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[diehard]

Noone was scared of Malone

How old are you, were you even alive back when Malone was beasting? Malone was great on defense too.

 

[Jamesfrom818]

Noone was scared of Malone, especially in the playoffs. They were scared of the Stockton/Malone pick and roll. Obviously you can't compare players in a vacuum but to me that's an important distinction.

I'm not going to play the "if Dirk had Nash his entire career" card but the fact that Dirk is terrifying teams when he's playing with zombie-Kidd and Jason Terry speaks volumes. Malone always got his and was incredibly consistent but I dont think he was feared by a team up 10 in the 4th the way Dirk is.

Perhaps "by a fair margin" is a bit of hyperbole and if youre looking at career accomplishments then obviously Karl shades him but if Dirk wins a chip, I think he pulls away.

Horry was

 

[THRILLH0]

How old are you, were you even alive back when Malone was beasting? Malone was great on defense too.

Stockton and Malone were a package deal. I get that its perhaps unfair to diminish what he did because of that but his game was so dependent on the delivery from Stockton that to me, it's ever so slightly less impressive than Dirk's ability to catch fire on his own.

Fair point about the defense. Dirk has improved to the point he's no longer a turnstile but Mailman wins that one.

 

[giri]

The trade machine really needs to allow more than four teams. And let you turn on/off the various non-salary restrictions. (Especially since the season is over.)

Earlier in the year you could do things like trade Yao's contract for the entire Clippers/Kings roster outside of their top two contracts.

yeah i went to edit your trade, or replicate it and add a 5th, but couldn't. And some of the restrictions are already out of date too. Annoying.

Everyone wanting Bynum to get hurt, this video can be your methadone until it happens (and it will).

Bynum knee injury

I joked about it, but i would never genuinely want it to happen. Injuries fuck the fans over more than anything else. Well, ok, second behind Stern.

And we could use the 3 pt shooting.

You say that like it would be an acomplishment. If you guys snagged JJ redick, he'd be starting instead of fisher.

Pl
1. no one knows the reason.

2. uh, Kidd and Nowitzki are not Hall of Famers?

3. game 6 '08 was far more humiliating.

Hang on, slow down. The Kidd that is playing now isn't the same one that earned his way into the HoF. He's not fisher or anything, but lets not get carried away.

Hey now, Trade Machine heals all wounds: http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=3vzbns8

Most fun team you have posted.

 

[diehard]

Horry was

David Robinson was Malone's personal bitch.

 

[Future PhaZe]

 

[benjipwns]

Noone was scared of Malone, especially in the playoffs.

Don't want to pile on, and I already illustrated his primes during the regular season, but Malone from 91-98 averaged 27.1/11.4/3.3 per game in the playoffs.

Has he had bad games? Of course, everyone does. As noted tonight, Dirk is an elite class because he's at 26/11 in the playoffs despite no titles.

You don't do it alone. Everyone has bad games. Even Jordan has some pretty bad playoff games, in particular a pair late in the 1996 Finals. Nobody gives a shit though because they properly evaluate his full history.

http://i53.tinypic.com/2jcdefm.png

Nine wins? We've been talking 30+ all night!

 

[Black Mamba]

There's no doubt in my mind Malone would be even better going against zone defense...

I'm of the belief that big men had it easier before the 00s and perimeter players have it much easier, now.

For that reason, we will probably never agree on this point.

 

[THRILLH0]

Well shit, if the Lakers get Mike "championship piece" Miller it's over.

Benji I see your point and there is a degree of revisionist history to my views on Malone because we know how his career turned out and the failures get most of the pub.

If Dirk never gets over the hump then I'm sure my opinion on him will evolve too. I guess you can't go wrong with either of them though.

And diehard there's no hate here. I know I've called Malone overrated in the past but the realtalk is that Duncan is the only guy i'd take over him without a debate.

 

[giri]

Serious Question, does Pau make it to the HoF?

Presume he does nothing else the rest of his career.

I say, probably not.

 

[Zep]

I'm of the belief that big men had it easier before the 00s and perimeter players have it much easier, now.

For that reason, we will probably never agree on this point.

