake in GW2 but apparently never did(?).
I think it is very disappointing that in a game about 6 dragons you only get to fight 1 in vanilla and 2 in the complete package.
I think it was quite fun as a mostly solo MMORPG experience, for a while. I played it for many many hours in the first month after release (maxed two characters), then stopped, came back for Heart of Thorns, leveled up another character, finished the first two jungle zones, then stopped again
so, the negatives:
PvP is bad
RvRvR is super bad, you're completely insignificant and everything you accomplish is undone is by huge organized raid groups that log in a couple hours later. If you're part of such a raid group, you're still insignificant. Just the general RvRvR gameplay isn't statisfying in the least
typical bad MMO throwaway quest design
I didn't feel compelled to take my characters to any raids or dungeons in Heart because you're supposed to build your character in such and such way, take specific weapons and abilities, repeat the same skill rotation again and again ad infinitum. Everyone's character is the same, might just as well have a bot play for me because an indepently thinking player is clearly not needed nor welcome. You'd just be a hindrance for other players in their massive mindless gear grind. Oh, and the same applies if you want to join a RvRvR guild, they tell you what your character build should look like or won't take you
I very much enjoyed the setting of Heart, though. The first two jungle zones are better than anything else in the game
so, the negatives:
PvP is bad
RvRvR is super bad, you're completely insignificant and everything you accomplish is undone is by huge organized raid groups that log in a couple hours later. If you're part of such a raid group, you're still insignificant. Just the general RvRvR gameplay isn't statisfying in the least
typical bad MMO throwaway quest design
I didn't feel compelled to take my characters to any raids or dungeons in Heart because you're supposed to build your character in such and such way, take specific weapons and abilities, repeat the same skill rotation again and again ad infinitum. Everyone's character is the same, might just as well have a bot play for me because an indepently thinking player is clearly not needed nor welcome. You'd just be a hindrance for other players in their massive mindless gear grind. Oh, and the same applies if you want to join a RvRvR guild, they tell you what your character build should look like or won't take you
I very much enjoyed the setting of Heart, though. The first two jungle zones are better than anything else in the game
As someone who played from launch and stopped after a year or two (I cannot remember), the reason is quite simple:
ArenaNet had no idea what they wanted to do with the game.
There was a long time when there was no QOL, no real updates or no nothing. Then when things did start to happen, it was far too late (and I remember there still being tons of QOL things not having been fixed at this time anyway). Then they started with the living story, which was a confused mess despite some highlights (Twisted Marionette is one of the best bosses created). Then were was more silence. And not to mention the fact that... all the events repeated with no changes at all. Halloween? Christmas? Adventure Box? Enjoy the exact same thing! This was made even worse as they had actual ongoing stories that just came to a halt.
It's no wonder it didn't become more popular.
ArenaNet had no idea what they wanted to do with the game.
There was a long time when there was no QOL, no real updates or no nothing. Then when things did start to happen, it was far too late (and I remember there still being tons of QOL things not having been fixed at this time anyway). Then they started with the living story, which was a confused mess despite some highlights (Twisted Marionette is one of the best bosses created). Then were was more silence. And not to mention the fact that... all the events repeated with no changes at all. Halloween? Christmas? Adventure Box? Enjoy the exact same thing! This was made even worse as they had actual ongoing stories that just came to a halt.
It's no wonder it didn't become more popular.
I mean, it's an mmo, there's more coming. That's like complaining that in wow we haven't killed lilterally every bad guy yet. I don't think the GW2 story is very awesome, but the point that it somehow ignored GW1 lore or doesn't have the dragons is literally just a lie.
This, plus I had many other games to play, so I had to choose between them or GW2. Sadly for GW2, it lost. Despite not playing much of it, I had a lot of fun during that time.
The lack of vertical design made the endgame seem pointless. You need SOME kind of progression.
It also felt really bloated, there didn't seem to be a clear entry point into endgame and I didn't care enough to find it.
The account wide bonuses were a neat idea but it really started to feel like chores.
My gear was as powerful as legendaries which took tens or hundreds of hours to farm so I felt like I was good and quit.
