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[James Sawyer Ford]

While their reluctance to embrace the Pro last year made no sense for a tech oriented channel, their disappointment at the specs makes far more sense considering this is just a 45% upgrade for the GPU and 10% upgrade for the CPU. Way worse than the already paltry 30% upgrade for the PS4 Pro CPU and a large 125% upgrade to the GPU. And thats before the 25% IPC gains that we are NOT getting this gen. The PS4 Pro GPU was actually 5.2 GCN 1.1 tflops that put it at a near 200% or 3x GPU performance advantage over the base PS4.

The only reason why it didnt perform like that was because Cerny's genius idea was to bottleneck it with a mere 30% increase in vram bandwidth. A mistake he's repeating here with an even smaller 28% vram bandwidth increase. Lets not forget that the X1X was only 41% more powerful but ran A LOT of games at a full native 4k while PS4 Pro had to rely on poorly implemented 4kcb ports like RDR2. X1X with its 41% increase in GPU performance delivered a 100% increase in pixels because it was not bottlenecked by vram.

There is a lot to like here and they were very positive on the ray tracing and PSSR upgrade. If they were meh on those things which they werent, id understand your complaints. But I dont blame them for not being blown away by 45% GPU, 10% CPU and 28% vram bandwidth upgrades since we know most of them caused issues last gen.

What you call mistakes are in reality budgetary constraints

Cerny designed a PS4 Pro to create a cost effective, higher fidelity ps4

Mission accomplished. Same thing with the ps5 pro.

He is not designing a next gen system that's expected to meaningfully raise the bar in terms of gameplay logic on the CPU, because at the end of the day it's running PS5 developed games

Not PS6. PS5. This isn't difficult to comprehend

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

I love how MS releasing a new gen is somehow going to fix the problem that that the market just doesn't care a out xbox/gamepass. How many times are people going to keep saying this? It has been the same moving goal posts since the xbox one.

So you're saying its a very MS move and is likely happening

 

[MisterXDTV]

Yeah, thats called criticism.

Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more


crit·i·cism
/ˈkridəˌsizəm/
noun

1. 1.
   the expression of disapproval of someone or something based on perceived faults or mistakes.

You are painting him like totally incompetent at his job, that's not criticism

It's like saying Lewis Hamilton can't drive a car....

You can say it, but people will rightly laugh at you,

 

[Audiophile]

Unless it's purely a case of finalising the last few moving parts or most likely, having stuff to show. I don't see any other reason to wait too long for an announcement (or at least a soft reveal, tech talk or alluding to it).

I don't buy for one minute that announcing this soon would cannibalise sales. At worst it'd result in some PS5 base sales being lost now in favour of a PS5 Pro sales 6-8mths later. Double dippers are likely few and far between. Otherwise, people who are inclined towards a Pro either have or have had a PS5 already and will sell it on, or they don't have a base system and plan on buying a Pro now knowing it's 99.9% coming. Plus being a semi-premium item it kinda shifts the scale more in favour of a slightly earlier reveal.

I know this probably ain't happening, but ideally it'd be a Road To PS5 Pro tech talk in the next couple months with Cerny & Co with in-depth specs, reasoning, tech demos and a title or two shown briefly. Then a proper showcase in the latter mid Summer for new games, Pro-upgraded games and a hardware/price/release reveal; and then release in Sept-Nov.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

You are painting him like totally incompetent at his job, that's not criticism

It's like saying Lewis Hamilton can't drive a car....

You can say it, but people will rightly laugh at you,

It's like saying Toyota doesn't know how to design and build a car just because it's not a Ferrari

 

[SlimySnake]

You are painting him like totally incompetent at his job, that's not criticism

It's like saying Lewis Hamilton can't drive a car....

You can say it, but people will rightly laugh at you,

I never said he is incompetent at his job. I simply stated that DF's pessimism is warranted and you got your panties in a twist. Discussing hardware specs is literally the topic of this thread, if u r taking it so seriously where any criticism appears as a personal attack on a that person then you need to take a step back and reevaluate your ability to engage with others because that's literally what people do all day on gaf.

 

[Daneel Elijah]

I haven't heard anything new but your numbers are spot on to whats being mentioned

I bet we hear much more about this right before PS5 Pro launches just trying to give anyone doubts for someone maybe buying the Pro for the best GTA VI experience

Like James Sawyer Ford said its likely going to be expensive

I know I am by far in the minority but I will 100% drop even $1000 IF MS can launch nextbox close to GTA VI but if they don't I will pass on anything else Xbox has to offer moving forward

Can Microsoft convince Rockstar to make GTA 6 run well in the Series S and this next gen monster? We have seen Rockstar waiting years to make a native GTA 5 for Xbox and PS5 after all.
Another question, but maybe a stupid one, if Microsoft is really all in to do this strategy, can they convince Take Two to delay GTA 6 until they are ready, if they find that useful to them? I just got this idea yesterday and can't get it out of my mind.