I just don't think a zone would faze such a great mid-range jumpshooter.

 

[benjipwns]

Benji I see your point and there is a degree of revisionist history to my views on Malone because we know how his career turned out and the failures get most of the pub.

If Dirk never gets over the hump then I'm sure my opinion on him will evolve too. I guess you can't go wrong with either of them though.

I think Dirk is great, it's why I posted above about all the great tier PFs, they're really hard to separate in my opinion. And only Duncan has won anything out of them in his prime. But there's aspects to all of them that go beyond just winning titles.

KG toiled in Minnesota and was incredible, Dirk has done the same for Dallas. Barkley was ungodly despite being 6-4. Malone was one of the best at his position for well over a decade. Duncan dominated defensively and was great on offense too.

Which of these guys you take in a hypothetical situation probably is more situational than anything. If you're starting from scratch you probably take Duncan just because, but if you have something in place and get to pick which one you have. Then it really depends on what you have. If you have other offense like the Celtics you likely lean towards KG or Duncan, if you need offense then you look at Barkley, Dirk and Malone more. And so on.

But yeah the peaks and valleys get more attention than anything in a players career.

 

[ph33nix]

Having a ring is overrated for a dude's career anyways. I know this was a strangely bad playoffs for Pau, but after he won a title you heard the Pau>Dirk stuff...and you definitely wouldn't have heard that talk if Pau didn't win a title.

 

[Puddles]

Real question: if the refs had called that foul on Kidd at the end of Game 1 and Kobe had won it for the Lakers, would have Mavs have won the next four straight to finish it in 5, or would the Lakers have had a chance in the series?

 

[etiolate]

Laker fans really don't want to start dabbling in hypothetical ref calls.

 

[Puddles]

Laker fans really don't want to start dabbling in hypothetical ref calls.

If Webber doesn't blow out his knee, do the Kings win a title in 03?

 

[Black Mamba]

I just don't think a zone would faze such a great mid-range jumpshooter.

Faze him? Definitely not. But people forget how illegal defense changed things. If you doubled, you had to hard double. No fakes or shows.

I mean, Malone is a HOF dude no matter what. I just think with the new rules, Malone would have less scoring opportunities because perimeter players use the ball more and you can deny entry passes a lot easier. More a reflection of things around malone than Malone himself. Or to switch it up, Dirk would be even better if he played in malone's time.

Serious Question, does Pau make it to the HoF?

Presume he does nothing else the rest of his career.

I say, probably not.

Yes, easily, because it's not an NBA Hall of Fame. 4 time all-star. Rookie of the Year. 2 time NBA champion, 3 Finals appearances as a legit #2 and 2 time all-NBA. And that's just NBA. He won a silver medal in the Olympics as the best player, won MVP of Eurobasket and title, MVP of the 2006 World Championships and title, Multiple Euro and FIBA Europe player of the year awards, under 18 and 19 FIBA Euro and World titles.

Even if he never won a title in LA, he had a damn good case for making the HoF based on international stuff. Again, it's not an NBA Hall of Fame. Right now, he is a lock IMO.

 

[etiolate]

Probably, with a chance to repeat. Or that should have been their repeat. Shit happens, but for some reason the established franchises always manage to survive all the little mishaps.

 

[Puddles]

If CrystalGemini isn't his girlfriend, does etiolate troll Muse harder than BrandNew does?

In the same scenario, does etiolate also eat Hot Pockets regularly since there's no one to cook for him?

 

[Branduil]

If CrystalGemini isn't his girlfriend, does etiolate troll Muse harder than BrandNew does?

In the same scenario, does etiolate also eat Hot Pockets regularly since there's no one to cook for him?

His?

 

[benjipwns]

If Webber doesn't blow out his knee, do the Kings win a title in 03?

If Webber doesn't come back in 2004, get forced into his old role and thus kill off their offense do they win a title?

 

[Puddles]

His?

There you are.

Congrats on your team's playoff win. I'm sure the night of joyful self-mutilation and masturbation at Casa Branduil was one for the ages.