It also felt really bloated, there didn't seem to be a clear entry point into endgame and I didn't care enough to find it.
The account wide bonuses were a neat idea but it really started to feel like chores.
My gear was as powerful as legendaries which took tens or hundreds of hours to farm so I felt like I was good and quit.
Weltall Zero
Member
I've given up on trying to understand how people didn't fall in love with GW2 like I did, much as I've given up on understanding why people keep playing the same exact "20 bear asses" MMOs. If I ever were to return to MMOs, it would be to GW2, no question.
You couldn't get a more different MMO from WoW if you tried. Old Republic and FFXIV are , you name it. Criticism about the lack of trinity from people who love that mechanic I can get; saying it's "like WoW" I sincerely can't.
You couldn't get a more different MMO from WoW if you tried. Old Republic and FFXIV are , you name it. Criticism about the lack of trinity from people who love that mechanic I can get; saying it's "like WoW" I sincerely can't.
GW2 is the most '20 bear ass' MMO out there.
For all the shit they talked pre-release about the quests in the game, they're literally all just murdering things or clicking F on things to fill progress bars. Same as how they upsold the combat as some great physical and tactical thing, but it's just cooldown hotkeys. Like, every aspect of the game that they tried to shit-talk wow for, wow had moved on from by the time the game came out, let alone in the years since. Wow combat is miles more deep, and wow questing is significantly more interesting (despite the limitations and a lot of it being filler by necessity), and has been since like, wrath fo the lich king? 10 years ago almost.
The endgame literally just being a grind for crafting mats and shit is the icing on the cake.
EDIT: I say all this as someone that played the game extensively at launch, and has been playing daily fort the past month or two again.
Autoignition
Member
It's funny you mention it, actually. I was in TS yesterday doing WvW, and I don't know what the hell everyone was talking about before I came in, but I came in right as the squad leader sighed the biggest sigh and said, "Yeah, this game was rough during parts of its life."
I've been playing GW2 pretty regularly since launch. It's top tier quality now, but when the game first hit, it was such a fucking shitshow that I'm not surprised it turned people away.
I've been playing GW2 pretty regularly since launch. It's top tier quality now, but when the game first hit, it was such a fucking shitshow that I'm not surprised it turned people away.
Never felt like healers and tanks though, more like someone could at any time start mitigating damage and take less but you seemingly couldn't intentionally hold the attention of monsters from the rest of your group.
And what I saw of potential "healers" was very small effects compared to the Self-Healing skill everyone came equipped with.
The game is turning 5 years soon...
I mean they totally ignore 2/3 of the original. Cantha and Elona are not in the game because of dragons that never show up in the game.
mcz117chief
Member
There is no Guild Wars 2, only a game which bares the name.
I am a huge fan of Guild Wars (which I still play) so I occasionally jump back into GW2 just to see where it is and it honestly feels almost exactly the same as when the game released. The meat of the game, combat, is still amazingly boring and tripe compared to Guild Wars.
I am a huge fan of Guild Wars (which I still play) so I occasionally jump back into GW2 just to see where it is and it honestly feels almost exactly the same as when the game released. The meat of the game, combat, is still amazingly boring and tripe compared to Guild Wars.
I've played it on and off for years, including coming back for the expansion and going deep on it. It wasn't anything to do with the launch (I thought GW2 had a great launch). For me and my group, its about the fact the fundamental group combat model for the game doesn't work and isn't fun - and Arena seems fine with that.
Melon Husk
Member
I preferred GW1 so why'd I settle for a downgraded experience?
deadscreensky
Member
I still play the game a bunch, but the three biggest popularity issues I've seen come down to:
1. Heart of Thorns was an extremely divisive, unpopular expansion. It wasn't just light on traditional MMO content, much of it was contrary to GW2's own unique design goals. They've really fixed it up and the post-launch content has been fantastic, but they probably launched six months too early and that turned off a bunch of existing players.
2. GW2 was deliberately designed in opposition to a lot of MMO standards and player expectations. It's not supposed to be a game you spend hours grinding every week, and if like many players that's what you want from an MMO you're going to be disappointed. (It also was designed completely differently from GW1 -- I eventually came to terms with this, but I can understand why many fans didn't.)
