Support NeoGAF

[Black Mamba]

I don't want to beat a dead horse here but what the hell is up with people saying they need to make a rule change for the hack a shaq/dwight

They did make a rule change by implementing the 2 minute rule how much more catering does a professional player need?

But he was right that at the end of the day defense was the biggest problem and it will continue to be if lakers commit so many turnovers and refuse to guard the perimeter.

It makes the game boring from an unnatural aspect. It's bad enough we have to tolerate it the final 30-40 seconds because it's the only way a team can get back in it, but to have to watch it during other parts of the game is unbearable. I want to watch them play, not shoot FTs from intentional fouls.

I complained about this when teams did it to Splitter in the playoffs last year, too. Has nothing to do with the team/player. It's just not fun to watch so get rid of it.


Half court defense has largely been okay. Those turnovers are killing their defense, though. Lakers TO rate is insane. They have no chance of doing anything if they don't fix that. OKC overcame it last year but they only did so by being the #1 FT shooting team by percentage and attempts. Lakers don't have that luxury.

 

[Pkaz01]

It makes the game boring from an unnatural aspect. It's bad enough we have to tolerate it the final 30-40 seconds because it's the only way a team can get back in it, but to have to watch it during other parts of the game is unbearable. I want to watch them play, not shoot FTs from intentional fouls.

I disagree its part of the game and its a competitive strategy thats respectable. I get interested in seeing if it will work or not and its great to get a kick out of it when it doesn't. Looking at this thread i'm not the only one. Even when they did it to shaq on the suns I would try and see how itll play out.

I don't like it when refs call tick tacky fouls because that interrupts the game for no reason, but when its a strategy I find it fascinating and respect the logic behind it.

 

[Black Mamba]

I disagree its part of the game and its a competitive strategy thats respectable. I get interested in seeing if it will work or not and its great to get a kick out of it when it doesn't. Looking at this thread i'm not the only one. Even when they did it to shaq on the suns I would try and see how itll play out.

I don't like it when refs call tick tacky fouls because that interrupts the game for no reason, but when its a strategy I find it fascinating and respect the logic behind it.

"part of the game" and "competitive strategy" arguments are circular. Of course they are a part of the game because they are not against the rules. Same with it being a strategy. If it's within the rules, it's a strategy.

You're argument is "it should exist because it already exists."

Now, if you enjoy teams having that option as a strategy and enjoy watching FTs instead of the best players in the world making plays, then you can have that argument. But I fundamentally disagree.

My argument isn't that it's "not part of the game." Mine is that it's fucking boring and I don't like seeing it. That 1 minute or so became like 10. FTs are like the XP of football. Boring as fuck. They have their place in the game for obvious reasons, but I'd like to cut down on them as much as possible.

We're lucky that there are so few actual good NBA players who suck bad enough at FTs to use the strategy. Imagine a world where many good players shot below 50%FT and this was a strategy used on most teams every night? The game would suck.

Maybe one time this year we'll get a Dwight vs Splitter FT-off for 2 min of gametime which is 20 real time. Can't wait!


edit: it's also interesting to see the same people who hate watching the Thunder play last couple years because it's a FT-fest now come out and love watching Dwight shoot FTs...

 

[WesternHeretic]

It makes the game boring from an unnatural aspect. It's bad enough we have to tolerate it the final 30-40 seconds because it's the only way a team can get back in it, but to have to watch it during other parts of the game is unbearable. I want to watch them play, not shoot FTs from intentional fouls.

I complained about this when teams did it to Splitter in the playoffs last year, too. Has nothing to do with the team/player. It's just not fun to watch so get rid of it.


Half court defense has largely been okay. Those turnovers are killing their defense, though. Lakers TO rate is insane. They have no chance of doing anything if they don't fix that. OKC overcame it last year but they only did so by being the #1 FT shooting team by percentage and attempts. Lakers don't have that luxury.

