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2011 NBA Playoffs |OT| Don't Compare Refs to Cigarettes
- Thread starter reilo
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Adam Blade
WWKC
Happy, Duki?
Black Mamba said:
Bargs is good at scoring, but the problem is he sucks at being a C. He isn't a C. Just like Dirk isn't a C.
Bargs should be playing at the PF position. If he can grab 3 more rebounds a game, and become an average defender he would be worth having on a team at the PF spot.
The problem is, he will NEVER EVER improve his defense, and his defense negates his scoring. So he is just a big pile of shit.
When you put him at the PF spot, all his percentages become better. (.702 EFG)
OpinionatedCyborg
Member
I really hope Colangelo trades Bargnani while his stock is high. The amount of times Bargnani will be allowed to take 18 FGA a game (and only score 21 ppg) is pretty low.
I don't understand why it has to be like this, though. If he put in a bit of effort/grew a brain, he could easily get 8 rebounds a game. That is still sub-par... but it would be acceptable. He isn't even a horrible defender at the PF position (he is just an atrocious help defender, so playing him center is a recipe in disaster).
I think he is my most hated player ever. He sucks at everything a big man should do. He plays offense like a small forward at .25x speed. He relies on jumpshots and horrifically mechnical pump fakes. Sometimes he tries posting up... he is far less effective than Lebron and even less refined than Lebron in the post. He is a horrible passer. I could go on and on. There are some cancers that are fun to watch. Guys with crazy dunks, guys who take ill advised 3s... but make them... guys with some style to their game. Bargnani is this chunky Italian sloth that takes ugly jumpshots, makes awkward drives to the basket, and perpetually breathes through his mouth. His laziness and dry, mechnical, and ineffective game drives me insane. ugh.
I don't understand why it has to be like this, though. If he put in a bit of effort/grew a brain, he could easily get 8 rebounds a game. That is still sub-par... but it would be acceptable. He isn't even a horrible defender at the PF position (he is just an atrocious help defender, so playing him center is a recipe in disaster).
I think he is my most hated player ever. He sucks at everything a big man should do. He plays offense like a small forward at .25x speed. He relies on jumpshots and horrifically mechnical pump fakes. Sometimes he tries posting up... he is far less effective than Lebron and even less refined than Lebron in the post. He is a horrible passer. I could go on and on. There are some cancers that are fun to watch. Guys with crazy dunks, guys who take ill advised 3s... but make them... guys with some style to their game. Bargnani is this chunky Italian sloth that takes ugly jumpshots, makes awkward drives to the basket, and perpetually breathes through his mouth. His laziness and dry, mechnical, and ineffective game drives me insane. ugh.
lawlohwhat
Banned
maybe we should just trade dre for luke and make him play point. you guys underrate him. great passing doesn't always show up on the stat sheet.
Black Mamba
Member
SephCast said:
I don't even think it's close, really.
You're using a sample size of 40 total minutes? Really?
Last season he played roughly 2/3 of his minutes at PF. His efg% was around 52%, TS% around 55.2. That would put him at around 25th PF or 32nd C.
That would be passable if it wasn't his only skill. He has one skill and he's not even that good at it. This would be like a dude whose only NBA skill is to shoot 3s and yet he shoots them at 34% every season.
A part of me believes Toronto is the only team that thinks he's not garbage. For their sake, I hope I am wrong.
etiolate said:
WTF, I don't even know what to make of this.
Black Mamba said:
Well if the Raptors-age on GAF is a good representation of the entire fanbase, I'd say the consensus is that he's trash.
At best he'd be good coming off the bench.
Don't let the scoring fool you, he makes his team worse by playing well on offense and his defense is non-existant.
I've been watching his game for a while and I'd say he's like fools gold, at first you think he's worth something but after a while you realize all you got was crap.
Don't hate me Mamba but I think he's work pretty well on the Lakers bench. And playing 15mins. Playing PF.
So long as he plays alongside any BIG with a shred of defense he's good.
