semiconscious
Member
this game has 'overly iterative/derivative sony triple-a sequel' written all over it...
i don't really care who the lead is. i'm just not ready to basically replay ghost of tsushima...
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Ghost of Yotei interview: Atsu doesn’t write poems; she collects bounties
- Thread starter cormack12
- Start date
i don't really care who the lead is. i'm just not ready to basically replay ghost of tsushima...
Arsic
Loves his juicy stink trail scent
Dumb bitch can't even write or read!
Loomy
Thinks Microaggressions are Real
I'm interested in this game, but I'm in this boat as well. I kind of feel the same way I do about Death Stranding 2. Do I want to play them? Yes. Do I want to play them again right now? Not really.
Replayability of sequels to open world games falls off a cliff very fast when you 100% the original game.
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vpance
Member
I'm going through that now with DS2. It's fine as a sequel but I'm not sure I'll finish it :\
Killjoy-NL
Banned
No, Jin was more spiritual and sophisticated, as he was a samurai and higher class.
Atsu is going to be from a lower class, scraping by the only way she knows.
In that sense it's more like 2 complete opposites living under Mongolian occupation, rather than "WoKe!!1!".
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UniformDeliverance
Member
Good. The poetry in the first game was contrived and annoying to participate in. I won't miss it.
Gamer_By_Proxy
About to beat off
FalconPunch
Member
Once I saw the MC, I already knew how the game was trending and I'm not buying.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
My issue is they go about it most boring way.....this has nothing to do with woke or not, because I also felt Jin was super boring character as well.
for my taste I like how Yoko Taro does strong female character.
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viveks86
Member
I did that to highlight how an ordinary statement gets editorialized, sensationalized and distorted due to inherent biases. And I don't mean that in a derogatory way. I have inherent bias too. I'm highlighting how things can go wrong as a result.
All the director said was the 2 characters are fundamentally different. One is reflective, educated, articulate and sophisticated. The other is unsophisticated, single minded and (possibly) uneducated. Does the latter sound like boss babe material with my editorialization? If anything, it sounds like Jin has the superior intellect and Atsu is the typical village simpleton, right?
But Guardian, being who they are, needed to sensationalize it. Make it seem like Atsu is a badass. She had 16 years since her family died. She could have learnt poetry if she really wanted to and if she had the capacity for it. But they needed sensational editorialization. A soundbite that the internet would pick up on. And it worked. "Atsu doesn't write poems; she collects bounties" is what we got as if one trait has anything to do with the other. They have already shown her pick up sumi-e painting, but Guardian pretends as if that doesn't matter. If that's taken into consideration, the soundbite completely falls apart. If she has time to paint, she has time for poetry right? There's no logic here. It's just a throwaway quip. "She doesn't chew gum, she walks." Wait… what?
So let's try my version for a GAF title.
How about… "Jin is reflective and writes poetry; Atsu isn't and can't"
If that is the title of this thread, then neither you nor I would come bursting in trying to understand what the hell it means. We would both be like "sure, that seems consistent with the game's premise" and go back to other topics. But we are now on opposite ends of a made up controversy. That was why I reiterated 3 versions of the same thing. To highlight the journey an innocuous statement can take due to inherent biases.
Good to know. I wasn't certain either way, which is why I didn't tag you at all. My post wasn't a challenge meant for you. I just borrowed your phrasing as it perfectly captured the majority sentiment in this thread.
That's the whole point of fiction. It's a very common theme to put people totally unsuited for a task to be faced with accomplishing that task. It's an integral part of hero's journey stories. If that wasn't allowed, you wouldn't have masterpieces like Kill Bill or Lady Snowblood, the Japanese movie that inspired Kill Bill. In this case, putting a woman with the task of exacting violent physical revenge against 6 bosses is the David versus Goliath story. It's wayyyy less probable for a woman to achieve it than a man. Hence, it has a different effect on the audience.
Say that to Quentin Tarantino. What type of realistic violence do you want from female protagonists? Popping poison into everyone's soup? Trap them with sex? 100% stealth? None of those are fun as games. Or do you want no violence at all and have them in dramas about their monthly periods, nagging their husbands or rearing children? Or just have a man in everything? It's all make believe, man. We seem to have no trouble suspending disbelief when a man can perform superhuman stunts. But a woman… oh no… she can't even do what a man can do. How dare they?!
Seriously, none of these were issues until a decade ago and we all enjoyed our media regardless of gender and realism. I get the frustration due to extreme wokeness. But we can't be spreading so much negativity like this at every instance at even the whiff of non-conformity. When you do that, you become the very problem you were trying to combat.
Not all of this is directed at you as you are one of the more discerning posters around here. Just putting my thoughts on record
calico
Member
Fast-travel is the gaming of equivalent of some time passing off-screen in a movie or off-page in a book. This skipping of time within a story is very common, universally understood, and does not particularly interrupt the flow of the story because the watcher / reader understands that not every waking moment of the character is significant to the story.