Could just you know... bench that player (Dwight, Splitter, Shaq, Rodman, Ben Wallace etc..). Clearly the other team has found a weakness in their opponent and instead of correcting your weakness you want to bend the rules. Talk about teaching the viewers a great life lesson.

You don't see boxers telling his South Paw opponent "you can't punch with your left hand." At the end of the day it's up to you to correct your weakness. Without struggle there's no progress.

 

[Black Mamba]

Could just you know... bench that player (Dwight, Splitter, Shaq, Rodman, Ben Wallace etc..). Clearly the other team has found a weakness in their opponent and instead of correcting your weakness you want to bend the rules. Talk about teaching the viewers a great life lesson.

You don't see boxers telling his South Paw opponent "you can't punch with your left hand." At the end of the day it's up to you to correct your weakness. Without struggle there's no progress.

So your response is to bench the player so that as fans we don't see the best players competing as much as they should.

I watch the NBA for a specific purpose and it's also why I rarely watch college and don't watch HS or anything else. I want to see the best in the world compete in action.

Why not give teams the option to take it out of bounds rather than shoot FTs until the final 2 minutes? You know, how in the NFL you can decline a penalty? Sure, it's a rule change, but one that makes sense. Let teams decide how they want to score their points.


The NBA could create new rules to make all new weaknesses arise for strategy purposes. Why not?

I'd like to see a few things added to the NBA rules/game to make the play more enjoyable for fans. This is one.

edit: And let me repeat, the Lakers didn't lose because of it. They lost from turnovers and defensive rebounding. Dwight went 5/10. It fucked their flow up, but it didn't cost them the game. It's not even a good strategy really, even at 50% FT%. My argument has nothing to do with it as it's almost never even a smart strategy (tonight it was okay). It's just fucking awful to watch.

 

[reilo]

yo... you doing too much

hahahahaa

 

[fertygo]

LMAO, Lakers fans being stupid.. Love it. This hacking thing not stopping Shaq or Big Ben winning.

 

[KingJ2002]

The 19 turnovers cost the lakers the game.

Watching teams employ the hack-a-"___" tactic is terrible to watch. I would love to see a set limit on intentional fouls or yeah... decline the free throws to inbound the ball. It would allow the players to play the game the way it was meant to be played.

 

[Trey]

The 19 turnovers cost the lakers the game.

Watching teams employ the hack-a-"___" tactic is terrible to watch. I would love to see a set limit on intentional fouls or yeah... decline the free throws to inbound the ball. It would allow the players to play the game the way it was meant to be played.

Tell them to learn how to shoot free throws.

 

[linsivvi]

The 19 turnovers cost the lakers the game.

Watching teams employ the hack-a-"___" tactic is terrible to watch. I would love to see a set limit on intentional fouls or yeah... decline the free throws to inbound the ball. It would allow the players to play the game the way it was meant to be played.

There's a limit: You can't do it in the last 2 minutes of the game.

They had a choice to either take Dwight out or ask him to suck it up. They kept him in and Howard ended up making 5 out of 10 free throws during that period. It didn't cost them the game.

Turnover and offensive rebounds hurt them but also didn't cost them the game. The Rockets missed 63 shots, they are bound to get more offensive rebounds. The Lakers still out-rebounded them overall. They lost because they fucking relaxed in the 4th quarter and all of a sudden the Rockets started making shots and they couldn't turn the defense back on.

The Rockets shot 38% for the game. Defense wasn't the problem. Mentally checking out the game thinking they've already won was.

 

[cuevas. PhD.]

If you wanna crown their asses crown em

 

[Emwitus]

Hahaha at wanting a rule change....how about Dwight gets in the gym and does something about it. Seriously....its not even the reason the lakers lost. Some guy that won't be mentioned and losing guys on defense was the issue.

