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[Fabieter]

This idea that that everyone is trying to force everything on you guys is just the weirdest fucking persecution complex that I can't wrap my head around. Nobody is persecuting you guys, these are all reactions to market and societal conditions.

Must be the reason more and more of those games fail horribly. There is plenty of room between all of it without going full woke.

 

[DevilHunterX0]

"in countries that hate you."

Well invaders are rarely welcome.

 

[Windom Earle]

or, you know, just don't play it at all.

Yes, that is what we will do.

 

[saintjules]

I often wondered why the chuds get so triggered by real-looking women and have worked it out, they're terrified of them as they have had no contact with them (and likely never will), their only knowledge of women is from porn and Movies/TVs, that's why they obsess over Hollywood-type looks, it's all they know.
It's really tragic, I'd feel sorry for them if they weren't so nasty about the women.

See you next month

 

[Beretta]

For fairly obvious commercial reasons.


If this is the standard to be applied -it's not a problem so long as it doesn't kill you- then there was no problem with your having to play mostly male characters.


This option was also available before. The issue is a chunk of the male audience often opts for that 'just don't play it' option, and does not get replaced by female audience because females (as a group) are just inherently less inclined toward combat-oriented media. Then the company acts astonished and wonders where their male audience has gone and why the imaginary female audience hasn't materialised to replace them, as though this wasn't the most likely outcome.

I have zero issues playing as male characters and prefer them over female characters. Was just saying females have had to mostly play as male characters but female characters start maining a few games and guys start complaining.

In general, I don't care if the main is a male or female, I just want a good game. At the end of the day, if they want a female lead, that's their prerogative and there's probably very little anyone can do to change it so no point in complaining. It's a character in a video game…people throwing tantrums because the main character isn't the same gender they are is silly to me but I guess I just look at games differently. I don't base whether I want to play it or not on whether the main has tits or a dick but if that's what some people do, all the more power to ya, I just hope it's a great game like the first one.

 

[HerjansEagleFeeder]

Hey look, another Western take on the role of women in Japanese culture. I'm sure this time it'll be fine. I mean developers these days have professors and shit.

 

[Topher]

I have zero issues playing as male characters and prefer them over female characters. Was just saying females have had to mostly play as male characters but female characters start maining a few games and guys start complaining.

In general, I don't care if the main is a male or female, I just want a good game. At the end of the day, if they want a female lead, that's their prerogative and there's probably very little anyone can do to change it so no point in complaining. It's a character in a video game…people throwing tantrums because the main character isn't the same gender they are is silly to me but I guess I just look at games differently. I don't base whether I want to play it or not on whether the main has tits or a dick but if that's what some people do, all the more power to ya, I just hope it's a great game like the first one.

Pretty much how I feel as well. Don't care if the main character is male or female in most cases. I do think the characters should be more attractive though. I look at Hollywood actors/actresses and I see people who were selected for roles because they are visually appealing just as much as for their ability to perform. Video game developers seem to be engaging in some virtue signaling by purposefully making characters unattractive and I don't get it. But, as you say, as long as it is a good game then I can usually overlook this kind of thing. In any case, great games > identity politics. To me anyway.

 

[firegamer273]

that means she has no brains right?

 

[midnightAI]

Hey look, another Western take on the role of women in Japanese culture. I'm sure this time it'll be fine. I mean developers these days have professors and shit.

Well seeing as how well received Ghost of Tsushima was received in Japan due to how well they respected the culture, then yeh, should be no issue

Ghost Of Tsushima Is Being Praised By Japanese Critics - Kotaku

So far, the critical consensus is that Ghost of Tsushima does an admirable job of bringing 13th century Japan to life.

kotaku.com

(Yes, I know that's Kotaku, but they are the ones listing quotes from other Japanese reviews/media)

 

[scydrex]

What the fuck have I bought the ps5 for mate, seriously. This whole gen, except Demon Souls and Astro Bot, has been a shitshow.