It may be marginally more convenient to have 'quest givers, shopkeepers and key characters' visit (teleport to) the player out in the wilderness (instead of the player going to them), but this is more discordant than the fast-travel hopping from forest to beach to mountaintop he describes is, not less. The fast-travel hopping to those places can be easily explained by 'the player character journeyed to those places off-screen'. Those people/services coming to the player's camp out in the middle of nowhere is discordant with the setting/reality they are depicting. Why would a 'shopkeeper' visit your random camping spot in the wilderness? How did they even find you? It is convenient, but it's jarring because it's nonsensical. It also undermines the wilderness' identity in the process.
There are games where this system could make sense (ie. a fantasy setting and the merchants are magical in nature, or you are playing someone important enough that when you travel these services travel with you) but this does not appear to be one of them.
It may be marginally more convenient to have 'quest givers, shopkeepers and key characters' visit (teleport to) the player out in the wilderness (instead of the player going to them), but this is more discordant than the fast-travel hopping from forest to beach to mountaintop he describes is, not less. The fast-travel hopping to those places can be easily explained by 'the player character journeyed to those places off-screen'. Those people/services coming to the player's camp out in the middle of nowhere is discordant with the setting/reality they are depicting. Why would a 'shopkeeper' visit your random camping spot in the wilderness? How did they even find you? It is convenient, but it's jarring because it's nonsensical. It also undermines the wilderness' identity in the process.
There are games where this system could make sense (ie. a fantasy setting and the merchants are magical in nature, or you are playing someone important enough that when you travel these services travel with you) but this does not appear to be one of them.
kat_on_the_roof
Member
It is as much needed as a strong and high ambition "alpha male"
I like to think we all want to be strong and independent. Not sure what is wrong with that?
viveks86
Member
So you want evidence that she is not being portrayed as a badass? Here is the evidence:
1) The wise old Ainu lady in the Onryo List trailer always calls her "Situ Reinu". The one that gets easily lost in the hunt. Why would badasses get lost in any hunt? Seems like she could never get her life and priorities in order. The word "always" suggests they've known each other for long. May be she raised Atsu after the assassinations and knows her well.
2) In the state of play, they start with "she has no code and doesn't care if she lives or dies". Sounds like a vengeful, amoral person with no greater purpose or value for her own life. If she dies, her mission fails with her. So why would she not care? Why is a badass wandering like a lost soul instead of having a clear plan for her badassery? The fuck took her 16 years? She was 12 or so when the family was murdered. That puts her in the late 20s. She should have been chopping their heads off as soon as she hit her athletic prime. What's taking the badass so long? Sounds pretty broken and lost to me, actually.
3) In the sound of vengeance trailer, she describes the onryo as a ruthless spirit that keeps seeking vengeance and wonders if that's who she is. But when she ends it, she isn't declaring it confidently. Like a badass. Her voice is shaking like she is almost crying. That's her either thinking to herself or confiding in someone about what she may have become - a lost vengeful ghost. Sounds like a depressed person in need of therapy.
4) In the same trailer, they show her surrendering or almost dying to 3 of the 6 bosses. My guess is this is her reality check. Her Pai Mei moment from kill bill. Like Jin got his ass handed to him by Khotun Khan at the beginning, I think she may be getting her ass handed back to her by not 1, but 3 bosses. Am I making this up? i don't know for sure, but look at these exhibits and tell me this is unlikely.
Her first encounter of The Oni:
Collapsed to the ground. Whimpering
Her first encounter of The Kitsune:
Straight-up surrendered with weapon laid out on tatami before her. Kneeling with hands on her knees. Waiting for final blow
Her first encounter of The Snake:
Takes a deep fucking breath before her confrontation, because this may not end well
Battered and bleeding, desperately stabbing away
Why is the badass boss bitch getting her ass whipped so many times?
5) She doesn't magically master every weapon. She first acquires them from defeating each boss (each specialize in one unique weapon). Then she trains multiple times with a master somewhere on the map. These masters are men and women in your wolf pack. All quickly presented during the state of play. If you want evidence, I will get you screen shots of the ones revealed or you can check for yourself.
So what's your evidence that she really is written as a badass? That she rides horses and swings swords? That she kills baddies, defies physics and does videogamey things in a video game? Sony is woke so this must be woke too? All of that seem pretty weak sauce in comparison, if I'm being honest.
So, where does that leave us? Me with my positive bias of the story and others with their negative bias of the story? Which one is justified? May be both in different aspects? We can go at it endlessly and there's no way to know who is right till the game is out. That's why I'm calling for some patience and restraint. Not because I want to shutdown anyone. But let's just chill instead of raking it so much over the coals. It can burn when it's out, if it deserves it. I too will back off, if she is just another female badass with no flaws. That would bore me too. I'd still play it, but if others don't, it will make total sense and I won't question the criticism. May be I'll join in too. But so far, the actual evidence in their marketing is on my side.
