Schrödinger's cat
Banned
Gamesmedialol should not be circling their wagons. They should be offering greater transparency and accountability.
Hey, uh, has this ever happened? (McElroy: GAF has actively tried to fool the press)
- Thread starter shadyspace
- Start date
Of course, but this McElroy sort of imples that news we discuss that isn't correct are out to "trick them". That to me sounds like he's treating this site as a news source and not for what it really is.
Whoever that was, he sounds very sensitive. Good thing he isn't in this thread.
It's still a constructive discussion if you use some selective editing.
For what it's worth, I couldn't care less if the dude loves Skyrim and masturbates to a signed picture of Todd Howard. My only issue is that he apparently uses GAF as a news source, doesn't vet the information garnered from here in a professional manner, and then bitches when we - as enthusiasts - steered him in the wrong direction.
creamhackered
Member
Hey guys.
Tom Warren here (Senior Editor at The Verge). I posted this story at The Verge yesterday. I just wanted to clear up a few things and address some points I've seen posted elsewhere etc. The Xbox 720 leak was covered by The Verge at The Verge, not Polygon at The Verge. I know the temporary home can be confusing at times, but thought it was important to point that out.
As for how we check these types of stories. I have been reporting on Microsoft for around 12 years now. That's not to say I know everything about Microsoft and its processes, but I have a fairly good idea of what is and isn't an internal doc usually after the first few pages. This document in question is from August 2010, prior to iOS 4.2 (mentioned in the PPT notes) and when certain team members (mentioned in doc notes) were still at the company in engineering roles. The document references several employees by name and uses one of Microsoft's internal "CSG_Pres" PowerPoint templates (an early example of their Metro style PowerPoint templates that are used regularly internally now).
Couple this with the fact it aligns with other information I've seen about Nextbox over the past year, it aligned perfectly. The document also references Microsoft's SmartGlass technology (announced at E3). I went through a number of other ways to verify the information was as accurate as other stories we would report on - I'm not going to outline the exact processes because I like to keep those secret
We make every attempt to ensure this type of data is accurate. I ran a number of stories ahead of this year's E3, and they were all accurate:
Microsoft to bring full Internet Explorer browsing to Xbox 360 with Kinect controls
Exclusive: Kinect Play Fit to offer universal exercise tracking with 'Joule' heart rate monitor
Exclusive: $99 Xbox 360 + Kinect bundle launching next week with two-year subscription
Exclusive: Microsoft to preview 'Woodstock' Xbox music service at E3
Hopefully this clears up any questions over how we vet this type of information. I don't typically report on Xbox or gaming news (its not my core knowledge) but I do enjoy reading Neogaf threads from time to time. You guys have an amazing community here so keep it up
Thanks,
Tom
Tom Warren here (Senior Editor at The Verge). I posted this story at The Verge yesterday. I just wanted to clear up a few things and address some points I've seen posted elsewhere etc. The Xbox 720 leak was covered by The Verge at The Verge, not Polygon at The Verge. I know the temporary home can be confusing at times, but thought it was important to point that out.
As for how we check these types of stories. I have been reporting on Microsoft for around 12 years now. That's not to say I know everything about Microsoft and its processes, but I have a fairly good idea of what is and isn't an internal doc usually after the first few pages. This document in question is from August 2010, prior to iOS 4.2 (mentioned in the PPT notes) and when certain team members (mentioned in doc notes) were still at the company in engineering roles. The document references several employees by name and uses one of Microsoft's internal "CSG_Pres" PowerPoint templates (an early example of their Metro style PowerPoint templates that are used regularly internally now).