Sell it and get a PC or an Xbox if you want gamepass.

 

[calico]

At the end of the day, if they want a female lead, that's their prerogative and there's probably very little anyone can do to change it so no point in complaining.

I agree it's their prerogative. I disagree with your conclusion, unless you only mean this game specifically.

 

[MidGenRefresh]

Won't even bother to pirate this.

 

[viveks86]

I'm not asking for a protective bubble or an echo chamber - you're strawmanning (also bad forum etiquette) -

Nice gotcha. But strawman-ing is not inherently bad forum etiquette. Strawman-ing and steelman-ing are both tools of civil debate. Sometimes, strawman-ing can actually be effective to be entertaining while also sincerely putting across a point, or forcing the other side to reckon with weaknesses in their argument. Strawman-ing can be criticized when used unfairly, but it's absolutely protected in a forum. Now with regard to the alleged protective bubble, you are free to think I'm strawman-ing, but I'm just pointing out how your post comes across. Not what you actually want. I'm not a mind reader. If a critique of your critique is avoided, then all that is left is your critique. The end result is indeed a protected bubble of well aligned opinions. Hence my comment.

I'm simply pointing out that one side is criticising the product and its creators, the other side is criticising the criticisers.

That's an accurate, but trivial observation. There's nothing wrong with that. When the topic becomes about criticizing the product and its creators, the means to express a disagreement is to defend the product and/or its creators and/or criticize the criticizer's viewpoint. It's par for the course. Like I said above, absent of this criticism, what you get is an echo chamber.

One side is articulating their concerns and submitting them to the arena of debate, the other is insulting them for doing so.

Who is strawman-ing now? The one person who was clearly insulting people was banned. Most of the rest are just debating and arguing well within forum rules. That includes strawman-ing too. And when it comes to name-calling, didn't you just lump all users with counter opinions as a "punch down defense squad" as if we are an organized hive mind? And by calling it punching down, you are (likely unwittingly) alleging some kind of corporate backing. How else would there be a power dynamic at play at all? I don't feel insulted, but if I were thin-skinned, that would be pretty damn insulting to me. How many people in here even insulted you for you to keep repeating this claim? I'm seeing you calling mckmas8808 "bent out of shape" when all he did was disagree with you and post a counter. Not seeing much anger from his side. You seemed mildly more angry, if I am being honest. He now feels gaslit and deserves a hug for that.

The latter side is performing as the intellectual superiors whilst being demonstrably the intellectual lessers

Sounds to me like you are now claiming intellectual superiority. Are you? The reality is neither are intellectually superior as a whole. There are good debaters on both sides and bad faith posters on both sides.

attempting to shut down discussion or turn it into a slagging match. Can you not see that disparity?

I see the disparity, but only as a lack of uniformity. Which is healthy for a forum. There's no disparity in the ability to voice an opinion. Like I said before, there is nothing being shutdown. Has anyone aligned with your opinion been intimidated into silence? There is no Resetera-style threat from moderation either. Sorry to say, but you are crying wolf because you may be seeing heated dissent as an insult. I would highly recommend thicker skin.

It's a form of protest and protesters don't generally go out, do one demonstration and then call it a day.

Someone pointed this out earlier, albeit with more flagrant words, but your language of "punching up to corporations", "consumer rights" and now "protest" are words straight from books of activism. Is that your goal? To bring about actual change with your voice? Nothing wrong with activism per se, but if so, you should proudly admit it. I suspect you may be using these words to artificially bolster your argument without actually advocating activism against the corporations. But I may be wrong. Most of us just want to play games we like and praise, analyze, critique or complain about them here. Nothing more. Nothing less. You may feel that way too, but the words you use are suggesting otherwise. I believe that even having intellectually bankrupt, flawless girlbosses in videogames isn't some oppression of the male psyche that is taking away our rights. It will be subject to free market capitalism at the end of the day. But if you want this to be a form of protest, because media like this may be accelerating long term social decay and may enable corporate abuse of public goodwill, then more power to you. Protest. Organize. Activate people and bring about lasting change. But do it openly as an activist with pride and self awareness.