 

[ph33nix]

while we are at rule changes i think if a player was open for a three and misses he should get one point just for taking a good shot

i mean golly the heat would've won yesterday if that was the case, we should be promoting beautiful basketball

 

[darkside31337]

while we are at rule changes i think if a player was open for a three and misses he should get one point just for taking a good shot

i mean golly the heat would've won yesterday if that was the case, we should be promoting beautiful basketball

Well shit Ryan Anderson would be averaging 22 points per game with this change so I approve.

Also lol Dwight. Fucking joke.

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

So your response is to bench the player so that as fans we don't see the best players competing as much as they should.

I like how your response is to change the rules of the game rather than making one of your players learn basic-ass grade school shit like shooting a free throw. Not that Laker fans have an absurd sense of entitlement or anything.

 

[iamshadowlark]

while we are at rule changes i think if a player was open for a three and misses he should get one point just for taking a good shot

i mean golly the heat would've won yesterday if that was the case, we should be promoting beautiful basketball

I wouldn't mind. Everytime Lebron passes in the clutch, he should get two points for making the right play.

Also, lmao at banning Hack-A___. Laker clowns.

 

[KingGondo]

This has been an entertaining season so far.

 

[jobber]

The NBA is going to add a 4 point shot if you shoot the ball from beyond half court.

 

[Vahagn]

There's a limit: You can't do it in the last 2 minutes of the game.

They had a choice to either take Dwight out or ask him to suck it up. They kept him in and Howard ended up making 5 out of 10 free throws during that period. It didn't cost them the game.

Turnover and offensive rebounds hurt them but also didn't cost them the game. The Rockets missed 63 shots, they are bound to get more offensive rebounds. The Lakers still out-rebounded them overall. They lost because they fucking relaxed in the 4th quarter and all of a sudden the Rockets started making shots and they couldn't turn the defense back on.

The Rockets shot 38% for the game. Defense wasn't the problem. Mentally checking out the game thinking they've already won was.

If you foul Dwight every time he touches the ball, you get a lot more possessions on the offensive side of the ball, more possessions equals more shot attempts and more points scored. That equals bigger strain on the opposing defense. If Dwight goes 5-10 on Hack-A-Dwight non 3 point play scenarios - that means he uses up 5 Laker possessions to score 5 points. I don't know about you, but if Orlando or Houston doesn't have to play any defense, gets to rest for 40 seconds to a minute in real time in between every one of their 5 offensive sequences while Dwight is shooting FT's...I'm pretty sure that they and any NBA team can score more than 5 points in 5 offensive possessions which will only knock a 1:00 or a 1:20 off the game clock. That seems like a really effective way to make up a lead in the fourth quarter.


I think the most important element of the Hack-A-XXXX strategy when you're team is down with 4-5 minutes left in the fourth quarter is that it gives you a high volume of offensive possessions in a short period of time. If you only take 2 seconds off the clock before you foul each of 5 times, that's 10 total seconds. If it takes you an average of 17 seconds to get a shot up or get fouled you've essentially gotten 5 offensive possessions in 1:35. Without fouling and the same 17 second clip going both ways, the team that's down would need 2:50 seconds to get 5 offensive possessions up...basically twice as much time.


Think of it like this, you know how in the final 30 seconds of a close game the team that's down will just foul the first available player to extend the game? Well, you get to do that, except instead of sending Ray Allen or Kobe or Nash to the foul line, you get to send Dwight Howard there. That would make it much easier for a team that's down 4 with a minute left to win the game than if they had to settle for fouling Nash or Dirk etc.


It's a brilliant strategy, and dramatically improves your chances of winning vs. the alternative.

 

[Adam Blade]

Piddles and Cries.

 

[bud23]

True. It's just a shame since it's such an easy shot to master. Pure repetition. I went from being a 55% FT shooter as a freshman to right under 80% as a sophomore. All I did was shoot ~100 a day. And I wasn't getting paid millions like Dwight Howard.