3. Most of the game's content was too easy for long periods of its life. That's probably why you see players suggest nonsense like healers aren't important, there's no (soft) trinity, and so on -- the combat has only very rarely required you to actually put these elements to their proper use. There's some good challenging content in the game now, but too much of it is at the edges of the experience so this remains a big problem today. I understand the developers don't want the game to be too harsh on inexperienced players, but they'd probably benefit from throwing in some rare stuff that just really smacks the average player down, demonstrating that yes, there is a higher level of skillful play in there.
1. Heart of Thorns was an extremely divisive, unpopular expansion. It wasn't just light on traditional MMO content, much of it was contrary to GW2's own unique design goals. They've really fixed it up and the post-launch content has been fantastic, but they probably launched six months too early and that turned off a bunch of existing players.
2. GW2 was deliberately designed in opposition to a lot of MMO standards and player expectations. It's not supposed to be a game you spend hours grinding every week, and if like many players that's what you want from an MMO you're going to be disappointed. (It also was designed completely differently from GW1 -- I eventually came to terms with this, but I can understand why many fans didn't.)
3. Most of the game's content was too easy for long periods of its life. That's probably why you see players suggest nonsense like healers aren't important, there's no (soft) trinity, and so on -- the combat has only very rarely required you to actually put these elements to their proper use. There's some good challenging content in the game now, but too much of it is at the edges of the experience so this remains a big problem today. I understand the developers don't want the game to be too harsh on inexperienced players, but they'd probably benefit from throwing in some rare stuff that just really smacks the average player down, demonstrating that yes, there is a higher level of skillful play in there.
Cantha didn't have any of the six dragons. Its geography, how far it is from the rest of the game world, kind of screws it here.
Elona is releasing sometime this year. We should be getting a trailer in the next month or so.
We've been dealing with two other dragons this season, though I don't think you'd find that to be what you're looking for. It was a little deus ex machina towards the end, though it does clearly demonstrate they haven't been ignoring them.
At this point the only dragon that hasn't been especially focused on is the underwater dragon. Everybody presumes that's mostly down to them figuring out what they want to do with with their much-hated underwater combat.
Elona is releasing sometime this year. We should be getting a trailer in the next month or so.
We've been dealing with two other dragons this season, though I don't think you'd find that to be what you're looking for. It was a little deus ex machina towards the end, though it does clearly demonstrate they haven't been ignoring them.
At this point the only dragon that hasn't been especially focused on is the underwater dragon. Everybody presumes that's mostly down to them figuring out what they want to do with with their much-hated underwater combat.
I'm really not sure what it's supposed to be if not that. That's literally all there is to do in the game. It's fun but grinding is THE endgame. It was designed to be the anti-wow, but it does all the same things badly that every wow clone does, while doing very few of the good things well. Still a fun game despite that, but it's kind of vapid most of the time.
NormalFish
Banned
people do it all the time in raids. I understand that this wasn't true on release, but in the current game, this is just false.
No Trinity = Chaos in battles. Enemies running all over the place to hit whoever. It was incredibly frustrating. There was nothing to do once you hit level 80, though that's likely changed in the time since I've touched it. I spent most of my time doing WvW because the combat just didn't really seem to work for group PvE, but made total sense for PvP imo.
Jumping Puzzles are legitimately the best thing in the game.
Truth-Facts
no...
I'm kind of shocked people are so down on the game. I keep trying different MMOs, but ultimately I always go back go GW2. Pretty sure I'm over 2000 hours now.
I really enjoy the exploration aspect of the game. The gliding, bounce mushrooms, etc that have been added since the expansion make exploring even better. In stuff like Archeage and Blade and Soul the gliding felt ancillary since it was mostly a way to avoid terrain elements in the playable space the game had, but the expansion and later maps in GW2 has them as useful shortcuts and a necessary aspect to navigate multi-tiered zones. In many ways it feels more like a 3D platformer and the other MMOs that I'ved tried that have attempted any level of platforming often feel clunky.