Also, yes, forums do have the right to blow up. And I have the right to say "don't blow up prematurely over little things". It's all just opinions at the end of the day.
The only question I would pose to the pissed off people on here is "When you have the opportunity to be reflective and poetic on GAF, like Jin, why be Atsu?"
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Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
You are applying a very modern lens to this though. Learn it where? From her private tutor? From high school or community college?
Most people, male or female, in that kind of socio economic background were lucky if they properly learned how to read and write in those days. You have to start working pretty early on and work can become most of what you do if not all you do or are in some extreme cases.
Do we think she had lots of hiragana annotated poems and books to buy and read or someone teaching her the more complex kanji characters they do not learn beyond elementary school?
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viveks86
Member
You telling me there are no poor amateur poets in villages that didn't have the means but still found a way somehow? I'm referring to Haiku, which even normal villagers can do with a mentor and lots of practice.
I hate posting results from google AI, but here was the answer to my question as I didn't want to respond with no substantiation. I might research this more as that's indeed an interesting counter!
viveks86
Member
I think it may be both. The higher purpose is already a given. They've said so themselves. My guess would be something related to the Ainu people (natives of Hokkaido) as there were rebellions against the aggressive Shogunate consolidation during that period.
March Climber
Member
From what they showed during it's state of play, it seems like they are doing something very similar to the Mercenaries-style 52 card deck system.
Unless there is some twist to this (or unless that twist suddenly makes it more optional) I would assume the player will be carrying out these bounties.
calico
Member
She can't complete the vengeance and then choose to forgo it. I guess the other way around is possible, sort of.
If she does forgo it, her reason might be related to what you mention though.
viveks86
Member
Possible. They might even converge. Assuming each boss has a 16 year trajectory since the assassination, Lord Saito may play a significant role in the shogunate, resulting in an epic showdown. But yeah, could go in any direction.
Gonzito
Gold Member
it's all over the forum, surely you can read?
Anyway, goodnight, try not to get triggered by them wimminfolk
Thanks to the moderators for banning this unbearable user
Danteyke223
Member
People here are rabbid as soon as anything is mentioned about this game or it's protagonist. Can we just wait for impressions/ reviews first and not from the grifters like Critical Drinker and their like ?
The game seems to be going with the Blue Eyed Samurai storyline that was on Netflix.
The game seems to be going with the Blue Eyed Samurai storyline that was on Netflix.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
I think we mistake possibility with likelihood especially given what happened to her, schooling available at the time, complexity of the language, and her path of revenge… not to mention the kind of socio economic realities of rural villages.
You should watch some documentaries in southern Italy shot in the 1950s… let alone 1600s peasant conditions.
Skitso
Member
I think those are replaced with painting pictures which was shown in one of the trailers.
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viveks86
Member
I didn't suggest she would forego it at that point. That would logically not be possible. But it could be a god of war style situation. Where she has done it all and wants to end her life as well, but finds a greater calling and the story expands.
I still like the converging idea though, where she forgoes halfway or towards the end, but the greater calling pushes her to finish the job anyway.
Happy to concede to that
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The Cockatrice
I'm retarded?
Even AC Shadows has contemplative moments. Its part of the Japanese culture.
calico
Member
Sakura
Member
And where did Jin learn to write it? Haiku didn't even exist yet in his time! If he could do it then I'm sure they could've had her do it too if they wanted to.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Which is exactly my point. It wasn't a problem a decade ago because we didn't have so many of them. Women leading action roles were by far the exception, not the norm. This was doubly true in video games where it was extremely uncommon until recently. I for one never batted an eye 10, 15, or 20 years ago when it happened. Now? I do because it has become ridiculous. Women are ill-suited in those roles, but now it's gotten to the point where in the AAA space, it's probably close to 50-50 when it shouldn't be the case simply because for one, the audience is overwhelmingly male, and two, those roles require immutable male traits in a character to succeed. As a result, we get female leads that are incredibly masculine personality-wise. Aloy, Ellie, Atsu, Selene, and even Johanna Dark before Perfect Dark got cancelled. All those women have extremely masculine personalities and most of us (men and women) react adversely to this. Does this mean it can never be done to tell a story? Of course, not, especially if the writer has enough nuance to not completely shutdown the character's femininity in favor of manly characteristics. I circle back to the predator franchise that starred Arnie in the first movie. The original was about an elite special forces unit being hunted down by an alien in the jungle. It was as manly as manly got. The last 3 damn outings have starred women.That's the whole point of fiction. It's a very common theme to put people totally unsuited for a task to be faced with accomplishing that task. It's an integral part of hero's journey stories. If that wasn't allowed, you wouldn't have masterpieces like Kill Bill or Lady Snowblood, the Japanese movie that inspired Kill Bill. In this case, putting a woman with the task of exacting violent physical revenge against 6 bosses is the David versus Goliath story. It's wayyyy less probable for a woman to achieve it than a man. Hence, it has a different effect on the audience.
