FINAL FANTASY XVI |OT| Ifrit Bleeds We Can Kill It

Are you playing in Quality or Performance mode?

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I must admit, this is the most fun I've had with a game in a long time.

The only time I've had a negative thought about the game is when the story slows down a little too much, but then I mostly enjoy the lore building, which I think is the purpose of the side quests. I especially appreciate the pause menu lore that changes depending on the scene - great idea.

The game is constantly beautiful (some of the open areas are stunning) and I love the art style in general. And the music… wow.

Also, these may be my favourite game characters since Uncharted and TLOU - they're all so memorable.
 
I disagree with the notion that combat is shallow in either this or TOTK.

It's not shallow in either but you can get through both games by using only the most basic of the combat mechanics that either game gives you.

The same can even me said of the souls games but the enemy and encounter design forces you out if that pretty quickly, so unless you're an absolute madman you would never play those games using only dodge and light attacks.

I just spent the last 30 minutes in the hall of virtue testing out various mechanics and a few new abilities and the combat in this is anything but shallow, especially with the various timings. There's actually quite a bit of depth here but unless the difficulty increases I'll be forced to use the various mechanics out of choice (in order to keep things entertaining) rather due to the game itself forcing me down that path by design.

That to me is a shame because it means lazy players (or those who have a horrible habit of rushing through games asap, consume consume) will not explore what's on offer and will dismiss the combat. Very much in the same way that so many people dismissed Prey 2017 as a shooter game because "it gives you guns so I'm just going to shoot bang".

With what's on offer they needed to give players the opportunity to fine tune the type of experience they want from the start a lot more.
 
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While people are arguing about the combat I still can't get over how bad the quest design continues to be. This game is legit an MMO with 20% amazing single player adventure
 
Loving it. It has its flaws: a few technicals, side quests are mostly dumb and the world could be richer with more stuff to interact/discover. Im around 15h in but as I said loving it, probably gonna be my personal goty.
 
Some of the best story bits and rewards are hidden behind the side quests, been reading about a lot of people skipping pretty much all of them.
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I wouldn't.

NG+ raises the difficulty by changing mob positions and actually adding new mobs. They spoke about this at length. Final Fantasy mode makes it even harder and is required to get the Plat trophy.

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Return of the king!
 
Master Theo/Theodore looks like what a properly groomed older Clive would've been.

Meifu said:
While people are arguing about the combat I still can't get over how bad the quest design continues to be. This game is legit an MMO with 20% amazing single player adventure
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History shows that, whenever SE puts a team that already has a foot in another FF spin-off/MMO, there will be aspects strongly surfacing from their experiences.
  • FFXII has a distinct feel of FFT/offline MMO
  • FFXIII takes queues from FFX, Toriyama and team coming from it
  • FFXV, very KH aligned (the modern setting is probably something Nomura always wanted to do) even in the face of its tumultuous dev history and director change
  • FFXVI is going to bear strong similarities to XIV as a result of the business unit's makeup.
 
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TheKremlinBossMan said:
From what I have been reading here and around the net people are skipping all but the MSQ. I can't wait until someone says "Wtf SE why can't I ride a chocobo? 1/10 game." not knowing they skipped it in a side quest. Oh well.
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Not to mention the side quests in general help explain much of the world, its citizens, and how the world functions with and without the use of magic (bearers vs nonbearers, etc).

So many times I have read people discuss the narrative prior to where I am at and all their questions are easily answered in side quests that they skip, gloss over, or ignore entirely.
 
EviLore said:
Regular enemies: burn your specials, they melt, do coup de grace as necessary. You win.

Bosses: cycle through specials to perform max stagger damage and r1 any major attacks. When staggered, limit break to increase basic attack dps and heal, spam square while your specials refresh. When stagger finishes, cycle through specials again to re-stagger. You'll typically have full limit meter again by the next stagger.

That's about it. There's not much asked of you in terms of timing, reactions, learning patterns, or execution. It can be handy to do the wind counter or heatwave projectile counter at times but you can easily ignore that and burn all your specials whenever they're off cooldown to get the same result.