 

[THRILLH0]

Having a ring is overrated for a dude's career anyways. I know this was a strangely bad playoffs for Pau, but after he won a title you heard the Pau>Dirk stuff...and you definitely wouldn't have heard that talk if Pau didn't win a title.

I have to disagree. In a 5-man game when you're on court for 90% of the game I think it's more than fair to use rings as a significant measure of a player's overall quality/career/value.

You get the odd anomaly both ways when you look at guys like Horry or Kidd but when you drill down into their careers I think you usually find that great players with a bare cupboard are usually either known for coming up small under pressure or were outshone during their era by superior players.

Sure in the afterglow of a championship the weight of a ring can be overstated (the Pau > Dirk talk was folly) but in general I think they're a pretty good barometer.

It's an extreme example but when you read analysese of Russell and Wilt's careers, even though Wilt crushed Russell in the box score, Russell comes out on top in every other way.

 

[Boombloxer]

Perhaps more than anything, the notion that Pau Gasol can be this team's next great leader was swept away. His sudden and odd postseason disappearance was the most obvious reason for the Lakers' troubles, his fall completed Sunday when he scored 10 points while being pushed around by everyone but his coach, who thankfully refrained from hitting him for a second consecutive game.

"I have to learn from this," Gasol said. ''I have to learn that when something happens off the court, you have to keep it off the court."

He was referring to the report that he stopped talking to Bryant during the postseason because Bryant's wife, Vanessa, had contributed to the breakup of Gasol and his longtime girlfriend. Lakers fans will remember that Karl Malone once publicly accused Vanessa of interfering with his personal life in a similar fashion.

Whatever was happening, Bryant and Gasol haven't connected on the court in a month, and the Lakers have been lost without the strength of their fusion.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/columnists/la-sp-plaschke-lakers-20110509,0,342841,full.column

fuck mrs. kobe

Posted something similar yesterday, but confirming this now? smh

Like I said, you'd think 2 rings and 3 trips to the Finals, not to mention a 70% win percentage would mean more than that.

That's a C'mon Son moment if I ever saw one.

Let me say this again:

I DON'T GIVE A FUCK WHAT IT WAS.

If someone was dead or dying, fine.

If your girl left you/cheated whatever...you lock in an play ball man.

No shit! Really, Gasol? You should forget about your break-up problems when it's time to go for a 3-peat? It took you the most humiliating playoff loss for the Lakers in 12 years for you to learn that?

Pau again denied it had anything to do with Kobe or his wife. As did Kobe.

These off the court issues are unknown. Maybe she cheated on him with some random dude. I mean, I agree he should play through this if it's something like that, but he DENIED the internet rumors. Platchke took the quote out of context and added his own. Don't be fooled by that hack.

No one who knows the Lakers has taken Plashcke seriously for at least 12 years, and yes, his articles by and large are trash. However, there's something else going on, even if it wasn't that, the bottom line is he let it affect him so much mentally that he couldn't play basketball and it, along with Dallas, killed us.

Now, should he be traded? Eh, not sure. Despite this season, he's still been a beast, and even though I'm disappointed, nothing less than D12 would convince me to move him. I will say that Kobe needs to get whatever surgery and rest he needs for 2012.

I honestly have no idea who will win now.

 

[benjipwns]

In a 5-man game when you're on court for 90% of the game I think it's more than fair to use rings as a significant measure of a player's overall quality/career/value.

So .9*.1 then?

 

[etiolate]

If CrystalGemini isn't his girlfriend, does etiolate troll Muse harder than BrandNew does?

In the same scenario, does etiolate also eat Hot Pockets regularly since there's no one to cook for him?

I can't tell who you're pretending I am anymore.