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

When games take 5 years to make...that doesn't make much sense nowadays. If anything it's starting to make more sense to have longer generations.

It was much easier to market a PS1 to PS2 in 5 years than it is to market a PS4 to PS5 in 7. Those days are long gone.

Yes but a generations continual length isnt defined by how many games it has but by how long the console continues to sell. Sony is seeing PS5 sales slow faster than they initially forecasted, once sales are slow enough they need to have a new console around the corner or they risk their business.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

I simply stated that DF's pessimism is warranted

Not really, no.

They are optimistic about very marginal GPU increases

What reason is there to be pessimistic about a mid gen refresh? The cpu and gpu complaints are irrelevant when taking into account the fact that it's a refresh, not a new gen.

There's no need for a big cpu upgrade, this isn't jaguar, and the rendering issue isn't a problem either as base PS5 runs games at really high resolution in quality modes

Cerny is adequately addressing the biggest flaws at an efficient price and in 2024, midway through the gen. Same playbook as ps4 pro.

 

[sncvsrtoip]

I simply stated that DF's pessimism is warranted

From one person not all df ;d

 

[Venom Snake]

Y'all know shit. If PS5 Pro was even more powerful, the "beep" would split the chip in half.

 

[ChiefDada]

Come on man...you saw the trailer. There is no way that base ps5 is getting close to 60. Will be lucky for a stable 30 just like RDR2 on base PS4.

How do you so confidently identify the limitations of a proprietary engine just by looking at a trailer, especially on the topic of CPU utilization?

 

[JerryinSoCal]

I haven't heard anything new but your numbers are spot on to whats being mentioned

I bet we hear much more about this right before PS5 Pro launches just trying to give anyone doubts for someone maybe buying the Pro for the best GTA VI experience

Like James Sawyer Ford said its likely going to be expensive

I know I am by far in the minority but I will 100% drop even $1000 IF MS can launch nextbox close to GTA VI but if they don't I will pass on anything else Xbox has to offer moving forward

I know I've said it before but I just don't get why they'd bother, it'd be so expensive that they'd never get the price down enough in time to make it appeal to the mass market before the PS6 launches, at best it would just sell to the hardcore xbox crowd and not grow their business at all, those people already have years long subscriptions to GP and would just be trading their series x consoles in towards the next xbox.

Power isn't their problem, technically they have the most powerful console now and nobody cares. I think we've gone beyond that a bit in the console space at this point, they still don't have the exclusives that grow their audience, there is no compelling reason to buy an xbox, especially when every 1st party game they make launches day one on PC. People who are willing to drop $1000 on a console are likely to already own a gaming pc.

I get not wanting to keep launching the same year as a new PlayStation, if I were them I'd plan on 2027 and get the best thing out for $500 or $600 I could at that time. We've seen over the last two generations now that price drops are difficult, we are into our 4th year of our current generation now and the machines are still at launch prices (in some areas they went up in price) so launching a $1000 console 3 years before the PS6 just seems pointless and counterproductive IMO.

 

[playsaves3]

DF interviewed Cerny about the road to PS5 video and questioned him about TFs. At the time he explained (correctly) that the theoretical measurement is rubbish as it is literally measuring every gate in the GPU flipping state (back and forth from 0->1, 1->0) at every clock cycle - no game engine ever does that, it is essentially a completely pointless, measurement of how rapidly the system can waste energy.

DF heavily pushed the idea that XBox was a better architecture due to having more CUs == more TFs. Ignoring the fact that more CUs need to be fed data to actually get any work out of them. In this video, DF are stating that Cerny has walked back on his narrow/fast design to go with wide/slower in the Pro - not so subtly indicating that Series X is better designed for "future looking titles, and Sony have now come around to the same conclusion" - it's over simplifying a huge number of design considerations made in 2017-2018 and pushing that their preferred platform (XBox) is better.

DF used to be interesting, but these days it really is difficult to watch some of the obviously naked partisan coverage - I expect after the Pro launches (something DF think is not worth having at all), that the comparisons will be between a Pro and whatever top of the line nvidia ada card is available. Comparisons for the Pro should be between Pro and Series X (since apparently that is MS Pro console this gen).