It's mechanically too simple. The bombastic major boss battles are cool because of how cinematic and dynamic they are, which elevates them. But the systems are not nearly as good as they need to be for a character action game, and the RPG systems are too stripped down to make up for it.
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It's valid but I love feeling super powerful in this game. I still find it somewhat challenging but not in a difficult way like souls.
I don't play every game for difficulty.
And I kinda dislike the notion of having to make every game for some not existing hardcore players.
I play games my whole life and what is happening in this game, while simple mechanically, is by no means easy game. Hogwarts legacy is easy (and very pleasant love it).

To be honest one fear of mine is that every game is turning into souls games for super humans or streamers spectacle. I finished all souls and sekiro and whatnot but I am tired at the thought of every game being this straining lol.
What's here is fine. Simple but you gotta know what abilities to use and what to save to maximise damage output like you described. You are an experienced gamer so you know that.

I recon there are harder difficulty modes.
 
EviLore said:
Yes, I use the circle button on wind at half stagger. You get a few extra seconds of free hits in exchange for watching a long cutscene of Clive yanking on the boss, which barely seems worth it. It's also not something that requires execution. The timing window is on the order of 5-10 seconds and it's an automatic complete if you press the button in range. Are we really going to describe this as requiring mastery?

Before limit break unlocked I focused on maximizing stagger damage multiplier, but by saving your specials until after stagger resets and using limit break for damage during stagger you burn through the boss's stagger bar more quickly and effectively use all your limit break damage on free hits while healing, without worrying about incoming damage. If you use limit break otherwise then the boss is attacking you and moving around a lot, there's a bunch of flames everywhere obfuscating the action, etc.
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Pressing circle at 50% doesn't require mastery, no. But timing your counter moves absolutely does, and the rewards for doing so are pretty meaningful. And I didn't even get into parrying, which admittedly, I don't have the skill to pull off reliably because the window for those is extremely small.

Will 100% agree on limit break effects removing the ability to see what is going on, which is why I never use it unless I can use it safely. I make frequent mistakes, but I'm getting better at the game. When my counters are pulled off well, bosses melt. When I screw up and lose my rhythm, I'm reduced to using my special attacks earlier than I'd like to get the stagger meter down, and then use my limit break in the stagger window instead. And I do a lot less damage as a consequence.

I dunno man, the game isn't exactly towing the strategic depth I'd get from a Pathfinder RPG, but I wouldn't characterize the game being as shallow as you make it sound. You claim the counters aren't worth it, and yet, the damage difference between successful counter gameplay versus unsuccessful are significant. And this is strictly from the three eikons I have so far.
 
rofif said:
And I kinda dislike the notion of having to make every game for some not existing hardcore players.
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GAF is extremely out of touch with normal gaming and has been for years. The fact that literally no one on GAF has apparently ever played a phone game is proof of this. In the real world, phone games are the biggest game market and dwarfs consoles by a vast margin.

There are no "hardcore" Final Fantasy players. It's a mainstream franchise for normal gamers and has been for it's entire existence. It's a franchise for people who play God of War, Horizon, Uncharted, etc. The default difficulty level will reflect the mainstream targeting of the game.

Now why the Hard difficulty is only unlocked on second playthrough, that's a good question to ask the devs. But insofar as the Normal difficulty level is concerned, it is exactly right for the target audience of a mainstream franchise.
 
MISTER INVEIGLER said:
I really think they made a huge mistake by making that a side quest. I almost missed it myself.
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It was a test to see if you were paying attention or not.

It was a very unusually marked sidequest with a special green bubble that had a + inside it. All the other sidequests in the game don't have the + in the bubble.

Seems a surprising number of gamers failed that test, probably the same ones who think the game's combat sucks because you can just mash Square and win.
 
I'm 57% complete with the game after a huge fight in the game.

My opinion after playing half way so far is,

It's a 7/10 game with 10/10 moments.

Hopefully by the time the game is completed, It'll be a 8/10 game for me.
 
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gonna waits for a sale maybe I need to decides

Demo combat felt like watered down easy DMC and lots of people are sayings its not hard if combats all this games has it has to bees challenging shallow jankry running
 
EviLore said:
There's no tension in the combat and you barely have to pay attention to what's going on to win. If you find that to be more mechanically engaging than Elden Ring then I question whether you've played Elden Ring, tbh. Short of cheesing the game, Elden Ring requires you to focus and master the game's systems to succeed.
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I love Elden Ring, but lets be honest: "mastering the game's systems" is knowing when to dodge or roll before striking

What changes from one battle to the other is the enemies attack pattern. So you have to dodge, roll and strike at a specific time, but you'll kill every enemy by rolling, dodging and striking.