Anyways, that Kings squad was stacked.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAC/2003.html

10 Mike Bibby G 6-1 190 May 13, 1978 4 University of Arizona
13 Doug Christie G-F 6-6 200 May 9, 1970 10 Pepperdine University
7 Keon Clark F 6-11 220 April 16, 1975 4 University of Nevada, Las Vegas
8 Mateen Cleaves G 6-2 205 September 7, 1977 2 Michigan State University
21 Vlade Divac C 7-1 243 February 3, 1968 13
51 Lawrence Funderburke F 6-9 230 December 15, 1970 5 Ohio State University
24 Bobby Jackson G 6-1 185 March 13, 1973 5 University of Minnesota
22 Jim Jackson G 6-6 220 October 14, 1970 10 Ohio State University
9 Damon Jones G 6-3 185 August 25, 1976 4 University of Houston
31 Scot Pollard C 6-11 265 February 12, 1975 5 University of Kansas
16 Peja Stojakovic F-G 6-9 220 June 9, 1977 4
5 Hedo Turkoglu F 6-10 220 March 19, 1979 2
3 Gerald Wallace F 6-7 215 July 23, 1982 1 University of Alabama
4 Chris Webber F-C 6-9 245 March 1, 1973 9 University of Michigan

 

[benjipwns]

Should have cut Cleaves from the copy-paste.

 

[Blackface]

I can't tell who you're pretending I am anymore.

Anyways, that Kings squad was stacked.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAC/2003.html

10 Mike Bibby G 6-1 190 May 13, 1978 4 University of Arizona
13 Doug Christie G-F 6-6 200 May 9, 1970 10 Pepperdine University
7 Keon Clark F 6-11 220 April 16, 1975 4 University of Nevada, Las Vegas
8 Mateen Cleaves G 6-2 205 September 7, 1977 2 Michigan State University
21 Vlade Divac C 7-1 243 February 3, 1968 13
51 Lawrence Funderburke F 6-9 230 December 15, 1970 5 Ohio State University
24 Bobby Jackson G 6-1 185 March 13, 1973 5 University of Minnesota
22 Jim Jackson G 6-6 220 October 14, 1970 10 Ohio State University
9 Damon Jones G 6-3 185 August 25, 1976 4 University of Houston
31 Scot Pollard C 6-11 265 February 12, 1975 5 University of Kansas
16 Peja Stojakovic F-G 6-9 220 June 9, 1977 4
5 Hedo Turkoglu F 6-10 220 March 19, 1979 2
3 Gerald Wallace F 6-7 215 July 23, 1982 1 University of Alabama
4 Chris Webber F-C 6-9 245 March 1, 1973 9 University of Michigan

Keon Clark = biggest waste of talent in NBA history.

 

[etiolate]

Should have cut Cleaves from the copy-paste.

Someone had to cheer from the bench.

 

[soundscream]

Let me say this again:

I DON'T GIVE A FUCK WHAT IT WAS.

If someone was dead or dying, fine.

If your girl left you/cheated whatever...you lock in an play ball man.

How long was the relationship?

If it was a long one and he had no intention of ending it that can fuck you up man.

Its easy to say man up and get over it, but basketball is his job, and a relationship is part of his life.

 

[Blackface]

I love how ESPN is making jokes about how many painkillers Rondo is on.

Yet if an NBA player smokes a little weed they get suspended.

 

[giri]

Yes, easily, because it's not an NBA Hall of Fame. 4 time all-star. Rookie of the Year. 2 time NBA champion, 3 Finals appearances as a legit #2 and 2 time all-NBA. And that's just NBA. He won a silver medal in the Olympics as the best player, won MVP of Eurobasket and title, MVP of the 2006 World Championships and title, Multiple Euro and FIBA Europe player of the year awards, under 18 and 19 FIBA Euro and World titles.

Even if he never won a title in LA, he had a damn good case for making the HoF based on international stuff. Again, it's not an NBA Hall of Fame. Right now, he is a lock IMO.

Easily? It's a stronger case than vince, but not overly convincing. There's many other PF's that have to get in before him Too. TD, KG, Dirk. And best gasol too.

 

[Blackface]

Vince Carter is as deserving to make the HOF as Pau Gasol is. Vince in his prime was one of the best players in the world. He could have ended up as good as Kobe if not for his first devastating injury that he never really recovered from. There really was nothing a young Kobe could do a young Vince couldn't.

I wonder sometimes what would have happened if Vince ended up a good team that could content for a championship. Oh well, it is what it is.

 

[Black Mamba]

How is it not overly convincing? How many players have a better resume? Not one that isn't a HOF lock.