He can be clutch, so long as he camps on the three point line & he only gets to shoot 5 or less a game.
Boombloxer
Member
Derwind said:Well if the Raptors-age on GAF is a good representation of the entire fanbase, I'd say the consensus is that he's trash.
At best he'd be good coming off the bench.
Don't let the scoring fool you, he makes his team worse by playing well on offense and his defense is non-existant.
I've been watching his game for a while and I'd say he's like fools gold, at first you think he's worth something but after a while you realize all you got was crap.
Don't hate me Mamba but I think he's work pretty well on the Lakers bench. And playing 15mins. Playing PF.
So long as he plays alongside any BIG with a shred of defense he's good.
I'd say NY, but they already have a PF who doesn't play D. Maybe Orlando.
Adam Blade
WWKC
The Frankman
Banned
argument could be made that Bargs with Dwight Howard and a good defensive coach who'll send him into a panicked state could improve... not much, but a little.reilo said:
Boombloxer
Member
reilo said:
Because when you can overpay, you must do it.
Just go with it.
Any team that already has enough defensive talent that they could afford having Bargnani's cancer D on there team is a good trade.
He'd be coming off the bench or god forbid, become a starting power forward if the teams that desperate for a PF.
He needs to be paired with a good center.
His offensive game isn't so bad, I mean last season he finally became comfortable trying to drive in and this season he's showed something that resembles a back-to-the-basket game. Obviously, he's not the best at either one but he can give you the odd effort once in a while.
He is your decent 7 foot 2 jumpshooter.
Again, he has no defensive game to speak of and he'll only get you 5 rebounds a game at most 8...very rarely 10+....
But give him limited minutes and surround him with players who'll draw the D off of him and you got a pretty decent guy coming off the bench. =)
Well, its really, really hard to convince anyone he's worth a trade when his game is so horrible.
Its hard to highlight anything good about him.
Boston actually would be another good trade scenario. XD
Well, I guess he'd be less of a liability if you reduce his minutes to say 10 mins/game?
And reduce that salary to like 2 mill....
and no guaranteed contracts...
He'd be coming off the bench or god forbid, become a starting power forward if the teams that desperate for a PF.
He needs to be paired with a good center.
His offensive game isn't so bad, I mean last season he finally became comfortable trying to drive in and this season he's showed something that resembles a back-to-the-basket game. Obviously, he's not the best at either one but he can give you the odd effort once in a while.
He is your decent 7 foot 2 jumpshooter.
Again, he has no defensive game to speak of and he'll only get you 5 rebounds a game at most 8...very rarely 10+....
But give him limited minutes and surround him with players who'll draw the D off of him and you got a pretty decent guy coming off the bench. =)
Black Mamba said:
Well, its really, really hard to convince anyone he's worth a trade when his game is so horrible.
Its hard to highlight anything good about him.
Boston actually would be another good trade scenario. XD
Black Mamba said:
Well, I guess he'd be less of a liability if you reduce his minutes to say 10 mins/game?
And reduce that salary to like 2 mill....
and no guaranteed contracts...
Black Mamba
Member
Derwind said:Well if the Raptors-age on GAF is a good representation of the entire fanbase, I'd say the consensus is that he's trash.
At best he'd be good coming off the bench.
Don't let the scoring fool you, he makes his team worse by playing well on offense and his defense is non-existant.
I've been watching his game for a while and I'd say he's like fools gold, at first you think he's worth something but after a while you realize all you got was crap.
Don't hate me Mamba but I think he's work pretty well on the Lakers bench. And playing 15mins. Playing PF.
So long as he plays alongside any BIG with a shred of defense he's good.
He can be clutch, so long as he camps on the three point line & he only gets to shoot 5 or less a game.
Toronto-GAF is very good. I've been reading how badly they hate him for a while now (minus youknowwhountilrecently). And I think everything you said about his game is right.