Say that to Quentin Tarantino. What type of realistic violence do you want from female protagonists? Popping poison into everyone's soup? Trap them with sex? 100% stealth? None of those are fun as games. Or do you want no violence at all and have them in dramas about their monthly periods, nagging their husbands or rearing children? Or just have a man in everything? It's all make believe, man. We seem to have no trouble suspending disbelief when a man can perform superhuman stunts. But a woman… oh no… she can't even do what a man can do. How dare they?!
Seriously, none of these were issues until a decade ago and we all enjoyed our media regardless of gender and realism. I get the frustration due to extreme wokeness. But we can't be spreading so much negativity like this at every instance at even the whiff of non-conformity. When you do that, you become the very problem you were trying to combat.
Not all of this is directed at you as you are one of the more discerning posters around here. Just putting my thoughts on record
Those female characters for the most part do not exhibit virtues in a feminine way. This is fine when in small dosage or when there's a very specific reason for this. As it stands, they're just using it to send a message and act like those people who will swear that women are just as good in a fight as men are.
Note, my argument isn't that a woman killing 50 guys at once is unrealistic. Men aren't any more capable of doing that. My argument is that the masculinization of women at a large scale is both unpleasant and unwelcome.
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SJRB
Gold Member
Developer: "We removed the thing that a lot of people enjoyed in the previous game because our lady is cool and tough"
Fans: "wow that kinda sucks man"
This guy: "Wait for reviews everyone!! People having negative opinions are grifters!"
Use your own eyes to form an opinion, pal. And your brain. There's plenty of footage and interviews out at this point. You need a review to tell you what to think?
RoadHazard
Gold Member
This is GAF. Women have to be weak and submissive or it's woke and unrealistic.
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DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
Going to be interesting how this game performs, because I think it looks good and Im all for the brutal sequel but there sure is a lot of hate for the most anticipated game of the peak season.
Toots
Member
I might be too woke because i think that empowering a women by giving her the worst traits of masculinity (being proficient in how to dominate others through violence) is completely stupid and counter productive.
Only two way this makes sense, this trend is an attempt by alt right neo trostkyists at undermining social justice values, or the girl boss advocates are completely retarded.
Only two way this makes sense, this trend is an attempt by alt right neo trostkyists at undermining social justice values, or the girl boss advocates are completely retarded.
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geary
Member
I want a game where the MC has those skills...and be a man...in pink dress. The journalists would be on fire...
Boring, most protagonists, especially female ones, are the violent screaming types nowadays. Jin being a honorable warrior poet and scholar was sort of unique, they could have given Atsu something like that as well.
Like instead of stand-offs, maybe give her the ability to charm opponents with a beautiful, graceful fighting style, give her a singing voice that can influence their minds. There are so many opportunities.
boomcrab
Member
Everyone is being so annoyingly reductive. You guys are just reaching for this stuff. Its funny how they're gonna show her ass in some hot springs and suddenly you'll all appreciate the game more.
Stop paying attention to her being a girl and pay attention to her role as a character.
Stop paying attention to her being a girl and pay attention to her role as a character.
Braag
Member
Well yeah, but we are in the era of angry boss bitch warrior women. Dunkey had a good video showcasing how many "woman with sword" games are being pumped out right now.
It's almost as bad as the military shooter era of 2010s.
But just like any fad, it will blow over, then we'll look back and wonder wtf happened there.
geary
Member
And will score a 90+ in MC
There was at least conflict there, Jin becoming the Ghost while his uncle wanted to be honorable.
What's Atsu's conflict going be? Do all men deserve to die or only some of them?
Cakeboxer
Member
And she will win best performance awards.
GymWolf
Member
And it was a retarded, fake and forced conflict that made me roll my eyes every damn time, there was nothing epic in grown ass men arguing about letting their homeland going to hell to save their fucking honor, nobody in tushima island gave a fuck about honor while they were getting massacred by mongols and they probably cursed the retarded uncle for not thinking about a better strategy than full frontal assault with much smaller numbers.
If you really think that japan and samurai valued honor more than winning a war, i have a bridge to sell you.
I get that they were trying to replicate old samurai movies, but they pushed too much, the real honor is defending your homeland and your people when you are in charge of the army and especially against an enemy that has no concept of honor, not losing on purpose like morons to have the moral high-ground.
Also i was never a fan of jin, he was a soft spoken boring fuck so i'm really not gonna miss him.
Yotei look mid as fuck but the change of protagonist is the last of my problem.
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