FF XVI has way more options in how to engage in battle. To me, it's a fact. If they are engaging or not to you, thats another story.
 
MISTER INVEIGLER said:
I really think they made a huge mistake by making that a side quest. I almost missed it myself.
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For ppl that played 14, every side quest with a plus sign is a "must do" quest, every + quest in 14 ll unlock something in the game ( dungeons, trials, raids and more ) that the MSQ wont unlock it.

Remember + quest are MSQ in disguise, do all of them.

Edit. Clive outfit after receiving all this marks.
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Hugare said:
I love Elden Ring, but lets be honest: "mastering the game's systems" is knowing when to dodge or roll before striking

What changes from one battle to the other is the enemies attack pattern. So you have to dodge, roll and strike at a specific time, but you'll kill every enemy by rolling, dodging and striking.

FF XVI has way more options in how to engage in battle. To me, it's a fact. If they are engaging or not to you, thats another story.
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If you ignore all the abilities, spells, and items in the game, as well as all the differences between each build and weapon. The difference is that everything matters there, the timings all matter, the damage output matters, the positioning matters, the recovery matters, of every single attack and ability. Your synapses need to be fully firing and considering all of it to succeed. That is engagement with the game's mechanics.

Give me a break if you think XVI is anywhere in the same universe as that level of engagement. Barely anything matters in XVI.
 
Their focus seems to be on materials and the mapping techniques, fabrics and metals are actually quite impressive. I would assume the next entry will focus on more accurate lighting (perhaps RT will have matured enough for hardware to perform and run calculations much more quickly) and cascade shadows.

For now, trees slowly fading between LOD and long draw/distant shadows needs more work especially the latter as it's quite grating to see.
 
I'm only 6 hours in but as of today I can really dive in. Got the tempest roar at level 94 in Diablo 4 so I can slow down towards 100.

Feel like I'm free lol.

Game has been amazing so far. Clive is a boss.
 
Danjin44 said:
I'm baffled at people calling the combat "shallow" I feel I'm playing different than these people.
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There is a group of people who basically think that "not Soulslike = shallow". They don't understand creative combat systems like DMC, Bayo, and this game. I like both of those styles but they are completely different.

EviLore said:
If you ignore all the abilities, spells, and items in the game, as well as all the differences between each build and weapon. The difference is that everything matters there, the timings all matter, the damage output matters, the positioning matters, the recovery matters, of every single attack and ability. Your synapses need to be fully firing and considering all of it to succeed. That is engagement with the game's mechanics.

Give me a break if you think XVI is anywhere in the same universe as that level of engagement. Barely anything matters in XVI.
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There is a fundamental disagreement in design philosophy between Souls-style action and FFXVI (DMC) style action. If you only consider what is required of the player, then Souls will be deeper. If you use all of the tools available to you, then FFXVI will be deeper.

Souls: higher skill floor, lower skill ceiling
DMC/FFXVI: lower skill floor, higher skill ceiling

Some people find creativity in combat appealing and some people don't (they want to be explicitly directed to some degree by challenge).
 
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decisions said:
There is a group of people who basically think that "not Soulslike = shallow". They don't understand creative combat systems like DMC, Bayo, and this game. I like both of those styles but they are completely different.
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I completely agree, I love Souls series but those are not ONLY type of game exist in gaming, it feels like if not its not like Souls game then its not good game.

Unfortunately most of the so called "professional" journalist do this as well....
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/game...e-game-is-not-enough-like-elden-ring.1658163/

I'm really starting get sick of it.
 
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EviLore said:
If you ignore all the abilities, spells, and items in the game, as well as all the differences between each build and weapon. The difference is that everything matters there, the timings all matter, the damage output matters, the positioning matters, the recovery matters, of every single attack and ability. Your synapses need to be fully firing and considering all of it to succeed. That is engagement with the game's mechanics.

Give me a break if you think XVI is anywhere in the same universe as that level of engagement. Barely anything matters in XVI.
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Spells that are bound to specific builds? "Abilities" that completely change the gameplay, such as? Weapons that have different stats and striking time, sure, that basically plays the same.