Why so hate on Howard? Dammit, he is just trying to emulate his hero, the great Chuck Hayes.

Like the Kobe´s mirror is Jordan, Howard´s example is Hayes.

I think we shouldn´t blame to Dwight just by this, he is putting a lot of effort trying to be like Hayes and judging by his percentages, he is in the right way.

With a bit of luck, we will see to Howard doing things like this soon...Dwight, yes you can!!

 

[Grimm Fandango]

hahahahaa

He went full Puddles, man. Never go full Puddles.

 

[h3ro]

The NBA is going to add a 4 point shot if you shoot the ball from beyond half court.

 

[talisayNon]

ROFL I hope all we do is hack Dwight when he comes to the Mecca.

 

[Adam Blade]

y u cast stones

 

[obijkenobi]

The problem with the Spurs is that Duncan can't maintain this amazing pace all season. It's why Pop rests him and Manu. That and Bonner completely disappears during the playoffs. His release had traditionally been too slow. I mean he needs completely wide open space to shoot the 3, and that doesn't happen in the playoffs. Now, if he can quicken his release without losing accuracy....but the dude is in his 30's so I don't know if that can happen.

 

[h3ro]

y u cast stones

no stones

ynb alpha model.

 

[ph33nix]

The Lakers would be better off with Joel Anthony in the 4th. He'll play real pick and roll defense and can at least hit free throws

 

[Smokey]

Chuck Hayes had THE worst free throw form and was garbo from the line. He came back the next season (before going to the kings) with that shit fixed and improved considerably in his ft percentage.

If chuck could do it so could Dwight.. But chuck wasn't an egotistical douche.

 

[Outlaw]

Has this been posted yet? Lakers have Pooped their Big Boy Pants:

http://youtu.be/lTeZ6elLcow

 

[Smokey]

Has this been posted yet? Lakers have Pooped their Big Boy Pants:

http://youtu.be/lTeZ6elLcow

They've been talking and laughing about this all morning on the radio. Ackerman does this a lot, but but this one was great.

 

[Vyer]

Damn it got a little ugly in here last night.

 

[KingKong]

The Lakers would be better off with Joel Anthony in the 4th. He'll play real pick and roll defense and can at least hit free throws

he's probably a better teammate too

 

[linsivvi]

If you foul Dwight every time he touches the ball, you get a lot more possessions on the offensive side of the ball, more possessions equals more shot attempts and more points scored. That equals bigger strain on the opposing defense. If Dwight goes 5-10 on Hack-A-Dwight non 3 point play scenarios - that means he uses up 5 Laker possessions to score 5 points. I don't know about you, but if Orlando or Houston doesn't have to play any defense, gets to rest for 40 seconds to a minute in real time in between every one of their 5 offensive sequences while Dwight is shooting FT's...I'm pretty sure that they and any NBA team can score more than 5 points in 5 offensive possessions which will only knock a 1:00 or a 1:20 off the game clock. That seems like a really effective way to make up a lead in the fourth quarter.


I think the most important element of the Hack-A-XXXX strategy when you're team is down with 4-5 minutes left in the fourth quarter is that it gives you a high volume of offensive possessions in a short period of time. If you only take 2 seconds off the clock before you foul each of 5 times, that's 10 total seconds. If it takes you an average of 17 seconds to get a shot up or get fouled you've essentially gotten 5 offensive possessions in 1:35. Without fouling and the same 17 second clip going both ways, the team that's down would need 2:50 seconds to get 5 offensive possessions up...basically twice as much time.


Think of it like this, you know how in the final 30 seconds of a close game the team that's down will just foul the first available player to extend the game? Well, you get to do that, except instead of sending Ray Allen or Kobe or Nash to the foul line, you get to send Dwight Howard there. That would make it much easier for a team that's down 4 with a minute left to win the game than if they had to settle for fouling Nash or Dirk etc.


It's a brilliant strategy, and dramatically improves your chances of winning vs. the alternative.