> Mark Cerny counters. "I think you're asking what happens if there is a piece of code intentionally written so that every transistor (or the maximum number of transistors possible) in the CPU and GPU flip on every cycle. < https://www.eurogamer.net/digitalfoundry-2020-playstation-5-the-mark-cerny-tech-deep-dive

Pro gpu benches will be completely useless with that cpu

 

[ReBurn]

You guys need to not be so hurt by this. Look at the raw difference.

Ps5 Pro. Same memory qty but a Bit faster. 10 percent cpu speed boost if you reduce gpu power by 1 percent. A mere 45 percent gpu raster performance. In reality 16.5 tf vs 10. Something on the original.

X1x. Moving from shite 8gb ddr3 to 12gb of super fast memory at the time.
33 percent cpu boost.
Over 4 times the graphical performance of the original xbox in the same size console as a xbox 1 s.

Xbox 1 x was an absolute beast in design and power delivery for the time.

And you all are getting butt hurt over digital foundry?

Last gen the X1X absolutely became the place to play multiplat games if you were on console. It also did a lot to improve so many games with the added horsepower, sometimes without the original developers having to go in and patch them if they didn't have hard frame or res caps. The effort and energy they put into that box is what I hoped they were going to continue with Series X going into this gen. In some ways I think they tried with things like Play Anywhere,Quick Resume, using and syncing saves across generations, and allowing X1 games to automatically take advantage of X1X settings on Series X without additional patches. But they dropped the ball hard on new software and squandered what they actually accomplished. It's very disappointing because all of those systems work so well on Xbox, but they haven't pushed out enough compelling games to get people interested.

I think a lot of the frustration over what Digital Foundry is saying in regard to PS5 Pro comes from how people worked themselves into a hype state speculating over what was coming. Some people were legitimately believing in the early threads that PS5 Pro was going to be a generational leap in specs for 500 bucks. It should not come as a surprise that Sony is going with the same CPU with a clock boost, more GPU cores, and a boost in memory bandwidth because that's what they did last time. It seems like because isn't shaping up to be what they expected they're dragging DF as a biased bad guy MS shill platform for deflating their hype bubble.

 

[Perrott]

Unless it's purely a case of finalising the last few moving parts or most likely, having stuff to show. I don't see any other reason to wait too long for an announcement (or at least a soft reveal, tech talk or alluding to it).

I don't buy for one minute that announcing this soon would cannibalise sales. At worst it'd result in some PS5 base sales being lost now in favour of a PS5 Pro sales 6-8mths later. Double dippers are likely few and far between. Otherwise, people who are inclined towards a Pro either have or have had a PS5 already and will sell it on, or they don't have a base system and plan on buying a Pro now knowing it's 99.9% coming. Plus being a semi-premium item it kinda shifts the scale more in favour of a slightly earlier reveal.

I know this probably ain't happening, but ideally it'd be a Road To PS5 Pro tech talk in the next couple months with Cerny & Co with in-depth specs, reasoning, tech demos and a title or two shown briefly. Then a proper showcase in the latter mid Summer for new games, Pro-upgraded games and a hardware/price/release reveal; and then release in Sept-Nov.

Insider sources have reported after the last State of Play that a PlayStation Showcase is scheduled for May. We also know per Tom Henderson's articles that PS Studios have had PS5 Pro devkits since September, with third-party studios receiving them in January.

My best guess would be that the Pro is planned to be unveiled at the Showcase for a release in November, with all footage featured throughout the event captured from PS5 Pro development units.

 

[Loxus]

While some of you contemplate the CPUs performance. I'm still trying to figure out the GPU clocks.

I'm thinking the PS5 Pro GPU clock speed my be higher than the PS5 after all.

The Tempest Engine in the PS5 runs at the GPU's frequency of 2.23GHz.
PlayStation 5 uncovered: the Mark Cerny tech deep dive
The Tempest engine itself is, as Cerny explained in his presentation, a revamped AMD compute unit, which runs at the GPU's frequency and delivers 64 flops per cycle. Peak performance from the engine is therefore in the region of 100 gigaflops, in the ballpark of the entire eight-core Jaguar CPU cluster used in PlayStation 4. While based on GPU architecture, utilisation is very, very different.

Tom Henderson's article states the ACV runs at a higher clock speed on PS5 Pro than on PS5.

Audio

The ACV in the PlayStation 5 Pro runs at a higher clock speed over the standard PlayStation 5, resulting in the ACM library having 35% more performance.

• More convolution reverbs can be processed
• More FFT or IFFT can be processed

Assuming this ACV is the Tempest Engine.
This implies the PS5 Pro GPU is running at a higher frequency than 2.23GHz.

Assuming the frequency and performance scales 1:1.
2.23GHz + 35% = 3.010GHz
Which is insane even for Mark Cerny.