Yes, KG, TD, and Dirk deserve to be in no questions asked as well. But how does that diminish Pau?

It's not an NBA Hall of Fame. There are lesser players in the HoF than Pau. If this was an NBA only HoF, then I think it would be a totally difference conversation.

Vince Carter is as deserving to make the HOF as Pau Gasol is. Vince in his prime was one of the best players in the world. He could have ended up as good as Kobe if not for his first devastating injury that he never really recovered from. There really was nothing a young Kobe could do a young Vince couldn't.

I wonder sometimes what would have happened if Vince ended up a good team that could content for a championship. Oh well, it is what it is.

Vince lacked heart and desire, even though he was way more physically gifted than Kobe. Give Kobe Vince's athleticism and Kobe could seriously have made a run at Michael.

Vince is not as deserving as Pau. He has a case no doubt, but I don't see how what he's done overshadows all of Pau's European accolades.

 

[Zep]

Vince Carter is as deserving to make the HOF as Pau Gasol is. Vince in his prime was one of the best players in the world. He could have ended up as good as Kobe if not for his first devastating injury that he never really recovered from. There really was nothing a young Kobe could do a young Vince couldn't.

I wonder sometimes what would have happened if Vince ended up a good team that could content for a championship. Oh well, it is what it is.

Vince never recovered because he allowed himself to get flabby and become a jumpshooter.

 

[Blackface]

How is it not overly convincing? How many players have a better resume? Not one that isn't a HOF lock.

Yes, KG, TD, and Dirk deserve to be in no questions asked as well. But how does that diminish Pau?

It's not an NBA Hall of Fame. There are lesser players in the HoF than Pau. If this was an NBA only HoF, then I think it would be a totally difference conversation.

Pau would be one of the weakest HOF candidates of all time if he made it. He was never the best at his position, and arguably was not even top 3.

He was a good PF that fit a need the Lakers needed for a couple seasons.

He will probably make HOF eventually though, simply due to the championships.

 

[Black Mamba]

Pau would be one of the weakest HOF candidates of all time if he made it. He was never the best at his position, and arguably was not even top 3.

He was a good PF that fit a need the Lakers needed for a couple seasons.

He will probably make HOF eventually though, simply due to the championships.

Dude, he won Euro player of the year 7 times. You're comparing him strictly to the NBA, but the Hall of Fame is an international thing. How does a multiple MVP winner, champion in Europe, World, and NBA, Rookie of the Year, and Multiple Player of the year winner from Europe NOT get in the HoF? Are we suddenly going to ignore non-NBA stuff?

You want to bring up a hypothetical NBA HOF, fine. But it ain't, so play by the rules.

 

[etiolate]

If Pau is HoF then a guy like Vlade Divac is HoF

Yes, all Kings posts tonight.

 

[Blackface]

How is it not overly convincing? How many players have a better resume? Not one that isn't a HOF lock.

Yes, KG, TD, and Dirk deserve to be in no questions asked as well. But how does that diminish Pau?

It's not an NBA Hall of Fame. There are lesser players in the HoF than Pau. If this was an NBA only HoF, then I think it would be a totally difference conversation.




Vince lacked heart and desire, even though he was way more physically gifted than Kobe. Give Kobe Vince's athleticism and Kobe could seriously have made a run at Michael.

Vince is not as deserving as Pau. He has a case no doubt, but I don't see how what he's done overshadows all of Pau's European accolades.

I never liked how people say vince had no heart or desire.

I have never seen a player play harder or care as much about winning as Vince did with the Raptors. This changed when he lost his ability to attack the basket due to injuries. But a young Vince literally changed the landscape of the NBA. His heart and desire was up there with Kobe and MJ in the early days.

There was a documentary on him done years ago. They talked to HOF'ers, players, coach's. They all said Vince changed the way players attack the basket. That the way bigmen in the NBA play the paint against guards changed due to Carter. You couldn't just stand there and try to block the shot any more.

He doesn't have a ton of accolades, and that's mainly due to the teams he was on. He was never on a great team or had great talent around him. He injured himself because he was doing to much with to little. If he was on a contender like Kobe, he would have had at least one MVP if not two. He had the skill and tools, but never ended up with a franchise that built around him properly. He came close with the Nets, but thats about it.