At the end of the day, if you arent a spellcaster, your bread and butter will be rolling, dodging and striking in all other builds. Timing may vary depending on your weight and etc., but thats it.

I finished Elden Ring using basically the same spear because I couldnt give a damn about making a very unique build and all that, and still had a great time. Finished the game with the same roll/dodge/strike combo throughout the whole fucking thing.

The difference with Elden Ring is that if you dont play by the game's rules (timing your dodges, striking when its the right moment) you die. Not so much in FF XVI. You can finish the game by playing the most boring way, or using all the game's systems.

Another game like that? Devil May Cry V from the same combat designer. You can finish the game using the same old combo, but whats the fun in that?

Its like finishing DOOM with the starter pistol and complaining about the game's combat later
 
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Man so much of this game feels like it's corridor after corridor. Walk for a few minutes, control taken away AGAIN for a cutscene or tooltip, fight a handful of enemies in a small room or arena.

Story is alright but man skillups review is spot on so far
 
At this point I've found this best way to play this is the mash X when its available in a talking section and blitz to combat sections
 
decisions said:
There is a group of people who basically think that "not Soulslike = shallow". They don't understand creative combat systems like DMC, Bayo, and this game. I like both of those styles but they are completely different.



There is a fundamental disagreement in design philosophy between Souls-style action and FFXVI (DMC) style action. If you only consider what is required of the player, then Souls will be deeper. If you use all of the tools available to you, then FFXVI will be deeper.

Souls: higher skill floor, lower skill ceiling
DMC/FFXVI: lower skill floor, higher skill ceiling

Some people find creativity in combat appealing and some people don't (they want to be explicitly directed to some degree by challenge).
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Souls games have a low skill ceiling and FFXVI has a high skill ceiling? I've heard everything now.
 
Unknown Soldier said:
GAF is extremely out of touch with normal gaming and has been for years. The fact that literally no one on GAF has apparently ever played a phone game is proof of this. In the real world, phone games are the biggest game market and dwarfs consoles by a vast margin.

There are no "hardcore" Final Fantasy players. It's a mainstream franchise for normal gamers and has been for it's entire existence. It's a franchise for people who play God of War, Horizon, Uncharted, etc. The default difficulty level will reflect the mainstream targeting of the game.

Now why the Hard difficulty is only unlocked on second playthrough, that's a good question to ask the devs. But insofar as the Normal difficulty level is concerned, it is exactly right for the target audience of a mainstream franchise.
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Its locked behind NG+ as the way it tunes the enemies and their abilities requires you to have certain abilities to stand a chance - at least that is what I have heard. I should be able to try it out myself within a couple days. nearing the end of the game.

Things like being able to deal with buffs, casters using protection spells to shield physical damage, bosses requiring smart use of limit break, your abilities, managing torgal, etc.

Heck, some of the S Rank fights if you do them as soon as their available showcase this to a good degree. I have a feeling most folks may be skipping them.
 
The battle system really started to click once I got the second set of abilities. I started setting up huge combo chains, using abilities at the right times to force the enemies in a staggered state quicky then unleashing all available specials to quickly whittle down health. I just did the first arcade mode mission and got S ranks the whole way through. Felt good.
 
You guys are not prepared for the OPness of the last Eikon.

On contrast I'm pissed off that Garuda falls off so hard in the endgame compared to every other Eikon, which is a shame cause it's easily the best Eikon for aerial combos and I love doing those but it's hard to go for style when the last Eikons just melt everything xD
 
KàIRóS said:
You guys are not prepared for the OPness of the last Eikon.

On contrast I'm pissed off that Garuda falls off so hard in the endgame compared to every other Eikon, which is a shame cause it's easily the best Eikon for aerial combos and I love doing those but it's hard to go for style when the last Eikons just melt everything xD
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Apparently that doesn't mean much come NG+. The "OP Ness" of those abilities goes away and instead its entirely dependent on your preferred playstyle. Like I don't think I would ever get rid of Rook's Gambit. Its just too great for counters and removing large chunks of the stagger meter.
 
Combat in this game is amazing. It opens up with a lot more creative options once you unlock more abilities and elements and can switch and flow between them without having to wait on cooldowns.