Pardon my word count. Just trying to articulate the best way I know. I mean no offense. Just challenging your thought process

 

[viveks86]

I agree it's their prerogative. I disagree with your conclusion, unless you only mean this game specifically.

Of course she means this game specifically. Longer term, I'm sure the industry is recalibrating as we speak. This back and forth will happen till a happy medium is reached. But there is no "Restore Defaults" anymore.

 

[calico]

Of course she means this game specifically.

Unclear. If so, then the point of the complaining / pushback has been missed.

But there is no "Restore Defaults" anymore.

Time will tell. I don't expect it to come to rest at a 'happy medium' between the status quo ante and the woke experiment, because I consider the former -treating men and women as different groups with different tastes, with naturally male-oriented entertainment being tailored toward males- to be the commercially optimal position and the latter to be an anomaly inorganically arrived at for insane ideological reasons. That ideology doesn't quite have a stake through its heart yet but we're getting there. Commercial reality will eventually reassert itself and I expect that will look a lot like it did before.

 

[viveks86]

Unclear. If so, then the point of the complaining / pushback has been missed.

Fair point. I was only commenting on the "it's too late" part. It's only too late for this game, for obvious reasons. The rest of the pushback though, I'll refrain from commenting as it would be a retread for me.

Time will tell.

What if we get taken over by AI and get plugged into a woke Matrix? Imagine all the "content" we would need to feed on.

Come to think of it, most people here feel that way already, so may be not that different as I'm imagining it…

 

[Memati187]

Sell it and get a PC or an Xbox if you want gamepass.

I have a pc, but xbox I would never ever buy.

 

[Dirk Benedict]

What the fuck have I bought the ps5 for mate, seriously. This whole gen, except Demon Souls and Astro Bot, has been a shitshow.

Glad I skipped out. Now… just give me Demon's Remake on PC and I'll be more than satisfied with missing out on PS5 hardware.

 

[Hemingwayoffbase]

The haikus were good
Jin will now be sorely missed
Contemplate nothing

 

[BbMajor7th]

Nice gotcha. But strawman-ing is not inherently bad forum etiquette. Strawman-ing and steelman-ing are both tools of civil debate. Sometimes, strawman-ing can actually be effective to be entertaining while also sincerely putting across a point, or forcing the other side to reckon with weaknesses in their argument. Strawman-ing can be criticized when used unfairly, but it's absolutely protected in a forum. Now with regard to the alleged protective bubble, you are free to think I'm strawman-ing, but I'm just pointing out how your post comes across. Not what you actually want. I'm not a mind reader. If a critique of your critique is avoided, then all that is left is your critique. The end result is indeed a protected bubble of well aligned opinions. Hence my comment.

To strawman is to deliberately mis-characterize your opponent's position as a way to discredit them. It's one of the least sophisticated and laziest debate tricks going. You we're called on it, you should own it - no one gains anything by dishonesty. To say this is how it came across is only to admit you didn't read the post carefully - you needn't be a mind reader just a regular reader. All of this, though, is more sophistry - your whole position is now built on it because you're more interested in 'winning' a debate than gaining something from the discussion.

You said above : "I'm just pointing out how your post comes across. Not what you actually want." While previously, you argued, "...what you are expecting is a protective bubble, an echo chamber, where only your ideas are freely expressed and should not be undermined." What's the difference between what I 'want' and what I'm 'expecting'? In this context the meaning seems largely synonymous, no? What's the difference between 'wanting' and echo chamber and 'expecting' one?

The last strawman here is "If a critique of your critique is avoided, then all that is left is your critique." Which, again I didn't argue. Critique of critique is fine and I said as much already, it's what I'm doing right now: addressing someone else's argument. My complaint was that most - if not all - pushback on the game's critique in this thread was in the form of insults or ad hominem - aimed at the individuals rather than their statements - which you've already agreed is a poor form of argument.