I'm starting to think MLiD and Tom Henderson tweaked the numbers in order to protect their sources.

 

[playsaves3]

So another unbalanced upgrade like ps4 pro because sony can't make a premium upgrade at a premium price uh??!

Goodbye gta6 or any future cpu intensive game at 60 fps, you had a non-existent good run.

It's crazy I thought Sony learned maybe there is hope for last minute changes

 

[yamaci17]

It's crazy I thought Sony learned maybe there is hope for last minute changes

 

[winjer]

While some of you contemplate the CPUs performance. I'm still trying to figure out the GPU clocks.

I'm thinking the PS5 Pro GPU clock speed my be higher than the PS5 after all.

The Tempest Engine in the PS5 runs at the GPU's frequency of 2.23GHz.
PlayStation 5 uncovered: the Mark Cerny tech deep dive
The Tempest engine itself is, as Cerny explained in his presentation, a revamped AMD compute unit, which runs at the GPU's frequency and delivers 64 flops per cycle. Peak performance from the engine is therefore in the region of 100 gigaflops, in the ballpark of the entire eight-core Jaguar CPU cluster used in PlayStation 4. While based on GPU architecture, utilisation is very, very different.

Tom Henderson's article states the ACV runs at a higher clock speed on PS5 Pro than on PS5.

Audio

The ACV in the PlayStation 5 Pro runs at a higher clock speed over the standard PlayStation 5, resulting in the ACM library having 35% more performance.

• More convolution reverbs can be processed
• More FFT or IFFT can be processed

Assuming this ACV is the Tempest Engine.
This implies the PS5 Pro GPU is running at a higher frequency than 2.23GHz.

Assuming the frequency and performance scales 1:1.
2.23GHz + 35% = 3.010GHz
Which is insane even for Mark Cerny.

I'm starting to think MLiD and Tom Henderson tweaked the numbers in order to protect their sources.

You know there are such things as clock gating.

 

[sendit]

Last gen the X1X absolutely became the place to play multiplat games if you were on console. It also did a lot to improve so many games with the added horsepower, sometimes without the original developers having to go in and patch them if they didn't have hard frame or res caps. The effort and energy they put into that box is what I hoped they were going to continue with Series X going into this gen. In some ways I think they tried with things like Play Anywhere,Quick Resume, using and syncing saves across generations, and allowing X1 games to automatically take advantage of X1X settings on Series X without additional patches. But they dropped the ball hard on new software and squandered what they actually accomplished. It's very disappointing because all of those systems work so well on Xbox, but they haven't pushed out enough compelling games to get people interested.

I think a lot of the frustration over what Digital Foundry is saying in regard to PS5 Pro comes from how people worked themselves into a hype state speculating over what was coming. Some people were legitimately believing in the early threads that PS5 Pro was going to be a generational leap in specs for 500 bucks. It should not come as a surprise that Sony is going with the same CPU with a clock boost, more GPU cores, and a boost in memory bandwidth because that's what they did last time. It seems like because isn't shaping up to be what they expected they're dragging DF as a biased bad guy MS shill platform for deflating their hype bubble.

This has to be some revisionist history to judge the market based on DF comparison videos.

Not for the majority. Most people were happy with the base consoles. The X1X/Pro were a nice option, but did nothing to move the needle. Additionally, people should be more hyped up about the AI tech that is being enabled from this upgrade. A huge miss on the base consoles, no thanks to AMD being behind.

 

[Loxus]

You know there are such things as clock gating.

I'm just quoting what Mark Cerny said in the DF article. Which said the Tempest Engine runs at the GPU's frequency.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

I know I've said it before but I just don't get why they'd bother, it'd be so expensive that they'd never get the price down enough in time to make it appeal to the mass market before the PS6 launches, at best it would just sell to the hardcore xbox crowd and not grow their business at all, those people already have years long subscriptions to GP and would just be trading their series x consoles in towards the next xbox.

Power isn't their problem, technically they have the most powerful console now and nobody cares. I think we've gone beyond that a bit in the console space at this point, they still don't have the exclusives that grow their audience, there is no compelling reason to buy an xbox, especially when every 1st party game they make launches day one on PC. People who are willing to drop $1000 on a console are likely to already own a gaming pc.

I get not wanting to keep launching the same year as a new PlayStation, if I were them I'd plan on 2027 and get the best thing out for $500 or $600 I could at that time. We've seen over the last two generations now that price drops are difficult, we are into our 4th year of our current generation now and the machines are still at launch prices (in some areas they went up in price) so launching a $1000 console 3 years before the PS6 just seems pointless and counterproductive IMO.