Comparing it to Elden ring (which is focused on melee combat that demands mastery of mechanics, pattern recognition, and balancing defensive and offensive play) or TOTK (which keeps the core combat system simple but grafts on a sandbox of possibilities to allow players infinite options for each encounter) is missing the point. It's not trying to be like either of those. FF16 isn't asking you to commit to your action and punishing you if you made an error of judgment, and it's not asking you to exploit physics and chemistry sandbox elements to give yourself the edge. The whole point is that it lets you figure out the most stylish way to take out some pretty badass enemies in spectacle set piece fights. And it does that amazingly.

Elden ring and TOTK combat can be great without FF16 combat having to not be great you know, it's not a zero sum game. All three games achieve what they set out to do with combat well.
 
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Just completed the mission at the Phoenix Gate Ruins, Buried Memories. Some epic shit. I love the part it says...

"Discover the Truth" and then you L3+R3 and unlock Clive's Limit Break. Thought that was a really impactful moment along with the, "You're not Ifrit, I AM."

Like I said before, this game has the highest highs.
 
Have Square said if there are any plans for DLC or expansions for the game or is it a one-and-done release ?
 
How could that have gone unnoticed by me?

The entire fight against Necrophobe, from the background imagery and setting to temperature is a very obvious nod to FFV's Interdimensional Rift. All they needed to add was some Movers. 😂

Its abilities are too a nod: Dualcasting various elemental spells alongside the Mystic Knight's Spellblade ability (Enfiraga/Enthundaga/Enblizzaga).
 
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EviLore said:
If you ignore all the abilities, spells, and items in the game, as well as all the differences between each build and weapon. The difference is that everything matters there, the timings all matter, the damage output matters, the positioning matters, the recovery matters, of every single attack and ability. Your synapses need to be fully firing and considering all of it to succeed. That is engagement with the game's mechanics.

Give me a break if you think XVI is anywhere in the same universe as that level of engagement. Barely anything matters in XVI.
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Those features are more RPG like elements. They're not combat mechanics. So, if you consider tweaking builds to be engagement, sure, but the basic combat mechanics? I don't think so, ER is not in the same universe mechanically. And that's fine, the two games aren't attempting anywhere close the same sort of vibe to them.

I would say that things matter in ER a little too much in the sense that you can easily get OP and just cheese the entire game after a certain point, removing the tension the game attempts to achieve. I one shotted the hardest boss in the game and didn't even realize I was too OP at that point, and it really devolved into doing some basic repetitive moves with far less engagement into the mechanics.

But again, different vibes. ER is trying to be all things to everyone in some sense while proving the tension the series is known for, but it's certainly not "peak ACTION combat" which is what FFXVI is getting closer to. I appreciate both approaches for different reasons. Sometimes I want to play a game where I can get into the zone like this and enjoy the epic scale and bombast the series is known for and does better than almost every single game. Others, I want to be punished and dread even minor encounters depite putting up with quite a bit of jank along the way.
 
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James Sawyer Ford said:
Those features are more RPG like elements. They're not combat mechanics. So, if you consider tweaking builds to be engagement, sure, but the basic combat mechanics? I don't think so, ER is not in the same universe mechanically.
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They're absolutely part of the combat mechanics. They're movesets and abilities with widely varying properties. We're getting way off-topic though and I don't want to keep going so heavy on the negativity toward XVI in the OT, either, since it's intended to be for people generally enjoying the game.
 
EviLore said:
They're absolutely part of the combat mechanics. They're movesets and abilities with widely varying properties. We're getting way off-topic though and I don't want to keep going so heavy on the negativity toward XVI in the OT, either, since it's intended to be for people generally enjoying the game.
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Yeah no doubt FF16 won't click with everyone, it's a dramatic shift in what the series is known for.

I personally love it though, and think with some tweaks this approach could jive more with those that want more RPG elements. I had my expectations anchored towards it being mostly action so came away happy with what we ended up with, especially since I greatly enjoy the streamlined approach it has after playing some really massive titles as of late. I wanted story, AAA music/production, and great action combat and to me it nailed all those aspects but certainly there's some flaws that may make or break it for some.
 
The rings of assistance.. so I realized that these things are doing half the job for me. I will turn them off and see if combat becomes somewhat of a challenge. Right now it's a cakewalk.
 
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