I'm curious as to why you're continuing this debate, though. As far as I can tell, I've made a case for more civil discussion and I've taken aim at people throwing insults around instead of arguments. If you honestly think that insults are fine in this context and that strawmanning is reasonable and constructive, I won't try to change your mind, because you can either accept a logical fallacy or you can't - it's not up for debate. You can also maintain the Earth is flat, that water is a solid or that married men can also be bachelors, but if you can't show the working you're just being stubbornly intransigent at nobody's cost but your own.

 

[viveks86]

To strawman is to deliberately mis-characterize your opponent's position as a way to discredit them. It's one of the least sophisticated and laziest debate tricks going.

Sure. We agree on the definition. And it indeed is a lazy debate trick. I've called it out myself on this thread. There are worse things people can do here though. Like trolling, insulting, bad faith commentary, harassing or drive bys. I'm just saying strawman-ing is not inherently bad etiquette, unless that's all the poster is doing all the time. If you aren't thin-skinned, it can even be entertaining. Let's say through magic, you were made thin-skinned AND super woke on NeoGAF for just a day. See how it feels around here. Every other post would read like a strawman at best and an insult at worst.

You we're called on it, you should own it - no one gains anything by dishonesty. To say this is how it came across is only to admit you didn't read the post carefully - you needn't be a mind reader just a regular reader. All of this, though, is more sophistry - your whole position is now built on it because you're more interested in 'winning' a debate than gaining something from the discussion.

Right. Just because you called it out, I should own it right? And now my whole position is based on sophistry? If you said it, it must be true, because they can't possibly be strawmans of your own... And let's not get into the "read my post carefully" BS. We are both reading just fine.

I already said why I believe it isn't a strawman. I'll explain it again in a bit, as you have asked for a difference between 'wanting' and 'expecting'. Not interested in who wins this discussion. I've seen my share of people throw that card after a couple of exchanges, perhaps out of exhaustion or boredom as they don't want to sustain the debate with the same person. They want to move on and that's fine. If this is exhausting or not interesting, you are free to disengage, call it a fruitless exchange and/or don't respond. Don't worry, I won't declare victory over an anonymous stranger on a gaming forum, even to myself, as if that means anything at all. I always drive towards a middle ground that we can agree on, in the pursuit of some mutual understanding. And some times that includes challenging the same point multiple times to see if there is unexplored nuance, such as your actual level of openness to criticism without insults. People say things and often don't even know or care if what they said comes across as intended. Feel free to peruse other exchanges I have had with others in this very thread, if you want to really understand my motivations. Not one ended with "screw it, this is pointless" or either side ignoring the other. I've even agreed with the opposing side on certain sub-topics like the unrealistic depiction of female physical capacity or their tendency to engage in mass physical violence. Of course, some exchanges never go anywhere. It is what it is.

What's the difference between what I 'want' and what I'm 'expecting'?

Shocking news. You already know the answer. There is no difference. The difference I was highlighting was between you saying what you want and me saying what you want. When you say it in good faith, it represents your thoughts. When I say it in good faith, it represents how your thoughts came across to me. I actually don't know what you want. Only you do. All I can be is a regular reader, like you said. And as a regular reader, you initially came across as someone who just wants to say their piece and not be challenged. That doesn't seem to be the case, so that's good. But then, what is it? You used powerful phrases like "punching up", which requires quite a bit of thick skin to even embark on, but you are so bothered by throw away insults? How is GAF even a place for "punching up"? "Sending strongly worded thought bubbles up" is more accurate. Let me send these bubbles up, please don't poke it with insults? Is that all you are saying? If so, then this conversation has concluded. We agree. No one should be insulting.