Yeah I wouldn't bet the farm they are pursuing the Zen 5 traditional based console for a 2025/26 launch but haven't been told they stopped it either.

I don't think its going to help them much no matter what

Its kind of interesting gaming last night heard someone mention we are about to enter a fight of Sony upscaling vs Xbox frame gen techs

Take with how ever much salt is needed with everything I said here, all speculations at this point

 

[Crayon]

I know I've said it before but I just don't get why they'd bother, it'd be so expensive that they'd never get the price down enough in time to make it appeal to the mass market before the PS6 launches, at best it would just sell to the hardcore xbox crowd and not grow their business at all, those people already have years long subscriptions to GP and would just be trading their series x consoles in towards the next xbox.

Power isn't their problem, technically they have the most powerful console now and nobody cares. I think we've gone beyond that a bit in the console space at this point, they still don't have the exclusives that grow their audience, there is no compelling reason to buy an xbox, especially when every 1st party game they make launches day one on PC. People who are willing to drop $1000 on a console are likely to already own a gaming pc.

I get not wanting to keep launching the same year as a new PlayStation, if I were them I'd plan on 2027 and get the best thing out for $500 or $600 I could at that time. We've seen over the last two generations now that price drops are difficult, we are into our 4th year of our current generation now and the machines are still at launch prices (in some areas they went up in price) so launching a $1000 console 3 years before the PS6 just seems pointless and counterproductive IMO.

The TDX (Thousand Dollar Xbox) is probably their best way to sunset the consoles. But if they do it because they think it will actually turn things around, it's because Phil has the mind of a child.

 

[MisterXDTV]

This has to be some revisionist history to judge the market based on DF comparison videos.

Not for the majority. Most people were happy with the base consoles. The X1X/Pro were a nice option, but did nothing to move the needle. Additionally, people should be more hyped up about the AI tech that is being enabled from this upgrade. A huge miss on the base consoles, no thanks to AMD being behind.

Xbox One X was so great for MS that it was discontinued after 2 years and a half after telling people that Series S was better....

 

[sendit]

Xbox One X was so great for MS that it was discontinued after 2 years and a half after telling people that Series S was better....

It looks like history is going to repeat itself. If the rumors hold true, Microsoft is rushing to release next gen.

 

[winjer]

I'm just quoting what Mark Cerny said in the DF article. Which said the Tempest Engine runs at the GPU's frequency.

Ok. But if Sony and AMD needs it to run at different clocks, they can just use clock gating.
I'm just saying this because going from 2.2 to 3ghz is a big jump. Especially for 60 CUs on an SoC.

 

[shamoomoo]

While some of you contemplate the CPUs performance. I'm still trying to figure out the GPU clocks.

I'm thinking the PS5 Pro GPU clock speed my be higher than the PS5 after all.

The Tempest Engine in the PS5 runs at the GPU's frequency of 2.23GHz.
PlayStation 5 uncovered: the Mark Cerny tech deep dive
The Tempest engine itself is, as Cerny explained in his presentation, a revamped AMD compute unit, which runs at the GPU's frequency and delivers 64 flops per cycle. Peak performance from the engine is therefore in the region of 100 gigaflops, in the ballpark of the entire eight-core Jaguar CPU cluster used in PlayStation 4. While based on GPU architecture, utilisation is very, very different.

Tom Henderson's article states the ACV runs at a higher clock speed on PS5 Pro than on PS5.

Audio

The ACV in the PlayStation 5 Pro runs at a higher clock speed over the standard PlayStation 5, resulting in the ACM library having 35% more performance.

• More convolution reverbs can be processed
• More FFT or IFFT can be processed

Assuming this ACV is the Tempest Engine.
This implies the PS5 Pro GPU is running at a higher frequency than 2.23GHz.

Assuming the frequency and performance scales 1:1.
2.23GHz + 35% = 3.010GHz
Which is insane even for Mark Cerny.

I'm starting to think MLiD and Tom Henderson tweaked the numbers in order to protect their sources.

Probably not, though I thought the same.


RDNA3 has decoupled shaders clocks vs its front-end like older Nvidia architectures.

 

[MisterXDTV]

It looks like history is going to repeat itself. If the rumors hold true, Microsoft is rushing to release next gen.

They are free to try, but third-party devs will move to next-gen only when Sony does....

So what's the point??

 

[welshrat]

Gonna be hard when everyone here dumping on it will eventually be the early adopters, the lot of 'e

It's crazy I thought Sony learned maybe there is hope for last minute changes

Don't buy it then. Jeez, I for one will be there day one as I was with the ps4 pro and have no regrets

 

[Loxus]

Ok. But if Sony and AMD needs it to run at different clocks, they can just use clock gating.
I'm just saying this because going from 2.2 to 3ghz is a big jump. Especially for 60 CUs on an SoC.