Couple this with the fact it aligns with other information I've seen about Nextbox over the past year, it aligned perfectly. The document also references Microsoft's SmartGlass technology (announced at E3). I went through a number of other ways to verify the information was as accurate as other stories we would report on - I'm not going to outline the exact processes because I like to keep those secret
We make every attempt to ensure this type of data is accurate. I ran a number of stories ahead of this year's E3, and they were all accurate:
Microsoft to bring full Internet Explorer browsing to Xbox 360 with Kinect controls
Exclusive: Kinect Play Fit to offer universal exercise tracking with 'Joule' heart rate monitor
Exclusive: $99 Xbox 360 + Kinect bundle launching next week with two-year subscription
Exclusive: Microsoft to preview 'Woodstock' Xbox music service at E3
Hopefully this clears up any questions over how we vet this type of information. I don't typically report on Xbox or gaming news (its not my core knowledge) but I do enjoy reading Neogaf threads from time to time. You guys have an amazing community here so keep it up
Thanks,
Tom
What are the standards for labeling things leaks, rumors, fake etc? I mean pretty much every story i've seen reported treats it like it is legit (or at least was legit back in 2010). The slides have been taken down a law firm that works for Microsoft now so there is that, but they posted these stories before. The slides are their source, with NeoGAF cited as where they were alerted to the source. Justin's comments seem separate from this point, but NeoGAF wasn't really their "source". They also probably reported it as true because of NukeZilla reporting from last month on the same details. Doesn't explain how you can decide it's legit without some other information. Do they have secret sources we are unaware of? Possible, but they don't mention it.
EDIT: Well speak of the devil. I got my answer, and i'm satisfied.
EDIT: Well speak of the devil. I got my answer, and i'm satisfied.
When you get the chance, tell MS that if they're looking for someone who can use PPT properly, I'll be finishing my MBA next year. Thanks.
Hopefully this clears up any questions over how we vet this type of information. I don't typically report on Xbox or gaming news (its not my core knowledge) but I do enjoy reading Neogaf threads from time to time. You guys have an amazing community here so keep it up
Thanks,
Tom
Huh, thanks for the response. Very, very interesting and significant leak, I wonder how many heads will roll. The Verge is great, keep it up.
Mister Negative
Member
So uh, he really dropped the hammer on us there, didn't he?
So basically you still don't know if it's actually real, but it lines up with Microsoft's internal document creation templates and some unrevealed information that you already had access to.
Seems alright.
This whole minor controversy could have been avoided if McElroy had simply responded to Klepek's original tweet with:
"Yes."
It would have been much more effective than those wagon circling anti-GAF nonsense tweets, but whatever.
No harm no foul I guess.
Also
Seems alright.
This whole minor controversy could have been avoided if McElroy had simply responded to Klepek's original tweet with:
"Yes."
It would have been much more effective than those wagon circling anti-GAF nonsense tweets, but whatever.
No harm no foul I guess.
Also
I found this humorously nonsensical.
Tom,
Good on you for running damage control, but you gotta keep a lid on your guys. You don't throw one of the largest and, apparently, influential gaming communities under the bus on a public forum like that. As a persual through this thread will illustrate, Justin seems to act first and think later. "Jokes" or not, situations such as the Nier "review", Skyrim dancing, and the like do nothing but undermine his credibility, and the credibility of Polygon (and by extension, The Verge).
Patrick Bateman
Member
I never knew that GAF was THAT important for game journalists to get their news stories..
creamhackered
Member
I think the fact Microsoft is a client of Covington & Burling LLP says a lot
http://www.scribd.com/word/removal/92821757
Put it another way, I know it's real.
I'm not running damage control, I just wanted to address the points I've seen about it being fake and to clear up it was The Verge that posted this and investigated it.
It seems to me that the issue here is less the 720 leak and more that a colleague asking someone about the leak provoked some bizarre defensiveness and a complete non-sequitur attack on Gaf.
If you are going to freak the fuck out when you run a story and someone asks "how well is this story vetted?" you are maybe in the wrong business.
If you are going to freak the fuck out when you run a story and someone asks "how well is this story vetted?" you are maybe in the wrong business.
SlipperyFishes
Banned
Hey guys.
Tom Warren here (Senior Editor at The Verge). I posted this story at The Verge yesterday. I just wanted to clear up a few things and address some points I've seen posted elsewhere etc. The Xbox 720 leak was covered by The Verge at The Verge, not Polygon at The Verge. I know the temporary home can be confusing at times, but thought it was important to point that out.
As for how we check these types of stories. I have been reporting on Microsoft for around 12 years now. That's not to say I know everything about Microsoft and its processes, but I have a fairly good idea of what is and isn't an internal doc usually after the first few pages. This document in question is from August 2010, prior to iOS 4.2 (mentioned in the PPT notes) and when certain team members (mentioned in doc notes) were still at the company in engineering roles. The document references several employees by name and uses one of Microsoft's internal "CSG_Pres" PowerPoint templates (an early example of their Metro style PowerPoint templates that are used regularly internally now).