The lack of a gear treadmill is a major factor in why I keep going back. I've occasionally tried to go back to Blade and Soul, but when I see how far behind I am (even as they sometimes implement "shortcuts" for gearing up) it kills my interest whereas I can pretty much jump into whatever new content Guild Wars 2 has when it drops.
And despite what seems to be the consensus on GAF, I really enjoy the combat. I feel like it's fluid, offers a fair degree of customization, and has play styles that vary between classes. I think Blade and Soul technically has better action combat since it slides closer to fighting games with things like I-frames, but it's much more latency dependent plus it seems to have poor optimization. Even with a decent mid-tier PC, putting it on toaster settings still has performance issues (especially with more than 5-6 players on screen). So ultimately I give the crown to GW2 because of its more consistent performance. I also played BDO a bit, but never hit starting level cap so I'm hesitant to speak about its combat (I focused on fishing and trade cart runs). I do remember that up to like lv 40 I felt the enemies were pretty brain dead so despite an impressive combat system, there was no real push for me to utilize it.
I also like that I can do pretty much everything in the game with my friends. Going to other games it's shocking to remember how often they push you into solo story instances and the like (currently looking at you FFXIV). Guild wars 2 let's you bring your party. They don't even have to be on the same story step.
I can understand the perspective of people who liked GW1 as GW2 is different in so many ways. I'd personally love a modern GW1, but I also really appreciate what GW2 brought to the table. The customization options in GW1 were amazing and I miss it dearly. Arena net's reasoning has been that it's hard to balance, which I'm sure it was, but I'd still like to see them take another crack at it.
And despite my gushing, I've got my own personal laundry list of things missing from the game/ need improvement (build templates, underwater combat, lack of new cosmetic armor, etc). Still I think it's a great game so its surprising to me that so many Gaffers seem to dislike it.
I really enjoy the exploration aspect of the game. The gliding, bounce mushrooms, etc that have been added since the expansion make exploring even better. In stuff like Archeage and Blade and Soul the gliding felt ancillary since it was mostly a way to avoid terrain elements in the playable space the game had, but the expansion and later maps in GW2 has them as useful shortcuts and a necessary aspect to navigate multi-tiered zones. In many ways it feels more like a 3D platformer and the other MMOs that I'ved tried that have attempted any level of platforming often feel clunky.
The lack of a gear treadmill is a major factor in why I keep going back. I've occasionally tried to go back to Blade and Soul, but when I see how far behind I am (even as they sometimes implement "shortcuts" for gearing up) it kills my interest whereas I can pretty much jump into whatever new content Guild Wars 2 has when it drops.
And despite what seems to be the consensus on GAF, I really enjoy the combat. I feel like it's fluid, offers a fair degree of customization, and has play styles that vary between classes. I think Blade and Soul technically has better action combat since it slides closer to fighting games with things like I-frames, but it's much more latency dependent plus it seems to have poor optimization. Even with a decent mid-tier PC, putting it on toaster settings still has performance issues (especially with more than 5-6 players on screen). So ultimately I give the crown to GW2 because of its more consistent performance. I also played BDO a bit, but never hit starting level cap so I'm hesitant to speak about its combat (I focused on fishing and trade cart runs). I do remember that up to like lv 40 I felt the enemies were pretty brain dead so despite an impressive combat system, there was no real push for me to utilize it.
I also like that I can do pretty much everything in the game with my friends. Going to other games it's shocking to remember how often they push you into solo story instances and the like (currently looking at you FFXIV). Guild wars 2 let's you bring your party. They don't even have to be on the same story step.
I can understand the perspective of people who liked GW1 as GW2 is different in so many ways. I'd personally love a modern GW1, but I also really appreciate what GW2 brought to the table. The customization options in GW1 were amazing and I miss it dearly. Arena net's reasoning has been that it's hard to balance, which I'm sure it was, but I'd still like to see them take another crack at it.