I don't hate you, but I definitely don't want him on the Lakers. Even for 15 minutes. I already had the Kwame experience, don't need the Bargs one!
Honestly, I don't think there's a team he benefit in any way. If I was Miami, I wouldn't swap Joel Anthony for him. Dead serious. But Toronto deserves better, so for their sake I hope they fool some team (not mine!) into him.
I hear Boston is collecting inefficient scoring players who play no defense for their bench
in other words, he needs 4 other guys who all can defend well and don't put him in help situations but can help him, 4 other guys who score as a unit efficiently real well, and 4 other guys who can make up his lack of rebounding. Meaning a super elite rebounding C or a PG/SG/SF crew that is really fucking good.
Eh...
And no, Orlando isn't it.
Black Mamba
Member
they have the rebounding and defense, but not the efficiency around him. And he'd be replacing one of the more efficient players.
They lose on defense and offense in this swap. I think the team would make the playoffs, but wouldn't get farther than the current team.
They come closest to finding use from him. but when Ryan Anderson is a better option...
They lose on defense and offense in this swap. I think the team would make the playoffs, but wouldn't get farther than the current team.
They come closest to finding use from him. but when Ryan Anderson is a better option...
benjipwns
Banned
I've taken care of it for you: http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=3umflvoDerwind said:
Black Mamba said:
The problem is you are comparing his offense to paint playing bigs. He isn't one. He is more in the mold of a Dirk. In fact, he is pretty much a poor mans Dirk. Thats the perfect way to describe him. Most of his acoring comes off shots, and to shot over 50 percent from field goal is very good. He isn't in the lane dunking or getting easy layups.
You are right that offense his is only skill, but he is good at it. He does not get shut down very often, and is the second highest scoring center in the NBA.
You can't just look at numbers. You have to look at their game. You don't watch Raptor games. I wouldn't if I wasn't stuck with them either.
That said, as I stated above. All Bargs talents on offense, are completely negated by his complete lack of defense and rebounding. Only a handful of times have I even seen him play average defense. Let alone anything better.
It also doesn't help the Raptors Jose is probably the worst defensive PG in the NBA.
Black Mamba
Member
If I were Toronto, I'd be trying real hard to trade Bargs for Josh Smith in Atlanta. Convince the Hawks that Bargs will allow Horford to go to the 4, they can start Marvin at the 3, and Heinrich and JJ in the backcourt. convince them they'll get more scoring punch that they need.
Plus, no one in Atlanta cares about basketball, so it's a win-win for everyone.
Plus, no one in Atlanta cares about basketball, so it's a win-win for everyone.
benjipwns said:
Absolutely not!!!! I'm desperate to get rid of bargnani but I would never go through with this!!!!
DeRozan is untouchable & Amir is worth more than Mr.Eyebrowless's soul!!!
I still deny he ever wore a Raptors jersey, I hate the thought >=[
And why would we want Rip's corpse to replace Demar???
Black Mamba said:
This would be my absolutely favourite trade scenario but its an impossible one, I don't think Atlanta could afford to lose anymore D and have another overpaid cancer...plus they already have Jamal Crawford who is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than Bargs as a jump shooter...
but if it happened....my, oh, my...
PG - Bayless, Calderon(FML)
SG - Derzon(WIN), Barbosa, Weems
SF - Johnson(FML), Kleiza(FML), Wright(FML)
PF - Smith(WIN), Johnson, Evans, Dorsey(FML), Davis(WIN)
C- Ajinca(FML), Alabi(FML)
Not bad.....,we'd finally be stacked in the PF position....
Black holes include the center position, small forward position, point guard position....
Black Mamba
Member
Blackface said:
This only works if Dirk is Bill gates and Bargs lives under a bridge in the Congo.
Dirk's career average is 47.6%. Bargs has never shot that high. Dirk is currently at about 52%. Bargs, 45%. Bargs also turns it over more.
Scoring the 2nd most among centers is a meaningless stats. Let me repeat. Last season Bargs was the 57th worst shooter according to TS% among all PF/Cs. That is not good.