Yea, which is why I said the numbers had to be tweaked.

The 67 Flops and 300 Tops aren't matching each other's clock speed either.

I guess you're right.

 

[welshrat]

.

 

[winjer]

Yea, which is why I said the numbers had to be tweaked.

The 67 Flops and 300 Tops aren't matching each other's clock speed either.

I guess you're right.

I didn't find the formula to calculate those 300 TOPs.
Those numbers don't really ad up.
Like you said, maybe they are skewing the numbers a bit to protect the sources.

 

[playsaves3]

From all indications, the PS5pro AIUs are built into each CU. And if so, it does mean that yes, Sony has something that can rival DLSS or at worst XeSS.

Boggles the mind... but then again I am not surprised. No matter what was confirmed, there are people that would have leached onto any thread to dismiss the thing. No matter how little sense that makes. Reading through this thread, you would think that 95% of every game released thus far is grossly CPU limited and only managing 30fps. Which is the only scenario that not having upgraded the CPU would be considered a problem.

But that simply couldn't be further from the truth. Being that its more like 95% of games on the PS5 does have a performance mode, meaning the CPU is already able to handle game logic for 60fps. With the only exceptions to this being games that arguably are just weirdly optimized and even having issues on PC too. The reality of the matter is that there are more games out and coming that ship with a 60fps on the base PS5, which means a CPU upgrade wouldn't have been needed for them even on the PS5pro.

But ah well...

This is not true at all. For whatever reason, the "CU count" increase and going for a "wide GPU", only accounts for about 1.45x increase in raster performance. Even though it should be more like 1.6x... go figure.

The bulk of all the upgrades will literally come down to things like the built in AI hardware allowing for PSSR, the better RT hardware, giving devs more RAM and having more bandwidth.

I am curious to know how you looked at this and arrived at such a far swung different conclusion.


Now I don't know if you are being purposefully disingenuous or if you really just don't see it lol. But I will indulge you...

There is only one scenario possible where all we see are things like better rez and RT. And that is if dealing with a game that has ONLY a 30fps mode on the base PS5. That would suggest that that game is most likely at best not running higher than 33-35fps internally. Its CPU bottlenecked.

What I am finding weird, is that this scenario I just described, is more of the exception and not the norm just looking at all the software released for the PS5 thus far. So I don't get why people are on here making it look like the best the PS5 has been able to do thus far is 30fps. Lets put this into perspective. Even Alan Wake 2 and Pandora... both have 60fps modes on the standard PS5. Hell even Baldur's gate 3 has it too. In reality, majority of all the games released have a 60fps mode. And that is just fact.

So this narrative that the biggest misstep on the planet is not having a better CPU is factually false. And why is this even important, well, its because if the games logic can already manage 60fps on the PS5, then you will see the very kind of improvements that the PS5pro is designed to give. Which is/are, 60fps PSSR mode with IQ similar to or better than IQ in the standard 30fps fidelity mode.


Read above.


And you know the reason they are struggling to get 60fps is due to a CPU limit? Or you just think it is?

This is the PS5 launch all over again. What I assume happens when specs evangelists see numbers or specs that just doesn't rhyme with what they expect them to be. Then when you start seeing the thing perform, people are left scratching their heads and wondering how its possible.

I am beginning to realize that a lot of posters here have no idea what kinda specs/stats to even look at to paint a picture of what to expect. And rather than ask questions, they just come out with some of the weirdest, ignorant hot takes and call it a day lol.

You are a lot more reasonable in this post and I realize now I didn't verbalize my thoughts on this topic as well as I should have initially. The reason I have a major concern about the cpu is the cpu they used the ps5 was already outdated and I do believe the cpu stops almost every game from reaching 120fps or having more than 1 or 2 etc effects even if the res was 480p and they may now be even the occasional game that can't even do 60 this is problematic cause it means even if the pros gpu was a 5090 with rt power of a 6090 it won't matter cause the system in its entirety could never pump out hat many frames it wouldn't be good to learn for example avatar on a gpu level with the pro easily can push out 120 or even 144hz at performance mode settings but is running into cpu bottlenecks.

 

[Wooxsvan]

I love how MS releasing a new gen is somehow going to fix the problem that that the market just doesn't care a out xbox/gamepass. How many times are people going to keep saying this? It has been the same moving goal posts since the xbox one.

If you consider their most successful gen was born from this strategy (360 releasing 1 year early in the US vs PS3 and only 4 years after the original Xbox) they might as well try it...