And despite my gushing, I've got my own personal laundry list of things missing from the game/ need improvement (build templates, underwater combat, lack of new cosmetic armor, etc). Still I think it's a great game so its surprising to me that so many Gaffers seem to dislike it.
deadscreensky
Member
Let me rephrase: it's not a game where you are encouraged to grind. You reach your power cap fairly early on. The ultimate, strongest equipment in the game was released back in 2013. The level cap remains the same it was at launch. No future expansion is changing either of these facts. So while they occasionally add minor new power elements like new stat types or mastery skills, the vast majority of any additional grinding is completely pointless in terms of gameplay. You can grind out Tarir defenses and raids all you want, but that's not going to make your character stronger or give you access to new stuff.
Guild Wars 2 is a huge game, but it's very deliberately designed to not have the sort of carrots and sticks most other MMOs use to maintain player retention. You can skip out on the game for months at a time and come back just as powerful. Fashion Wars 2 is only there if you want that -- in the larger scheme of things it's entirely meaningless. (Yeah, I know we're talking about virtual stuff here regardless. I'm sure you understand my distinction.)
The lack of any sort of power creep and the associated grind is simply not something a lot of MMO fans actually want from their MMOs. It's a turn-off for a huge portion of the potential audience.
Yeah, the way the game has been shifting towards a larger focus on platforming has been really interesting. Much of that stuff was in the game at launch, of course, but since Heart of Thorns they've clearly been focusing on taking it from a fringe activity into something very central to the rest of the experience. In many fights the platforming has genuinely become another pillar of the combat system, and that really gives it a unique feel. It's such a smart elaboration on their no mounts game design.
The new maps this season have been particularly cool. I'm already missing my vine grappling hook before the next map is even unveiled. I'm incredibly curious how they can top gliding in the new expansion.
I agree with most of the rest of what you said too. Only thing I'll add is that I feel GAF was really big on GW2 until the expansion. Launching like it did turned off a huge portion of players.
Combat felt very gutless.
I played Warrior 2h greatsword and even that felt like it had 0 impact.
The content updates were frequent, sure, but they were basically nothing. They also added a TON of grinding.
The only real end game goal, the legendary weapon had a legendary grind that also depended on RNG.
The end of the game was the worst part of the game, the leveling experience was pretty darn good. The story was ass.
I played Warrior 2h greatsword and even that felt like it had 0 impact.
The content updates were frequent, sure, but they were basically nothing. They also added a TON of grinding.
The only real end game goal, the legendary weapon had a legendary grind that also depended on RNG.
The end of the game was the worst part of the game, the leveling experience was pretty darn good. The story was ass.
Looking back, I don't think there is a single design concept in GW2 that actually worked.
Personally it's just to obsessed with making me collect garbage to make money to buy what I want from the AH. That's no fun and a good way to get me burned out from a game.
I also felt that, especially with the expansion, they started to have a serious button bloat problem.
Personally it's just to obsessed with making me collect garbage to make money to buy what I want from the AH. That's no fun and a good way to get me burned out from a game.
I also felt that, especially with the expansion, they started to have a serious button bloat problem.
it's pretty fun. if someone is on the fence they should check it out. i quit playing heavily before heart of thorns though, probably logged in a few times afterward to check things out
reasons i quit:
reasons i quit:
- dungeons abandoned: AC got reworked, there was aetherpath, and then...nothing despite promises to rework all dungeons
- few non-gemstore armor sets added to the game during the time i played
- but in the end they quit even adding armor through the gemstore, as they started selling only outfits instead of armors
- no efforts made to improve charr armor/clipping/horns
- not caring about legendary effects while using engineer kits even though engineers spend most of the time using a kit.
- WvW was an afterthought the entire time i played, looks like they finally added ascended rewards to WvW. are people happy with the new WvW? has the overhaul greatly improved the WvW experience?
- very minor one, female human idle animations removed for like 2 years, they couldn't be arsed to add them back in during the time i played. a quick search looks like they're still not back in (so make it nearly 3 years, not two). not personally a big huge deal to me, just a symptom of them not caring about little stuff that may be important to some people
ramuh
Member
God I had so much fun with this game and my guild. I actually like the instanced levels.