You know, he made a reasonable post a few hours before the game...

If Dwight could shoot even 60%, that would push the expected points/100 possessions of intentionally fouling him up to 120 and eliminate it as a viable tactic. The median points for 100 possessions in the NBA is 101.2, which means even 55% would still produce a positive expected win total.

Dwight shot above .590 from the line for seven out of his first eight years in the league. It's really only the last two years that he's been absolutely horrible. 49% last year, 46.5% this year. 59.6% in 2010-11. The Lakers would probably be something like 10-5 if he was shooting 59.6% this year. At the very least they'd be over .500.

It's just simple math. If Dwight can't even make 55% of his free throws, it's on him.

 

[LegendofJoe]

Who's ready for the return of purple and teal in Charlotte?

 

[Vahagn]

You know, he made a reasonable post a few hours before the game...



It's just simple math. If Dwight can't even make 55% of his free throws, it's on him.

That seems silly to me. There's no such actual tangible difference in Hack-A-Dwight scenarios with a guy who shoots 50% versus a guy who shoots 55% in a small sample size of 6-10 FT's.


Out of 6 Dwight would consistently make 3. If he consistently made 4, he'd be a 66% shooter which he's nowhere near.

Out of 8 he'd consistently make 4. If he consistently made 5 he would be a 62.5% FT shooter which he's nowhere near.

Out of 10 he'd consistently make 5. If he consistently made 6 he would be a 60% Ft shooter. So if he was 55%, sometimes he'd make 5 out of 10, and sometimes he'd make 6 out of ten. But the opposition would lengthen the game out and get a boatload more offensive possessions.


If it makes sense to send Dwight to shoot 10 Ft's in the fourth quarter when he can only make 5 of them (50%). It makes equal sense if he makes 6 of them. You're essentially getting twice as many possessions if you employ the Hack-A-Dwight strategy, by using up the entire clock for yourself instead of giving your opponent 24 seconds after every one of your possessions. And if you'd do it by spotting the other team 5 points, you'd do it with a 50/50 chance of spotting them 6 too. That just seems like the logical answer in my worldview.


Edit: The obvious answer is to play a Pau/Jamison front court if the other team goes to Hack a Dwight until the final 2 minutes. Pau is a better low post player, a better offensive player, and a better FT shooter. Jamison spreads the floor and allows the spacing for 3 point shooters, and for Pau to operate. You can do defense/offense substitutions in ultra close games for one or two key stops.

 

[Zeus Molecules]

The Lakers would be better off with Joel Anthony in the 4th. He'll play real pick and roll defense and can at least hit free throws

I never thought anyone would say this let alone it being right but dammit the way shit has been shaping lately who could disagree. Dwight's defensive strength isn't on par with his offensive liability. Also the current Lakers roster isn't designed to compensate for that fact either making the whole thing even worse.

 

[Rodeo Clown]

Who's ready for the return of purple and teal in Charlotte?

I dug out my hat in preparation. I'm counting on you, Jeffrey!

 

[LegendofJoe]

I dug out my hat in preparation. I'm counting on you, Jeffrey!

my man*

*bro fist

 

[iamshadowlark]

All I can remember about the second half of this off-season is being shouted down about how good this roster fits together and how Howard isn't a liability late games, and how OKC had already been dethroned and how keeping Gasol was so huge and.....

 

[ph33nix]

I never thought anyone would say this let alone it being right but dammit the way shit has been shaping lately who could disagree. Dwight's defensive strength isn't on par with his offensive liability. Also the current Lakers roster isn't designed to compensate for that fact either making the whole thing even worse.

Yup, and Shaq made the difference in his shitty FT shooting by being so god damn dominant

All I can remember about the second half of this off-season is being shouted down about how good this roster fits together and how Howard isn't a liability late games, and how OKC had already been dethroned and how keeping Gasol was so huge and.....

you'll so regret these words in may when they're rolling and driving fear into the hearts of all men

 

[linsivvi]

That seems silly to me. There's no such actual tangible difference in Hack-A-Dwight scenarios with a guy who shoots 50% versus a guy who shoots 55% in a small sample size of 6-10 FT's.