Hell, he even led the US Olympic team to a gold-medal. I have never seen a player dominate foreign competition like Carter did. He was a monster. Everyone shared the ball, so his numbers were not gaudy, but he was the leader of the team. Something that says alot considering a prime KG was playing along side him .

Vince has as much of a case as Pau. Pau is only even talked about because he won two championships with LA. Pau is a good player, Vince was an elite, great player. If you replaced Kobe with Vince in the Shaq era, he would have championships also.

I don't like looking at championships as the end all be all for players who were not the leader of a team when they were won. Yes they are earned by a team, but outside of the Leader, many times the others are replaceable. You have to go back to guys like Pippen to find non-replaceable second options.

Pau will make the HOF due to his Euro accolades. But when he came to the NBA, he couldn't even produce numbers liek Chris Bosh, on equally shitty teams. And nobody in their right mind thinks Bosh is a HOF'er.

I don't look at Euro awards for the simple fact North American players don't have a shot at them. If you took young Vince and put him in the Euro leagues he would have been arguably the greatest player to ever play there.

That said, yes they do matter, and yes he will be a HOF'er b/c of that.

 

[Black Mamba]

If Pau is HoF then a guy like Vlade Divac is HoF

Yes, all Kings posts tonight.

 

[Blackace]

Vince Carter said himself that he didn't try as hard in Tor...

So yeah..

Also he had some fairly good teams in NJ and Orl...

 

[Zep]

John Thompson: Did you always give 100%

Vince: No

/end

Wade is an example of how you bounce back from multiple major surgeries and go back to dominating...Arenas and Vince are the exact opposite.

 

[teruterubozu]

With Phil and Sloan gone, and probably Popovich & Rivers soon, the NBA is officially becoming a new league. I think I'm too old for this shit now.

 

[Blackace]

With Phil and Sloan gone, and probably Popovich & Rivers soon, the NBA is officially becoming a new league. I think I'm too old for this shit now.

Doc aint going anywhere anytime soon.. I think he might be Magic bound..

 

[teruterubozu]

Doc aint going anywhere anytime soon.. I think he might be Magic bound..

With no Dwight? No way.

 

[Blackace]

With no Dwight? No way.

D12 most likely will stay...

 

[RobotChant]

Seeing reactions from the home crowd, every female Utah fan wants to fuck him.

Why limit this to just the females. Reading this thread it's obvious even male Utah fans would let Hayward go to the hole every time.

 

[etiolate]

http://i43.tinypic.com/15yhpwn.jpg

If we're counting international play, the man is already in the FIBA HoF and one of the legendary international players. Went to the playoffs on three different teams and is one of the greatest passing centers to ever play.

Divac is one of six players in NBA history to record 13,000 points, 9,000 rebounds, 3,000 assists and 1,500 blocked shots, along with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'Neal, Kevin Garnett and Hakeem Olajuwon.[2] (The NBA hasn't always kept track of blocked shots, so some other players, such as Bill Russell, probably also had similar career achievements.) Divac is also the only NBA player born and trained outside of the United States to play in over 1,000 games in the NBA. On August 20, 2010, Divac was inducted into the FIBA Hall of Fame in recognition of his play in international competition.[3]

 

[Duki]

u ignant

 

[Black Mamba]

If we're counting international play, the man is already in the FIBA HoF and one of the legendary international players. Went to the playoffs on three different teams and is one of the greatest passing centers to ever play.

Pau is going to eclipse Vlade in every one of those categories and much sooner. he's done 13k points already.

Vlade's best season was 16-10-4-2. Pau did that with 20ppg. And with better FG% and FT%.

I'll admit Vlade has a case because of where he comes from, but his NBA career has really already been eclipsed by Pau Gasol. Plus Vlade never made an all-NBA team and I don't think he's ever been player of the month, either. And he has just 1 European player of the year awards. Truly, this accolade comparison isn't close.

Pau's career has already been better than Vlade's.

Now, a cigar smoking hall of fame...