If your PF/C shoots 45%, he is worthless. Everyone else in the league gets more efficient production.
The average efg% in the league is around 50%. Bargs is at 48%. And most bigs, I believe, are above average. He is 264th in the league in efg%. Neither this year or last year was he in the top 100 in efg%, fg%, or TS%. Bargs isn't good at scoring, he just takes a shit ton of shots to fool people to think that he is.
He gives nothing to a team but false hope. He is easily the worst NBA player in the league who plays near that many minutes.
Dominican Power
Member
I hope the Knicks can acquire a big man this off season.
Dominican Power
Member
Derwind said:
I don't want soft Euros like Bargnani, Marc Gasol gets my respect though.
Dominican Power
Member
Derwind said:
No thank you.
well i mean that was predicated on it not being some racial shitexarkun said:
on the face of it sticking to the honour code and punishing the dude was some upstanding shit because they chose their morals over their their title hopes effectively
not many schools would do that on account of their principles or w/e
Black Mamba said:
1. Bargs is right around league average for EFG%.
2. You are using stats that completely skew the perspective. Like usual, you don't watch games and toss out meaningless numbers without giving any type of context. Yes, Bargs EFG% isn't as high as other bigs, that's because he shoots tons of 3's, and is depended on to take more shots then almost any center in the NBA, including Dwight Howard. The more shots you take, the later in the game it is, the more you miss. Especially as a shooter. You also don't take into account he has been double teamed almost every game he has played this season. This skews the numbers greatly.
3. Don't post "leader stats" as they are as meaningless as PER. According to EFG% records Kendrick Perkins is one of the greatest shooters of all time. He averages 6 points a game and couldn't score his way out of a pre-school basketball game.
Your biggest problem is you don't watch games. You just don't. You look at numbers and expect them to tell the entire story. They never do. You don't take into account factors that don't have statistics. You don't take into account systems, team-mates, role or any of the other aspects of basketball that don't appear as concrete numbers. All your arguments are based 100 percent on statistic, in which case, we may as well take Early Boykins over John Wall since his PER is higher.
Bargs is a good(not great or anything above that) offensive big. He isn't the best shooter, but his all around range for a 7 foot player, is great. The problem is he is forced to play out of position, he gets double teamed ever single night, he is handed the ball WAY to often, and most of the plays drawn up for him put him in awkward positions to score. Two hands in your face instead of one or none don't show up next to TS%. Being forced by your incompetent coach to take an ISO at the three point line as a 7 foot center, doesn't factor into EFG%
If you watch the games you see him drop 20+ on elite big man defenders, and destroy bad defenders. His problem is he consistently, night after night after night gets raped by the other team. He also can't rebound for shit. So whatever he does on the offensive end, is worthless. The Raptors need a defensive anchor at center, to allow Amir and Davis to grow.
Andrea is still developing. If he can go to a team that could teach him to pull down a couple more rebounds a game, and be just an average defender, he will help them. Otherwise, he will forever be fucking worthless and not worth having on your team.
benjipwns
Banned
Not surprising at all, maybe even a reason the honor code even continues to exist as it does.
I think an outright honor code enforcement would self-enforce on who recruits there so no issue. The anecdotes suck though.
I agree with this, if there weren't issues with who gets impacted I wouldn't criticize. But if they single out certain "types" that's no good.Duki said:
I think an outright honor code enforcement would self-enforce on who recruits there so no issue. The anecdotes suck though.
Don't want to hate on the rest of your analysis, but just want to point out here that eFG% includes three pointers as their equivalent point value. So 33% threes is treated as 50% in eFG%.Blackface said:
Dominican Power
Member
I don't know what black player would want to go to BYU
Currently reading this NBA Playbook site, it is basically a guy who analyzes game down to a tee. He knows his stuff, highly recommend his work.
He has detailed previews for all the 1st round match-ups now.
He has detailed previews for all the 1st round match-ups now.
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