D
Deleted member 325805
Unconfirmed Member
I played it for a year solo and enjoyed it, definitely the best MMO after WoW that I've played.
Guild Wars 2 isn't popular because its combat system is an embarrassment for MMOs everywhere. And it gets even worse when you party up.
I really liked exploring that world, filling out the stylish map and doing jumping puzzles, but I'd always sigh when I had to fight something.
I really liked exploring that world, filling out the stylish map and doing jumping puzzles, but I'd always sigh when I had to fight something.
Acerac
Banned
That's why I don't play it. The dungeon system just felt like disorganized nonsense.
Unless it's WoW or FFXIV you'd find that most of GAF dont care about MMOs, so thats why the game isnt popular around here. The game is constantly in the top 3 of most Best MMOs lists, so yeah it must be doing something right.
To me the game appeals in ways FFXIV or WoW, don't. That means zero gear treadmill, no endless grinding of raids, no absolutely shittastic quest design (FFXIV had some of the worst questing I've ever seen in a MMO, the road from 2.0 to Heavensward turned me off the game in ways few games have managed to do)
Not having the screen cluttered with UI addons to keep up your damage at respactable levels is also a plus since the PvE is mostly a relaxing experience.
The world design IMO is great. I like the jumping puzzles, looking for vistas, partaking in events. Everything feels super organic, and streamlined.
To me the game appeals in ways FFXIV or WoW, don't. That means zero gear treadmill, no endless grinding of raids, no absolutely shittastic quest design (FFXIV had some of the worst questing I've ever seen in a MMO, the road from 2.0 to Heavensward turned me off the game in ways few games have managed to do)
Not having the screen cluttered with UI addons to keep up your damage at respactable levels is also a plus since the PvE is mostly a relaxing experience.
The world design IMO is great. I like the jumping puzzles, looking for vistas, partaking in events. Everything feels super organic, and streamlined.
Yep, love me some Spiderman powers, but it requires a very specific kind of enclosed map design to prevent players from breaking out. Even then I still broke out of Draconis Mons several times.
I know GW2 had a strong guild and community thread that lasted for several years. Claiming the guild hall with them was one of my gaming highlights. However I've felt that while that core group was very dedicated to the game, any time a GW2 thread made its way over to gaming side it turned negative very quickly. A tradition that endures even to this day.
There are only five, maybe six MMOs out there I'd say are even worth playing(GW2 being one of them even though it didn't do anything for me), so it showing up near the top of some lists is no surprise.
All the praise for the jumping puzzles and exploration makes GW2 sound less like a MMORPG and more like a MMOPlatformer. Always hear about how great the jumping puzzles are, but rarely hear praise for much else. Might be why I couldn't get into it as the last time I cared for platformers was PS2(Jak and Daxter), though I have yet to try Ori and the Blind Forest . .
I played the beta, I think it was open beta?
I didn't like the class design at all. And the 'scaling zones' and area questing stuff was completely unimpressive to me. In the end I didn't enjoy the combat nor the leveling NOR any one of the classes.
I dumped it before it went live, didn't even buy the retail copy after that beta experience. I only gave it a shot because I played some GW1 and found it pretty innovative and interesting.... But that sequel? Ugh....
Ill never forget raging and laughing at the same time in PvP during the beta when in PvP I "died" but was in some state where I was on the ground and had to slam keys to throw pebbles at my attacker in the hopes of 'recovering'.....
Whoever designed that garbage needs to be slapped. I ran away from that game as fast as I could.
I didn't like the class design at all. And the 'scaling zones' and area questing stuff was completely unimpressive to me. In the end I didn't enjoy the combat nor the leveling NOR any one of the classes.
I dumped it before it went live, didn't even buy the retail copy after that beta experience. I only gave it a shot because I played some GW1 and found it pretty innovative and interesting.... But that sequel? Ugh....
Ill never forget raging and laughing at the same time in PvP during the beta when in PvP I "died" but was in some state where I was on the ground and had to slam keys to throw pebbles at my attacker in the hopes of 'recovering'.....
Whoever designed that garbage needs to be slapped. I ran away from that game as fast as I could.