You suck at math.

Coaches look at a player's FT shooting percentage before they decide whether intentional fouling a player would give them a better chance of winning. That 8% difference from his 47% is huge in terms of probability. You don't fucking calculate 10 FTs and say hey I can't get to the percentage that I want.

Also, even in your 50% scenario, it's only 1 point per 100 possessions under the league median, which is negligent with only a few minutes left in the game.

In fact, Dwight hitting 5 out of that 10 FTs wasn't a problem at all. The problem was that the Rockets scored 4 out of those 5 possessions for a total of 9 points, when they couldn't score the entire game. The whole team forgot how to play defense and got shell shocked. That's how they lost the game.

 

[iamshadowlark]

Yup, and Shaq made the difference in his shitty FT shooting by being so god damn dominant



you'll so regret these words in may when they're rolling and driving fear into the hearts of all men

I never thought they would be this bad, but I was never sold on this squad becoming something to be scared of. Way too old. I thought they would contend but I was always thinking that OKC would run them off the court. People were claiming that I was trying to downplay them or scared or whatever, but I didn't and I don't see much.

That being said LAL/MIA in the regular season should be fun with our new look no defense style.

 

[theignoramus]

moved across the country, so havnt been keeping up with games the last few days...but Miami lost to Washington? and another loss for LA. Ive missed some comedic gold it looks like.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

The difference between 50% FT shooting and 55% FT shooting in a hack-a-whomever scenario is the same as the difference between the 4th ranked offense in the NBA and the 28th. .1 PPP seems small, but it's pretty gigantic in the NBA.

 

[KingKong]

The difference between 50% FT shooting and 55% FT shooting in a hack-a-whomever scenario is the same as the difference between the 4th ranked offense in the NBA and the 28th. .1 PPP seems small, but it's pretty gigantic in the NBA.

over a large data sample, yes, but not over 3 minutes

Dwight making 6 of 10 free throws means 6 points over 5 possessions with almost no time off the clock, so the only time it would be better than a regular offense is if the Lakers only scored on 2 of 5 possessions

 

[linsivvi]

over a large data sample, yes, but not over 3 minutes

Dwight making 6 of 10 free throws means 6 points over 5 possessions with almost no time off the clock, so the only time it would be better than a regular offense is if the Lakers only scored on 2 of 5 possessions

Are you really downplaying 6 points over 5 possessions? Really? That's equivalent to 120 points per 100 possessions.

OKC is league leader at 113 points per 100 possesions and 120 is not good enough for you?

 

[Truphenom]

Shit, some of Lakers age lost their minds last night, good thing it wasn't everyone lol.

Knicks back in top of the east is nice to see, so thanks OKC and Wizards. Wtf at the Pelican name change tho?

 

[KingKong]

Are you really downplaying 6 points over 5 possessions? Really? That's equivalent to 120 points per 100 possessions.

OKC is league leader at 113 points per 100 possesions and 120 is not good enough for you?

in the last few minutes of the game, if your defense can't stop them, yes. If they're going to score on almost every possession, you have to match them, and Dwight getting slightly over a point per possession is not enough

It's 97 - 93 when they start hacking Dwight, they score 7 on 3, Dwight gets 2 on 3 and its 99-100. Even if Dwight got 4 on 3, it would still have been 101-100

 

[Red Blaster]

Are you really downplaying 6 points over 5 possessions? Really? That's equivalent to 120 points per 100 possessions.

OKC is league leader at 113 points per 100 possesions and 120 is not good enough for you?

Since the Lakers can't get defensive stops it becomes an issue since hacking Dwight takes no time off the clock and the other team gets a fresh possession.