 

[Viking Warrior]

While some of you contemplate the CPUs performance. I'm still trying to figure out the GPU clocks.

I'm thinking the PS5 Pro GPU clock speed my be higher than the PS5 after all.

The Tempest Engine in the PS5 runs at the GPU's frequency of 2.23GHz.
PlayStation 5 uncovered: the Mark Cerny tech deep dive
The Tempest engine itself is, as Cerny explained in his presentation, a revamped AMD compute unit, which runs at the GPU's frequency and delivers 64 flops per cycle. Peak performance from the engine is therefore in the region of 100 gigaflops, in the ballpark of the entire eight-core Jaguar CPU cluster used in PlayStation 4. While based on GPU architecture, utilisation is very, very different.

Tom Henderson's article states the ACV runs at a higher clock speed on PS5 Pro than on PS5.

Audio

The ACV in the PlayStation 5 Pro runs at a higher clock speed over the standard PlayStation 5, resulting in the ACM library having 35% more performance.

• More convolution reverbs can be processed
• More FFT or IFFT can be processed

Assuming this ACV is the Tempest Engine.
This implies the PS5 Pro GPU is running at a higher frequency than 2.23GHz.

Assuming the frequency and performance scales 1:1.
2.23GHz + 35% = 3.010GHz
Which is insane even for Mark Cerny.

I'm starting to think MLiD and Tom Henderson tweaked the numbers in order to protect their sources.

PS5 Pro clocks running at 2.45 GHZ on 5nm RDNA4 chip.

 

[shamoomoo]

Yea, which is why I said the numbers had to be tweaked.

The 67 Flops and 300 Tops aren't matching each other's clock speed either.

I guess you're right.

I'm not sure if it has been totally confirmed but the Pro has a AI engine and the difference could be just for TOPS on the AI engine vs the GPU. Like how the tensor cores on Nvidia GPUs do FP16 and other operations.

Also,if I'm reading it right,you multiple the number of CUs x frequency x operations because I recall Microsoft having an int8 and int4 performance of 97 and 48 TOPs.

52CUs x1.825x 512 or 1024.

 

[playsaves3]

While some of you contemplate the CPUs performance. I'm still trying to figure out the GPU clocks.

I'm thinking the PS5 Pro GPU clock speed my be higher than the PS5 after all.

The Tempest Engine in the PS5 runs at the GPU's frequency of 2.23GHz.
PlayStation 5 uncovered: the Mark Cerny tech deep dive
The Tempest engine itself is, as Cerny explained in his presentation, a revamped AMD compute unit, which runs at the GPU's frequency and delivers 64 flops per cycle. Peak performance from the engine is therefore in the region of 100 gigaflops, in the ballpark of the entire eight-core Jaguar CPU cluster used in PlayStation 4. While based on GPU architecture, utilisation is very, very different.

Tom Henderson's article states the ACV runs at a higher clock speed on PS5 Pro than on PS5.

Audio

The ACV in the PlayStation 5 Pro runs at a higher clock speed over the standard PlayStation 5, resulting in the ACM library having 35% more performance.

• More convolution reverbs can be processed
• More FFT or IFFT can be processed

Assuming this ACV is the Tempest Engine.
This implies the PS5 Pro GPU is running at a higher frequency than 2.23GHz.

Assuming the frequency and performance scales 1:1.
2.23GHz + 35% = 3.010GHz
Which is insane even for Mark Cerny.

I'm starting to think MLiD and Tom Henderson tweaked the numbers in order to protect their sources.

Once again it's not the gpu that's the problem with this pro in certain ways it's better than I was hoping for it's everything else that's been leaked about it. But thank you for having more positive info

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

If you consider their most successful gen was born from this strategy (360 releasing 1 year early in the US vs PS3 and only 4 years after the original Xbox) they might as well try it...

I think its an interesting strategy coupled with the handheld thats launching much sooner

And yeah I would bet large sums of money we hear about this handheld very soon now

 

[Loxus]

Probably not, though I thought the same.


RDNA3 has decoupled shaders clocks vs its front-end like older Nvidia architectures.

The 7900xtx TF is calculated using the front end clock speed though.

96CU × 4 × 32 × 2 × 2.5GHz = 61 TFLOPS.

So that means the 2.18GHz on the Pro is the front end clock speed. But who knows what's going on with the GPU clocks at the moment.

 

[playsaves3]

ITT people think that CPU is not important in games. I love NeoGAF sometimes, Songaf in particular.

To be more cordial maybe they are trying to say it doesn't matter that much but I still disagree with them

 

[Audiophile]

Hopefully if they maintain decoupled clocks across the front-end, shaders and other elements, Sony disclose them in some way. We'll all be chasing our tail trying to work stuff out otherwise.