Couple this with the fact it aligns with other information I've seen about Nextbox over the past year, it aligned perfectly. The document also references Microsoft's SmartGlass technology (announced at E3). I went through a number of other ways to verify the information was as accurate as other stories we would report on - I'm not going to outline the exact processes because I like to keep those secret
We make every attempt to ensure this type of data is accurate. I ran a number of stories ahead of this year's E3, and they were all accurate:
Microsoft to bring full Internet Explorer browsing to Xbox 360 with Kinect controls
Exclusive: Kinect Play Fit to offer universal exercise tracking with 'Joule' heart rate monitor
Exclusive: $99 Xbox 360 + Kinect bundle launching next week with two-year subscription
Exclusive: Microsoft to preview 'Woodstock' Xbox music service at E3
Hopefully this clears up any questions over how we vet this type of information. I don't typically report on Xbox or gaming news (its not my core knowledge) but I do enjoy reading Neogaf threads from time to time. You guys have an amazing community here so keep it up
Thanks,
Tom
Seems perfectly reasonable. If only this mcelroy guy had posted something like this instead of being defensive and petulant...
Thanks for further clarification. You'll forgive me for coming across so harshly, I'm sure you can imagine how an incident like this might leave a sour taste in GAFfers' mouths.
Gaf is ruthless, people loved Justin McElroy when he was on the bombcast at E3.
Tom, thanks for coming to clear things up. I usually take rumours posted on theverge pretty seriously because I remember back in the engadget days Josh and co would frequently talk about how they pride themselves on not posting stuff unless they are very confident in the source, so I was suprised to see you pick up something that looked to be very suspicious, but it sounds like you had good reason to post it.
I still think the leak is jubious, the $299 price point in particular feels very off base, but its suposedly from 2010 so a lot might have changed and who knows how rough it was to begin with.
Tom, thanks for coming to clear things up. I usually take rumours posted on theverge pretty seriously because I remember back in the engadget days Josh and co would frequently talk about how they pride themselves on not posting stuff unless they are very confident in the source, so I was suprised to see you pick up something that looked to be very suspicious, but it sounds like you had good reason to post it.
I still think the leak is jubious, the $299 price point in particular feels very off base, but its suposedly from 2010 so a lot might have changed and who knows how rough it was to begin with.
homersimpsonnodding.gif
And people still love him for that. Do we really need to bring out a Venn diagram so people don't constantly talk about how all of GAF shares one opinion?
(This is not just in response to your post.)
They're watching us. Quick. Flush the drugs. Act naturally. Put some pants on. Smile... Hi Tom!
Too many characters to fit twitter.
Too many characters to fit twitter.
Dreams-Visions
Member
it's just that fucking simple.
McElroy was probably referring to this thread with his snipe at GAF:
Game "Journalism": Major sites fooled by 4chan, Jason Schreier offers GAF apology
I think he mixed up 4chan with GAF.
Game "Journalism": Major sites fooled by 4chan, Jason Schreier offers GAF apology
I think he mixed up 4chan with GAF.
DaxMedFlax
Member
To be honest, I do kind of see where McElroy is coming from with that first response tweet. Patrick Klepek more or less straight up said that the Verge (and other outlets) posted the leak story without any independent reporting. This was just an assumption on Klepek's part, and somewhat cocky imo..
Why McElroy decided to go after Gaf I do not understand though.
Why McElroy decided to go after Gaf I do not understand though.
I like Justin McElroy. Have done for a while. Thought he used to be great on the Joystiq podcast and whatnot.
Really comes across quite terrible in those tweets, though. To lump GAF into some collective group and then take a "Who are you to question me" stance is pretty outrageous. There will be people on this forum who are smarter, earn much, much more and who achieve way, way more in life than somebody who amounts to little more than a videogame journalist. To get so salty, so defensive and so rude about a forum of videogame enthusiasts because he happens to be in a position of paid "authority" over what he perceives to be a collection of those people really stinks.
But this is why I hate videogame journalism. The whole system has some serious growing up to do, and that includes everything from the way "journalists" handle themselves in public, to the way they source information, to the way they go about their reporting, to the way videogame fans see and respond to that information when it's posted.