You keep bringing up insults, like that's the majority of this thread. I'm not seeing that, especially after the initial heat had worn off. People are just debating, some more aggressively than others, but civil nonetheless. A lot of strawman-ing, sure. But not as many insults and certainly not the majority. May be you need to clarify what you even consider an insult. For me, unless someone specifically targets me and treats me like a lesser being, intellectually or morally, or just brands me with derogatory terms like "chud" for example, it is not an insult. Screaming at the clouds without tagging anybody is a fart in the wind. Nothing insulting about that.

The last strawman here is "If a critique of your critique is avoided, then all that is left is your critique." Which, again I didn't argue. Critique of critique is fine and I said as much already, it's what I'm doing right now: addressing someone else's argument.

How is that a strawman? From your prior response, I was already aware that we are in agreement. I literally called this part "accurate". I just added to it to say it should be preserved to prevent an echo chamber. One of the few things we agree on, actually.

My complaint was that most - if not all - pushback on the game's critique in this thread was in the form of insults or ad hominem - aimed at the individuals rather than their statements - which you've already agreed is a poor form of argument.

This is really the point of contention. You think the majority are insults and ad hominem and I don't think so. You are yet to provide any evidence of this happening to you. I'll ask again. How many that have engaged with you had insulted you and called you names? Show evidence. Otherwise, you are crying wolf.

I'm curious as to why you're continuing this debate, though.

Like I said earlier, I always continue in the attempt to find a middle ground. Seeing nothing satisfactory that is worth pointing out so far. But you are free to disengage if you want. It's not about winning. It's about trying to understand what the hell is the crux of the opposing point of view. May be you have understood me and this is wasting your time. But I think I haven't understood you yet. I'm making the assumption in your favor, that you are trying to convey more than "don't poke at my thought bubbles with insults". So I wouldn't say it's a waste of my time.

As far as I can tell, I've made a case for more civil discussion and I've taken aim at people throwing insults around instead of arguments.

You made a case alright. But I don't see the aiming. All I see is scatter shots. Again, if you want to take aim, call specific people and posts out that insulted you and tell them why you found it so insulting. May be they will learn a thing or two. Or may be you will learn something about them. Or if you don't want to engage with them, because that would not stimulate your superior intellect (your words, not mine), report to mods. Otherwise you are just complaining into the ether. The people who quoted you have been fairly civil, as far as I can tell, which is why it all feels like much ado about nothing.

If you honestly think that insults are fine in this context and that strawmanning is reasonable and constructive, I won't try to change your mind, because you can either accept a logical fallacy or you can't - it's not up for debate. You can also maintain the Earth is flat, that water is a solid or that married men can also be bachelors, but if you can't show the working you're just being stubbornly intransigent at nobody's cost but your own

Man, this part is too ironic to respond to without snark, but I'll try. I'll make it clear once again (as if my very first response to you wasn't clear enough), that insulting is NOT fine. Strawman-ing though is just... whatever. It's not a good way to convey the point, but it's fine if done while also saying other thought-provoking things.

May be that's the middle ground we will ever reach. That insulting is bad, strawman-ing is lazy, but it's ok to criticize the criticizers. Not very insightful, is it? Which is why I'm continuing the debate in good faith. We have gone from "punching up to corporations" to something far less potent. This is supposed to be a topic on Jin or Atsu and we didn't even get to that. But given we continued after my first response, I was hoping for an interesting detour on what our attitudes towards video game makers should be and if complaining on GAF can even be a viable form of "protest" or if anti-woke activism could be useful. Instead we are still talking about the part that is just so damn easy to report and/or ignore i.e insults. We are on a forum with anonymity where it's literally free to sign up. This is as civil as it will ever get. Try posting politically/culturally charged thoughts on X and see how that pans out.

 

[mckmas8808]

Yup - the well has been poisoned. It's a totally self-inflicted wound. I absolutely side-eye western studios now when it comes to this stuff - and they absolutely deserve it.

People can contain themselves and stop being beta males also. People can have self-control. Not everything is woke.