 

[reinking]

Can some of you start talking in "dumb-speak" so I can understand you?

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

No, I think they put the same effort and money if not a bit more in it, they just had a less bad base console CPU to work with. Technology is evolving slower and slower (the cost of each transition is also higher and higher). Not even talking about inflation either…

The jump to 5nm is costlier than the jump to 7nm was (and brings less advantages, the jump to 3nm from 5 nm is even more expensive (and brings less advantages compared to the jump from 7nm to 5nm which was worse than the jump from 16nm to 7nm… etc…).

Xbox One X was just as conservative as PS4 Pro was. Coming out one year later at $100 more is brushed aside very incorrectly.

One X was more ambitious it had a vapor chamber for God's sake. Anyway you're right that tech is more expensive now but that applies to everybody, some companies like AMD, Nvidia and Intel continue to move forward as they did back in the PS4 Pro days, others like Sony are being more conservative in R&D and spending hence why the PS5 Pro is what it is.

Even poor tier AMD didn't think putting all of RDNA3 on 7N family of nodes was a good idea, instead they dropped the 7600xt in there and moved everything better to 5N and they did that 2 years ago when 5N was newer and more expensive than now, Sony isnt even doing it now that's how much Sony is cost cutting here. That's the reality.

 

[Zathalus]

Does it matter what the clocks are at? We already know the expected performance increase directly from Sony, so 2.18Ghz or 2.45Ghz doesn't really matter.

 

[Crayon]

These threads are always kinda the same with people slamming the dial to either end. We know that some games are cpu limited and some are gpu limited.

Please note that there are games on the xss that do not have a 60 mode like the big kid's consoles, even though it's cpu is in the ballpark. Why? Because a lot of times it's the gpu. They could push the resolution and effects way down, but don't want to release an ugly game. That will probably happen and it will simply morph this conversation into fingerpointing at devs or moneyhatting or whatever. Xbox not throwing their hat in the ring here will do nothing to prevent specious, worst case vs best case arguments.

Also remember the run up to this gen, where the PS5 was supposedly an unmitigated disaster of engineering in every way.

 

[Loxus]

I'm not sure if it has been totally confirmed but the Pro has a AI engine and the difference could be just for TOPS on the AI engine vs the GPU. Like how the tensor cores on Nvidia GPUs do FP16 and other operations.

Also,if I'm reading it right,you multiple the number of CUs x frequency x operations because I recall Microsoft having an int8 and int4 performance of 97 and 48 TOPs.

52CUs x1.825x 512 or 1024.

Nope TOPs use the same clock speed, 2.5GHz.

96CU × 2 AI Accelerators × 256 × 2.5GHz = 123 FLOPs (FP16)
96CU × 512 × 2.5GHz = 123 TOPs (INT8)

 

[Loxus]

Does it matter what the clocks are at? We already know the expected performance increase directly from Sony, so 2.18Ghz or 2.45Ghz doesn't really matter.

Not for you, but for me.
I'd like to know if Cerny clocked the GPU even higher. Surprising us again like he did with the PS5 GPU.

It also makes me wonder if he did a High GPU Frequency Mode.

I can see it going like this.
Performance Mode = High CPU Frequency Mode.
Fidelity Mode = High GPU Frequency Mode.

 

[clintar]

I read this article about Mesh Nodes yesterday thinking this kind of think could possibly help out the older cpus in these consoles. Maybe help with that cpu bottleneck.

AMD's iteration moves draw calls and mesh nodes from the CPU to the GPU, cutting back on the time it takes to execute these tasks. As a result, AMD found that there was a massive performance improvement — rendering time saw a 64% boost — when using Work Graphs with mesh shaders.

AMD is making the CPU more and more obsolete in gaming | Digital Trends

AMD just shared a demo of Work Graphs with the additions of draw calls and mesh nodes, and the results are impressive.

www.digitaltrends.com

It's based on a Work Graphs feature of DirectX 12, though, so I guess more likely to be something Xbox only until/if Sony could make something using the same principles for their SDK.

 

[PUNKem733]

What you call mistakes are in reality budgetary constraints

Cerny designed a PS4 Pro to create a cost effective, higher fidelity ps4

Mission accomplished. Same thing with the ps5 pro.

He is not designing a next gen system that's expected to meaningfully raise the bar in terms of gameplay logic on the CPU, because at the end of the day it's running PS5 developed games

Not PS6. PS5. This isn't difficult to comprehend

Have you SEEN some of these replies? It seems to be extremely difficult to comprehend that.