Really comes across quite terrible in those tweets, though. To lump GAF into some collective group and then take a "Who are you to question me" stance is pretty outrageous. There will be people on this forum who are smarter, earn much, much more and who achieve way, way more in life than somebody who amounts to little more than a videogame journalist. To get so salty, so defensive and so rude about a forum of videogame enthusiasts because he happens to be in a position of paid "authority" over what he perceives to be a collection of those people really stinks.
But this is why I hate videogame journalism. The whole system has some serious growing up to do, and that includes everything from the way "journalists" handle themselves in public, to the way they source information, to the way they go about their reporting, to the way videogame fans see and respond to that information when it's posted.
The first mistake was reading anything by Klepek. The second mistake was being mean to GAF. The third mistake was GAF caring.
The thing that's stupid about addressing GAF as a whole rather than individual users of GAF is that it's really the most consistent way to create the hivemind many seem so concerned about. 'Cause if you attack 'GAF' indiscriminately, guess what? You just pissed off everyone here.
PowerSmell
Member
So they're press now?
Anyways, GAF is a totally valid news source since so many viral marketers post here. You're basically info directly from the source.
Anyways, GAF is a totally valid news source since so many viral marketers post here. You're basically info directly from the source.
GlamFM
Banned
I will say that the general tone on GAF has shifted in the last year or so.
GAF seems to be overly negative towards almost everything and everybody.
There is plenty of trash talk to be found in every thread about everybody who works in the industry - especially journalists.
It´s kind of losing what made GAF special and drifting towards standard internet level.
I enjoy it less that´s for sure.
GAF seems to be overly negative towards almost everything and everybody.
There is plenty of trash talk to be found in every thread about everybody who works in the industry - especially journalists.
It´s kind of losing what made GAF special and drifting towards standard internet level.
I enjoy it less that´s for sure.
legendnthamaking
Banned
For those who don't know who Justin McElroy is:
Edit: got that covered, Y2Kev
That image still remains one of the most sad and disgusting examples of fanboyism I've seen in a long time.
Thats funny because I see it completely opposite, at least in regards to games journalism.
NeoGAF is one of the few places that seem to have a healthy sceptisism about the state of journalism in the gaming press. Elsewhere its mostly fawning adoration of the people who have "the dream job of writing about games and playing them before anyone else!"
We actually expect real 'journalism' from game journalists
DanteFox
Member
That's why I stopped going to sites like joystiq long ago. I eventually realized that gaf was the source for all the good stories. The rest is history lol.
Nobody is saying Justin isn't pretty hilarious on podcasts. He is.
He just has a terrible work ethic and doesn't take his job seriously. Coming down on a fellow journalist because he has THE NERVE to ask if the story is sourced properly is just absurd, he deserves every bit of criticism in this thread.
Being funny doesn't help him here.
GlamFM
Banned
Maybe - but that´s not my problem.
I think we sometimes simply forget our good manners.
But, as I said, the negativity does´t end there.
It´s just the overall tone here that I don´t like so much anymore.
I don't. I expect them to blog on the latest press releases and assign a numerical score to a game while following the instructions of the press kit attached to it. Everyone should set that as their base standard and then they'll stop getting offended when they see bloggers are message board posters who got lucky enough to be paid a shitty wage to write crap.
Haunted
Member
hahaha holy shit
McElroy exposed.
See, that's the kind of response I'd expect from an actual journalist, not that McElroy snarky twitter bullshit. Good job.Hey guys.
Tom Warren here (Senior Editor at The Verge). I posted this story at The Verge yesterday. I just wanted to clear up a few things and address some points I've seen posted elsewhere etc. The Xbox 720 leak was covered by The Verge at The Verge, not Polygon at The Verge. I know the temporary home can be confusing at times, but thought it was important to point that out.
As for how we check these types of stories. I have been reporting on Microsoft for around 12 years now. That's not to say I know everything about Microsoft and its processes, but I have a fairly good idea of what is and isn't an internal doc usually after the first few pages. This document in question is from August 2010, prior to iOS 4.2 (mentioned in the PPT notes) and when certain team members (mentioned in doc notes) were still at the company in engineering roles. The document references several employees by name and uses one of Microsoft's internal "CSG_Pres" PowerPoint templates (an early example of their Metro style PowerPoint templates that are used regularly internally now).
Couple this with the fact it aligns with other information I've seen about Nextbox over the past year, it aligned perfectly. The document also references Microsoft's SmartGlass technology (announced at E3). I went through a number of other ways to verify the information was as accurate as other stories we would report on - I'm not going to outline the exact processes because I like to keep those secret
We make every attempt to ensure this type of data is accurate. I ran a number of stories ahead of this year's E3, and they were all accurate:
Microsoft to bring full Internet Explorer browsing to Xbox 360 with Kinect controls
Exclusive: Kinect Play Fit to offer universal exercise tracking with 'Joule' heart rate monitor
Exclusive: $99 Xbox 360 + Kinect bundle launching next week with two-year subscription
Exclusive: Microsoft to preview 'Woodstock' Xbox music service at E3
Hopefully this clears up any questions over how we vet this type of information. I don't typically report on Xbox or gaming news (its not my core knowledge) but I do enjoy reading Neogaf threads from time to time. You guys have an amazing community here so keep it up
Thanks,
Tom
That is clearly not true. You can have GAF as your main source because you get everything aggregated and the moderators are doing a good job of banning the people that are just disrupting without offering insight.
It would be interesting if all the OPs in news threads were the verbatim PR that was send out, because then the middle-man would be out of the question and gaming sites would need to create original content to make them worth visiting.
This. It all just seems weird for him to complain about this forum. And I agree with Patrik, journalists should fact check.
GAF > Internet > GAF
That's how it works. You'd be amazed how many people dig in GAF just for be "the first" announcing something. Specially with foreign media, when no native sources are available.
Hey guys.
Tom Warren here (Senior Editor at The Verge). I posted this story at The Verge yesterday. I just wanted to clear up a few things and address some points I've seen posted elsewhere etc. The Xbox 720 leak was covered by The Verge at The Verge, not Polygon at The Verge. I know the temporary home can be confusing at times, but thought it was important to point that out.
As for how we check these types of stories. I have been reporting on Microsoft for around 12 years now. That's not to say I know everything about Microsoft and its processes, but I have a fairly good idea of what is and isn't an internal doc usually after the first few pages. This document in question is from August 2010, prior to iOS 4.2 (mentioned in the PPT notes) and when certain team members (mentioned in doc notes) were still at the company in engineering roles. The document references several employees by name and uses one of Microsoft's internal "CSG_Pres" PowerPoint templates (an early example of their Metro style PowerPoint templates that are used regularly internally now).
Couple this with the fact it aligns with other information I've seen about Nextbox over the past year, it aligned perfectly. The document also references Microsoft's SmartGlass technology (announced at E3). I went through a number of other ways to verify the information was as accurate as other stories we would report on - I'm not going to outline the exact processes because I like to keep those secret
We make every attempt to ensure this type of data is accurate. I ran a number of stories ahead of this year's E3, and they were all accurate:
Microsoft to bring full Internet Explorer browsing to Xbox 360 with Kinect controls
Exclusive: Kinect Play Fit to offer universal exercise tracking with 'Joule' heart rate monitor
Exclusive: $99 Xbox 360 + Kinect bundle launching next week with two-year subscription
Exclusive: Microsoft to preview 'Woodstock' Xbox music service at E3
Hopefully this clears up any questions over how we vet this type of information. I don't typically report on Xbox or gaming news (its not my core knowledge) but I do enjoy reading Neogaf threads from time to time. You guys have an amazing community here so keep it up
Thanks,
Tom
Hey man. It's cool that you're posting this here, but it would have been nice to see this kind of thing re: its authenticity in the actual story you put on your site as well.
Great response nonetheless.
Hi everybody!
Same here mostly
Anyway as to this whole thing with Justin and that. Justin does seem like a bit of a defensive idiot. Not much more I can say on that... well apart from if he is reading this... you should at least be more professional and not point blame at others.
*shrugs* I do wish more Game Journalists would fact check before posting stuff. I mean Kotaku, IGN, etc are all popular enough that if they did some fact checking (or at least tried to fact check via e-mail with companies PR departments) before posting then they would still get the hits that they do except they will be more 'respected' for doing said fact checking...
edit: It is nice to see that someone from the Verge posted here in response to all this, well done on that
very nice responseThis is actually how I migrated to GAF years ago. I noticed that most of the things I read referred to something called "NeoGAF" as the source.
Same.